zeroing not at 100 ?
- Thread starter DevinL
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If it is a medium/large game hunting rifle and you want maximum point blank range something closer to 200 yards might be appropriate.
Really depends what you are trying to achieve.
Really depends what you are trying to achieve.
Excluding rimfire. 100 is just easy and it keeps things simple vs having 5 guns with 5 different zeros. Zero at 100 and move on to more important things if you go hunting and know you’ll be shooting 0-250 yards dial .5 and leave it
100. If you ever compete or take a class everyone will be presuming a 100y zero. It's just easier to share info or understand instructors if your zero is at 100.
agree - 100. Since most people zero at 100, communication is simplified - everyone is running with the same assumptions. If your team wants to use a different zero that is okay but just remember, other teams will probably be zeroed at 100.
There is no benefit to a non-100-yard zero. If you find yourself in a place where all of your shots are between X and Y, dial half-way between X and Y and hold or, just hold. This is why scopes have have reticles and knobs.
That is a load issue unless there is something wrong with the rifle. No reason that boat tail bullets shouldn't zero at 100 yards or group well.
Are you implying that those bullets cannot group or fly "stable" at 100 yards so you're considering doing a zero at longer distance?
Oh boy!
What makes you think that bullets which are flying off and out of a straight path from 0 to 100 will then fly back in to a straight line after 100 yards?
As mentioned by others, you probably have bad load or maybe some thing else is off. But whatever it is, if your groups are bad at 100, they will only be bad after 100 or worse than bad with longer distances.
If you are getting bullets going sideways at 100 then there is an issue with the barrel twist to bullet weight/length and it's not stabilizing. You could zero at 1000 yards and it would be worse.
that 36 yard zero is great for a battle rifle like an ar-15. because of the small spread from 25-300 yards.
i don't think it really matters but if you are shooting precision or testing loads i would do 100 like everyone else.
i don't think it really matters but if you are shooting precision or testing loads i would do 100 like everyone else.
Seems I've read (in reloading manuals maybe?) that flat base bullets tend to be at peak accuracy/consistency at shorter ranges than boattail. This maybe has an influence on your subconscious mind, causing you to think that flat base bullets are "more accurate" at close ranges. If you want to experiment with different bullets/styles then by all means go for it. That's what reloading is all about to me. Just don't be fooled into thinking a load that's "innaccurate" at 100 yds is going to be "more accurate" at any longer distance. JMO
50 for everything. No need to go farther. You have total control, human error is almost nil and any decent ballistics package can solve for any range
You have the exact same chance for human error at 50 as you do 1000.
Human error is human error and angles are angles.
The errors just show up as smaller linear measurements at 50. But the errors are the exact same.
(and with 50, you can run into the issue of a zero stop and dialing down. Hence another reason for 100.)
Let me disagree, the errors are hardly the same, just think about reticle alignment with the target grid. I agree that for some setups you may encouter certain limitations, but again, if the zero is X inches up/down, any decent software will account for that as long as it deatures zero height and zero windage.
Again, you’re wrong. Canted reticle is a canted reticle. You can keep it just as level at 50 as 100z
Disagree all you want. We’ve done the research 1000s of times. There’s many reasons we use 100.
Who was talking about canting...did I mention it?
And not...I'm not wrong, you are because you are thinking human error is the same but it's not, fact of life. Been there many times too. If you like 100 no problem...I like 50 and I do real ELR for the sake of this thread. Seems to me you are missing the real purpose of what a mechanical zero is vs a ballistics zero.
Another common wrong practice, who says you need to do that at 100? And it's very easy to show why it's the wrong approach for as long as your minimum parallax allows for a closer distance.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but when you setup a scope, specifically the eyepiece (diopter), you do it at infinity distance, and looking at a solid colour (cloud, blue sky, etc) on maximum magnification ?
I would deduct also that anyone shooting true ELR often zero at Futher distance than 50m. How the hell would you dial out to say 2500m if you are zero'd at 50 ? Hell, one rig of mine often zeros at 400m, so I can do what I want for the day.
Aim small miss small, go big or go home ?
I would deduct also that anyone shooting true ELR often zero at Futher distance than 50m. How the hell would you dial out to say 2500m if you are zero'd at 50 ? Hell, one rig of mine often zeros at 400m, so I can do what I want for the day.
Aim small miss small, go big or go home ?
I’m going to make this real simple. Don’t go pushing bad info here.
Or you’ll find a very hard time logging in.
But, you can enlighten us why you think you have outsmarted Bryan Litz, @lowlight , etc etc. on why we use 100yd zero.
Edit: nvm. You brought up this incorrect theory that shooter error is somehow less at 50 than 100 back in 2017. You got shot down then. You’re getting shot down now.
Edit: nvm. You brought up this incorrect theory that shooter error is somehow less at 50 than 100 back in 2017. You got shot down then. You’re getting shot down now.
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The point is, it wouldn’t be reliable at 100yds if there was as much human error as you claim.
I have a 280 Ackley Improved that I fire 140 gr Berger VLD's at 3250 fps. It is my "go to" rifle for most of my hunting. Mainly deer.
It's zeroed at 272 yards because that gives me +1.5" at about 100 yards and -1.5" at about 315 yards. I do have exact dope on the sticker I have on my rifle stock, but just giving the general idea. I also have other ranges, verified by shooting, written on that card. It's right on the money out to 850. I have not really tested at farther distance much. However, at the vast majority of ranges I tend to find and shoot deer, it's no thinking involved...aim and shoot...or as the wife says, point, click, boom. haha I don't dial with this rifle/scope combo but do use the reticle for holdovers.
Every other rifle I own is zeroed at 100 (ETS: except my rimfire stuff) and dial according to the dope card I have for each rifle. I rarely use any of these for deer hunting.
One I do use for coyotes and such that gets more use and I either dial or use the reticle to hold over.
I cannot wait for this component shortage to end so I can feel more comfortable using up what I have.
It's zeroed at 272 yards because that gives me +1.5" at about 100 yards and -1.5" at about 315 yards. I do have exact dope on the sticker I have on my rifle stock, but just giving the general idea. I also have other ranges, verified by shooting, written on that card. It's right on the money out to 850. I have not really tested at farther distance much. However, at the vast majority of ranges I tend to find and shoot deer, it's no thinking involved...aim and shoot...or as the wife says, point, click, boom. haha I don't dial with this rifle/scope combo but do use the reticle for holdovers.
Every other rifle I own is zeroed at 100 (ETS: except my rimfire stuff) and dial according to the dope card I have for each rifle. I rarely use any of these for deer hunting.
One I do use for coyotes and such that gets more use and I either dial or use the reticle to hold over.
I cannot wait for this component shortage to end so I can feel more comfortable using up what I have.
Keep in mind, you can accomplish the same thing (but without having to set up a target at a random range you got from software) by zero’ing at 100yds and then dialing in your 272yd dope.
Yes...I am aware. In fact, I first zeroed at 100 during load development and such. But this scope is a lightweight Swarovski and dialing requires removing the cap and a dime (or screw driver or what ever). I always figured I'd zero at 200 because of the my ancient beliefs and experiences. HAHA!! Yep, I've been doing this for a while now. But when I checked the Litz software, it showed a PBZ (with a 12" diameter target) at something like 325. I didn't like 12" so I decreased the target size to be minute of coyote and settled on 272 yards. Then I shot a bunch at our local range and then a bunch of rocks using my Gunwerks range finder. THEN I wrote it all down in sharpie on a waterproof sticker. It's been good for several years now.
Edited to say that I often will shoot coyotes even though I am supposed to be deer hunting. I like shooting coyotes...what can I say?
Nice way to shut up anyone who thinks different, great attitude to "win" a debate. I've been a SH member way longer than you...only difference is you are "staff"
LastShot you want to zero centerfire at 50 then go for it. I don't as I don't want to go below my zero. With 100 yards anywhere you go is up from 10 yards to 1000. Just makes life easier than worrying about going under the zero. Also as has been proven for many years a 100 yard zero is fine for both external weather effects or human error. But again your rifle and your choice.
Rob, you raised up a good point, that's it weather effects, yes as we all know the farther you go you need to tell your software the zeoing conditons vs the actual conditons. Having said that, the closer you are the better. All of my S&B scopes can be parallax adjusted at 50 but I recon that for some other it must be a problem to cope with. As for human error, it's clearly a lot easier to get a picture perfect of the target and reticle. I'm not against the usual 100 yard zero, but there is a reason why so many people is asking the same question over and over again. I do ELR, so a computer is a must, so I go for a very easy to get mechanical zero that's less affected by atmospherics than at 100, most specially when you go over 2000. Anyway, like you said, my rifle, my choice.
Some scopes can go down to 25 yards or even 10 so why not zero there? Will take away even more of the conditions that make a 50 a better way than 100. 
Also they are asking because they are new and don't know any better.
Also they are asking because they are new and don't know any better.
Context is key as always. You can do whatever you want with your rifle.
But don’t go telling people 50 is less error than 100.
But don’t go telling people 50 is less error than 100.
So atmospherics are less at 50m than 100m ? From my understanding, temperature, pressure, humidity dont change that much in 50m, nor does wind. 2000m yes atmospherics change, so do you run down range, get readings, and only then fire with a solution ?
I'm a real nucklehead - normally zero at the normal range, but my primary competition rifle is zerod at 215 yards. This is for one specific purpose - I shoot team matches (as secondary shooter), and this makes my fast 223 bolt gun match dope with the primary within 0.1 mil out to a respectable 850 yards. The only reason for this zero, is so we are shooting ONE dope card instead of two. We don't have to remember which card to read corrections or try to make two separate software profiles.
The downside, as mentioned earlier, is the zero stop and remembering to dial/hold down on closer shots (it rarely happens on the matches we shoot).
The downside, as mentioned earlier, is the zero stop and remembering to dial/hold down on closer shots (it rarely happens on the matches we shoot).
This may be the first reason (besides turrets requiring a penny or screwdriver) I can find no real fault in.
Bravo
You got it backwards, It's all about how the zero shifts with a longer zero range and its influence down range. Up to some point you don't need to deal with zeroing conditions vs actual conditions, but as the zero range goes farther you need to account for the difference if you are into LR and conditions swinged enough to matter. On the other hand, the primary reason for a zero is not elevation but windage thus a shorter zero range allows for a much more precise way to call apart shooter errors, otherwise you are inducing a lateral deviation that may add to down range wind, SD, etc. Elevation is a non issue because your software will take into account. Of course in the context of LR o ELR. If you are into 3 gun matches or hunting, 100 yards may be the ticket.
No.....atmospherics at 50 vs 100 aren’t a factor. This is another of the many reasons we use 100yd.
Proven 1000x over.
You’d have to have about a 20mph full value cross wind to have a difference of .1 mil from 50 to 100.
Shorter zero doesn't make sense. Easier to see shooter error ? More precise ?
That's like suggesting shorter sight radius on pistols is better, which is wrong.
Let's take things to extremes. Zero at 10m and zero at 500m.
10m will be a tiny ass group. A 10 shot group should be 1 hole. A 10 shot group at 500m will be open. Even a 1/4moa group will be open.
It's easier, MUCH easier to see group dispersion with the naked eye. It's easier to see bias in you group (vertical football, horizontal football, etc) and if your group is truly poa/poi (precision or accuracy).
I read somewhere benchresters changed to 200m competitions as 100 was too close and they had trouble determining winners. They weree measuring groups with microscopes to get group sizes and measure poa/poi reliably. Pushing to 200m made it easier.
Longer is better. It's more precise and consistent readings.
That's like suggesting shorter sight radius on pistols is better, which is wrong.
Let's take things to extremes. Zero at 10m and zero at 500m.
10m will be a tiny ass group. A 10 shot group should be 1 hole. A 10 shot group at 500m will be open. Even a 1/4moa group will be open.
It's easier, MUCH easier to see group dispersion with the naked eye. It's easier to see bias in you group (vertical football, horizontal football, etc) and if your group is truly poa/poi (precision or accuracy).
I read somewhere benchresters changed to 200m competitions as 100 was too close and they had trouble determining winners. They weree measuring groups with microscopes to get group sizes and measure poa/poi reliably. Pushing to 200m made it easier.
Longer is better. It's more precise and consistent readings.
We deal in angles.
So, if the angular target size vs the reticle is the same at 50 and 100, the shooter error is the same.
You can only hold as still as you can hold (dependent on what bags/bipod/rest etc).
If I have .05mil wobble with bipod/bag, I have .05 wobble no matter what.
The exception would be if something for example the reticle angular to linear measurement was larger than the target so you are not able to create a fine enough hold.
So, if the angular target size vs the reticle is the same at 50 and 100, the shooter error is the same.
You can only hold as still as you can hold (dependent on what bags/bipod/rest etc).
If I have .05mil wobble with bipod/bag, I have .05 wobble no matter what.
The exception would be if something for example the reticle angular to linear measurement was larger than the target so you are not able to create a fine enough hold.
We are talking different things here, you talking about dispersion, not my point or did I ever mention group size?. So you saying it's easier to assess human error the longer you go? Regarding group bias, how can you tell apart when it's human error or simply a reticle misalignment during the sight-in procedure? Why not 200 then? How can be 100 more precise and consistent? One more time, I'm talking about the zeroing process as a whole, not load development, BR competitions or anything else. In the end, there is no right answer, since much of this comes down to personal preference or tradition. On the other hand, my mention to atmospheric conditions influence was clearly taken out of context, since it's pretty much obvious that the net outcome is essentially the same for 50 or 100 or even better I don't care because my software is always set to use sight-in vs current conditions in case the swing is big enough to worry about the zero shift.
