Advanced Marksmanship Zeroing at 300 yards?

[BravoXray]

<span style="font-weight: bold">Background</span>: two weeks ago I had the chance to attend a great Beginner Intermediate precision rifle class given by BHTC. Before that I had a little experience with shooting 1,000yds modified f-class at Qauntico and even a rare tact match. Before now my scope served me well (Konus M30 6-25x).

The class showed me that for tactical shooting I may need to look for specific features my scope didn't offer: Ie; a scope with mil/mil vs my mil/moa, I also learned I prefer a reticle with hash lines with smaller increments for ranging instead of the normal mil dots.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Problem</span>: The main set back I had was my 1/8 adjustments. Upon going from one target to the next with distances varying from 300 to 800 to 550 to 1, 000 keeping track of where I was on the turret became a battle. Especially during nightfire where actually seeing the numbers on the turret just wasn't an option. Can you imagine trying to count the amount of clicks I had to dial in to get to 450yards..LOL

<span style="font-weight: bold">Question</span>: until I upgrade my scope would it be wise to get into the habit of zeroing my rifle at say.. 300 yards whenever I plan on shooting a class or match where the distances vary. Would that alleviate some of the excessive dialing? Does anyone use this practice and have success with it? Did you run into any problems doing this?

Thanks for reading, and any feedback.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

Quit counting clicks!

Record your settings for the different ranges in your data book and when you're shooting that distance again you can just go back to that setting. The only challenge will be not getting lost on your revolutions. Pay close attention and you shouldn't have too much of a problem with that.

 

[BravoXray]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

Redmanss

I get what you're sayin..Understand the only time I actually counted clicks was during the night fire. I didn't have a choice, couldn't see the numbers on the turrets (yeah it was that dark).couldn't use white light, and very few of us had chem lights. We weren't expecting to get the chance to do a night shoot.

Other than that I do use the data I record in my book to go from one dist to the next. I'm just trying to think of more efficient way than going through a ton of revolutions, especially in a match where time matters or there are multiple targets at different distances.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

For night firing, you can get some luminous paint and put a marker on your turret and turret housing. That way you can rapidly spin for each revolution, then count the last little bit.

Multiple target engagement at different distances you just use mil holds for elevation. With the old Unertls we would set our scopes at 600 and could engage under normal conditions with a standard mil dot reticle from 0-1k yds using accurate mil holds. We would even run drills where we would engage targets at unknown distances without being allowed to touch our elevation turret.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

Think you are lost now? Start having to dial up and down from your 300 yard zero point.

Don't zero at 300. Keep your zero at 100 so anywhere you dial will be up.

Keep track of how much elevation is below your zero point so if you do get lost you can just bottom out and dial up to your zero.

If you have lines under the knob keep track of those as well.

Get a small red light to help you see the dials at night. Luminous paint works also.

And don't count clicks. Use the big numbers on the turret. That's what they are there for

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

I think Rob01 is on to something. Incidentally, the 300 meter zero is associated with an iron sight battle sight zero on something like an M4 or M16A2/4, where such zero is useful for UKD targets out to about 400 meters, when using a center of mass body hold on a 20 inch wide X 40 inch tall reference target. Also, when set properly on a bullet drop compensating sight, the 300 BSZ can be vacated for a hasty re-adjustment of the sight to get good hits on KD targets too, out to 600, or even 800 meters, which, of course, are beyond the effective range for the BSZ, with any hold where you would still see the target in your sight picture.

 

[Albertl]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

Same as Rob01. Zero at 100 and set your zero stop there. Everything else is up

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

I don't think "one size fits all here". I'm in the "shoot for hair not air crowd"...........but.......that always isn't practical.

First off I don't like 1/8 minute clicks. I have them on my varmint rifle but they are too slow and its too easy to clount clicks. I find in shooting PDs its faster to sight the rifle in at 250 yards and use favors. I don't even like 1/4 min clicks. Yeah my hunting scopes have them but I don't hunt over 300 yards so I don't fool with the knobs on my hunting scopes, which are sighted in at 250 yards.

The Marines did that (mid range BSZ) in Vietnam. They had the Redfield Accur Range BDC on their M-40s but the standard was to sight them in at 500 yards and use hold over/under favors.

The Army's ART on the M21 was a bit differant, you simply adjusted for range via ranging the target, no counting clicks or having problems seeing the "marks" on the turrent.

I think one should learn both, clicks or marks on the turent when possible and time allows, and favors with time is critical and you cant see the marks on the turents.

I don't think a 100 yard zero would be practical in that situation.

If one has a post type sight (as in the M84 scopes on the M1C/Ds), knowing the with of the post in MOAs, and has experence using that as a range finder, then he can also use it to estimate hold overs so I believe sighting in at 300 yards or so would be practical.

Using the M84 for example, you know the post is 3MOA. The E Sil. target is the same size as the post at 600 yards, with practice, you get to where you can tell what is 18 inches at any reasonable range so favoring can be used.

When I was running sniper schools before we went to the M21s we used the Garands. A lot of guys would sight their rifles in at the 300 yard targets then use favors, they didn't seem to fair any worse then those who made corrections.

Yes it's prefered to adjust, but one should know how to favor and favoring at distants is better if the rifle is sighted in at 300 or so yards.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

You don't have to have the rifle zeroed at 300 yards to use it as a mid point for a situation. You just dial it to there and then you can hold. For the Moving Chaos drill at Rifles Only you can dial on your 400 yard data for the two 400 yard movers and then hold over or under for the other 3 targets. That's different than having your rifle zeroed at 400 yards. I run a range card with 400 yards being my zero point but I don't zero my rifle at that range. I just dial to my 400 yard data.

 

[BravoXray]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

Thanks guys..lot of good info. I'll stick with the 100 yd Zero and I'm going to try the luminous paint.

 

[MD2Colo]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You don't have to have the rifle zeroed at 300 yards to use it as a mid point for a situation. You just dial it to there and then you can hold. For the Moving Chaos drill at Rifles Only you can dial on your 400 yard data for the two 400 yard movers and then hold over or under for the other 3 targets. That's different than having your rifle zeroed at 400 yards. I run a range card with 400 yards being my zero point but I don't zero my rifle at that range. I just dial to my 400 yard data. </div></div>

That's the way to go. I use 300m travelling dope, which gives me 5 mils of holdover to get out to 6-700 and hold under for targets <300m. Zeroed at 100m. Helps to have your holds memorized, of course. Illum tape inside your scope cap works at night.
Good stuff

 

[MD2Colo]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

I realize i dug this up from the dead btw...

 

[ctressler]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't zero at 300. Keep your zero at 100 so anywhere you dial will be up.

Keep track of how much elevation is below your zero point so if you do get lost you can just bottom out and dial up to your zero.</div></div>

+1

It is easy to get lost on the turret, I think hear it at every match, somebody blowing a stage because they were one revolution off.

 

[bchibb]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

"0" @ 100

 

[Eric B.]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

NO MORE DIALING:
How about a scope with, for ex, a Horus H-25 reticle? No dialing, just using the correct elevation/windage hash marks after zeroing at, say 100 yards.

Again, practice to know which elevation mark to use at which range.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

So who's more confused now?

I zero at 100, and like a chart with 200yd increments taped onto the left side of my stock, weatherized with a layer of clear packaging tape.

K.I.S.S.

The chart is calibrated in dial numbers, a comma, and the number of additional clicks. If needed, turns followed by a comma precededs the numbers. Starting clicks above dead bottom for the 100yd zero is also listed.

The fewer numbers/increments, the simpler it can be to make a SWAG Guestimate. The whole plan is intended to cut the mind chatter to a minimum and get that first round on the way soonest. My thinking is colored heavily by experience as an Infantry Leg. Sniping is nice; getting effective fire headed (back?) toward the threat soonest is maybe even nicer.

The sling/bipod support/jump restricting technique I use has a higher probability of permitting impacts to be observed. The nice part is that it works with a slack sling with the length adjustment which can be preset to a good approximation before it's needed, and no fancy, lengthy steps are needed to get it underway.

Having been shot at and missed, I know my first impulse is to duck and cover; so hit or miss, I suspect that target is not going to be so effective a threat after either the hit or the miss. The sooner they duck, the sooner they make themselves less effective.

A more effective approach to combat fire support has covering fire taking place while the more precisely aimed fire is setting up. I saw that at Quantico in the early 1990's when it was being experimented with as a potential combat doctrine. I never did find out whether it got adopted, but it looked like a danged good idea at the time.

You may be shooting steel, but the best course is to always think like they can shoot back. Too often, this aspect is ignored by practical shooting exercises.

Greg

 

[BGE541]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

What caliber are you shooting?

 

[old95b10]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

Have lost my 100 yard zero on one of my rifles. last shot it at 1400 and did not rest the zero. Now I dont remember what line it was at for 100. 2 many rifles !! Found a solution to this with a Sharpie pen. Its point is perfect to mark the lines and not get paint all over the scope, and the red one still lets the white of the marking to read thru enough to be seen well.
I use Exbal on a old phone and it has all the parameters for my different rifles set into it, all are using a 20 moa base or more
and have had no trouble getting my dope right with it.

 

[TexasClassIII]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

I tried the 300 yard zero and like others have said, I found that there is actually much more room for confusion.

Having to worry about dialing up and down may not seem like a big deal, but I found it to be a huge pain and eventually went back to 100 yd zero.

Parker

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

For me, this is where mil turrets really demonstrate their usefulness. I started out with mil/mil scopes, and only after some time acquired MOA/MOA scopes with 0.125 MOA turrets for F-Class competitions. By their very nature of having 8 "clicks" per MOA, 0.125 MOA turrets make it WAY harder to keep track of your adjustments. Unless you need the finer adjustment, mil turrets make it so much simpler to keep track. Even 0.250 MOA turrets are easier to follow than 0.125 MOA. Unless you really need/want the finer increment, use mil turrets.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For me, this is where mil turrets really demonstrate their usefulness. I started out with mil/mil scopes, and only after some time acquired MOA/MOA scopes with 0.125 MOA turrets for F-Class competitions. By their very nature of having 8 "clicks" per MOA, 0.125 MOA turrets make it WAY harder to keep track of your adjustments. Unless you need the finer adjustment, mil turrets make it so much simpler to keep track. Even 0.250 MOA turrets are easier to follow than 0.125 MOA. Unless you really need/want the finer increment, use mil turrets. </div></div>

Problem is, most folks getting into it don't know what they "really need/want", so they buy what they've heard is better. Without any experience in the matter, they may take suggestions, like yours. There is certainly a place for fine graduations; but, with such precision, there's a trade off in speed. For NRA bullseye shooting finer graduations may be appreciated without concern for counting; yet, for other applications, fine graduations would be ridiculous. Interestingly, I have a 1/4 by 1/4 MOA graduated BDC type carry handle sight on my match conditioned AR based Service Rifle. I recall in a practice session an attempt to refine my 100 yard reduced course zero on the MR-31, I initially shot a group at 9 o'clock on shots called right-in-there, so I made an adjustment taking one click right. To my surprise, the next group called right-in-there hit at 3 o'clock. At any rate, at the end of a twenty round string, I posted a score of 198 and 17 and still had an X mark dangling by a thread on that target. It made me think perhaps an 1/8 MOA adjustment might not be a bad idea. It would be a bad idea however since attempting to keep up with finer clicks than quarters would tempt error, I'm sure. With a scope, however, I'd have no problem with 1/8 MOA, first because clicking to exact elevation is key to winning and second because the scope's magnification/reticle allows me to accurately favor for wind which makes clicking unnecessary.

 

[Graham]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

I don't get it: If you are zeroed at 300 you are also zeroed at 100. The only difference is whether or not you slip the elevation knob and place the numeral zero facing the butt of the rifle.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

Battle sight zero.

Boy, do I remember that from some years gone by!!!

Son, when the shit hits the fan you don't care about if you're 1 or 2 or 3 inches off the "X" mark. You just want that son of a bitch to drop in his tracks.

Define your resolution and requirement and live with it.

I'm pretty damned certain that that piece of stuff that you're shooting at ain't shootin' back.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have lost my 100 yard zero on one of my rifles. last shot it at 1400 and did not rest the zero. Now I dont remember what line it was at for 100. 2 many rifles !!</div></div>

Data/Score book would have eliminated that.

As Mae West said, "you keep a diary, and it will keep you"

 

[old95b10]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

100% correct !! worked with a notebook for years with no problems to 300 yards. got to going farther and picked up a pda with all the new stuff in it,and forgot were I came from.
Wished I had a good excuse but I do not, just in a hurry and not thinking of the the simple shit. wont happen again.
have a brand new notebook to go with my pda thing.Thanks for bustin my chops on this one.

 

[BadDudes4Hire]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

S1GNAL

Listen to What Redmanss is saying. Preferrably, zero your scope for 200 Yards. With some practice, you can shoot shorter distances with precision. And you are that much closer to a 400 or 600 yard shot. If you are zeroed at 300, then it can become somewhat difficult to get desirable MOA at shorter distances. And precision is what you want. Dock your 50 yard increments carefully, and you can become accurate at a 25 yard interval, and not worry much about docking those. Be very careful of revolutions, as if you get off by one, you will be off of every future interval, say 600 yards, 700 yards. If the question is where to zero the scope, look at Hornady's ballistic chart.

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/ballistics/english-ballistics-chart-2010.pdf

Where do they zero these ballistics. 200 yards. Then look at the rise at 100, and drop at 500. This is a very common sense thing to do, as if at 100 yards, just raise up 1.5 inch or so depending on rifle and round preference. 200 Yards is really what long distance is about.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

Since a zero is not independent from distance, to hit where aimed will always require recognition for what sight adjustment is necessary to hit at a given distance. You do what you need to do. If you can get a good hit without consideration of sight adjustment, such as when shooting center of mass on an E target within 400 meters on a rifle zeroed for 300 meters, then perhaps for the necessity of speed you may not do anything. However, with the same BSZ'd rifle shooting at 500 meters, you must understand that doing nothing will get you a miss. Making a statement like a 200 yard zero is best, makes me ask, best for what? The answer is, best for shooting at 200 yards. For any other distance a hit where aimed will require a sight adjustment.

 

[longshooter]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

I zero for MPBR, or 300 yards. Smaller or close targets, hold under or dial down, if you wish to, or need to.

It seems a 300 zero would compliment the OPs situation.

 

[MALLARD]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

ha , one reason you want a gun with a flat trajectory , less fucking around with adjustments , the typical 308 drops around 36-40 moa at 1000y , the 50/338's and 6.5mm's drop around 25 moa or less at that distance.

holdover is nice but if your using the bottom of your reticle to hold over at 1000y chances are you no longer can observe the wind,but if you had a partner i guess it wouldn't matter.

gota have the nightforce zero stops, great shit.

 

[BadDudes4Hire]

Re: Zeroing at 300 yards?

bump on Nightforce