Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?
How does this conversation turn with the news of Surgeon being bought out?
How does this conversation turn with the news of Surgeon being bought out?
Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?
- Thread starter verrocchio100
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Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the Surgeon not use an M16 or Sako extractor ? </div></div>
Depends on which bolt face you have. WSM, 300WM, and 338 bolt faces use an M16 extractor. 223 and 308 bolt faces use remington style.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the Surgeon not use an M16 or Sako extractor ? </div></div>
Depends on which bolt face you have. WSM, 300WM, and 338 bolt faces use an M16 extractor. 223 and 308 bolt faces use remington style.
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?
Its all very good....
Surgeon is where my money went, after a full lifetime of superb actions, Surgeon is extraordinary.
Its all very good....
Surgeon is where my money went, after a full lifetime of superb actions, Surgeon is extraordinary.
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?
+1 for Surgeon. I own a model 591 for my 260 Rem that Jered and APA built me. It's a remarkable action. My brother is close to receiving his new GAP crusader with Templar action so we'll see how it stacks up. I'm guessing there's no practical difference. I just like Surgeon though.
+1 for Surgeon. I own a model 591 for my 260 Rem that Jered and APA built me. It's a remarkable action. My brother is close to receiving his new GAP crusader with Templar action so we'll see how it stacks up. I'm guessing there's no practical difference. I just like Surgeon though.
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?
I have owned all three actions as well. My opinion isnt worth a hole lot but the OP asked for it so here is mine. Listed in order from my favorite on down/
Surgeon- I only had the SR surgeon action but i was highly impressed with the machine work on this little action. I liked it very well. I do think they could improve on the extractor design. Lots of fellas claim its a real solid design and that it doesn't need improved. I wouldn't really know. I like the m16 extractor as i have had really good luck with that type extractor.
Stiller- Jerry and those boys have always been top notch to me and that is huge. I love the M16 extractor, and i like the price.
Defiance- I was a bit disappointed with the action i got. there were some scratches on the action and i thought the bolt stop sounded a bit loose. every time i worked the bolt the bolt stop moved so much i thought it might fall out. These actions are not cheep either. Quite expensive for what i got. The rifle did shoot well though and thats the main thing. I just dont think a rem clone custom action should cost 1200 bucks+
I am a target shooter first and a hunter second. My gear doesnt get used like some of you all's gear does so i cant compare my finding to many of yours findings. When i buy another i will probably buy another surgeon SR action, or a stiller. really it will depend on what one of the two actions i can get my hands on the fastest when the time comes. Just my 1 cent!!! Lee
As far as BAT actions go. I do like my BAT actions and i do think there hunting/tactical type actions will have a little more play compared to there target action. I will say that myself and some of my close friends have had some issues with BAT actions here lately. crooked bolt faces, and maybe not a real great firing pin/spring system. they seem to be hit or miss. I shoot ppc rifles for the most part and it seems like a BAT action will be kick freakin ass accurate or not so kick freakin ass accurate, Its weird and hard to explain. I may not buy any more BAT actions, just dont know yet!
I have owned all three actions as well. My opinion isnt worth a hole lot but the OP asked for it so here is mine. Listed in order from my favorite on down/
Surgeon- I only had the SR surgeon action but i was highly impressed with the machine work on this little action. I liked it very well. I do think they could improve on the extractor design. Lots of fellas claim its a real solid design and that it doesn't need improved. I wouldn't really know. I like the m16 extractor as i have had really good luck with that type extractor.
Stiller- Jerry and those boys have always been top notch to me and that is huge. I love the M16 extractor, and i like the price.
Defiance- I was a bit disappointed with the action i got. there were some scratches on the action and i thought the bolt stop sounded a bit loose. every time i worked the bolt the bolt stop moved so much i thought it might fall out. These actions are not cheep either. Quite expensive for what i got. The rifle did shoot well though and thats the main thing. I just dont think a rem clone custom action should cost 1200 bucks+
I am a target shooter first and a hunter second. My gear doesnt get used like some of you all's gear does so i cant compare my finding to many of yours findings. When i buy another i will probably buy another surgeon SR action, or a stiller. really it will depend on what one of the two actions i can get my hands on the fastest when the time comes. Just my 1 cent!!! Lee
As far as BAT actions go. I do like my BAT actions and i do think there hunting/tactical type actions will have a little more play compared to there target action. I will say that myself and some of my close friends have had some issues with BAT actions here lately. crooked bolt faces, and maybe not a real great firing pin/spring system. they seem to be hit or miss. I shoot ppc rifles for the most part and it seems like a BAT action will be kick freakin ass accurate or not so kick freakin ass accurate, Its weird and hard to explain. I may not buy any more BAT actions, just dont know yet!
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?
You can order the stiller with the AW cut as well, just like the defiance.
I have a defiance as well as a stiller tac 30 with the aw cut. No preference one way or other, but the stiller build is still not complete so i have not field tested it. I hope there will be no bolt stop issues, that would be a deal breaker for me if I had not bought one already. I got it in the group buy and am very impressed with the beefyness (wd?) of the action as well as the bolt.
I would def get the aw cut though whichever action you choose. too many wins there not to. (longer OAL if needed, top load the mag, and the side by side loading makes for a shorter mag sticking out bottom of stock)
Defiance or stiller, macht nichts.
Regards,
DT
You can order the stiller with the AW cut as well, just like the defiance.
I have a defiance as well as a stiller tac 30 with the aw cut. No preference one way or other, but the stiller build is still not complete so i have not field tested it. I hope there will be no bolt stop issues, that would be a deal breaker for me if I had not bought one already. I got it in the group buy and am very impressed with the beefyness (wd?) of the action as well as the bolt.
I would def get the aw cut though whichever action you choose. too many wins there not to. (longer OAL if needed, top load the mag, and the side by side loading makes for a shorter mag sticking out bottom of stock)
Defiance or stiller, macht nichts.
Regards,
DT
In this series of photo's the bolt on the left is a Surgeon, the right, a Templar(Defiance). Sorry, I dont have any Stiller bolts to compare.
What kind of finish is on the black bolt on the right?
Thanks,
Nick
i'd be willing to bet its cerakote since its probably a GAP.
I have surgeons, defiance, badger, have had stiller
defiance now has the deviant or templar v2 from GAP offer a lot of the options people liked with the surgeon. Surgeon actions are awesome i love mine, surgeon has a hell of a turn around right now as in REALLY LONG if ever if you can even find one unbuilt, otherwise might as well just buy a surgeon built gun. I have 2 templar v1 guns both short and long action they are smooth as hell and have never given me a SINGLE issue, i don't plan on selling em to "upgrade" to anything else anytime soon. The stillers never gave me issues but never really did it for me either, they have made changes recently to their actions so i can't speak to their newer stuff. BAT's i've only seen in Fclass can't speak to their tactical actions. Bighorns i have yet to hear a bad thing about. These threads always amuse me because the fan boys come out of the woodwork, i think it really comes down to pick a builder you trust and like and knows how to build a reliable gun and you'd be hard pressed to have it fail.
I have GAP's built off 4 different actions and every one is awesome and runs reliably. I fully imagine a gun built by Jared, surgeon, terry, chad, etc off any action they like to build off of would be just as reliable. Just my experience take it for what its worth.
I have surgeons, defiance, badger, have had stiller
defiance now has the deviant or templar v2 from GAP offer a lot of the options people liked with the surgeon. Surgeon actions are awesome i love mine, surgeon has a hell of a turn around right now as in REALLY LONG if ever if you can even find one unbuilt, otherwise might as well just buy a surgeon built gun. I have 2 templar v1 guns both short and long action they are smooth as hell and have never given me a SINGLE issue, i don't plan on selling em to "upgrade" to anything else anytime soon. The stillers never gave me issues but never really did it for me either, they have made changes recently to their actions so i can't speak to their newer stuff. BAT's i've only seen in Fclass can't speak to their tactical actions. Bighorns i have yet to hear a bad thing about. These threads always amuse me because the fan boys come out of the woodwork, i think it really comes down to pick a builder you trust and like and knows how to build a reliable gun and you'd be hard pressed to have it fail.
I have GAP's built off 4 different actions and every one is awesome and runs reliably. I fully imagine a gun built by Jared, surgeon, terry, chad, etc off any action they like to build off of would be just as reliable. Just my experience take it for what its worth.
My vote goes to defiance. Even though any of the top builders can make a great rifle with any of the actions mentioned. The defiance is tops when it comes to fit and finish in my opinion.
Interesting, I may use the 591 Surgeon for my next build. I have the Defiance, BAT and several trued Rem 700's, all shoot great! My 700 Rem's seem a bit smoother than my Defiance, especially if the dust is blowing.
For me its a Stiller action all the way.
Stiller customer service is the best in the industry and they keep improving on the actions.
Here is a picture of a new Stiller action in the works
Stiller customer service is the best in the industry and they keep improving on the actions.
Here is a picture of a new Stiller action in the works
I'd be interested in anyone justifying the extra $300 of the Surgeon over Stiller action.
And don't say "integral scope rail." Having loctited all the scope rails I've ever owned, I've never had a single problem with them.
Hint: I said "justify" the extra cost.
Thanx.
And don't say "integral scope rail." Having loctited all the scope rails I've ever owned, I've never had a single problem with them.
Hint: I said "justify" the extra cost.
Thanx.
I can think of 2 things, The shrouded bolt stop and the integral recoil lug.
That justifies the extra cost? For me no.
For those who have been pulling through the bolt stop a little preventive maintenance goes a long way in stopping that.
Keep an eye on that roll pin
I'll have to investigate the shrouded bolt stop. I've never ever had a bolt stop problem on any of my bolt guns.
Why would an integral recoil lug matter? I have never ever heard of a recoil lug failing. ( I can see how an integral recoil lug would require a larger hunk of steel, and more machining time. Ditto with an integral scope rail. More machining.)
When pounding nails, ya don't need an engraved, gold inlaid hammer. Just a hammer. Fine if you WANT that. But ya don't NEED it.
Ergo, I can't imagine a justification to recommend spending the extra $300 for a Surgeon / Defiance, other than "That's what I want."
Which is reason enuf.
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I second that! A guy at our last shoot had a BAT Tactictal. Wow! Made my 591 feel like a Savage. No exaggeration. That is one slick action.
I have one rifle that is built on a Stiller Tac30 action, and have had it for about 3 years. I will not have another Stiller.
I also have 3 rifles built on Surgeon actions (SA, WSM, and LA), and soon will have another rifle built on a Surgeon LA.
So, here's a question for you, can you figure out why I would prefer to buy another Surgeon when a Stiller action is cheaper?
You have an unjustifiable personal preference for Surgeon? You have money to burn? You like impressing the chicks telling them yer a surgeon man? All the cool kids own Surgeon?
I already told you I can't see a reasoned justification for spending the extra dough.
Hint: YOU have to tell ME why you think / act the way you do.
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If my life actually regularly depended on this rifle I am building, I'd get the best of the best too. It doesn't. This is a range rifle. The paper / steel 1,000+ yards away presents no danger to me. I don't ever foresee it doing so. And I have yet to be told a functional difference between any of the named actions. (i.e. accuracy, smoothness of bolt operation, equipment failure of any one of them, etc)
Spend your money how you want. No question that's the right thing to do. But if you want to convince me I should spend my money the way you do, I need a reasoned explanation that goes beyond personal preference. And the attitude that "I'm a better human being because I spent more" is pretty certain to make me NOT spend my money the way you spend yours.
ETA: I also chose a Timney over a Jewell trigger. Excellent is good enuf for my uses, even where I'll concede Jewell may actually be better.
Spend your money how you want. No question that's the right thing to do. But if you want to convince me I should spend my money the way you do, I need a reasoned explanation that goes beyond personal preference. And the attitude that "I'm a better human being because I spent more" is pretty certain to make me NOT spend my money the way you spend yours.
ETA: I also chose a Timney over a Jewell trigger. Excellent is good enuf for my uses, even where I'll concede Jewell may actually be better.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a trued remy just as good ? Why pay the big money for a custom when a rifle that's shoots just as good can be built cheaper? I have a 700 that hasn't been touched by a smith with a .260 cbi remage that shoots .5 min all day...
Buy a Remington action, true it and give it a nitrate bath and add a pinned recoil lug, pinned scope rail with HD screws, side bolt stop and a one piece bolt from PTG... Add that up and you’re in spitting distance of the Stiller or possibly more without having the extra strength the stiller action has.
I just purchased a Stiller, it’s my first custom action and I have trued and tuned R700’s. I am a realist, is the stiller the be all end all... no. My first impression, the bolt is slightly tighter than my tightest R700... it’s almost as smooth as my best Tuned R700 but I am expecting that to change after a couple thousands rounds, as it can only get better. For me the choice was getting every upgrade I wanted minus an integral rail and getting it now verse waiting and paying for upgrades and truing on an existing R700. While I have never been concerned with action strength the Stiller has more beef in it than an untrued R700 will ever have.
“isn't a trued remy just as good?” Depending the criteria sure. For me not this time around...
FWIW, my stiller bolt looks just like that of the Templar(Defiance) pictured above, both are likely one piece bolts made by PTG.
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Just to muddy the water some more, what about the badger ordnance m2013 actions... I know they are new but people have experiences with the m2008. I heard there was some firing pin problems but they have fixed that, lightened the weight of the action, and also lightened the bolt lift. With that said how does the M2013 stand up to surgeon or defiance....
Garandman,
If price is your issue, get the Stiller and be done with it, but in my opinion from owning and using both actions, the Stiller Tac30 should not be compared with a Surgeon 591.
The Stiller is "dainty", feels lighter built, more delicate in comparison.
The Surgeon feels more robust, stronger, IMO better.
While my own experience with the Stiller Tac30 hasn't been satisfactory, IMO if you do not use it a lot or abuse it (rough or extreme conditions) then it may serve you well.
Some have reported problems with the bolt stop on the Stiller actions, however mine has not sheared.
The Surgeon action has more thread (>30% more), IMO clearly better.
The recoil lug is integral on the Surgeon, no additional cost for the part or fitting, IMO clearly better.
The rail is integral on the Surgeon, no additional cost for the part, no additional joint to work loose over time or become damaged/loosened by rough handling, IMO better.
The Surgeon bolt is one-piece, IMO clearly better.
My Stiller bolt is not, but I understand that Stiller has changed their bolts which is a very good thing IMO since Stiller bolt problems have been reported.
The benefits to the Stiller are that it is cheaper, you can get a LH, and you can get one that is opened for AW magazines, and these are good things if it will work OK for you.
Hope this helps.
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That's a very helpful and on-point explanation.
Not sure if I said TAC30 anywhere, but I'm buying the TAC338. Which is beefier. Not sure how that compares to the Surgeon.
As I explained elsewhere, the recoil lug and integral rail are really over engineering to me. Never heard of a failure with either, for those who build the rifle right.
I'll have to see about the bolt stop. Never had one fail, and don't anticipate cycling the bolt hard / fast enuf to shear it.
The one-piece bolt IS a significant advantage to me, which I need to research more. Edit to add: It seems Stiller actions are made with one-piece PTG bolts, some of them anyway... still checking on that...
But thanx for a meaningful explanation of the differences. All said, the TAC338 seems all I will ever need / want, and more. Leaving me $300 for other parts.
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I see what Garandman is getting at when the almighty buck is involved. I'm not rich so I do as much research on a product before purchasing making the most of the money that i don't have.
Stiller tac338 - $1100
Surgeon 1581 XL - $1870
Badger M2013 xl - $1400
Defiance 338 -$1480
One thing that a guy might want to take note of is that some actions have an anti jam rail inside the action. I'm not sure which ones have this but it's just another thing.
Also for the Surgeon, do they come with bottom metal? I've always wondered this. I'm assuming not, but if they did that would be a pretty good price point.
I am currently planning a 338 build also and I ended up going with an M2013 just because of all the features that the action has and how well built it is. I spent a lot of time compairing action on line and in person and talking with a lot of people. My money is on the Badger.
xdeano
Stiller tac338 - $1100
Surgeon 1581 XL - $1870
Badger M2013 xl - $1400
Defiance 338 -$1480
One thing that a guy might want to take note of is that some actions have an anti jam rail inside the action. I'm not sure which ones have this but it's just another thing.
Also for the Surgeon, do they come with bottom metal? I've always wondered this. I'm assuming not, but if they did that would be a pretty good price point.
I am currently planning a 338 build also and I ended up going with an M2013 just because of all the features that the action has and how well built it is. I spent a lot of time compairing action on line and in person and talking with a lot of people. My money is on the Badger.
xdeano
I'm trying to figger out how people are shearing off the bolt stop. Are y'all hnging your open bolt rifles from the bolt handle and then pounding on them with a sledge hammer?
Can't help you there, people like to abuse their equipment. I can't imagine that it's as big of a problem as it's coming across. Maybe one guy has sheared a stop and it got a bad wrap. If it was a huge problem, i'm pretty sure the company would; a. stand behind the product, b. fixed the issue by making a stronger product. Probably a lot of talk.
xdeano
xdeano
I am also in this boat. I recently decided to have my first custom rifle built and feel that the Badger in 300 WM is the way I want to go. I believe that all these action are the cats pajamas and all will be fantastic for future builds.
If I recall correctly, yes the Surgeon XL comes with BM.
For the 591 SA, the 591 WSM, and the 1086 LA the bottom metal is separate.
Take a look at the Shooting Times (March 17, 2011?) review by Richard Mann of the Les Baer Custom Tactical Recon (built on a Tac 30), seems he sheared it on his third day.
Prior to that there were a few others, could probably dig them up on here via the search function, but I do remember one member specifically that sheared his during a comp, which sucks.
It's not too bad, the bolt still works (provided you get any loose bit(s) of metal outa the way, just make sure you don't yank it too hard/far.
It's just a durability/dependability thing.
For weapons that are intended to be used, dependability matters IMO.
However, anything mechanical can and will break eventually.
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I own 2 Surgeons - a 591 and a 1086R, since 2009. Both are top actions. A friend owns a GAP with a Templar on his 260 Rem, and it feels slightly tighter than the Surgeon, and it is as smooth as the Surgeon. I have never owned a Stiller, but a well reputed gunsmith who frequents this site informed me he has had to adjust Stiller actions on "more than one occasion," and that if asked he would "chose the Surgeon in two seconds flat over the Stiller." Enough said. Based on this evidence I do not consider the Stiller in the same class as Surgeon or Defiance.
Don't get me wrong, everything will break, everything. Uncle Murphy is always running around. Given the thousands of actions that have been sold and having only a hand full of guys breaking them isn't bad. IMO. I'm sure there has been a hell of a lot more malfunctions from Factory Remingtons breaking the silver soldered handles off which is more of a problem then a bolt release. I don't own any Stiller products, I just hate giving a bad review on something that is more then likely operator error. Am I wrong?
xdeano
xdeano
IMO, the main factor in personal equipment reviews is "Whatever I bought is the best. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bought it."
Abuse it and you will bust it
""Our instructor made it obvious he believed you should work a bolt like you mean it. So do I, and on the third day, I broke the bolt stop. This was no doubt due to my aggressive bolt work, which was far from gentle. The bolt operated so smoothly you could easily manipulate it with two fingers, but I ran the gun like I was shifting gears on a ’55 International. The small extension on the bolt-stop lever that extends into the raceway sheared off. Since the comb on the rifle was adjusted so high, the broken bolt stop did not take me out of the race. The comb stopped the bolt from coming out during cycling.""
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