NRL Hunter One
- Thread starter Forward543
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That looks like Stage 14 to me. Where Jim See was RO'ing. That first target was tough to see from prone.
Is there a problem here?
If he bought the gear with hard earned money, and carries it during the Match, I have no problem with that.
If he's able to set up, and make hits on target before he times out, I give him credit for preforming the task successfully.
That was 14, I shot that stage from my tripod. I tried prone and couldn't see the first target at all. I was an RO with Jim See on that stage, Pynch and Alwine made it look easy.
Unfortunately not, I get a pass to go to 1 big match a quarter, and already signed up for Central Coast Chaos. Sounds like it'll be a good neutral venue without too much local knowledge.
I dont think you are wrong, these are shooting competitions that should benefit each other and all of us. I will continue with precision rifle and Hunter matches.
If someone shoots a Hunter match, they will see the guys winning are all precision rifle guys. Shooting is just a small part of these matches. If you can easily build a position anywhere, for a relatively easy shot, you can use your extra time to get your operating procedure down.
Precision rifle really hammers position building. The rifles suck for much else, besides tree stands or varmints. Hunter match rifles are nicer to pack, and have more mustard. They are both badass for us as shooters, and I think they will grow each other as long as we dont drama the experience so bad as to kill it for new guys.
I think you raise some good points Sir. I did not mean to imply that PRS is useless at building applicable skills. In practicing for PRS matches over the last several years I have become a more competent rifleman. As you said, learning to build a solid position on, and especially off, your belly is a skill that translates to many situations. So does precision reloading. I happen to be in the position where I carry a rifle for work and have felt more confident with a carbine and LPVO from the skills I gained at building solid positions in uncomfortable and stressful situations.
That being said, I think the practicality of NRL hunter is obvious, especially the weight of the rifle. Many companies are catering to both long range hunters and NRL competitors with lighter weight components for precision rifle builds; from stocks to barrels to chassis, etc. The lighter weight makes these rifles more practical to be used in the field for hunting because they can actually be carried and shot off-hand effectively. People are getting practice shooting lighter rifles they actually can and do hunt with. Can you hunt with your 6mm gee-whiz 23 lb rifle? Sure, from a tree stand 100 yards from the truck. Not many are actually doing anything more than that though.
How much recoil difference is there between a 10-12 lb 6.5 PRC, 7 SAUM or even 6.5 Creedmoor and a 23 lb 6mm BR? I can tell you after shooting my PRS weight 6GT, going to a 12 lb 6.5 Creedmoor and 7 SAUM made me realize how spoiled I was getting. With lighter rifles the shooter has to really pay attention to follow-through, adjust gear, possibly add a better muzzle brake and focus more on all the fundamentals to connect. Those are all going to translate to better hits on game animals. It's no surprise that most PRS top shooters are winning NRL matches, they have mastered the fundamentals of shooting, reading wind, performing under stress and getting the most from their gear. Most will say they are far better hunters because of skills learned in both games but more of those skills seem to be employed with the NRL format.
The military is paying attention too. There's a reason that PROOF carbon barrels won a .gov contract. I think military and LE snipers could benefit from both PRS and NRL matches but what is going to provide more practical experience for what a miltary sniper is LIKELY to encounter in combat? A sprint with gear that raises your heart rate, some time pressure of a clock, finding targets under stress through glass on a blind stage, ranging said targets, doping your own wind and then building a target card and plan on how to engage the targets from awkward positions where movement may be required to see them all? Or having 20 minutes to watch your whole squad shoot a PRS barricade while on glass with the targets having been pointed out to you and getting to observe others shoot through glass before your turn? I like PRS, I think it makes people better positional shooters and learn to call wind and reload better but the format of the NRL and the gear make it more practical and applicable to both hunting and sniping.
It's not an accident that two of the biggest advocates of this exact change are Frank Galli and Scott Saterlee. They're both dudes that spent time in the military doing it for real and have been wanting to get back to something like NRL, like how precision rifle matches started 20 or so years ago. Scott is a dude that has ties to the Special Forces community and the hunting community. The reason he started the NRL matches was that he looked at his safe of PRS guns and knew he'd never use them on a hunt.
With all due respect, go start a match that simulates a "real hunt." People can hike 9 days and take a shot on 1 target IF they find it first. First person to shoot the steel wins, the other 150 guys are disqualified because only one person gets to kill and eat the deer. I'm sure there will be a lot of boot companies lining up to sponsor those matches and it will be wildly popular.
Obviously there's a lot more to hunting than NRL. I'm sure you could teach me a thing or two with your extensive hunting experience. (not being snarky, I'm sure you could). I know I'm planning to carry my NRL rifle into the field this fall for Elk and Deer. Having the exact rifle I have shot hundreds or thousands of rounds through playing games on the clock will make me more confident when some big bruiser steps out at 475 yards for sure.
I was RO on 6 and 13 and that was not 6. As mentioned looks likey 14
This is WAY more practical than PRS/NRL open as it limits the blatant CHEATING. No wind stealing. No positional ideas cheating. No getting others ranges. No finding targets. no super squads. No watching 20 guys hoot a stage to see how to do it best. Saying hunter is more practical than PRS is an immense understatement. And I still really enjoy PRS matches...
There is no "gaming" because its all your ideas. There is no limits or gear restrictions on the stage as everything you can carry and deploy in 4 min is allowed. I love watching people over think a stage and timing out because they incorrectly think, as mentioned as naseum in this post, that you can buy better positions in the leader board with better gear. You buy better positions by practicing finding, ranging, and shooting targets both at your home range and by shooting matches.
I shot a factory tikka and factory 143 ammo on a 500$ tripod and sig rf. I had my second in a row top 4 overall shooting factory class (AZ and OK)
Ive never won a 2 day match but I love to shoot. #midpackshooter
This exactly proves its not a gear race. Which I think new shooters need to see AND which is my intent of shooting factory.
Arguing it isnt practical because you can buy better equipment in a competition shows a very lacking knowledge of competition in general. This is taking off because its addresses what the PRS wont address - super squads. wind sharing. etc etc. the avg shooter is sick of giving up 2 pts+ PER STAGE to the super squad.
The NRL Hunter was handed a very easy to implement and fun format of a match by Satterlee when the first one was put on couple years ago in Cameo, CO. I was there. It had nearly 200 people. The NRL will kill this the same as the NRL open was killed if they listen to the redic whining of people to "cater to everyone".
ITS WORKING - Dont change the format. Factory ammo address all the concerns anyway. Anyone can buy it and PF doesnt even matter.
If you dont like the rules go shoot PRS. The 20 lb rifles and getting free wind hide your crutches better anyway. The hunter series is about making you a better shooter. Embrace it...or dont.
Regards
DT
...I literally have no idea what you are getting at?
I shot the match this weekend in Washita and it was probably the most fun Ive had at a NRL hunter match. Lots of steel and easy to find lol. I guess Im weird, but when I go to a shooting match I want to shoot. Not spend all my time looking for targets and getting no shots off. Impossible to find targets is how you get people to not come back.
YMMV
DT
I probably phrased it poorly...
It was a joke at one of the stages amongst some competitors; that the folks who are getting so bent out of shape about this not being "real hunting enough" .... Someone said "when I go real hunting, I walk around all day and then take two shots as its getting dark", and it sucks.
I thought it was a great balance of fun, shootable targets at reasonable ranges. There is still the scale up potential for everyone, but not so impossible that new shooters can't have some fun.
And the best part about the format is that you have to find the targets, figure out your position, on the clock and on your own. I had a million misses the first day when my rangefinder quit working. I thought it was the snow. It was really the battery, and I had a spare in my backpack the whole day like an idiot. Lesson learned. Cold weather and a weak battery, not snow reflections.....
I have zero desire to shoot matches that give me match books and ranges, or have wagons of stuff. I think the series borrows some great components of the CD matches, and look forward to shooting more of them.
@D_TROS
Can you please elaborate this scenario of shooting and ROing? Does this mean you RO'd a stage after you shot it, or that you shot the CoF at a different time or something? I'm trying to glean as much info as possible about these matches before I shoot one of them soon.
Thanks.
RO's can shoot the entire COF the day before the match starts. They run through the stages just like a regular competitor.
I believe RO shoots Friday and then RO Saturday and Sunday
Scores count. Penance for shooting as an RO is you have to shoot the entire match in one day. It's an extremely effective way to get more and better ROs.
That was my first and only "Hunter" match so far and it was awesome! That was a tough two day, 102 degree weather, smoke from the forest fire and sprinting up those dry dusty hills. I was impressed with RO's for doing all 20 in one day.
I actually zeroed the stage you RO'd because the targets were hard to find...and your American Flag shorts were REALLY short, lol. I think you placed top 10 with a sub 12lb 7mm-08 if I remember right?
Congrats on your recent finish. Hope to shoot with you again, we'll have to get Ziggy out to practice one of these days.
NRL Hunter does a very cool thing of allowing RO's to shoot the match the friday before and your scores count for the match. IF you RO they trade your help in liu of paying to shoot. ie paying the RO's...one of the biggest problem the shooting sport faces.
Almost 6 years ago I mentioned to the PRS board to require anyone shooting for season points to RO at least one match...I was shut down sadly.
This is incentive to get shooters like me to help out with the match. Better RO's make for a smoother run match.
There is a downside. Shooting 20 stages in one day is very taxing. AND the worst part is after about 3 oh clock the sun comes down and is right in your eyes. It has cost me at almost every match I have done this at. As the match is designed to be done before 3, ending at 6 for the RO's never crosses their mind...nor should it. Still sucks but at least we can help and shoot.
I was 4th overall in AZ and 2nd overall in OK with my tikka. One was good for 1st factory and one 2nd factory and both scores counted towards the overall match ranking. Again as mentioned I shoot factory so people can know that you dont need to dump 10k on a custom carbon fiber rig and swaro to be effective.
If you have any other questions please ask.
regards
DT
I shot the match in Oklahoma on Friday as an RO. Being an RO let me see how all of the shooters and teams managed their time and how they overcame obstacles differently. I did better in the morning than I did in the afternoon as I am not in that great of shape and am nursing a back issue. @D_TROS drove through the night and somewhat slept in his truck to make it there Friday morning, so if anyone has an excuse for Friday, it was him.
I enjoyed the experience and hope to shoot another NRL Hunter match. This match showed me that losing 25 lbs and getting in shape is important for me. That being said, I will shoot my next one over a two day period instead of all in one day.
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I have a question regarding shooters not being able to watch others shoot a stage. The NRL hunter match I shot, you could watch shooters build positions and game off of that. Were people able to see Pynch shoot off of the tripod and bipod; or was he blocked off from other shooters? Do you think people have a chance to share wind calls and target locations on the side?
What's that triple pull ckye-pod cost?
Are you insinuating that had Pynch NOT used a trip pull he would not have won?
and on the other hand, if the shooter in say 10th/20th/30th place had a triple pull they would have won?
the sad part is the let down of these complainers after spending all that $$$ and they dont put the practice in that pynch does that they didnt win...and are still in 10/20/30 place. top shooters could shoot a tripod on every stage and be fine.
Couldnt disagree more
I asked Satterlee that exact question. You know his response? RO the match then!!!
I lold and agreed.
99/100 times its substantially harder to shoot the whole match in one day. Dont let that 1% ruin good help.
MD's need to man up and quit getting pushed around.
GL
DT
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On the two stages that I RO'd, 14 and 1, we had two trucks that kept other shooters from seeing what was going on at the shooting position. I can tell you that no one else shot those stages like Pynch and Alwine. On stage 14 on Saturday, we didn't have the second truck for 6-8 shooters, and it negatively affected the guys who followed someone that decided to shoot the stage from a tripod in the standing position. It was almost comical and sad at the same time, kind of like lemmings jumping in the ocean. I almost rolled my truck trying to get it to a place where the guys waitng couldn't see what was going on.
After I moved my truck, guys started thinking for themselves and we started seeing guys clean the stage again.
The rules are clear. Share wind, talk about targets, look for targets, glass in direction of stage and a couple others is a MATCH DQ. No other league stands up against this BS.
Now do people cheat is another issue. At least the hunter spells it out. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that no matter what people will cheat the weight or velocity or other issues (sharing wind/tagets with friends) and if cheating is that important to them...well I dont think any restrictions will stop them. Im not going to let my fun weekend worrying about that tho...
Its on the MD to ensure you cant see the shooting position from the staging area. If you can then there is nothing you can do about that but the intent is to come into the shooting position completely blind. Certain positions you just cant help it.
After you shoot the stage you walk to the next stage to prevent any communication with people in your squad. If the MD doesnt hide the shooting position from the staging area thats on them. If terrain doesnt allow this they prob shouldnt be putting on a hunter match. Petty easy to do tho with any natural terrain to speak of.
Regards
DT
The easiest thing to do is (wait for it…) just not the watch the guy shooting a stage before you do. I mean, it’s in the rules…
This is exactly the reason I shoot the skills division. I want to test my skill against me. I’ve yet to see anything on a prize table worth cheating for.
Good question...and I really am accusing no one of cheating nor have I seen anything I would call someone on. Im very surprised people think people cheat every match. I am very observant and have seen nothing to write home about. It takes some special negativity to be so negative all the time.
CD is blind match. Staging area is behind trees. After you shoot a stage you move to next stage. Exact format that NRL Hunter uses and intended to copy. CD has been putting this style match on for like 20 years. Ive never heard of anyone cheating but its so hard to do with a little prep from MD in staging area.
The only cheating Ive heard is people changing score cards.
GL
DT
Shooters are staged away from the actual shooting location. After a shooter finishes the RO calls up the next one. Usually natural screening or vehicles were used to block the shooting from the staging. Teams have to use quiet voices to communicate to avoid accidentally contaminating shooters waiting back in the staging area.
The shooter is called up to a stake, RO confers with them, then time starts. Shooter runs up to the shoot location on the clock and gets to work.
After shooting, shooter clears the stake and packs up their stuff. They might get to watch the next guy for a second but they really need to be hiking on to the next staging area, which probably has a couple of guys waiting to shoot the next stage. They don't get to walk back to the staging area for the stage they just shot.
I'm insinuating that a gear queer saying don't worry about gear is:
I don't disagree with what your message is, just pointing out that it's humorous coming from a dude with $8k of shit with him at a match.
You're still my boy, blue
8k worth of gear? What are you poor?I'm insinuating that a gear queer saying don't worry about gear is:
I don't disagree with what your message is, just pointing out that it's humorous coming from a dude with $8k of shit with him at a match.
You're still my boy, blue
I'm insinuating that a gear queer saying don't worry about gear is:
I don't disagree with what your message is, just pointing out that it's humorous coming from a dude with $8k of shit with him at a match.
You're still my boy, blue
touche lol. im a total gear queer. I have no other hobbies you know this. but i refuse to buy 1500$ tripods or $3k binos and carbon fiber everything. OTOH, im perfectly fine with those that do. just hate when people say you have to do that to be a winner OR the hunter is nothing but a gear race.
the whole point of these matches, competition dynamics included, is not long range small targets that the PRS thinks it has to become. its find, range, engage generous targets by todays standards and do it with everything stowed and BY YOURSELF
Im just pointing out to the troll that you can be extremely competitive shooting cheap stuff
also pointing out to the beginner you dont need to dump $8k to be competitive. factory shit can and has won matches. I think factory should be pushed more as the MD's and BOD sure love getting that rifle sponsor fo the series but dont want people shooting cheaper factory stuff?
shooting comps should be an individual sport. and just because it doesnt say no wind sharing in the rules doesnt mean its not cheating in other leagues. Good on Hunter for calling it cheating. MD's have been wrestling with how to eliminate that for years. even PRS finales have had differing formats to eliminate this (including shotgun starts and leaving staging area direct after shooting - the shotgun start was a fiasco) I think they come to feel its an acceptable low pt and moved on.
CD has found the fix years ago. So has hunter now. and Hunter IS taking off. Why else would they start a series if noone wanted to do it? that doesnt mean PRS is dying. PRS is awesome. I shot the first PRS match. there wasnt wind sharing back then. 60 competitors or 200 says verry little about the general consensus. When PRS started 40 peeps was a very good showing. Also, Hunter is more physical and PRS you can now use a golf cart to go from stage to stage to carry your gear of course its going to have a higher attendance. that being said, I sure hope both leagues are going strong in 10 yrs.
I am for absolutely zero change, but if there is one, it would be as mentioned, reward higher PF/lighter rifles with higher pt value, essentially eliminating the want for people to shoot smaller calibers...but doesnt the current PF already force that?
Regards
DT
This i agree with... you don't have to do it. Plenty have and won't see any difference. I think certain pieces of gear are probably always going to be a little advantageous, problem is everyone views that like they can take advantage of the difference and most can't.
What you pay for the Steiner LRF binos?
Here’s the match I was at. Everyone could basically see 2 stages ahead of them and 2 stages behind them. I saw some things that made me scratch my head but I enjoyed shooting it anyways.
D_tros how much is your hunter setup? Do you reload? When you say you can be competitive shooting cheap stuff or you don’t need 8k to be competitive; does this also apply to Prs?
Attachments
Right. When the match location doesnt allow blind stages, there really isnt much you can do. Putting a truck in front of shooting position is your best bet. Thats what I did. Helped some.
I have shot all 3 classes. I am, as pointed out from @LawnMM , a real deal gear quer.
I like shooting for heavy open a 6.5x47 26" heavy palma with 130 bergers for my open heavy in a xlr magnesium with added weights on it with a triple pull bipod. Scope is a Burris XTR3 5-30. weight 15.5 lbs (best finish 3rd heavy)
My light rifle is same magnesium stock shooting a 7mm-08 22" light palma barrel shooting 168's berger hunters with xtr3 3-18 and a double-pull ckye-pod and xtr3. weight 11.9 lbs (best finish 2nd light)
The factory rifle is a total budget compared to the open rifles. The Tikka T3x with xtr3 and a magpul bipod (you can find a tikka t3x with threaded barel from $800-$1500 pending model and the bipod is $100). I attached an arca rail to the sling swivels in the forend to shoot off a tripod or I just put a bag on the tripod as its wiggly. and put a mini FB brake on (make sure your factory rifle has threaded barrel). its in 6.5 creed. I have not reloaded for this. the ammo is factory 143's. it shoots but Ive been fighting elevation issues. not sure whats going on. weight 11.5 lbs (best finish 1st factory)
stuff I use at every match:
the Rocky Mountain tripod company (a USA - Denver, CO company) is my tripod. they are like $700. I have a RRS ball head on my tripod but also have a couple other heads I switch between. Im worrking with Rocky Mtn tripod to design a better ball head but its slow going. I rarely shoot off a tripod and prob should practice it more.
For binos I use the sigs. I really like these because they have a scan feature thats useful when trying to get a tough range.
I use a pump pillow for rear rest. its large but light. i have also carried the Wiebad fortune cookie as its nice when I throw it on my tripod to glass from and shoot from.
Ive shot from full retard to factory. I like Light open the best. But I like factory also as I have more family time because I dont reload. I like factory as Ive been able to show you can be competitive with what factories have been putting out and go against the narrative you dont need an open gun with a ZCO and a triple pull to win a match (and I see alot of those!). I also just shot out my 6.5 barel and ran out of 168 bullets. so this year or until I order a new barrel and some more bullets - factory it is.
eta: PRS is special. I dont want to go into it anymore than the previous 6 pages lol but define competitive? top 20 is pretty darn salty in PRS these days. To be there you are going to need to shoot at the bare min weekly till your skills are up to par. even then its easy to drop off. now when you say $8k, the alternative is factory class? factory class is a complete joke as they allow full customs now. the only way they can salvage any credibility there is to make a weight limit or drop the $2500 down to $1500 where it should be. but using GAP's factory rifle is by far the most economical way to be competitive. Put on any combo of a NF, Luppy, Bushnell, Burris scope in the 1500 range, and a haris or Atlas, and the limiting factor BY FAR will be you. So looking at$4k can be vey competitive. For 99% of us.
GL
DT
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They can shut the fuck up. That happens in every shooting sport that has multi day matches and there's no way to even it out.
USPSA has had ROs shoot the major matches the day or two before all other competitors for like.....forever. Sometimes they get a nice day to shoot while the weekend crowd swims in rain, sometimes the other way round.
The RO's at the Nightforce ELR match last year had to shoot in 60 MPH winds while the rest of the shooters had beautiful conditions. It goes both ways. Heck there was thundersnow and near whiteout conditions for a little bit last year at Buffalo Bill's Revenge NRL Hunter when the ROs shot.
I just want to put it out there that I shot the match last weekend with about as gucci of a setup as you can get and I still got humbled by guys with "worse" gear than me along with some guys with stuff about on par with what I was shooting. The game is still about being efficient, ranging accurately, and knowing your dope well - those are skills that can't be bought.
As far as people being upset about how "blind" things really were, thats just lame to be upset about it. We were lucky to have the ranch to shoot on and the course of fire was what it was. It's not as if one person had blinders on but the next could see what was going on - it was an unavoidable but equitable imperfection of the circumstance.
These are games made to make you a better shooter and god forbid have a little bit of fun.
As far as people being upset about how "blind" things really were, thats just lame to be upset about it. We were lucky to have the ranch to shoot on and the course of fire was what it was. It's not as if one person had blinders on but the next could see what was going on - it was an unavoidable but equitable imperfection of the circumstance.
These are games made to make you a better shooter and god forbid have a little bit of fun.
There will never, ever be a "blind stage" in a match. The sooner that gets abandoned the easier life will be
Yup. Key word. These are games, not simulations or re-enactments.
You will never be able to keep the stage a complete secret
And what is even the point? That blind stage stuff has been tried many times before in pistol competitions. It always ends up creating flow bottlenecks and it prevents the ROs from shooting the match which means you will get nobody to volunteer to run it.
Obviously people can find a way to cheat and I dont think the intent of any stage design is to eliminate cheaters (as you mentioned its impossible) but to have a fun match. As you mentioned this is truly a game and the $$$ involved is so small it limits the desire for almost all to even want to cheat.
That just opens the door of negative nancys saying I wont shoot a match because people cheat. Well....bye. Im still going to go have some fun.
NRL Hunter has been running blind stages pretty successfully for nearly 2 years. Never once a backup and plenty of volunteers so far. That being said ALL MD's have volunteer issues. Thats why Im so for shooting on Friday. Pay the RO's. And for the most part there has been zero to no complaints of cheating (ie looking/seeing targets/shooting positions ahead of time OR sharing wind). With a little prep and having some terrain with trees/rocks/hills its easy to make a blind stage.
If someone wants to text their friend the target locations and wind...well that sucks but Im not worrying about it. Should we not try blind cause someone might cheat? as opposed to the alternative with NO blind stages people WILL cheat (that is if you think shooting matches should be individual.)
YMMV
DT
There is a difference between competitors discussing stage strategy and cheating, at least in my mind.
My rifle background is National Match shooting. Unless a match is clearly designated in the program as a team match, there is no coaching of shooters allowed. When you're behind the rifle, you and only you can make the wind and elevation calls to make the hits. No one behind you can help you, that is cheating according to both CMP and NRA rules. That is not the same as discussing what you saw with friends or team mates either before or after the fact.
Stages in USPSA are clearly not blind. And shooters freely discuss their stage plans and strategies on certain targets (movers for instance). And yet when the timer goes off no one can help you from behind as that kind of help is cheating according to USPSA rules.
Stands (stages) in NSCA sporting clays are clearly not blind. Shooters there also freely discuss how they're going to attack each presentation. Not cheating there either.
The fact that people in other individual shooting sports aren't kept in the dark and aren't forbidden to share what they know or think with other competitors has not hurt competitive equity in the decades that those three examples have been functioning as shooting sports.
If the NRL Hunter wants to be different, so be it. As you can tell I don't agree.
I was interested until I learned about the blind stage concept. I have experienced that in other shooting sports and I'm not a fan.
Mostly academic because the Great Lakes region is a rifle wasteland
