Youth 18" barreled suppresed hunting rifle, what caliber?

[spdrman]

My 9 year old can start hunting big game next year and wanting to build him a rifle. (Plus this is a good excuse to put build a light rifle for my backpacking trips) He has a 260 he shoots very well and plan on using that for deer and antelope. Want something a little bigger for elk and bear though. Was pretty set on a 7saum after some research but thunderbeast recommends a 20" barrel, they do however say a 7wsm will be fine in a 18" barrel as well as 300wsm which I am also considering.

Have a ultra 7 and plan on getting a ultra 9 too so want to the 18" barrel to keep overall length down with a suppressor

Is there other efficient calibers that would work well in that barrel length? Sorry not interested in shooting a elk or bear with 6.5 prc. Would like to stick with 7mm or 30 cal of some sort

Keep debating on building off a tikka action or defiance anTI, plan on putting it in a XLR magnesium chassis, his tikka 260 is in one already and he shoots it well. With another tikka build I was thinking I could swap him stocks and save me a grand over buying another chassis.

Figured there would be more guys on here with experience shooting suppressors and would have some good advice, so how would you build a gun trying to keep it as light and compact as possible but still be efficient

Pic of him shooting his 260

 

[jakelly]

Some thoughts.

First: 7WSM is larger case than a 7SAUM. Barrel length recommendation will be the same, or shorter for the SAUM. If not, it’s a typo.

Second: Are you having a lot of elk and bear walk off after shooting them with the .260? Why do you need a larger round?

Third: Have you thought about your son’s development as a shooter? It can be tough to unlearn a bad habit, and you are following a good recipe for instilling bad fundamentals.

Why don’t you just let the kid shoot the .260 and build what you want?

 

[spdrman]

Really don't want this to turn into a 6.5cm/260 is just fine for elk post, its all about shot placement etc. First 10 years I hunted all I had was a 243, had some not so great experiences with elk. Just this past week my boss had his boy shoot his first elk with 6.5cm, turn and ran just far enough some other hunter's shot it too, he regrets not letting him use his 300 prc in hopes it would of dropped it right there, needless to say his boy didn't take that elk home. Sucks but our guaranteed otc elk tags have a ton of people and that happens more than it should and I dont want to go through that with my boy, honestly it'd probably cost me my job.

Guiding for a few years there was nothing I hated more than tracking wounded bears.

Every time i go to the range I take my 7 and 9 year old, they have a 22-250 shooting 75 eldm's and the 260 they both put several hundred rounds a year through which is way more than your typical hunter. This new rifle isnt going to replace those guns for practicing their fundemtals and long range shooting. I'm going to be the one that makes sure its all dialed in and good to go and I'll let him shoot steel with it a little bit but he's not going to shoot it like he does the 260 or 22-250 where they'll burn through 100 rounds in a range trip

 

[sierracharlie338]

If you just want to stay in the short action I don’t think either of the options you listed are bad.
I’ve been considering a 30-06 with hand loads as an all around rifle.

 

[spdrman]

If you just want to stay in the short action I don’t think either of the options you listed are bad.
I’ve been considering a 30-06 with hand loads as an all around rifle.

280ai and 30-06 where others I was also considering

 

[sierracharlie338]

280ai and 30-06 where others I was also considering

Both of those would be great.

 

[jakelly]

If you’re trying to anchor them “right there”, I’m a big proponent of the high shoulder shot. There’s not much intrigue here, if you need “DRT” you’ve got turn the light switch off at the CNS or bust the framework. Most hunting situations make the CNS shots tricky, so that leaves the framework.

With that said, I would start with the projectile and work backwards. You need a tough proven bullet, because this isn’t right behind the shoulder shooting. Bullet lengths and magazine constraints have to be considered, and then choose a case to push the projectile at the desired speed. Which projectiles are you considering?

Do you handload? If so the 7Sherman is probably going to be tough to beat for efficiency/performance balance in that configuration.

My buddy went through this with his hunting area (high pressure Utah public land), and he came to me for help. We started with the bullet, 155 Scenar, and put together a 300WSM rifle with a 22” barrel that drove those Scenars at 3250 IIRC. First hunt, 530 yards, one shot (high shoulder) heavy 5x5 DRT. Looked like the finger of God touched it. He said the best part was the look on his Dad’s face, who was saying it was too far. My buddy is now helping his dad put together a rifle.

 

[spdrman]

Yes I hand load, in searching last night I came across the sherman cartridges and read up on them. They definitely are an interest as well.

I'm still up in the air on bullets I want for this gun. Last 10 years I've done all my hunting with a 300 rum or 300 norma, used 215, 230 bergers, 225 eldms, 220 eldx and 200 accubonds all have worked well from range of 30 yards to 1100 yards. I had a 7 mag that had shot 168 berger classics very well and put the hurt on deer

Was thinking a 300 wsm with 180 accubonds but figured if I was only going to shoot 180's I should take advantage of the higher BC of the 284 bullets in that range or even a 160 accubond.

Where I really lack in knowledge is bore size, burns rates etc. Going a shorter barrel would i be able to get more speed out of a 180 300 wsm vs a 7wsm/sherman and 175 eldx? Or around a 165 grain 30 cal vs 160 gain 7mm bullet? Going a shorter barrel I'm obviously going to be loosing speed but having a gun that's overall smaller and lighter would be nicer to carry around because I'm sure first few years I'll be packing most of his gear plus mine as well.

Im not going to ditch the suppressor, coyote hunting with him I found out real quick the communication barrier with him wearing ear pro and how it could be a problem hence the reason I went and bought the suppressor (wish I would of started buying them years ago, didnt realize how nice they'd be)

 

[spdrman]

I've killed 3 deer since this one but either didn't have time to set up the camera or they walked out of the frame like this year, joys or solo hunting and trying to film yourself. But they've all dropped like this and I'm hoping my boy has the same results

 

[cliffy110]

Why not .308? Keeps you in a short action rifle and can take up to 180 grain bullets nicely. Huge amounts of load info for anything you might want to do and keeps the recoil to a minimum. It isn't a sexy choice, but a simple one that will work well for what you're doing.

 

[Gustav7]

Really don't want this to turn into a 6.5cm/260 is just fine for elk post, its all about shot placement etc. First 10 years I hunted all I had was a 243, had some not so great experiences with elk. Just this past week my boss had his boy shoot his first elk with 6.5cm, turn and ran just far enough some other hunter's shot it too, he regrets not letting him use his 300 prc in hopes it would of dropped it right there, needless to say his boy didn't take that elk home. Sucks but our guaranteed otc elk tags have a ton of people and that happens more than it should and I dont want to go through that with my boy, honestly it'd probably cost me my job.

Every time i go to the range I take my 7 and 9 year old, they have a 22-250 shooting 75 eldm's and the 260 they both put several hundred rounds a year through which is way more than your typical hunter. This new rifle isnt going to replace those guns for practicing their fundemtals and long range shooting. I'm going to be the one that makes sure its all dialed in and good to go and I'll let him shoot steel with it a little bit but he's not going to shoot it like he does the 260 or 22-250 where they'll burn through 100 rounds in a range trip

Personally I would want my son shooting whatever rifle he is the most comfortable with....provided it was enough to make a kill. That being said, I don't know your son, so if you think he's capable of translating the good fundamentals he has with a 260 to something like a 7saum, then go for it, especially if you're going to confine his shooting distance.

Something bigger like a 7 or 30 cal magnum does allow more error in fundamentals, but going from a 260 to a 7/30cal mag also induces more shooter error. That being said, he doesn't really need to track his own shots, so as long as his recoil management is good enough, then that area of the fundamentals may not be as important.

A note on earpro, have you tried electronic muffs so you can communicate better? When coyote hunting, we run suppressors but I still wear my Peltors because they pick up whispers so well and makes it easier to talk, provided you're not moving around a bunch.

I think something like the 7 Sherman or just a straight 7saum would be the way to go. Especially handloading, you can select a more proper powder for the short barrel and run something in the 150-160 class.

 

[spdrman]

Personally I would want my son shooting whatever rifle he is the most comfortable with....provided it was enough to make a kill. That being said, I don't know your son, so if you think he's capable of translating the good fundamentals he has with a 260 to something like a 7saum, then go for it, especially if you're going to confine his shooting distance.

Something bigger like a 7 or 30 cal magnum does allow more error in fundamentals, but going from a 260 to a 7/30cal mag also induces more shooter error. That being said, he doesn't really need to track his own shots, so as long as his recoil management is good enough, then that area of the fundamentals may not be as important.

A note on earpro, have you tried electronic muffs so you can communicate better? When coyote hunting, we run suppressors but I still wear my Peltors because they pick up whispers so well and makes it easier to talk, provided you're not moving around a bunch.

I think something like the 7 Sherman or just a straight 7saum would be the way to go. Especially handloading, you can select a more proper powder for the short barrel and run something in the 150-160 class.

I need to find some youth electronic muffs, I have a couple pairs of peltors but they dont fit them well and would slide off so ended up using their non electronic muffs. Have a yote coming in try whispering and then get "WHERE IS HE COMING FROM DAD" as and answer, well he's now running away that direction son lol

If he can't shoot it well by no means would I have him hunt with it. Being I'll be right there with him I'm not to worried about him tracking his own shots

As far as the range I'm going to limit his shooting too I have no idea there. Would be all dependent on the shooting set up and wind conditions, weather animal was feeding, bedded or moving to another canyon, he's very meticulous about his trigger press and wouldn't do well shooting when a gust died down on command. Goal is to be within 300 but in the right spot with no to wild wind I wouldn't be opposed to him stretching it to 400-500. Seems like where I hunt everything is within 100 or around that 500 yards range

 

[swampbuck]

How far distance are we talking? A 338 federal might be perfect for 200 to 250 yards. I think it is perfect bear medicine for closer distances

 

[Nfrantz87]

I would go with a .308

 

[huntnh]

The wssm seem like a lot of kick for little guy I second the 308 works great in a short barrel change bullet weight to what you chasing

 

[AMG04]

I worked through a similar situation last year and also run a suppressor. As you shorten the barrel the larger bore makes up for some lost velocity by allowing faster burning powders. I was looking at the 7 SAUM/7SS with 180 Berger or 300 SAUM with the 185 or 200 Berger.

7 SAUM does best with slower powders in the H4831SC or RE26 range, which really need a 24-26 inch barrel. Of course you can make them work in a 20, just not ideal.

The 300 SAUM runs best with H4350 and RE17 which get a more complete burn in an 18 inch barrel.

Where you make up velocity, you lose a few points on your BC.

7 SAUM with 180 Bergers and 300 SAUM with 200+ Bergers really need a long action. 300 with 185 Bergers or less is fine in a short.

If you go long action there is very little difference in performance between the SAUM and the 30-06. Shoot both, just wanted to go SAUM this time for something different.

Pictured: 300 SAUM with 200.20X Berger @ 3.088" and a 30-06 with Berger 185 Hybrid @ 3.430"

Edit to add: If you are traveling to hunt, go 30-06 just incase ammo goes missing at the airport. It happens.

 

[jakelly]

If it were me, I’d be sniffing around a 140 class 7mm out of either a Sherman or straight SAUM. I’d be looking hard at the 139 LRX (those bullets like to jump). The first powder I would try would be ~H4831sc. You will get magnum velocities on cruise control (pressurewise) with an 18” barrel, there’s no need to hotrod it. Recoil will be a step up, but not two or three, from his .260. I also would twist it fast (helps tracking true when going through an animal) and throat it to maximize magazine space, no sense limiting options.

You guys keep talking about .308s and whatshisname is gonna burst in here talking about the .308 AI.

 

[supercorndogs]

I like my plain .280 Remington, I bet the 280AI would be good too. Its pretty tame with heavy barrel driving 162 A-Max at 2750. I almost ordered a lighter 21" barrel in 280 to hunt with. I run 4831SC in my long barrel 280, but as two post above talks about, I was planning on trying H4350 in the shorter barrel.

 

[WB300]

308 or 7mm-08 (or 7mm SAW) handloaded with good bullets. TBAC can easily handle them down to 16". No problem out to 400-500 yards.

Sounds like his shooting skills are up.. Teach him HUNTING skills like getting closer to the animal.... and unfortunately getting busted while getting closer.

I envy you. I was going this same route with my son. Just when I got the rifle built and all the gear purchased, he discovered Xbox. Cherish this experience. And update the thread when possible.

Good luck.

 

[supercorndogs]

He asks for something with more power than a 260. People keep suggesting .308. Whifffffff.......

 

[spdrman]

308 or 7mm-08 (or 7mm SAW) handloaded with good bullets. TBAC can easily handle them down to 16". No problem out to 400-500 yards.

Sounds like his shooting skills are up.. Teach him HUNTING skills like getting closer to the animal.... and unfortunately getting busted while getting closer.

I envy you. I was going this same route with my son. Just when I got the rifle built and all the gear purchased, he discovered Xbox. Cherish this experience. And update the thread when possible.

Good luck.

My boys pretty much haven't had a choice but to like hunting and now they get very irritated when I go on my big hunts without them, goal is to get them as close as possible obviously, his first hunt was 5 days after his first birthday when i shot this antelope with a muzzleloader with him in a backpack. Then a archery elk hunt when he was 3, He's been with me the last 5 years when I've killed a antelope with a bow and his little brother the last 4.

He's super bummed his birthday is 5 days after archery antelope closes (not sure he'll be able to pull the minimum 40lbs by then either) . We're going to put him in on muzzleloader antelope though and in idaho we have to use loose powder, solid lead bullets and iron sights. We also have quite a few extra doe tags as well thats are short range weapons only, muzzy, shotgun, pistol and archery, I try and get those tags and really work on the stalking, watching wind etc with them there, the doe with the G20 10mm was a challenge with the 2 little ones haha.

Really hoping to primarily archery hunt with him but we'll have to see how sports goes. With their current sports I havent been able to archery hunt elk the last 4 years though.

 

[spdrman]

Really appreciate all the suggestions it gives me alot to think about, I started him at 3 with a 22lr, then bought him a 17 hmr at 4 because i was getting sick of single feeding his gun when we went to shoot ground squirrels and the 17 was so the same price as the 22lr so why not . When he was 5 he really wanted to shoot long range with me so chopped up one of my tikka 260's to fit him and put a brake on it. He didn't care for the recoil much so I bought a fast twist tikka 22-250. He loves that gun. If i could do it over though I would of bought him a fast twist 223 though but I wanted the speed. Last 2 years he's really fell in love with the 260 and my younger boy has taken over the 22-250.

He doesn't really need another gun you're right, when I ordered him the xlr magnesium I ordered one for my 300 norma as well, be easy to adjust it to fit him for elk hunts and with the terminator brake I wouldn't be worried at all about him getting thumped to hard, I actually let him shoot it a shot here and there and he hasnt missed steel yet with it haha

I'm just the guy that has a gun a year or 2 and then gets bored and tries something new. I love 300 rum's and have owned a few over the last 10 years and my first thought was to just build a 18-20" rum but I bet that would be pretty violent in a light gun with a suppressor

 

[WB300]

Wow, look at those smiles. You are doing it right.

 

[hereinaz]

The 7 Sherman is a super easy gun to load and is a hammer with 60.5 grains of RL26 under a 180 VLD.

I like to compare it with the 6 br... it is just an efficient case.

Fireforming is super easy, and was accurate enough for hunting.

 

[Chickentoast]

300 WSM with a long throat and Berger 215's.