He was in charge of bringing shovels, rakes, and implements of destruction.....
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June 25, 1876
Battle of the Little Bighorn
Custer's Last Stand by Edgar Samuel Paxson
Battle of the Little Bighorn
Custer's Last Stand by Edgar Samuel Paxson
Those Gatling guns sure would have come in handy about 30 minutes ago..... Leave them in the fort..... They'll just slow us down....June 25, 1876
Battle of the Little Bighorn
Custer's Last Stand by Edgar Samuel Paxson
They didn't carry their sabres, either. Dunno how much that would've mattered, but if it came down to hand-to-hand I'd rather have a few feet of sharp steel than an empty carbine.
Not sure a Gatling Gun would have made a difference as both sides were intermingled according to passed down testimony of Indians. Repeating rifles and bows and arrows won the day for the Indians.
Sending troops into battle with single shot Springfield carbines against an enemy armed with Winchester Yellowboys and Henrys was stupid.
The Gatling would definitely have made a difference once “the last stand” perimeter was created and the column collapsed into a fire sack.
But if you have never walked the battlefield, you don’t understand that it is not just a park with a smooth hill on it. All around are gully’s and streambeds and washes and high grass…. Perfect country for horses and cavalry. But very very bad for wheeled Gatling guns and the numerous limbers needed to feed them.
Little Bighorn Was not a planned battle for the Cavalry. They were in a patrol and a show of force and Custer intended to attack an encampment— an offensive deployment. Gatling guns were not offensive weapons. They were rampart and perimeter weapons. Cavalry technique was to ride in and form a skirmish line attacking the encampment or enemy force. Not set up Gatlings.
But, Custer became the defender after Reno stirred up the hornets nest. And Custer didn’t listen to his scouts about size of opposition or comprehend it their strong organization and motivation.
He has always been criticized for not bringing his Gatling guns. But a. It was not that kind of mission. b. Not only would they have slowed them down, they could not have maneuvered at all in that terrain. c. Custer failed at such an epic level that Gatlings were the least of his compounded errors.
The argument could probably have been made that if he brought them, be never would have ended up at Little Bighorn. Maybe true. But that is the thing about complex battle analysis. You can always find a couldda, wouldda, shouldsa and then pin the outcome on that. Trace the Butterfky effect back far enough and there is always some thing that folks pin the outcome on.
Actually, Custer screwups were mainly in his pre-battle Intel (he ignored it) and his assumptions about the enemy (size and capability and intentions). Once the battle started, he ran a fairly masterful defense.
The again, so did de Castries at Dien Bien Phu. And Heinriki and Student at Berlin. They just had no way to win against the numbers and force moving in on them.
But, yes, in the pocket defense at little big horn the Gatlings probably could have saved some troopers if they had enough ammo. But that like saying “If we had all our air cover up over Pearl Harbor, the Arizona would have been afloat today.” Yup. Probably. But that’s not how history rolled the dice that day.
Cheers, Sirhr
Ps. Go visit Little Bighorn. It is an amazing place in the middle of a lot of other amazing places!
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I bet that the oil return is outstanding.
Not necessary at this point but outstanding none the less
I've yet to visit Little Bighorn but that is the no. 1 spot on my to do list. I may have to do it alone because my g/f asked "...Why?" and I'm not going to be rushed or put up with rolling eyes or the "I'll just wait in the truck" bullshit.
I've studied that battle for years, and am finally getting a grasp of it. I think Custer was self disillusioned about his inflated super powers ever since he routed the larger Confederate cavalry at Gettysburg, which in my opinion, may have helped win the battle. However, his big medicine didn't work on Sitting Bull and the other chiefs at Little Bighorn.
I've never seen a Gatling gun being used live but it always impressed me as an unwieldy, robotic weapon for one person to run. It was designed to work on a level battle field against a mass charge such as Picket's charge but not for pop up and disappear targets on hilly broken terrain such as Little Bighorn.
If Custer's men had full auto M4s, AKs, fighting shotguns and lots of ET-MPs to toss down the hill he may have stood a chance.
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Note the coal smoke is blowing to the front of the ship and the sails are full......
At best you had a pony motor that might keep you in place when the current is going the other way and there is no wind.
When you visit...
Spend about 2 hours at the visitors center. Then put on a ruck. Get plenty of water. And spend the next day and a half not only walking the battlefield, but driving it. Remember, the 'battlefield' was encampments 15+ miles away. Cavalry actions were not infantry actions. Cavalry could cover 100 miles a day. Not easily. But they could do it. The battle 'space' that ended with the stand at Little Bighorn is immense. More the size one would expect in a WW2 armored action.
Also, it is the only national battlefield where the headstones are placed exactly where the troopers fell. You can see the 'pockets' where they were herded in and reduced. You can walk out hundreds of yards (in one case a couple of miles) and find graves where 1 or 2 or 3 men tried to escape as a group or solo from the perimeter and were run down and killed by the Indian horsemen. You can 'feel' the battle unfolding much better than on many battlefields where there may be some markers. But the graves are remote and all lined up.
Once you get a mile or so from the park.... even the grass fights you. You step into unseen ditches or chuck holes. It looks smooth and undulating. But under it all is some totally savage dirt and terrain.
Geographic determinism is a major force in history, especially military history. Terrain shapes the battle. Such a good example of it at Little Bighorn.
Cheers,
Sirhr
PS. Gatling Gun was a 4 - 6 man crew. Plus they travelled with 2 - 3 limbers each. So that meant horse teams for each gun and limber. And horsemen to manage those. Then an officer or NCO in charge. Then a loader, and an operator who worked in shifts. And extra men for the setup and digging in as well as security ( infantry and cavalry charging cannon positions was common). A Gatling battery was an artillery battery, for all intents and purposes. So... not one guy by any means. And a definite burden to a cavalry company.
Magnuflux it. Might not go all the way through, might still work.
Bought a double edge that had been restored - a 1950s Gillette - they got no money and I buy blades 100 at a whack - not Gillette - though I did love their Blue Blades that came in my trial pack.
Fuck them.
There wasnt much hand to hand unless one of the Native Americans was looking to make a name for himself in the pictogram record.
Basically the worlds greatest light cavalry decimating heavy cavalry that was using their animals as breastworks.
Underestimating the enemy was stupid.
The equipment was a secondary issue.
As usual politics played a role.
When your scouts start making peace with their God its probably a sign you should be considering things a little bit.
Anyone want to sit on the plane next to the guy as he "cleanses" his earthly vessel in preparation for acceptance into heaven?
Heavy emphasis on this.
The desolation and smallness you feel there would only be absolutely infinitely magnafied if you couldnt see the worlds shitties gas station, macadam roadway and a bunch of fat tourists trying to hobble around on the pathways.
100 Lbs of Gatling Gun. 250 lbs of carriage. About 5 lbs per stick of loaded ammo. Drum of ammo about 50 lbs.
Cheers,
Sirhr
The numbers ruled, thousands against hundreds. Battle was decided before it was fought.
At mid-day on June 25, Custer’s 600 men entered the Little Bighorn Valley. Among the Native Americans, word quickly spread of the impending attack. The older Sitting Bull rallied the warriors and saw to the safety of the women and children, while Crazy Horse set off with a large force to meet the attackers head on. Despite Custer’s desperate attempts to regroup his men, they were quickly overwhelmed. Custer and some 200 men in his battalion were attacked by as many as 3,000 Native Americans; within an hour, Custer and all of his soldiers were dead.
Battle of the Little Bighorn ‑ Location, Cause & Significance
The Battle of the Little Bighorn, also called Custer’s Last Stand, marked the most decisive Native American victory and the worst U.S. Army defeat in the long Plains Indian War. It was fought on June 25, 1876 near the Little Bighorn River in Montana Territory.
www.history.com
BTW, it was not just Custer and his ego...
Battle happened in June 25th and into the 26th in 1876.
At the time, America was having an orgy of self-loving as it got ready to celebrate its centennial. The West was being won. The Savage was being pushed into reservations as settlers opened the wild frontier. The industrial Revolution was in full-swing. Post Civil War, the American manufacturers in the East were running 24 x 7 and were beating England in production. Even the South, after 10 years, was finally getting back on its feet and rebuilding an economy.
There was NOTHING America could not do... and do better than anyone else.
The psychological blow of "Custers Last Stand" was an utter shock to the American Public. How could an entire American Cavalry unit be snuffed out by a bunch of bug-eating savages? It was as bad as Tet. Or the wake-up calls of Tarawa and Kasserine Pass. "We got this" was suddenly replaced with... "Oh shit, this is going to be harder than we thought."
Also, to cover a disaster, you need a hero. So, Custer got turned into a hero. Paintings glorified him and his valiant men in their Last Stand. And the rout became a testament to American heroism and sacrifice at the hand of godless heathen savages. Justifying 'any means' to root them out of the Dakotas. Oh, yeah, because there was Gold in them thar hills. Also, Custer's widow got rich as all hell promoting his memory and selling off anything "Custer" she could get her mitts on. As long as she lived, she promoted his memory and his ability to make big bucks as a corpse!
Anyhoo... it's a great battle to study! But the lead-up and the aftermath are possibly more important to American history.
As this is fun stuff and cool memes, not history... Here is one of my favorite tributes to Custer.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Custer wasnt a total idiot that he is made out to be.
Much of that is 60s counter culture and America is bad. Bring on Dustin Hoffman and Little Big Man. Shit that movie was the start of introducing overtly gay characters into the historical record as being the majority in culture.
Custer fought war the way it sometimes has to be. Keep in mind an election, a convention, troubled political times, aspirations for power.....the mess we are in without the internet and the overwhelming surveillance state. Our present highway cameras out on the cross roads would have told Custer "Enemy has big Medicine"
Read "Digging into Custers Last Stand" by Sandy Barnard, for an archeological evidentiary record of the battle.
Read "Crazy Horse and Chief Red Cloud" by Ed Mcgaa, for some background on the Sioux. Mr. McGaa is a Sioux and his perspective was not entirely appreciated amongst some of the tribe because his approach is not taking on the role of "victim". He was laso a USMC Vietnam F-4 pilot and thus had a warriors perspective and more than many others rightly understands what Native American culture was all about for that reason.
Driving through the Crow reservation was tough especially as I was doing it when Hillary had planned to bring 10,000 syrians into the country a month. I was like what the fuck are we bringing them in for when we could be cleaning up the worlds shittiest gas station?
Right?
Both excellent books, BTW.
And, yes, in addition to all the self-adulation of the Centennial... are all the things you mention as well. Throw in a massacre at the hands of Injuns, and you have a political football of epic proportions!
Cheers,
Sirhr
The initial purpose of machine guns, and in some ways a lost art of employing them, is as indirect fire weapons.
They were developed in the age of volley fire and it was until someone said "Hey what if we point it right at them and sweep the area at their knees" and the masses of troops to make that worthwhile, than the idea of the machine gun as flat trajectory weapon gained its killing value.
Firing 1000 rounds at 20-30 spread out moving enemy was not cool to bean counters.
Its the same reason why the cvalry troopers had single shots.
A good one.... always makes it a bit dusty when you hear it.
Sirhr
That video clip should show the doubtful how powerful a bull bison is.
He picked that other 2000lb critter up like a sack of potatoes.
Thanks Sirhr,
The fact that the headstones or markers mark where each casualty fell is one of the most important features of the battlefield. One could then put it in motion.
The troops were rode down, exhausted by Custer's pace by the time the battle started and most were in poor health to began with; mostly Irish, German, Swedish immigrants suffering from a litany of chronic ailments of the working poor including rotten teeth and premature degenerative disc disease.
"Benteen, Come on. Big village. Be quick. Bring packs. PS Bring pacs" Famous last words.
There was an excellent documentary a few years ago on the History Channel that I was trying to find an excerpt on and came across this. I'm watching it now and it's petty good.
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The reasoning to that is ironic and goes against the basic rule of horse warfare. The European culture stalled at the 98th Meridian or roughly the eastern edge of the Great Plains because white men didn't know how to fight as a light cavalry. Single shot rifles were no match for a mounted Plains Indian and his bow.
Thats why Samuel Walker teamed with Sam Colt to come up with the Colt Walker that gave him a repeating weapon to fight from horseback without having to dismount to reload.
Reno showed the fatal weakness of the single shot rifle when he ordered his troops to dismount to fight Indians on horseback.
Single shots weren't much better against Human Wave attacks, either. Isambulwana was a massacre. Roark's Drift was almost a massacre... and had it no been propagandized with medals and glory, would have caused the British Government to fall.
Zulu is just one of those great movies... hard to find anywhere any more. It's been cancelled.
Sirhr
One of the huge issues that I read with the British was the process it took for the men to get ammo. The Brits were very methodical on how they handed out ammo (VERY slow), and it wasn't timely if you were a front-line solider burning through it.
Movie showed a bit of the issues
Too be fair and accurate, not all the Indians closing in on Last Stand Hill were mounted. Many were crawling up in the tall grass to fire Henrys and Winchester and of course arrows.
For a people that lived in the "stone age" how in the wide world of sports did they get steel for them spear points? Asking for a friend.
Exactly... @pmclaine made a really insightful comment above when he mentioned Heavy Cavalry vs. Light Cavalry. Custer was definitely heavy cavalry. More like mounted infantry. Which was how they fought. Come in on horses, dismount and skirmish as infantry.
The natives were light cavalry and stayed on their horses. They were fast, agile and heavily armed. And supported light (very light) infantry. Their unmounted braves. Custer became a fixed, dismounted position surrounded by a much greater moblie force. Yeah, not a good day in Mudville.
As true light cavalry, it was hard to match the attackers on that day!
Sirhr
Was George Custer’s body mutilated after the Little Big Horn battle?
Was George Custer’s body mutilated after the Little Big Horn battle? Paul Hughes Vacaville, California Historians still struggle to corroborate or
truewestmagazine.com
Trading for centuries... With Arabs. The Dutch. The Spanish. The Portuguese. The English. The French. The African Continent had been carved up into colonies for at least 2 centuries when Isambulwana occurred. And as with the Argentinians and their Exocets... a French Pimp will sell anything to anyone. Come to think of it... so will any colonial power.
How many spear points for an ivory tusk? For a lump of gold? For working in a diamond mine. For... a boatload of your neighboring tribesmen who were hot property in Jamaica and Charleston?
Dang... After 1600 or so, the French were supplying iron arrow points, tomahawks, knives and all kinds of goodies to "their" indians in Quebec. And the English were handing out iron stuff like candy after establishment of ports like Boston, Portsmouth and New York.
Also, the Zulu's at Roark's Drift had all the rifles and ammo looted from the 1000 or so British troops wiped out a couple of days before at Isambulwana.
Cheers,
Sirhr
As they are suggesting sending their legions of retards into small towns….
Boowah hahhaahahaha…
Sirhr
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