zeroing for the first time, don't understand the result

[Walter Haas]

Guys, please help I don't understand my zero data. I shot 9 rounds at 100 yards. All nine I shot with the aim point being the lower left corner of the big red square in the middle. The first 3 were the ones up high and then I used the vortex tool to adjust the black dial in the scope.

Now, the next 6 are in the big red square but I don't know what this means since I was aiming at the lower left corner of the red square which I would think means the center of this group of six is about .8 inches high and .8 inches right. So I assume I should now adjust the scope again by however much that amounts to in mrads? How tight do I need to pull it in before its a good zero?

1. is there a way of knowing the center of the group? Is there a standard way or a lot of different ways?
2. knowing these black squares are one inch squares, is there an easy way of converting to mrads?
3. would you also zero the windage based on what I have here?
4. when is your zero good enough to move on? What's your personal standard for "good enough"?

 

[ChristianSilver]

There is 3.60” in 1 MRAD at 100 yds. If your scope has turrets w/ 10th clicks then 10 clicks is 1 MRAD. 1/10th is .36” so adjust away.
Me?, I’d take it out to greater distances and see what you have.
Really close where your at...

 

[M8541Reaper]

is there a way of knowing the center of the group? Is there a standard way or a lot of different ways?

1. knowing these black squares are one inch squares, is there an easy way of converting to mrads?
2. would you also zero the windage based on what I have here?
3. when is your zero good enough to move on? What's your personal standard for "good enough"

Too easy man. I’ll hit the main questions first and try to give some advice at the end.

Answers:
1. The fastest and easiest way is to use your reticle, which should be calibrated in Mils based on your concerns. So use the reticle like a ruler. Another option you could try, if you’re unfamiliar/inexperienced with reading the subtensions of your reticle (which should be addressed ASAP), is to download the Ballistic-X app. This app will also help you with finding the center of the group and the exact POA/POI offset.

2. Yes. The tighter your group is and the closer you can get it to your Point of Aim (POA), the better. This will spare you a lot of frustration down the line. Fear not though, because even if you couldn’t mechanically adjust the group any closer than what you have, you can use software to compensate for the shift. BallisticsARC has an app that lets you input the zero offset, which will take into account your actual zero range (are you zeroed at 100yds or 96yds?) and what your offsets are. So let’s say you left it like this and grabbed both apps I mentioned. Ballistic X gives you an elevation offset of .2 mils up and .2 mils right (correction would then be .2 down and .2 left). You get a buddy to use a rangefinder (if you don’t have one) and get the actual distance to the target from your firing position, let’s say 96 yards. You then take that info and go into BallisticsARC and input it under your rifle’s profile. The computer takes care of the rest and will adjust your data fields to compensate for the offset.

NOTE: This is great for fine-tuning zeroes, but you need to focus on building a solid foundation of knowledge and competency before you just accept what’s on paper. Not a slight against you, just too many people say“that’s good enough” just to get frustrated at distance when they arent hitting.

3. Personally I demand a lot of myself and it can sometimes (oftentimes lol) be a hinderance for growth. Don’t be too hard on yourself because you’re shooting for fun, not for work. I personally hate grouping drills but they are a necessary evil. I’d give your group a quick correction of .2 down and .2 left, shoot a confirmation group, and as long as your size is the same, record it, float/slip your turrets, and move on for the day.

ADVICE:
Read Ryan Cleckner’s book “Long Range Shooting Handbook” which can be found on amazon or really anywhere. It’s a short, to the point, easy to read book that hammers home the baseline knowledge without burdening a new shooter. Apply what you’ve read and highlight the parts you struggle with. After that, take a class. If you can afford to travel, I’d recommend reaching out to Frank for a class (listen to the podcast as well, nothing but loads of free information and advice) or, if you can’t afford to travel, look around you and try and find a reputable course near you. Once you find one, vet it either through here or from people you trust. A professional period of quality instruction is the best investment shooters can make.

As for the stuff I mentioned above about the apps, I’m going to go back and screenshot some stuff to help you visualize what I was talking about.

 

[Reverie Ranges]

Looks like down .2 and left .2 send again 3x @100 to confirm, adjust again if necessary. Adjust DOPE to 300 for confirming zero @300.
Remember: Breathe, Relax, Aim, and Gently Squeeze... Enjoy!

 

[M8541Reaper]

^BallisticX app with the overlay showing you your ATZ (Adjust to Zero), aka what you’d need to dial in order to get yourself dialed into your POA. You obviously can’t dial the .05 difference, so you’d have to choose between .2 or .3 on elevation. Either way, you’ll be fine at this point. You also have your group size, which is .85 MOA, so good enough group size for ensuring a decent zero (so keep it up and it will get tighter). NOTE: All of this is based on 100yds and a .308. If you aren’t running that caliber, or the range was actually 102yds or 95yds, then the numbers will obviously change slightly.

^BallisticARC app
Here’s where you’d put in the information so the computer can calculate your data. Too easy. The app also allows you to true your data as well, but that’s a topic for another thread thats been covered multiple times before...as has this, but I figured I’d try an help.

I hope I was able to give ya some answers that made sense.

 

[Walter Haas]

View attachment 7249798
View attachment 7249800^BallisticX app with the overlay showing you your ATZ (Adjust to Zero), aka what you’d need to dial in order to get yourself dialed into your POA. You obviously can’t dial the .05 difference, so you’d have to choose between .2 or .3 on elevation. Either way, you’ll be fine at this point. You also have your group size, which is .85 MOA, so good enough group size for ensuring a decent zero (so keep it up and it will get tighter). NOTE: All of this is based on 100yds and a .308. If you aren’t running that caliber, or the range was actually 102yds or 95yds, then the numbers will obviously change slightly.

View attachment 7249799
^BallisticARC app
Here’s where you’d put in the information so the computer can calculate your data. Too easy. The app also allows you to true your data as well, but that’s a topic for another thread thats been covered multiple times before...as has this, but I figured I’d try an help.

I hope I was able to give ya some answers that made sense.

Amazing info, thank you very much! I need to ponder this and download these apps.

 

[Walter Haas]

Looks like down .2 and left .2 send again 3x @100 to confirm, adjust again if necessary. Adjust DOPE to 300 for confirming zero @300.
Remember: Breathe, Relax, Aim, and Gently Squeeze... Enjoy!

Thank you!

 

[Walter Haas]

Too easy man. I’ll hit the main questions first and try to give some advice at the end.

Answers:
1. The fastest and easiest way is to use your reticle, which should be calibrated in Mils based on your concerns. So use the reticle like a ruler. Another option you could try, if you’re unfamiliar/inexperienced with reading the subtensions of your reticle (which should be addressed ASAP), is to download the Ballistic-X app. This app will also help you with finding the center of the group and the exact POA/POI offset.

2. Yes. The tighter your group is and the closer you can get it to your Point of Aim (POA), the better. This will spare you a lot of frustration down the line. Fear not though, because even if you couldn’t mechanically adjust the group any closer than what you have, you can use software to compensate for the shift. BallisticsARC has an app that lets you input the zero offset, which will take into account your actual zero range (are you zeroed at 100yds or 96yds?) and what your offsets are. So let’s say you left it like this and grabbed both apps I mentioned. Ballistic X gives you an elevation offset of .2 mils up and .2 mils right (correction would then be .2 down and .2 left). You get a buddy to use a rangefinder (if you don’t have one) and get the actual distance to the target from your firing position, let’s say 96 yards. You then take that info and go into BallisticsARC and input it under your rifle’s profile. The computer takes care of the rest and will adjust your data fields to compensate for the offset.

NOTE: This is great for fine-tuning zeroes, but you need to focus on building a solid foundation of knowledge and competency before you just accept what’s on paper. Not a slight against you, just too many people say“that’s good enough” just to get frustrated at distance when they arent hitting.

3. Personally I demand a lot of myself and it can sometimes (oftentimes lol) be a hinderance for growth. Don’t be too hard on yourself because you’re shooting for fun, not for work. I personally hate grouping drills but they are a necessary evil. I’d give your group a quick correction of .2 down and .2 left, shoot a confirmation group, and as long as your size is the same, record it, float/slip your turrets, and move on for the day.

ADVICE:
Read Ryan Cleckner’s book “Long Range Shooting Handbook” which can be found on amazon or really anywhere. It’s a short, to the point, easy to read book that hammers home the baseline knowledge without burdening a new shooter. Apply what you’ve read and highlight the parts you struggle with. After that, take a class. If you can afford to travel, I’d recommend reaching out to Frank for a class (listen to the podcast as well, nothing but loads of free information and advice) or, if you can’t afford to travel, look around you and try and find a reputable course near you. Once you find one, vet it either through here or from people you trust. A professional period of quality instruction is the best investment shooters can make.

As for the stuff I mentioned above about the apps, I’m going to go back and screenshot some stuff to help you visualize what I was talking about.

Thanks a million! Your mention of the error in distance to target has got me wondering if there's an available list, a hierarchy, of error variables prioritized by concern, meaning primary(like distance error, actual muzzle velocity) down to subtler second order and third order effects (such as cold bore vs hot bore). I would love to have that list.

I can see how someone can become obsessed with the zeroing process, because the zero is defining the limit for differentiating other sources of error at the longer distances. But you're right, if history is my guide I will analyze this and push myself til its no fun anymore, like I did with rock climbing.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Thanks a million! Your mention of the error in distance to target has got me wondering if there's an available list, a hierarchy, of error variables prioritized by concern, meaning primary(like distance error, actual muzzle velocity) down to subtler second order and third order effects (such as cold bore vs hot bore). I would love to have that list.

I can see how someone can become obsessed with the zeroing process, because the zero is defining the limit for differentiating other sources of error at the longer distances. But you're right, if history is my guide I will analyze this and push myself til its no fun anymore, like I did with rock climbing.

Short answer: Yes there are lists of variables out there. Actually the other dude who commented on your post above is compiling a list of errors that can have effects. Without understanding what each means and why it does what it does, the list alone isn’t going to benefit you as much as it could. Go check it out though.

Longer Answer:
Don’t sweat it too much man. Just keep at least a solid 1 MOA zero at 100 and dial it in as close as you can to your POA. That’s it for now. Don’t fret the offset too much right now either. Put it this way, dudes have been running 1MOA elevation and 1/2MOA windage turrets on their M24’s MK4 optic’s for decades and they still continue to do so on various contracts. So you have these common situations where guys are aiming at the center of a 1” square but impact at the top right inside edge. If they dial down 1 adjustment value (1MOA) and left 1 adjustment (1/2MOA), then they are just flipping the impact to the bottom left inside edge. They were never able to truly fine tune the zero to an exact POA/POI. It’s just a matter of picking one, noting it, and running the gun to collect data. Don’t get wrapped up on the small stuff like that right now, as you can go down a rabbit hole that will distract you from what’s actually important...the basic fundamentals of marksmanship.

The best way to get started is to take a course from an instructor that knows what he’s doing and has the credentials to back it up. Hit up Frank, Modern Day Sniper, or Max Ordinate and get that solid foundation first (just to name a few but there are quite a few others that are solid. Go check out the training course forum on here). Then you can jump head first into the stack of knowledge that awaits. Otherwise you’re just setting yourself up for failure. Anyone can zero a rifle and shoot 1MOA groups at 100. Everything that comes after that is tied to it but requires a solid foundation to be truly successful.

Whatever you do, don’t get sucked into the electronics or the weird need to rely on em for everything. Read through the “it’s 2020 manage your data” thread that’s going here. Between that thread and the “Wind Rose/Try DOPE” posts, you have everything you need to be successful without dropping hundreds of dollars on electronics and wasting hundreds of rounds chasing shit.

Lastly, another great resource is the online training option here on the Hide. Try it out and you won’t regret it.

 

[Walter Haas]

Short answer: Yes there are lists of variables out there. Actually the other dude who commented on your post above is compiling a list of errors that can have effects. Without understanding what each means and why it does what it does, the list alone isn’t going to benefit you as much as it could. Go check it out though.

Longer Answer:
Don’t sweat it too much man. Just keep at least a solid 1 MOA zero at 100 and dial it in as close as you can to your POA. That’s it for now. Don’t fret the offset too much right now either. Put it this way, dudes have been running 1MOA elevation and 1/2MOA windage turrets on their M24’s MK4 optic’s for decades and they still continue to do so on various contracts. So you have these common situations where guys are aiming at the center of a 1” square but impact at the top right inside edge. If they dial down 1 adjustment value (1MOA) and left 1 adjustment (1/2MOA), then they are just flipping the impact to the bottom left inside edge. They were never able to truly fine tune the zero to an exact POA/POI. It’s just a matter of picking one, noting it, and running the gun to collect data. Don’t get wrapped up on the small stuff like that right now, as you can go down a rabbit hole that will distract you from what’s actually important...the basic fundamentals of marksmanship.

The best way to get started is to take a course from an instructor that knows what he’s doing and has the credentials to back it up. Hit up Frank, Modern Day Sniper, or Max Ordinate and get that solid foundation first (just to name a few but there are quite a few others that are solid. Go check out the training course forum on here). Then you can jump head first into the stack of knowledge that awaits. Otherwise you’re just setting yourself up for failure. Anyone can zero a rifle and shoot 1MOA groups at 100. Everything that comes after that is tied to it but requires a solid foundation to be truly successful.

Whatever you do, don’t get sucked into the electronics or the weird need to rely on em for everything. Read through the “it’s 2020 manage your data” thread that’s going here. Between that thread and the “Wind Rose/Try DOPE” posts, you have everything you need to be successful without dropping hundreds of dollars on electronics and wasting hundreds of rounds chasing shit.

Lastly, another great resource is the online training option here on the Hide. Try it out and you won’t regret it.

Thanks. I'm looking at these courses.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

There is a couple good training courses here in CA.

Looks like your on the right track. I'm planning to be at Los Altos range tomorrow if you would like help with anything.

Fyi, Friendly club match in Avenal next Sunday if your interested. Open or Prone. Super chill and they have a range you can stretch it out.

 

[Walter Haas]

There is a couple good training courses here in CA.

Looks like your on the right track. I'm planning to be at Los Altos range tomorrow if you would like help with anything.

Fyi, Friendly club match in Avenal next Sunday if your interested. Open or Prone. Super chill and they have a range you can stretch it out.

Thanks! Maybe next sunday on the meet but tomorrow is no good.

 

[Walter Haas]

Short answer: Yes there are lists of variables out there. Actually the other dude who commented on your post above is compiling a list of errors that can have effects. Without understanding what each means and why it does what it does, the list alone isn’t going to benefit you as much as it could. Go check it out though.

Longer Answer:
Don’t sweat it too much man. Just keep at least a solid 1 MOA zero at 100 and dial it in as close as you can to your POA. That’s it for now. Don’t fret the offset too much right now either. Put it this way, dudes have been running 1MOA elevation and 1/2MOA windage turrets on their M24’s MK4 optic’s for decades and they still continue to do so on various contracts. So you have these common situations where guys are aiming at the center of a 1” square but impact at the top right inside edge. If they dial down 1 adjustment value (1MOA) and left 1 adjustment (1/2MOA), then they are just flipping the impact to the bottom left inside edge. They were never able to truly fine tune the zero to an exact POA/POI. It’s just a matter of picking one, noting it, and running the gun to collect data. Don’t get wrapped up on the small stuff like that right now, as you can go down a rabbit hole that will distract you from what’s actually important...the basic fundamentals of marksmanship.

The best way to get started is to take a course from an instructor that knows what he’s doing and has the credentials to back it up. Hit up Frank, Modern Day Sniper, or Max Ordinate and get that solid foundation first (just to name a few but there are quite a few others that are solid. Go check out the training course forum on here). Then you can jump head first into the stack of knowledge that awaits. Otherwise you’re just setting yourself up for failure. Anyone can zero a rifle and shoot 1MOA groups at 100. Everything that comes after that is tied to it but requires a solid foundation to be truly successful.

Whatever you do, don’t get sucked into the electronics or the weird need to rely on em for everything. Read through the “it’s 2020 manage your data” thread that’s going here. Between that thread and the “Wind Rose/Try DOPE” posts, you have everything you need to be successful without dropping hundreds of dollars on electronics and wasting hundreds of rounds chasing shit.

Lastly, another great resource is the online training option here on the Hide. Try it out and you won’t regret it.

Been looking at a wide variety of training courses around the country and you know what they all have in common? They’re all a bitch to get to. Long range rifle ranges are just never located in high-value real estate areas near cities and major airports. You have to fly and then drive a long way.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Max ordinance is out between San Bernadino and Barstow.

Long Range Precision | Sniper | Max Ordinate Academy | United States

Long Range Precision | Sniper | Competion | Shooting | Max Ordinate Academy | LEO | Military | Southern California | Tripod | High Angle

www.maxordinate.com

 

[M8541Reaper]

Been looking at a wide variety of training courses around the country and you know what they all have in common? They’re all a bitch to get to. Long range rifle ranges are just never located in high-value real estate areas near cities and major airports. You have to fly and then drive a long way.

I know man, it definitely sucks. Treat it like a little 3 or 4 day vacation. Personally 10hrs in a car to go to one (or a weekend match) is my cut off. At that point I’d just fly. Either way, once you get the travel out of the way, the fun you’ll have at the course will counterbalance the travel hassle and the trip back won’t even bother you.

 

[Walter Haas]

Max ordinance is out between San Bernadino and Barstow.

Long Range Precision | Sniper | Max Ordinate Academy | United States

Long Range Precision | Sniper | Competion | Shooting | Max Ordinate Academy | LEO | Military | Southern California | Tripod | High Angle

www.maxordinate.com

I like the look of maxordinates range. I just missed their precision rifle 1 course. Even if they gave me a private course it would still be a one-off because they are so far away. I just posted an inquiry about Sac valley instructors. I could go out there once a week no problem.

 

[Walter Haas]

I know man, it definitely sucks. Treat it like a little 3 or 4 day vacation. Personally 10hrs in a car to go to one (or a weekend match) is my cut off. At that point I’d just fly. Either way, once you get the travel out of the way, the fun you’ll have at the course will counterbalance the travel hassle and the trip back won’t even bother you.

You reminded me that I'm not the only one with a logistics problem! I'm sure it'll work out one way or the other.

 

[Walter Haas]

There is a couple good training courses here in CA.

Looks like your on the right track. I'm planning to be at Los Altos range tomorrow if you would like help with anything.

Fyi, Friendly club match in Avenal next Sunday if your interested. Open or Prone. Super chill and they have a range you can stretch it out.

Just looked at google maps and Avenal is three hours from my house. Who is the club?

 

[M8541Reaper]

You reminded me that I'm not the only one with a logistics problem! I'm sure it'll work out one way or the other.

Dude I move every two years so even if I wind up with one five minutes from me, it is short lived lol. So I totally get your frustration.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Just looked at google maps and Avenal is three hours from my house. Who is the club?

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/avenal-tactical-2020-tentative-schedule.6976363/

 

[Walter Haas]

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/avenal-tactical-2020-tentative-schedule.6976363/

thanks!

 

[Walter Haas]

View attachment 7249798
View attachment 7249800^BallisticX app with the overlay showing you your ATZ (Adjust to Zero), aka what you’d need to dial in order to get yourself dialed into your POA. You obviously can’t dial the .05 difference, so you’d have to choose between .2 or .3 on elevation. Either way, you’ll be fine at this point. You also have your group size, which is .85 MOA, so good enough group size for ensuring a decent zero (so keep it up and it will get tighter). NOTE: All of this is based on 100yds and a .308. If you aren’t running that caliber, or the range was actually 102yds or 95yds, then the numbers will obviously change slightly.

View attachment 7249799
^BallisticARC app
Here’s where you’d put in the information so the computer can calculate your data. Too easy. The app also allows you to true your data as well, but that’s a topic for another thread thats been covered multiple times before...as has this, but I figured I’d try an help.

I hope I was able to give ya some answers that made sense.

Mine looks the same as yours but the MOA number is slightly different. Must be some tiny differences in how we chose the bullets. Yours is on top, mine below. Cool app, thanks!

 

[M8541Reaper]

Mine looks the same as yours but the MOA number is slightly different. Must be some tiny differences in how we chose the bullets. Yours is on top, mine below. Cool app, thanks!
View attachment 7251144
View attachment 7251141

If you’re shooting 308, then your 1” scale is off. The most important part on using the app is making sure you get a solid scale reference. When I did yours, I zoomed in to the left and used the intersection of the thin lines for a fine scale reference and not the thick lines. I’d your scale is off, then the impact ring markers won’t be the same size as your actual impacts, like you see with yours.

If you are using targets that don’t have any sort of scale or aren’t standard 1” or whatever you can either input the exact size in the app or place a ruler or tick marks on the paper before taking a picture.

 

[Snipe260]

I always go to shooting dime size dots when I get that close. I shoot one round per dot. After five shots I gather my middle of the group! I adjust from there as I want it to be dead center!

 

[Dthomas3523]

Don’t worry about what the measurements are on paper. No need to convert inches to mils or anything else.

If you were aiming at that bottom corner, put the center of the reticle there (or any other part of the reticle. Whatever is easiest for you).

Measure how high and right you are from you POA. Then adjust those measurements down and left.

You have a ruler in your optic right in front of you. Use it and don’t worry about how many inches, cm, or whatever you use.

 

[stello1001]

If you’re shooting 308, then your 1” scale is off. The most important part on using the app is making sure you get a solid scale reference. When I did yours, I zoomed in to the left and used the intersection of the thin lines for a fine scale reference and not the thick lines. I’d your scale is off, then the impact ring markers won’t be the same size as your actual impacts, like you see with yours.

If you are using targets that don’t have any sort of scale or aren’t standard 1” or whatever you can either input the exact size in the app or place a ruler or tick marks on the paper before taking a picture.

This!!!

I did it myself and my results are below...

I'll personally place a ruler so I can have some thing to reference on my app.

 

[M8541Reaper]

This!!!

I did it myself and my results are below...

View attachment 7251533

I'll personally place a ruler so I can have some thing to reference on my app.

View attachment 7251534View attachment 7251535

Yup yup.
If I’m shooting paper, my targets are printed to scale and have 1” references. Steel gets a ruler if I’m going to run it through Ballistic-X.

Don’t worry about what the measurements are on paper. No need to convert inches to mils or anything else.

If you were aiming at that bottom corner, put the center of the reticle there (or any other part of the reticle. Whatever is easiest for you).

Measure how high and right you are from you POA. Then adjust those measurements down and left.

You have a ruler in your optic right in front of you. Use it and don’t worry about how many inches, cm, or whatever you use.

Yep yep.
Walter, just make sure your optic is either an FFP or SFP on the correct magnification setting (see your manual if running a SFP). To get better at reading your reticle’s subtensions, measure it with your reticle and write down your reading. Then plop it into Ballistic-X to see if you were close. You can also practice this by running some of the Max ordinate drills

 

[308pirate]

Amazing info, thank you very much! I need to ponder this and download these apps.

You don't need to download any app. How do you think we did this before apps existed?

Learn the fundamentals without electronic crutches.

 

[Walter Haas]

Yup yup.
If I’m shooting paper, my targets are printed to scale and have 1” references. Steel gets a ruler if I’m going to run it through Ballistic-X.

Yep yep.
Walter, just make sure your optic is either an FFP or SFP on the correct magnification setting (see your manual if running a SFP). To get better at reading your reticle’s subtensions, measure it with your reticle and write down your reading. Then plop it into Ballistic-X to see if you were close. You can also practice this by running some of the Max ordinate drills

That's a good idea. Mine is ffp, its a vortex razor. I've been good about practicing my dry firing but bad about sitting down to do the thinking part.

 

[Walter Haas]

You don't need to download any app. How do you think we did this before apps existed?

Learn the fundamentals without electronic crutches.

That was actually my original question, how to calculate what needs to be calculated but then it turned to apps so I'm just going with the flow. My whole career as a semiconductor engineer, before I retired at 52, my friends and I looked down on these people using the iPhone who don't have a clue as to what's actually happening in hardware and software. Now I'm one of these dummies! I used to make the analog front end RF chips that went into the early iPhones up to the iPhone 5s.

 

[Walter Haas]

This!!!

I did it myself and my results are below...

View attachment 7251533

I'll personally place a ruler so I can have some thing to reference on my app.

View attachment 7251534View attachment 7251535

i’ll look at this some more when I get back from the rifle range this morning.

 

[308pirate]

That was actually my original question, how to calculate what needs to be calculated but then it turned to apps so I'm just going with the flow. My whole career as a semiconductor engineer, before I retired at 52, my friends and I looked down on these people using the iPhone who don't have a clue as to what's actually happening in hardware and software. Now I'm one of these dummies! I used to make the analog front end RF chips that went into the early iPhones up to the iPhone 5s.

You just need to eyeball the center of the group then make a correction from there.

Do you understand what people mean when they say use the ruler in front of your eyes?

 

[Walter Haas]

You just need to eyeball the center of the group then make a correction from there.

Do you understand what people mean when they say use the ruler in front of your eyes?

the reticle subtensions?

 

[308pirate]

the reticle subtensions?

Yes. You don't even need to get up off your rifle to measure what just happened 100 yards away.

Measure with reticle, adjust turrets (in the same units as the reticle), fire again.

Takes less than 30 seconds to do.

 

[M8541Reaper]

::Cough Cough - Post #3 - Answer to Question #1 - First Sentence - Cough Cough::

 

[seansmd]

Just looked at google maps and Avenal is three hours from my house. Who is the club?

plenty of us in the Bay Area that are members, sign up for the club match, and take up @2aBaCa or some of us others locally up at Los altos. I was there on Saturday morning.

 

[wade2big]

You don't need to download any app. How do you think we did this before apps existed?

Learn the fundamentals without electronic crutches.

Man I’m glad you said it. I was reading through this thread and after seeing all the apps, offsets, and rulers, it was a relief to come across your post. Thank goodness.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Man I’m glad you said it. I was reading through this thread and after seeing all the apps, offsets, and rulers, it was a relief to come across your post. Thank goodness.

See posts #3, #9, and #34.

Only reason I even mentioned the apps, which I also stated should not be relied upon and are not needed, was so a new and untrained shooter could confirm what he’s seeing on paper. You have a shooter who doesn’t fully understand his equipment or the process. Telling him “.2 down, .2 left, send it” will result in a hit but won’t teach him anything. Instead of continuing to wing it, he can start to teach himself adjustment values and confirm his guesses with the app.

Wait, you’re against new shooters using rulers too? A ruler is a great tool to get new shooters used to visualizing how their adjustment values translate to the UOM they’re using. With a ruler you can show that shooter what his mil adjustment’s value looks like in inches/cm. Or was it not necessary to be precise when learning/training to make adjustments in precision shooting back in the day?

I would never advocate for relying on tech, let alone tell a new shooter to rely on it. By using one, he has the ability to accurately check himself until he gets out to a class.

Or we could just keep it at the advice of “.2 down, .2 left, send it” that way others can share the same old stories about how “there was some guy at the range today who couldn’t even zero his rifle.”