Vudoo Gun Works V-22 Rimfire Bolt Action

[RAVAGE88]

If Vudoo wasn’t making actions in house then I don’t see this whole closing thing a big deal.

Move to OK, farm out actions like has been being done, send them to impact precision or CRB for barrel work.

Call Foundation for a stock and your back in business lol.

Seriously what were they actually making in house and not sourcing out?

Yo Dude, what you're asking is reasonable, but I have to admit, when I saw your tag line (Giver Of Bad Advice), I had to chuckle as I thought about how to answer this. And I mean that in the most fun way possible.

You're correct, Vudoo hasn't made actions in house, but there's a point where they should've been based on what @TheOE800 referred to as "supply chain resilience." In other words, due to the way Vudoo operated, the company was never sustainable. A number of people have made comments about the "new ownership" not paying the vendors for two months, but this wasn't new or exclusive to the "new ownership."

Vudoo had a longstanding history of not being able to pay vendors and the payables to the action maker were always ridiculously high (from more than $500,000 to $800,000). So, the action maker openly labeled himself a "defacto" investor and further inserted himself way too deeply into what Vudoo came to be (pistols). So, as I said in a prior post, the new CEO did not "run Vudoo into the ground."

That's the history, now to answer your question....Let's say the investment is made to move the company to a new state and all the administrative overhead is accomplished, the lights and machines are turned on, people are in place, but the approach is as you describe. What has actually been accomplished? Nothing. Vudoo would still be a middleman for certainly one "defacto" investor and because he was successful as a "defacto" investor, how many more "defacto" investors would there be?

Sounds like a continuance of the misery that led to the demise....

MB

 

[Baron23]

the action maker openly labeled himself a "defacto" investor

Ah, yeah....I get to ask the ignorant question....who was this action maker/de facto investor? Is it still a guarded secret?

 

[RAVAGE88]

Ah, yeah....I get to ask the ignorant question....who was this action maker/de facto investor? Is it still a guarded secret?

No sir, not a guarded secret at all. Instead, it's common knowledge for many that the vendor is ThreeSigma Manufacturing in Washington.

MB

 

[TheOE800]

That’s half as many sigmas as should be required!

 

[RAVAGE88]

That’s half as many sigmas as should be required!

It's likely there were only three of them when the company was formed.

The bottom line is, there's far more to the story, and frankly, it would highly surprise many if the whole story was out. However, there's a line I won't cross, as I still choose to have some respect for the past and current players. I will also remain true to the fact that I won't celebrate what is a hardship for at least of couple of them. The ultimate goal is to focus on what's next, and moving toward it.

MB

 

[Baron23]

I won't celebrate what is a hardship for at least of couple of them.

I love this attitude....schadenfreude...taking pleasure in others misfortune....is indeed very low down.

The ultimate goal is to focus on what's next, and moving toward it.

I applaud this positive attitude and wish you the very best of luck.

Cheers

 

[Emerson0311]

No sir, not a guarded secret at all. Instead, it's common knowledge for many that the vendor is ThreeSigma Manufacturing in Washington.

MB

Do they do other actions also?

 

[RAVAGE88]

Do they do other actions also?

Don’t really know, but what I do know is, based on the testimony of being a “de facto investor,” he’s relabeling the Three60 for others. I have no knowledge of any of the arrangements, but there were past threats, and maybe follow-through, of doing this with parts from other companies, so the pattern of behavior is alarming.

Again, DEFTI contracted a terminal illness, and was then murdered.

MB

 

[Emerson0311]

Don’t really know, but what I do know is, based on the testimony of being a “de facto investor,” he’s relabeling the Three60 for others. I have no knowledge of any of the arrangements, but there were past threats, and maybe follow-through, of doing this with parts from other companies, so the pattern of behavior is alarming.

Again, DEFTI contracted a terminal illness, and was then murdered.

MB

Interesting. Clone Rimfire actions shouldn’t surprise up I guess. Like Antler arms, or any carpenter that decides they are a general contractor.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Interesting. Clone Rimfire actions shouldn’t surprise up I guess. Like Antler arms, or any carpenter that decides they are a general contractor.

Very true, but for a high-end niche company, it's dilution. And worst yet, it was allowed by the owners (I spoke against it) and its at the heart of my initial disengagement and ultimate departure. But what I discovered later was, it was far worse than I thought. I'll not venture further on that topic though.

But, I'll say this because of another of the testimonies from the action maker. He stated, within a small group of people, and personally, I heard this from him a few times, "I'd screw over my own mother for money." I'm paraphrasing because he used slightly different words, but as it relates to actual application, he's the tick that doesn't fall off, hence the significant dilution, but it was allowed.

Ultimately, the two components that, when standing alone are horrible, but when mixed are certain death, is dishonesty and greed. I'll not outwardly apply either to anyone specifically, but my point is, the mixture of the two was the terminal illness that infected DEFTI. Dilution was the weapon used to murder it.

As an example, when Vudoo started giving certain business away, it was because the community was being ignored. The Custom Shop should have been organized inside Vudoo, operated by Vudoo, and I presented this numerous times. To not continue to support what it meant to serve the community on a higher level and make it known that Vudoo would continue to innovate was the worse form of dilution. The fast twist barrel project is another prime example. So, where, by design, was Vudoo to go besides down and where would the ticks go but up?

MB

 

[Krob95]

@RAVAGE88 im sorry, really stupid question. DEFTI? Acronym for?

 

[Williwaw]

I've also wondered about the background for 'angled spade'.

 

[RAVAGE88]

@RAVAGE88 im sorry, really stupid question. DEFTI? Acronym for?

Not a stupid question at all and I'm surprised it hasn't been asked yet. DEFTI is something we always referred to but never talked about outside our little team as a means to set ourselves apart from how things were conventionally done. In total, it's was a mindset, an approach, that means Don't Even Friggin Try It. It was something for us to be proud of and nurture by way of what we believed and protected. For quite a while, it was supported at all costs and the one to first threaten DEFTI was a sales guy; he was terminated because DEFTI didn't mean to him what it meant to the rest of us. But then, dishonesty and greed, followed by the allowed dilution. It was literally death from within.

MB

 

[Short Round]

It’s been a long long time since that thread about 40x repeater conversions. I remember posting in that and ordering a second or maybe it was my first 40x from CMP then.

I did finally swing the cash to buy a Vudoo as my personal retirement gift. I still have that 40x and 40xb too.

Thanks for building the dream and sharing it. I hope you have more successes!

 

[BowChamp]

Not a stupid question at all and I'm surprised it hasn't been asked yet. DEFTI is something we always referred to but never talked about outside our little team as a means to set ourselves apart from how things were conventionally done. In total, it's was a mindset, an approach, that means Don't Even Friggin Try It. It was something for us to be proud of and nurture by way of what we believed and protected. For quite a while, it was supported at all costs and the one to first threaten DEFTI was a sales guy; he was terminated because DEFTI didn't mean to him what it meant to the rest of us. But then, dishonesty and greed, followed by the allowed dilution. It was literally death from within.

MB

What effect did venturing into true benchrest competition like ARA, with the V22S, have on Vudoo.

It seemed the powers to be pulled back pretty hard after you parted ways with Vudoo.

Thanks!

 

[RAVAGE88]

What effect did venturing into true benchrest competition like ARA, with the V22S, have on Vudoo.

It seemed the powers to be pulled back pretty hard after you parted ways with Vudoo.

Thanks!

The BR venture was to be part of the Custom Shop run by Vudoo but with the involvement of Ivan Wells on the BR side. The plan was good, Ivan did his thing and it was showing a lot of promise. The path was designed to lead the way to an American designed and made positional rifle based on earlier work that the U.S. Olympic Training Center showed a lot of interest in.

They did back away from it.

MB

 

[beetroot]

What about teaming up with a current action manufacturer that’s not in the 22 game already? Would that make the business model easier or harder?

Its about time for Accuracy International to get into the precision 22 game.

That could only go well....

 

[whatsupdoc]

Maybe the Mad Greek Scientist at ARC to get into the rimfire game.

 

[Kadams1563]

So essentially VGW was a drop shipper. Lol

 

[David Lott]

So essentially VGW is a drop shipper. Lol

Not exactly, no one sells a complete 360 other than Vudoo because no one makes a complete ready to go action.

 

[RAVAGE88]

So essentially VGW is a drop shipper. Lol

Not purely. Although they lacked any modicum of vertical integration and didn't actively manufacture anything from raw materials, they did engage heavily in producing a final product. But being 100% dependent on a supply chain that had wagging-the-dog down to a fine science, it was just a matter of time.

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

Not exactly, no one sells a complete 360 other than Vudoo because no one makes a complete ready to go action.

MPA has Three60s with their name on it, so what is sacred and unique to Vudoo about it? Aren't you going to have the same actions with your name on them?

MB

 

[BowChamp]

The BR venture was to be part of the Custom Shop run by Vudoo but with the involvement of Ivan Wells on the BR side. The plan was good, Ivan did his thing and it was showing a lot of promise. The path was designed to lead the way to an American designed and made positional rifle based on earlier work that the U.S. Olympic Training Center showed a lot of interest in.

They did back away from it.

MB

Slow down there MB, 3 edits and I'm having trouble keeping up. Is this your final answer. LOL!! The second had the most information.

It doesn't take a psychotic to notice the difference. Just watch your and Paul's videos explaining things about the Vudoo action. One has a meh....this is what it is...... over tone to it. The other has passion and general knowledge .

My first ever and only benchrest rifle is a Vudoo V22S. I consider myself lucky to have gotten it before things fell completely apart.

I do thank you for making it possible!!

 

[Hgrubbs22]

I’m curious why Vudoo chose not to manufacture any products, instead just being an assembler. Granted, it is a hell of an assembly.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Slow down there MB, 3 edits and I'm having trouble keeping up. Is this your final answer. LOL!! The second had the most information.

It doesn't take a psychotic to notice the difference. Just watch your and Paul's videos explaining things about the Vudoo action. One has a meh....this is what it is...... over tone to it. The other has passion and general knowledge .

My first ever and only benchrest rifle is a Vudoo V22S. I consider myself lucky to have gotten it before things fell completely apart.

I do thank you for making it possible!!

Sorry Dude, yes, final answer. I went back and read what I wrote and it felt like I was a little too close to the line that I want to remain respectful of.

I enjoyed doing those videos and happy you're pleased with your V22S.

MB

 

[Brookky]

I own a vudoo Gen 2 from 2018-2019 somewhere in there. I was looking to get another one. Mike if you come up with a new action I would definitely be on board for a new one.

 

[BowChamp]

Sorry Dude, yes, final answer. I went back and read what I wrote and it felt like I was a little too close to the line that I want to remain respectful of.

I enjoyed doing those videos and happy you're pleased with your V22S.

MB

Best way to be Sir. Don't let any of us drag you somewhere you don't want to go.

If by chance you're ever digging around in some old boxes one day and happen to find an action wrench for a right bolt left port V22S, I'd sure like to have one. It's the only extra I didn't get before all this went down.

Thanks
JP

 

[RAVAGE88]

Best way to be Sir. Don't let any of us drag you somewhere you don't want to go.

If by chance you're ever digging around in some old boxes one day and happen to find an action wrench for a right bolt left port V22S, I'd sure like to have one. It's the only extra I didn't get before all this went down.

Thanks
JP

I have a few action wrenches, I'll take a look tomorrow and let you know.

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

I’m curious why Vudoo chose not to manufacture any products, instead just being an assembler. Granted, it is a hell of an assembly.

I'll navigate through this one the best I can and to be completely fair, it wasn't as much a choice as it was an underlying ailment. Based on this ailment, P&J did the absolute best they could; they worked hard, treated people and customers well, but they stuck with what had no chance of improving the lower right corner of the ProForma.

MB

 

[Hgrubbs22]

That’s unfortunate, with a proven product, it seems that a business could find an appropriate investor that could help with that part, instead of a defacto.

 

[RAVAGE88]

That’s unfortunate, with a proven product, it seems that a business could find an appropriate investor that could help with that part, instead of a defacto.

You would think, but the proven, existing, products isn't all that typical investors are interested in. First, they want to "buy revenue," but of course, they want to know what the path is to making even more, and that begs the question, what new products are in the hopper?

Not a big deal for a company that has value spread equally across the existing ownership, but that wasn't exactly the case while I was there and you add the debt on top of that. So, Vudoo was difficult to invest in. The latest transaction was an asset purchase, not an "investment." There was no product roadmap that was part of a Forecast/ProForma, but instead, a check cut based on a valuation of assets with the plan to be business as usual with what already existed and P&J now working for a new CEO.

MB

 

[Hgrubbs22]

Hence “appropriate investor”. Deep pockets with love of sport and time to devote to the above mentioned topics. Money will come just not necessarily at the speed a typical investor needs.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Hence “appropriate investor”. Deep pockets with love of sport and time to devote to the above mentioned topics. Money will come just not necessarily at the speed a typical investor needs.

100% correct, Dude.

MB

 

[Hgrubbs22]

Really appreciate the history lesson. Definitely an interesting story. We will have to wait to see if there’s going to be another chapter or if it ends up being a new book.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Really appreciate the history lesson. Definitely an interesting story. We will have to wait to see if there’s going to be another chapter or if it ends up being a new book.

Absolutely, and either way, a new book is in order....

MB

 

[David Lott]

MPA has Three60s with their name on it, so what is sacred and unique to Vudoo about it? Aren't you going to have the same actions with your name on them?

MB

The MPA deal was through Paul Parrott not direct with the manufacturer.

 

[RAVAGE88]

The MPA deal was through Paul Parrott not direct with the manufacturer.

Ok, but think about this for a moment. A marking variance was done with a vendor that makes actions, not with Vudoo, whom has never made actions. So how, again, was Vudoo not a middleman for the action maker? And when is it ever wise to create your own competition, especially since margin for Vudoo had to be so incredibly small (or none at all)?

So, did Paul/Vudoo make the arrangement because it was best for Vudoo or best for the action maker? It's the true definition of dilution, especially noting the apples to apples comparison on their websites. The MPA is cheaper than the Vudoo.

MB

 

[CroweMan]

So this is really interesting…first, there is another option coming to the states: the deuce 2.0 by IBI.
A&J sporting will be importing them, and they are taking preorders on their website currently. Second, and relevant to the conversation, is a statement made in this clip at shot show. It’s mentioned “vudoo…if you can get one…there are some things going on there”…prophetic maybe?? Time mark in the video is 5:29 for the statement in particular.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

This is getting more interesting by each and every post. I will add that the Vudoo I ordered in January 2024 and received in April 2024, is by far and away, the nicest firearm that I have owned, so someone, somewhere was doing some good work. Further, the folks I dealt with were extremely consumer oriented. Times change, but sometimes, I wish they wouldn’t.

 

[Lilsnoop]

The MPA is cheaper than the Vudoo

Mike,

Can you explain that comment? Phil from MPA refers to the action they have for their rimfire builds as Vudoo 360 Elite action and their rifle builds seem to be shooting well from what I've read or observed on YouTube. Just curious if you meant they cost less than what Vudoo Gunworks charged? Thanks

 

[TDWilson]

The last three pages have been a whole lot of hang-wringing and some mild blame-casting. It has been mildly interesting, but not really that informative for those of us who are unfamiliar with the rimfire action market. Some of us simply shoot rimfire competitions. As a total outsider but also an end user who is ordering additional product, will any of this upheaval at Vudoo impact the end-user market? And if so, then how?

 

[pballkm21]

Mike,

Can you explain that comment? Phil from MPA refers to the action they have for their rimfire builds as Vudoo 360 Elite action and their rifle builds seem to be shooting well from what I've read or observed on YouTube. Just curious if you meant they cost less than what Vudoo Gunworks charged? Thanks

They are cheaper in price point. Look at a like for like build - vudoo will cost more.

 

[pballkm21]

The last three pages have been a whole lot of hang-wringing and some mild blame-casting. It has been mildly interesting, but not really that informative for those of us who are unfamiliar with the rimfire action market. Some of us simply shoot rimfire competitions. As a total outsider but also an end user who is ordering additional product, will any of this upheaval at Vudoo impact the end-user market? And if so, then how?

Availability will not be there for an unknown period of time.

 

[Williwaw]

The last three pages have been a whole lot of hang-wringing and some mild blame-casting. It has been mildly interesting, but not really that informative for those of us who are unfamiliar with the rimfire action market. Some of us simply shoot rimfire competitions. As a total outsider but also an end user who is ordering additional product, will any of this upheaval at Vudoo impact the end-user market? And if so, then how?

I think the whole impetus for all the hand wringing is that nobody knows.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Mike,

Can you explain that comment? Phil from MPA refers to the action they have for their rimfire builds as Vudoo 360 Elite action and their rifle builds seem to be shooting well from what I've read or observed on YouTube. Just curious if you meant they cost less than what Vudoo Gunworks charged? Thanks

Sure....Not "cheaper" as in the action is any less quality or doesn't shoot well, but if you compare built rifles on the respective websites. Look at the Apparition on the VGW website and the comparable rifle on the MPA website. The MPA sales price is less.

So, Vudoo makes next to nothing on the sale of the action, plus, they lose a sale of a rifle to competition that's using Vudoo's action. So who are the beneficiaries? The action maker and MPA.

Does it matter at all if Paul is the one, according to @David Lott, that made the arrangement? No, it's completely irrelevant.

MB

 

[Lilsnoop]

Sure....Not "cheaper" as in the action is any less quality or doesn't shoot well, but if you compare built rifles on the respective websites. Look at the Apparition on the VGW website and the comparable rifle on the MPA website. The MPA sales price is less.

So, Vudoo makes next to nothing on the sale of the action, plus, they lose a sale of a rifle to competition that's using Vudoo's action. So who are the beneficiaries? The action maker and MPA.

Does it matter at all if Paul is the one, according to @David Lott, that made the arrangement? No, it's completely irrelevant.

MB

Ah, makes sense. Appreciate the reply. Had me worried for a second. I have an MPA Matrix Pro on order with them since the end of January. After all of the news about Vudoo Gunworks, I was worried about extractors, springs, firing pin replacement parts for it. I also bought a V22S back in Feb 2022 from Vudoo Gunworks and that thing shoots great. I look forward to your next rimfire action should you purse that venture.

 

[RAVAGE88]

The last three pages have been a whole lot of hang-wringing and some mild blame-casting. It has been mildly interesting, but not really that informative for those of us who are unfamiliar with the rimfire action market. Some of us simply shoot rimfire competitions. As a total outsider but also an end user who is ordering additional product, will any of this upheaval at Vudoo impact the end-user market? And if so, then how?

Your opinion is noted and certainly always welcome, but to the contrary, there's been no hand wringing (a feigned exhibition of distress without a plan of action) or blame casting (assigning fault to someone else). In fact, there's been a non-emotional presentation of facts in response to questions from a community that has a lot of people that have invested their hard earned dollars into a company that has disappeared with nothing more than veiled comments from third parties about what's allegedly happening in the background.

If one were to take a moment and look more broadly across various forums and social media platforms, one would see how far spread the legitimate concerns are; 1) because of the uncertainty about their invested dollars, and 2) because of the very real impact to the end user market, i.e., nothing has been shipped from Vudoo nor is there an advertised plan that outlines whether anything will ever ship. This is where your decision is impacted about what product you buy next.

These people are your fellow competitors, whether familiar with the market or not, and they deserve to know. You may have also read in numerous places within the last three pages where I've advertised, in a non-distressed or emotional way, that there's a line I will not cross out of a maintained level of respect for the past (my former biz partners) and current owners.

Hopefully, this helps add some perspective in various areas that benefit your future decision making.

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

Ah, makes sense. Appreciate the reply. Had me worried for a second. I have an MPA Matrix Pro on order with them since the end of January. After all of the news about Vudoo Gunworks, I was worried about extractors, springs, firing pin replacement parts for it. I also bought a V22S back in Feb 2022 from Vudoo Gunworks and that thing shoots great. I look forward to your next rimfire action should you purse that venture.

Absolutely, sorry for the confusion. MPA is a great company, with great products and Phil Cashin is a good Dude and smart business man. I just shot a Vudoo last week that was in one of his new chassis systems and it's on my list to get for one of my next builds.

I've been giving away the remaining parts I've had sitting around and running pretty low now, but if I have something that can help, you're welcome to it.

MB

 

[pballkm21]

Absolutely, sorry for the confusion. MPA is a great company, with great products and Phil Cashin is a good Dude and smart business man. I just shot a Vudoo last week that was in one of his new chassis systems and it's on my list to get for one of my next builds.

I've been giving away the remaining parts I've had sitting around and running pretty low now, but if I have something that can help, you're welcome to it.

MB

Mike,
How often do the firing pin springs go? What about extractors? Im sitting on my Vudoo from Dec 2021 and all this talk is making me wonder if I should be sourcing these parts for the future.

 

[NCStaccato]

I'm also looking for a 360 Action wrench.