ZEISS Presents All-New LRP S5 - FFP Riflescopes for Long-Range Precision Shooting and Hunting

Like anybody cares what you say....



😉😉
I listen to Franks view point but, Frank has commented on his review videos that he doesn't put much emphasis on the finer details of optical performance etc. Frank takes a pragmatic approach to scopes which is perfectly relevant & appeals to many who just want know if the thing works.
For those who prefer to delve more deeply into the technical details of particular scopes, Ilya & a couple other guys are far more accommodating.
Frank has a different perspective than many guys as well. Frank has access to any scope he wants & this is reflected in what comes across as a rather blasé approach. I don't see anything negative in Franks reviews & he has his legitimate reasons for presenting the way he does but, for a lot of folk, spending the kind of money on these top tier scopes is a big deal & many guys prefer to delve more deeply into the subject.
So it's not a situation where myself or others don't listen to Frank. I simply see Franks view as one part of the picture.
 
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Surgeon also warned me about headaches, because you're old eyes/cataracts prevented you from focusing in detail, and your brain isn't used to the implants and your new ability to focus, so the new "workload" will give you a few headaches until your brain adjusts.
i've also heard not to get this surgery to early, as your eyes do start to grow old again, and it can't be done a second time. Wondering if it's the same decline as originally
 
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I have to add this to my post above. I've shot competitively for 12+ years, but with iron sights. Building a great rifle is relatively easy....all my rifles are laser beams, but I don't know much about optics and will never have the opportunity to compare Alpha A to B to C. This site is a godsend for guys like me. About 24 years ago, when I was still 'full time', I found a guy, on this site, who had the same job I had (sniper TL for a SWAT team). He had way more 'optics' experience than me and told me, 'buy it, you won't be disappointed'. I did....it was a 4-16 PM II and I don't have to expound on that scope. The new Zeiss vs...... be interesting.
 
i've also heard not to get this surgery to early, as your eyes do start to grow old again, and it can't be done a second time. Wondering if it's the same decline as originally
The best thing I did as I was getting up in yrs. was to get a complete/full evaluation, and was told that in 2 yrs. I would probably end up restricted from night driving, then I'd eventually lose the whole license, followed by the loss of my guns and camera gear.

No way.

After all the tests, I gave them the go sign, and after the surgeries, I was told that as long as I continued to take care of myself there wouldn't be a drastic decline of my eyesight.

This procedure is delicate. When they put in the implants, they don't do anything like suture the slit w/they insert the implants, or suture the implants in place, because there'd be too much damage to the eye.

The incision is made, and the implant is inserted and left there, and it's up to your body to heal and keep everything in place. They give you a shield, so you can't touch you eye even in your sleep (blowing the whole surgery if you do), and you don't do a damn thing for 7-10 days.

They tell you during your healing period not to bend over and pick up anything heavier than 10 pounds, and not to get your eyes wet (risking infection), and they give you antibiotics and steriods for a month.

Nothing can touch your eye while it's healing in place.


This is something you definitely want done right, the 1st time.
 
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The best thing I did as I was getting up in yrs. was to get a complete/full evaluation, and was told that in 2 yrs. I would probably end up restricted from night driving, then I'd eventually lose the whole license, followed by the loss of my guns and camera gear.

No way.

After all the tests, I gave them the go sign, and after the surgeries, I was told that as long as I continued to take care of myself there wouldn't be a drastic decline of my eyesight.

This procedure is delicate. When they put in the implants, they don't do anything like suture the slit w/they insert the implants, or suture the implants in place, because there'd be too much damage to the eye.

The incision is made, and the implant is inserted and left there, and it's up to your body to heal and keep everything in place. They give you a shield, so you can't touch you eye even in your sleep (blowing the whole surgery if you do), and you don't do a damn thing for 7-10 days.

They tell you during your healing period not to bend over and pick up anything heavier than 10 pounds, and not to get your eyes wet (risking infection), and they give you antibiotics and steriods for a month.

Nothing can touch your eye while it's healing in place.


This is something you definitely want done right, the 1st time.
Yeah, getting old is a P.I.T.A.
I wear contacts 95% of the time & as usual they have been Stella for me in every day use. Lately though, although my vision remains crystal clear at longer distance, I'm having to use reading glasses for close up work. This situation has recently deteriorated to the point where I can no longer see my turret numbers without reading glasses. The last time I shot some long distance & needed to dial, I had forgotten my glasses & couldn't see shit. I had to count the clicks from the zero stop. Not the end of the world but a P.I.T.A none the less.
I've considered many times having the Lasik surgery but, I'm not willing to risk my excellent distance vision with my contacts.
 
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Yeah, getting old is a P.I.T.A.
I wear contacts 95% of the time & as usual they have been Stella for me in every day use. Lately though, although my vision remains crystal clear at longer distance, I'm having to use reading glasses for close up work. This situation has recently deteriorated to the point where I can no longer see my turret numbers without reading glasses. The last time I shot some long distance & needed to dial, I had forgotten my glasses & couldn't see shit. I had to count the clicks from the zero stop. Not the end of the world but a P.I.T.A non the less.
I've considered many times having the Lasik surgery but, I'm not willing to risk my excellent distance vision with my contacts.
I know a few guys who really like those turret magnifier things Tyler makes
 
I know a few guys who really like those turret magnifier things Tyler makes
The running joke w/all the surgeons, is that they know the answer to the question, they ask anyway w/a big smile on their face, when you decide to do the surgery, which is....

"Do you want me to do both eyes or just one?"....... Now of course they'll only do one eye at a time, but they all get a laugh at the answer to that question which of course is...

"No Doc, let's just try one eye, and see how that goes".....


I've never suffered from "Severe Dummy Syndrome", so you don't have to guess at my answer.
 
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I've been on this venue a short while, and have learned a great deal about the mechanics of riflescopes. Optics wise, I'm in awe of the best lens makers, and the folks (some of which reside in this very forum) who make the best riflescopes.

While I've been on this forum, I've seen things blurted out in a discussion that are absolutely uninformed and ridiculous regarding these optics, which are indeed some incredible optics. The more you learn about the science of optics, the more you find out what you don't know.

It takes incredible skill/determination to come up w/a top tier optic, and the folks elsewhere and those that reside here should be celebrated and respected for what they've achieved.

Take a complicated optic w/an incredible amount of glass in it, that gets 90% to the rear end for example, I don't know if folks know how difficult that really is to do.

Optics are made of glass, the first thing light does when it hits the 1st lens element/the front glass of an optic, is that some of the light rays will reflect/bounce off the other way, which means it doesn't go through the optic, but in another direction, and of course that's not what you want, which is a % of light is already lost trying to get it through the front lens element/group and to the rear of the optic.

Not only that, light going through a piece of glass will disperse (abbe numbers tell you how much) so that the % that has dispersed/is also lost and doesn't get to the rear end.

Every time you add a piece of glass, or worse, a lens group to an optic, the same thing happens, and let's say the loss is 2% (just for the sake of argument), for every lens element/piece of glass you add to the system, by the time you've added several pieces of glass, those % for each piece of glass/lens group, will add up/combine, resulting in a big number, regarding the light lost that was supposed to reach the back end of an optic.

The folks that make top tier optics know this, and their genius, and that's exactly what it is, is their ability in getting this total % light loss down by eliminating as much light loss as they can through extremely expensive lens coatings and low dispersion glass.


Quite a bit of optics is hard to explain, but simple to understand, depriving some folks from realizing just what they're getting for their money.


"Chromatic Aberration (both lateral CA, and axial CA)", is incredibly complex sounding "macaroni" which says that the red/green/blue wavelengths that make up an object/an image, will travel through a piece of glass and hit different spots behind the glass, instead of them all hitting the same spot which they're supposed to do. When these wavelengths don't hit the same spot, you'll see lines of different colors surrounding the edges of the subject matter.

Said another way, the light that makes an image is made up of 3 different wavelengths, the red/green/blue wavelengths, when those wavelengths/colors pass through a piece of glass and don't hit at the same spot behind the glass, you get "fringing" w/the lines of different colors surrounding an object.


Aspherics/Aspheric lens elements, same thing, harder to explain than to understand, which is the outer rim of a glass element is ground into a shape that bends light at a certain angle, so that the light rays traveling through the outer rim of a glass element hit the same spot as the light rays traveling through the center of the same element.

Modern lens making/riflescopes/any optic involving glass, is based on "the angle of reflection equals the angle of incidence" law which anybody who shoots pool will understand. If you hit the 8 ball at a 45 degree angle to the side of the pool table, it will bounce off at the same angle.

Same thing w/light rays. That's what optics do (among other things), they bend light at angles. At an earlier point they did this by combining crown and flint glass into a group to send the light in a different direction. Now there's Schott glass/various combinations of different types of glass such as flourite and lanthinum glass et al where they attempt to do this while at the same time keeping dispersion down to a minimum.

When they describe how a particular glass bends light, they give a number called a "refractive index"
When they describe the way light disperses in the glass itself, instead of passing it along to the rear of an optic, they give it an "abbe number".

I mentioned all this because it begins to give an idea of what you're paying all your money for in getting one of these top tier optics.


One thing needs to be understood, it is impossible to get 100% of the light that enters from the front of an optic, through an optic to the rear end, but the folks behind these outfits (some of who reside here) are to be applauded as to the incredible performance of the optics they do produce and their ability to get the performance they do get out of their optics.

This is really hard to do, and there aren't a bunch of people on the planet that can do it.

When you get an idea of just what kind of performance they do achieve w/their optics, you'll be amazed.

When the gentleman behind one of the outfits like Zero Compromise is actually here on this forum, and starts talking, I for one, will just shut up and listen.

If I'm "preaching to the choir" or I'm going over "old ground", then please forgive me and disregard.



One thing: Over the years, I've never been asked this question by the young kids I've mentored in photography, which is a question I did ask of the folks who taught me. Which is...

"If glass is transparent, why should it affect light anyway?"

That question makes sense, except for the fact that it's not just that something is transparent, but its density matters. The density of the atmosphere, and the density of glass is different. so light will travel through air, on a line, until it hits the surface of a glass element w/a different density than air, and it will deflect at an angle. Density matters, not just that a medium is transparent.

If density didn't matter, lenses and scopes wouldn't work. The difference in density between air currents can create a lens in the atmosphere where you see something close up that's actually farther away.
 
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I've been on this venue a short while, and have learned a great deal about the mechanics of riflescopes. Optics wise, I'm in awe of the best lens makers, and the folks (some of which reside in this very forum) who make the best riflescopes.

While I've been on this forum, I've seen things blurted out in a discussion that are absolutely uninformed and ridiculous regarding these optics, which are indeed some incredible optics. The more you learn about the science of optics, the more you find out what you don't know.

It takes incredible skill/determination to come up w/a top tier optic, and the folks elsewhere and those that reside here should be celebrated and respected for what they've achieved.

Take a complicated optic w/an incredible amount of glass in it, that gets 90% to the rear end for example, I don't know if folks know how difficult that really is to do.

Optics are made of glass, the first thing light does when it hits the 1st lens element/the front glass of an optic, is that some of the light rays will reflect/bounce off the other way, which means it doesn't go through the optic, but in another direction, and of course that's not what you want, which is a % of light is already lost trying to get it through the front lens element/group and to the rear of the optic.

Not only that, light going through a piece of glass will disperse (abbe numbers tell you how much) so that the % that has dispersed/is also lost and doesn't get to the rear end.

Every time you add a piece of glass, or worse, a lens group to an optic, the same thing happens, and let's say the loss is 2% (just for the sake of argument), for every lens element/piece of glass you add to the system, by the time you've added several pieces of glass, those % for each piece of glass/lens group, will add up/combine, resulting in a big number, regarding the light lost that was supposed to reach the back end of an optic.

The folks that make top tier optics know this, and their genius, and that's exactly what it is, is their ability in getting this total % light loss down by eliminating as much light loss as they can through extremely expensive lens coatings and low dispersion glass.


Quite a bit of optics is hard to explain, but simple to understand, depriving some folks from realizing just what they're getting for their money.


"Chromatic Aberration (both lateral CA, and axial CA)", is incredibly complex sounding "macaroni" which says that the red/green/blue wavelengths that make up an object/an image, will travel through a piece of glass and hit different spots behind the glass, instead of them all hitting the same spot which they're supposed to do. When these wavelengths don't hit the same spot, you'll see lines of different colors surrounding the edges of the subject matter.

Said another way, the light that makes an image is made up of 3 different wavelengths, the red/green/blue wavelengths, when those wavelengths/colors pass through a piece of glass and don't hit at the same spot behind the glass, you get "fringing" w/the lines of different colors surrounding an object.


Aspherics/Aspheric lens elements, same thing, harder to explain than to understand, which is the outer rim of a glass element is ground into a shape that bends light at a certain angle, so that the light rays traveling through the outer rim of a glass element hit the same spot as the light rays traveling through the center of the same element.

Modern lens making/riflescopes/any optic involving glass, is based on "the angle of reflection equals the angle of incidence" law which anybody who shoots pool will understand. If you hit the 8 ball at a 45 degree angle to the side of the pool table, it will bounce off at the same angle.

Same thing w/light rays. That's what optics do (among other things), they bend light at angles. At an earlier point they did this by combining crown and flint glass into a group to send the light in a different direction. Now there's Schott glass/various combinations of different types of glass such as flourite and lanthinum glass et al where they attempt to do this while at the same time keeping dispersion down to a minimum.

When they describe how a particular glass bends light, they give a number called a "refractive index"
When they describe the way light disperses in the glass itself, instead of passing it along to the rear of an optic, they give it an "abbe number".

I mentioned all this because it begins to give an idea of what you're paying all your money for in getting one of these top tier optics.


One thing needs to be understood, it is impossible to get 100% of the light that enters from the front of an optic, through an optic to the rear end, but the folks behind these outfits (some of who reside here) are to be applauded as to the incredible performance of the optics they do produce and their ability to get the performance they do get out of their optics.

This is really hard to do, and there aren't a bunch of people on the planet that can do it.

When you get an idea of just what kind of performance they do achieve w/their optics, you'll be amazed.

When the gentleman behind one of the outfits like Zero Compromise is actually here on this forum, and starts talking, I for one, will just shut up and listen.

If I'm "preaching to the choir" or I'm going over "old ground", then please forgive me and disregard.



One thing: Over the years, I've never been asked this question by the young kids I've mentored in photography, which is a question I did ask of the folks who taught me. Which is...

"If glass is transparent, why should it affect light anyway?"

That question makes sense, except for the fact that it's not just that something is transparent, but its density matters. The density of the atmosphere, and the density of glass is different. so light will travel through air, on a line, until it hits the surface of a glass element w/a different density than air, and it will deflect at an angle. Density matters, not just that a medium is transparent.

If density didn't matter, lenses and scopes wouldn't work. The difference in density between air currents can create a lens in the atmosphere where you see something close up that's actually farther away.
I have no formal training in optics but I am very interested & read as much as I can pertaining mostly to rifle scopes. I have a kind of jig saw puzzle of information which I try to assemble in some kind of logical picture, not all of which is centred on how scopes work or perform.
When I look at the industry as a whole, there are many peculiarities which defy my simple reasoning, more than likely due to missing or skewed information.
Consider the number of companies selling scopes around the world in the last 10years. It seems that every man & his dog is clambering to sell these "house optics" from Japan & China which, appear to be designed & manufactured around standard systems of design & manufacture which are minimally modified to create the appearance of a bespoke optic. Since so many companies are following this business model, I can only assume there are good profits to be had.
There is also the question of "reverse engineering". The Chinese seem to have zero problems thieving & using patented designs to achieve market positions yet, to my knowledge, this doesn't appear to have happened yet. At least not within the top tier realm of optics. My admittedly simple understanding of both rifle scope optics & manufacturing suggests to me that "reverse engineering" should enable any suitably qualified company to obtain the information necessary to produce rifle scopes with that same level of optical performance & yet, it does not seem that this has happened.
To the ignorant, everything seems easy however, with the appropriate measuring equipment & knowledge, surely scopes can & have been reverse engineered.
With so many upstart companies clambering to hock the Chines & Japanese made scopes around the world, I can only assume that most scopes leave considerable room for profit which, begs the question of production to profit ratio & consumer end price to value ratio.
I find it difficult to believe that Leica, Zeiss, S & B, Swarovski, Minox etc would not regularly acquire & disassemble competitors scopes to find out what they are doing to achieve certain design or manufacturing outcomes.
With so little technical information available to average Joe, it is very frustrating not knowing what scopes are or are not worth their asking price &, this is my main question.
With so little information available in order to compare price to expense, the consumer is forced to rely upon opinion & the sliver of information which leaks very occasionally from a few industry insiders.
With the state of the industry at the moment, the discerning customer is logically forced to consider optics at the top of the marketing pile to alleviate what appears to me to be a very real risk of being ripped off through not getting what you pay for, even though it is next to impossible for the vast majority of consumers to know what they are paying for beyond what they believe looks good through a scope.
Like most people, I enjoy knowing that I have purchased a product for a reasonable price & at the same time obtained the best balance of design vs cost that I can with prudent knowledgeable choices. When it comes to purchasing scopes however, making informed choices seems to me to be almost impossible with the entire industry shrouded in secrecy & double speak.
How I wish I could speak with some industry insider who could enlighten me with all the secrets.
 
I'll say this, the more I shop around/conduct due dilligence on scopes, the more it seems like the scope world in terms of knowing what to buy, have the same issues, pratfalls, and "boobytraps" I've found/come up against when deciding what camera gear to buy.


In terms of camera gear, some outfits will take a point n shoot/consumer camera, take its electronics and put them in a professional looking camera body, along w/a couple of new "widgets" and will try to sell what is basically a $250 camera for $650.00. They're trying to "hose" you for the extra $400.00 dollars you don't need to pay because you think you've gotten a "new and improved" camera.

I wrote some articles for some folks on a lens I had that was a well known and coveted lens; uploaded pictures of the lens for the article, a $5,000 lens, I go on ebay some time later because someone alerted me that they have the picture of my lens that they are trying to defraud somebody by selling a lens on ebay that's in my possession


There are outfits that advertise their gear having "aspheric lenses", "flourite glass", and/or every innovation that comes out, where that may or may not be true, and/or even if it is true, doesn't mean that they knew what they were doing w/they incorporated this technology into their product. That's what I believe you have to be careful of.

In the camera world, some of these boutique digital outfits, will sell you a digital back for 25-50 grand, contrasted by the latest camera from a big monolith like Fuji coming out with a camera that has roughly the same performance from their camera selling for $6500.00


Buying gear from anybody is a "minefield" nowadays, and sure, they're scopes out there that aren't worth the money they're asking, but very good/the best gear is expensive because of the materials and "knowhow" that goes into the gear.

I try to take my time, perusing info/articles about the best and what they sell, and I also investigate the new/hungry/innovative players, because when they hungry/trying to reach the top, they'll do more for less, but you have to find out which of those players are legit, instead of being full of "empty promises" and total BS.

I don't get ANYTHING w/o a warranty, and I ck constantly anywhere/everywhere that folks will stick by their warranty and I read/peruse EVERYWHERE to see which one of these outfits sticks by their product. The selfish and the greedy quickly tire of supporting their lousy gear.

I've spent 2 years just watching/reading RIGHT HERE, then joined a few months ago, all in the pursuit of due diligence/not getting hosed/finding out the legitimate players as opposed to the con men in the scope world.


I'll tell you what I really become suspicious of, is when gear comes out, somebody shows up, and you don't know who they really are or where they really from, and w/no specifics, no detail, nothing concrete, they absolutely dump on a product that's made by a reputable outfit with "hey, I've just used this thing and it's an absolute POS."
 
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I'll say this, the more I shop around/conduct due dilligence on scopes, the more it seems like the scope world in terms of knowing what to buy, have the same issues, pratfalls, and "boobytraps" I've found/come up against when deciding what camera gear to buy.


In terms of camera gear, some outfits will take a point n shoot/consumer camera, take its electronics and put them in a professional looking camera body, along w/a couple of new "widgets" and will try to sell what is basically a $250 camera for $650.00. They're trying to "hose" you for the extra $400.00 dollars you don't need to pay because you think you've gotten a "new and improved" camera.

I wrote some articles for some folks on a lens I had that was a well known and coveted lens; uploaded pictures of the lens for the article, a $5,000 lens, I go on ebay some time later because someone alerted me that they have the picture of my lens that they are trying to defraud somebody by selling a lens on ebay that's in my possession


There are outfits that advertise their gear having "aspheric lenses", "flourite glass", and/or every innovation that comes out, where that may or may not be true, and/or even if it is true, doesn't mean that they knew what they were doing w/they incorporated this technology into their product. That's what I believe you have to be careful of.

In the camera world, some of these boutique digital outfits, will sell you a digital back for 25-50 grand, contrasted by the latest camera from a big monolith like Fuji coming out with a camera that has roughly the same performance from their camera selling for $6500.00


Buying gear from anybody is a "minefield" nowadays, and sure, they're scopes out there that aren't worth the money they're asking, but very good/the best gear is expensive because of the materials and "knowhow" that goes into the gear.

I try to take my time, perusing info/articles about the best and what they sell, and I also investigate the new/hungry/innovative players, because when they hungry/trying to reach the top, they'll do more for less, but you have to find out which of those players are legit, instead of being full of "empty promises" and total BS.

I don't get ANYTHING w/o a warranty, and I ck constantly anywhere/everywhere that folks will stick by their warranty and I read/peruse EVERYWHERE to see which one of these outfits sticks by their product. The selfish and the greedy quickly tire of supporting their lousy gear.

I've spent 2 years just watching/reading RIGHT HERE, then joined a few months ago, all in the pursuit of due diligence/not getting hosed/finding out the legitimate players as opposed to the con men in the scope world.


I'll tell you what I really become suspicious of, is when gear comes out, somebody shows up, and you don't know who they really are or where they really from, and w/no specifics, no detail, nothing concrete, they absolutely dump on a product that's made by a reputable outfit with "hey, I've just used this thing and it's an absolute POS."
I know what you're talking about.
If we look at the available published information from scope companies, consider the information published by Burris many years ago.
Although not thickly technical in nature, the info was ground breaking from the perspective of consumer Joe who, up until that time, were kept intentionally clueless as to those important design & engineering details which really mattered from the perspective of value for money.
After reading all that Burris had to offer, I could not help but come to the conclusion that Burris had chosen to publish the info not only in an effort to garner additional sales but, to try to educate the consumer in an effort to overcome what appears to me to be pure frustration on Burris's behalf in building an honest & genuine product, besieged in the market place by marketing hype of, what Burris would have known were terribly inferior products, protected by a thick encompassing layer of industry wide secrecy.
Although it seems average Joe is becoming more discerning over time, the rifle scope industry is simply not being held to account with perspective to transparency of information. Instead, prospective customers are bombarded with slick advertising espousing the allure of beautiful mountain terrain with a male model clad in tweed or the latest hunting tech clothing, traipsing about with the latest & greatest scope & rifle, peering at Chamois or Dall Sheep through $4000 binoculars, wading through mountain melt creeks & scaling rock faces.
Everything but the information any discerning buyer wants to know.
For example; if "Full multi Coating" is indeed as expensive & difficult to properly achieve as we hear, what could be the harm in at least disclosing some general information on the cost involved?
If I knew that coatings were say 25% of the cost of a $4000 optic, I would be far happier when handing over the money. As it is at the moment, we are all just told that top tier optics are expensive to design & manufacture but, we're all clueless as to what the comparative general cost break down is. This glaring lack of information leads me to assume that the true costs may not be as high as they are happy for the consumer to believe.
If I were to guess at the situation today, I think it more than likely that engineering, computer & technological improvements have considerably reduced the relative expense of these same manufacturing costs & created a legacy price in the minds & memories of the consumer. So long as all the players in the industry keep their mouths shut, the consumers remain none the wiser & pay a premium based upon a legacy. I firmly believe this to be at least part of the situation at the present time.
We can observe tell-tale signs of this situation from certain recent scope company start-ups with what could only be described as true industry insiders at the top, creating totally new brand names with what appears to be fearless abandon.
There is something that they know that we don't &, as the saying goes, if you want answers "follow the money"
 
I know what you're talking about.
If we look at the available published information from scope companies, consider the information published by Burris many years ago.
Although not thickly technical in nature, the info was ground breaking from the perspective of consumer Joe who, up until that time, were kept intentionally clueless as to those important design & engineering details which really mattered from the perspective of value for money.
After reading all that Burris had to offer, I could not help but come to the conclusion that Burris had chosen to publish the info not only in an effort to garner additional sales but, to try to educate the consumer in an effort to overcome what appears to me to be pure frustration on Burris's behalf in building an honest & genuine product, besieged in the market place by marketing hype of, what Burris would have known were terribly inferior products, protected by a thick encompassing layer of industry wide secrecy.
Although it seems average Joe is becoming more discerning over time, the rifle scope industry is simply not being held to account with perspective to transparency of information. Instead, prospective customers are bombarded with slick advertising espousing the allure of beautiful mountain terrain with a male model clad in tweed or the latest hunting tech clothing, traipsing about with the latest & greatest scope & rifle, peering at Chamois or Dall Sheep through $4000 binoculars, wading through mountain melt creeks & scaling rock faces.
Everything but the information any discerning buyer wants to know.
For example; if "Full multi Coating" is indeed as expensive & difficult to properly achieve as we hear, what could be the harm in at least disclosing some general information on the cost involved?
If I knew that coatings were say 25% of the cost of a $4000 optic, I would be far happier when handing over the money. As it is at the moment, we are all just told that top tier optics are expensive to design & manufacture but, we're all clueless as to what the comparative general cost break down is. This glaring lack of information leads me to assume that the true costs may not be as high as they are happy for the consumer to believe.
If I were to guess at the situation today, I think it more than likely that engineering, computer & technological improvements have considerably reduced the relative expense of these same manufacturing costs & created a legacy price in the minds & memories of the consumer. So long as all the players in the industry keep their mouths shut, the consumers remain none the wiser & pay a premium based upon a legacy. I firmly believe this to be at least part of the situation at the present time.
We can observe tell-tale signs of this situation from certain recent scope company start-ups with what could only be described as true industry insiders at the top, creating totally new brand names with what appears to be fearless abandon.
There is something that they know that we don't &, as the saying goes, if you want answers "follow the money"


I cant think of a single item where the manufacturer discloses in detail what the development cost or cost for individual parts are, its just redicoulus to think that way. Or well, you could always go a head and build any car from spare parts alone and tell us what the final cost came to.

I personally buy a scope for the feautures I want and I am capable to pay a premium for that little bit extra that I know Schmidt & Bender gives me. Its not that I am not able to hit stuff or even compeat with a lower level scope. Its just that if I spend a weekend away, with preparation, gas money, entry fee, food, and everything else. I cant have a scope of lesser quality that might have a higher rate of crapping the bed. It would just end up costing me that much more, and its not worth it.
 
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Please do not group me w/what somebody else says, and let me clarify what I'm saying.

I respect and admire the folks who make the best scopes, and I said so above. I respect and admire the expertise of the distinguished gentleman you have here on this forum from Zero Compromise and I said so above, if you missed that, look again, it's there.


Whether it's a new company, or a more established player, the best gear, w/the best materials, put together by the best minds, is going to be expensive, there is no getting around that.


As a professional photographer, I can tell you many folks don't have a true understanding of the cost and logistics involved in providing a product or service, and that probably applies to the legit players in the scope world. At this point in my life, I'm semi-retired, but when I had a photographic assignment as a hired hand, such as a photo session for an individual client, I was known as a shooter who went the whole "nine yards" to get you the best photograph.

I charged $xxxx.xx for a portrait session, and once, regarding my fee, a lady approached me and wanted to know why I charged "so much". Nine times out of ten my response is "you've caught me at a bad time, would you please excuse me, I'm late for a meeting" as I removed myself from her presence.


This particular time I was asked about the reasoning/basis for charging what I charged, I decided to respond to her "loaded question".

I told her I'd either shoot her in my studio, or rent a larger studio, I'd have to pay for a make-up person ($250.00) to do her make-up and hair, I make a point of having refreshments/catering ($100-$200) available during the shoot, and I'd also charge for expendable materials.

Then I told her that the remaining amount is what the client owes me for my time and expertise (this is what's called a "sitting fee"). This is what you're actually paying me for, the other amount is for my expenses, "I don't pay that, you do". I also have to service, repair, replace worn out equipment, and then there are silly expenses like being able to eat and put gas in my car.

The lady I was explaining this to then couched her response in a very cynical and snide manner, and said, just what am I getting for that amount, and I told her; "me making you look like a million dollars for way cheaper than anybody else can.... and if you don't believe that then please go find someone else".

What I charge for a sitting is NOT what I end up with, and just breaking even would've ended in me going broke.


Just from me going through what I went through, I believe that the legit players in the scope world who're also the folks that are producing the best scopes money can buy, have a tremendous overhead.

There are other folks at the other end of the spectrum who're not into making good scopes but making money, who tend to put the least amount of money and effort into their product, let alone standing behind their product w/a decent warranty.

My attitude w/that is that if you won't support your product, neither will I.
 
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Hey..... if that's for me, I'll write the fucking way I want to write, If you don't like it, then that's too fucking bad, and don't fucking read it.
I will get straight to the point instead of giving you a Reddit Fan Fiction novela of my life story. Most of us didn't need a 5,000 word salad lecture of your personal knowledge of optics.

Do you have anything specifically to say about Zeiss's LRP S5 scope or did you come to debate something completely unrelated.
 
Do you know how READ? I said at the end of what I wrote that if I was covering "old ground" to disregard, so I don't give a shit about what you need, if you don't need it, then ignore it. I don't need your permission to say what I say in a discussion and I meant what I said above, if you don't like it don't fucking read it.
 
Do you know how READ? I said at the end of what I wrote that if I was covering "old ground" to disregard, so I don't give a shit about what you need, if you don't need it, then ignore it. I don't need your permission to say what I say in a discussion and I meant what I said above, if you don't like it don't fucking read it.
So we have to READ it to the end only to have you say if you were covering “old ground” to disregard…
 
You don't have to read anything I've said, and/or read it to the end, either way, it's your choice but what I said at the end was my acknowledgement that some folks may be familiar w/what was discussed, and you know that as well as I do.

I don't tell anybody what to say or how to say it, and the same goes 4 what I say and how I say it.
 
You don't have to read anything I've said, and/or read it to the end, either way, it's your choice but what I said at the end was my acknowledgement that some folks may be familiar w/what was discussed, and you know that as well as I do.

I don't tell anybody what to say or how to say it, and the same goes 4 what I say and how I say it.
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Of course, here it comes, because I disagree w/you it's time to quit talking about what was said, and go directly at me, to demean and belittle.

The gentleman in this video, is obviously up in years, probably has some cognitive challenges, he still deserves my respect/and my help if he needs it.


You are using his video/and showing another human being in an unflattering way, to undercut me, that's not respect, and that's the difference between you and me..........not my age.
 
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And, just like that, the thread got de-railed...

I have not yet received the LRP, but most of the other scopes I will be using for the comparison are here. A little later today, I'll be setting up the S&B, Steiner, USO, TT and ZCO on my tripod fixture. Just waiting for the Zeiss and March.

Fair warning: once I have everything here, it will be a long ass video and likely a pretty long write-up. I am sort of a detail oriented guy.

ILya
 
And, just like that, the thread got de-railed...

I have not yet received the LRP, but most of the other scopes I will be using for the comparison are here. A little later today, I'll be setting up the S&B, Steiner, USO, TT and ZCO on my tripod fixture. Just waiting for the Zeiss and March.

Fair warning: once I have everything here, it will be a long ass video and likely a pretty long write-up. I am sort of a detail oriented guy.

ILya
ILya,

You doing the ZCO 5-27 or 4-20?
 
And, just like that, the thread got de-railed...

I have not yet received the LRP, but most of the other scopes I will be using for the comparison are here. A little later today, I'll be setting up the S&B, Steiner, USO, TT and ZCO on my tripod fixture. Just waiting for the Zeiss and March.

Fair warning: once I have everything here, it will be a long ass video and likely a pretty long write-up. I am sort of a detail oriented guy.

ILya
Yes, but as the dark lorde of <optics> your content is always on topic. Like you know, about the thread subject. I have been waiting for your review for a bit.
 
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I'm in the market for another scope and am thinking of spending the $$$ for something that will compliment my 21 yr old PM II. I'm leaning to ZCO or Zeiss. lLya...you gonna being comparing these two alpha's?
 
Thanks for the confirmation. I have 1 of each and honestly, if I could one keep 1, it would be the 4-20. It’s a fantastic scope. I’m very interested in your comparison and review.

I have looked at the 4-20x50 ZCO when it first came out and it has been firmly on my list of recommendations. However, as new stuff comes out, it is good to re-visit things. With high end stuff, it is really difficult to be certain of what's what without a side-by-side comparison.

ILya
 
Just from me going through what I went through, I believe that the legit players in the scope world who're also the folks that are producing the best scopes money can buy, have a tremendous overhead.

That's a quote from entry #270

2 points...



1) The fight's over.

2)I talked in specifics re overhead/operating costs of a business I do own, because I can't talk in specifics about a company I don't own, re making the point about the issue of whoever buys your product doesn't always get that your price for a product/service, isn't the same thing as the amount that ends up in your pocket.

The cost of multi coating an optic has come up in this discussion; quite a number of years ago a lens maker said that at one point in time, their cost from the multi coating process amounted to about 1/3 the total cost of the lens. From what I read about the evolution of the science of multi coating, I believe it.

That same issue of operating costs, applies to most businesses and particularly the folks who make riflescopes and their spending tremendous amounts on manufacturing/R&D.

That's on topic, was discussed here, and goes into the issue of the price of the riflescopes discussed here, including the Zeiss LRP line.

Unless something changes, I've been going seriously in the direction of the Z Comp 4-20, although I may see how the Zeiss LRP unfolds.
 
That's a quote from entry #270

2 points...



1) The fight's over.

2)I talked in specifics re overhead/operating costs of a business I do own, because I can't talk in specifics about a company I don't own, re making the point about the issue of whoever buys your product doesn't always get that your price for a product/service, isn't the same thing as the amount that ends up in your pocket.

The cost of multi coating an optic has come up in this discussion; quite a number of years ago a lens maker said that at one point in time, their cost from the multi coating process amounted to about 1/3 the total cost of the lens. From what I read about the evolution of the science of multi coating, I believe it.

That same issue of operating costs, applies to most businesses and particularly the folks who make riflescopes and their spending tremendous amounts on manufacturing/R&D.

That's on topic, was discussed here, and goes into the issue of the price of the riflescopes discussed here, including the Zeiss LRP line.

Unless something changes, I've been going seriously in the direction of the Z Comp 4-20, although I may see how the Zeiss LRP unfolds.

Are you seriously quoting yourself now?
 
I have looked at the 4-20x50 ZCO when it first came out and it has been firmly on my list of recommendations. However, as new stuff comes out, it is good to re-visit things. With high end stuff, it is really difficult to be certain of what's what without a side-by-side comparison.

ILya
So, Tyler is posting comparison scope pics of ZCO vs Zeiss but the larger objective models.

Now, I’m absolutely NOT saying he has his thumb on the scale, but the diff in contrast and color saturation (way more contrast and saturation shown in Zeiss pics) in his pics are startling and I would love to know your impression of these characteristics when you do you eval.

Thanks
 
Yes, very seriously, if I think it might've been missed.

I said the fight is over.


When you make fun of older people who suffer from dementia, don't bother to respond to my posts, and your bait is off topic.

No fight and no disrespect intended but seriously your walls of text adding zero value to this thread were getting "old"

And like you said, we can ignore it you don't care either way....I chose to use a little levity...You do understand what website you are on right? Hopefully you stay clear of the bear pit.... the clip was in jest calm down guy and take your blood pressure meds and also prolly reconsider the Zeiss so you don't need a mkm turret magnifier to see what settings your turrets are on without your readers...
 
Yes, I do understand what site I'm on. I've watched/read what's on this site for 2 yrs. before I joined, and they're folks here who aren't familiar w/some of the terms thrown about in discussing the abilities of these optics, so I talked about optics for those folks, not the folks that already know.

So I disagree about my entries adding zero value, "but whose to say" and I agree w/injecting a "little levity" or even a lot of "levity" into a discussion, and you may have thought the clip was in jest, and if you mean that, I appreciate it, but I can assure you what you did, may not come off that way to everybody.

When someone close to you, or a good friend, suffers from those kinds of challenges, I will suggest to you that you will feel anything but levity.

I talked about the surgeries because I thought it tied into my decision not to buy a 3-4k top tier scope unless my surgeries gave me the ability to "pick up" the detail/nuance/clarity that you buy these scopes for. My eyesight was getting so bad that any optic/scope I bought, no matter how bright, no matter how clear, was going to look dark and fuzzy. Why waste money on a top tier optic when you're half blind.

That applies to the scopes being discussed here.

At age 70, your pupils have shrunk down to 2.5mm and when you add cataracts and astigmatism you'll need one of those magnifiers/or glasses to pick up txt that's extremely close, and the additional issue of are you getting the benefits of the scope you've paid all this money for.


In any event, you seem to have made a gesture, so we'll agree on declaring peace, and leave it there.
 
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