Agreed. Definitely has an agenda, and not a healthy one for any.
Im all for holding LE responsible for their actions, and to a higher standard, but AJ, just fucking stop.
Will body cams and cell video get cops killed??? This one boils my blood
- Thread starter hermosabeach
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Agreed. Definitely has an agenda, and not a healthy one for any.
Im all for holding LE responsible for their actions, and to a higher standard, but AJ, just fucking stop.
Riiiiighhht... Forget the call for help about a deranged man with a knife threatening people. What could go wrong?
Virginia police probing triple-homicide
A toddler and infant were located unharmed in the house where the three were found slain
www.nbcnews.com
What part of what I said didn’t happen at all?
edit: I see he didn't have the knife in the final charge, but that really wasn't my point.
Also, some are saying that the video illustrates a good opportunity to have used non-lethal force instead of shooting him. What I see is the opposite. Even AFTER he has been shot, the one who shot him attempts to use a taser on him and that attempt darned near cost that officer his life.
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Well, ya gotta discern, its not that easy. I used to defend the popo no questions asked, just like everyone in this thread, not anymore been seeing too much state violence by their armed agents , really since 9/11. Its un American and I dont like it. Having two tiered justice systems makes me and most Americans not trust the justice system, from the top cop down to the beat cop. One other thing, I never looked at cops as scared little animals until recently, with the body cams, some are cool as fuck but some are just plain too goddam easily spooked and go to the gun too quick, then the amen crowd jumps in citing training requirements and legal shoot bull shit. Every time you guys do that its erodes trust.
Supersubes, fuck you, if you cant take a different opinion or view on things you can go fuck yerself. You sound like that cowboy hat wearin congressbitch.
Supersubes, fuck you, if you cant take a different opinion or view on things you can go fuck yerself. You sound like that cowboy hat wearin congressbitch.
I think you are falling victim to the modern mentality of wanting a "I Win" button that you press and you win and done.
Also the modern police militaristic idea of needing to win right that moment in a dramatic way rather than let it play out longer.
There are several steps to success and you need a bit of patience.
Nets work very good, the larger the knife the better they will work unless the person you are using them on is very sane, and willing to calmly cut their way out.
Remember nets were used for thousands of years as a very effective tool in battle when folks fought with bladed weapons.
A properly made (which those big game ones are) capture net, tightens it's hold on you the more you violently thrash around.
Once a person is roughly grounded to the spot or small area the biggest part of the danger is over.
So what good is it going to do just stopping them from going anywhere?
A ton of good, think back to that specific situation in the video.
Imagine 2 officers in that video get out of their vehicle one, of them has that big game capture net launcher already drawn, the other is covering them with a gun, or they both have the net launcher on a sling that they can let go of and go to sidearm immediately.
First time the guy doesn't drop the knife they fire both nets at him and then back up and wait. The guy is not going anywhere in a hurry unless he is calm, collected and methodical (which if you are waving a knife at cops, you are Not).
Then if nobody else is in danger let him thrash around a bit till he wears himself out while you wait for the team with more gear to show up and take care of getting him into custody without any loss of life.
It comes down to pre-planning and setting up for a situation well before and having everything ready and trained.
It's not like the police "forces" are lacking (at least around here) for money to properly work out training and equipment for non lethal captures of crazy people with knives in situations where they are walking around in the open without someone right near them, and being crazy.
Now if you are wondering what do you do once you have him in the net and he is down on the ground but still has the knife... just think it through and it will come to you (hopefully).... if not, I'll offer some helpful hints.
If your police force has time to go play around with having their own army surplus combat vehicles, they have enough time to research effective ways to deal with crazy that hopefully allow for nobody getting killed.
Ok whatever you say. I defer to your extensive expertise capturing wild animals in nets and subduing aggressive people armed with edged weapons.
My way of dealing with that guy caught in a net:
My way of dealing with that guy caught in a net:
It also comes down to every situation is different and you cant plan for everything. Every cop is different and will react differently. It also comes down to "Going the fuck home at night."
Did you want a more detailed explanation on it, or want to discuss suggested police training and equipment options?
And yes, the police are supposed to be employees of the local citizens and as such the local citizenry should discuss and think long and hard about how they want their police force to be made up, equipped, trained and what rules they should be given, where we got into trouble is giving up our duty/right to do that, instead letting it be handled by a bunch of "Administrators" and "Politicians" who don't care about what the local citizens want/think.
I was referring to the "net" thingy. I'm quite aware of "policies and procedures and how to use SOP manuals, being retired from Corrections, I've got plenty of experience with all that. Mac
I was referring to shoulder fired systems that launch large weighted capture nets specifically designed to safely take down larger game.
With some mods, they can also be used on people very effectively if there is a bit of distance, open space and no obstructions (as shown in the video starting this forum which was a near perfect situation for their use).
As long as its a civil debate, I'm happy to continue discussing.
A "net thingy" might be a possible solution, but only if its available. But even in a net, its possible he still could have continued to harm himself.
So, a serious question for those who think shooting in this case was wrong: given what the officers had on their belt, what course of action do you feel they should have done?
Just left the scene and said "call when you drop the knife and will let us help"?? Risk staying in the car allowing him to attack theu a window while still seated??
I would ask similar questions of BLM: "is there EVER a set of circumstances where deadly force would be justified to them "?
At the end of the day, the guy with the knife made a choice and the officers followed thru with his choice.
A "net thingy" might be a possible solution, but only if its available. But even in a net, its possible he still could have continued to harm himself.
So, a serious question for those who think shooting in this case was wrong: given what the officers had on their belt, what course of action do you feel they should have done?
Just left the scene and said "call when you drop the knife and will let us help"?? Risk staying in the car allowing him to attack theu a window while still seated??
I would ask similar questions of BLM: "is there EVER a set of circumstances where deadly force would be justified to them "?
At the end of the day, the guy with the knife made a choice and the officers followed thru with his choice.
Just to set the stage, I'm not saying the officers were wrong in eventually shooting him, given the limited tools at their disposal and the aggressive actions of the dead party, they didn't have much choice and should have started shooting way earlier. The fact that he got up after being shot and attacked the police officer again shows he had no intention of stopping willingly And yes, given all they had on them was handguns and a tazer and both were out of the vehicle, on foot backing up, there was little else they could do.
For the "net thingy" to work, it has to be available, exactly, which means planning ahead of time by the city, purchasing them and equipping the patrol cars with them, training with them. It's the kind of thing that you come up with after an incident to help future ones have a better outcome.
As to the crazy one possibly continuing to harm themselves even when wrapped up in a net, well that's just something that is fully on the crazy one. If the police trap you in a net so they don't have to shoot you and then you kill or really cut yourself up with your knife... well it's on you... they did their best not to kill you and if you do it to yourself well sometimes you can't fix crazy. But generally speaking however, once trapped in a net, they probably won't do themselves any life ending harm with their big knife, nothing that can't be fixed with a bit of surgery.
@ArmyJerry
Second amendment and freedom of speech applies to cops too. They had the constitutional right to walk in a public place. Guy with knife can walk around and defy the commands of the cops. It wasn’t until he ran at one of them wielding a knife did cop shoot. Cops as citizens can defend themselves. As a citizen if threatened by a knife I don’t have to fight fair. I know if some fucktard ran at you with a knife you would cap his stupid ass.
Second amendment and freedom of speech applies to cops too. They had the constitutional right to walk in a public place. Guy with knife can walk around and defy the commands of the cops. It wasn’t until he ran at one of them wielding a knife did cop shoot. Cops as citizens can defend themselves. As a citizen if threatened by a knife I don’t have to fight fair. I know if some fucktard ran at you with a knife you would cap his stupid ass.
Difference of opinion? Have you not noticed the conversation going on around you? Mostly it’s about should they have backed off that much, or used another methods. Fair enough I think. Then there’s you going with the evil popo harassing the knife wielding lunatic in a public place for no reason. You don’t even have the honesty to acknowledge two officers who didn’t rush to shoot, which is the drum you typically beat.
What a clown you are.
I think of the Chris rock PSA on how to not get your ass beat but he police.
At what point do we stop and say, if you attack police, you should be killed?
If you can’t or won’t deal with your issues
If your family can’t control you
Then why are we not OK with him being shot early on???
At what point do we stop and say, if you attack police, you should be killed?
If you can’t or won’t deal with your issues
If your family can’t control you
Then why are we not OK with him being shot early on???
The use of force continuum is an outdated policy/training system. Look to the law first, policies are derivations of it.
So what they were just driving around and happened on an innocent citizen brandishing his knife alone and attacked him for it? No one called them out of fear?
They were trying to taze him several times. He didn’t want that.
I find it ironic that in one thread you defend violations of the law regarding use of force by agents of the state and in the other you criticize a legal use of force by agents of the state. Perhaps given your insistence of the existence of corporate knowledge you can post the agency and years you were a police officer, as qualifications to have this discussion.
Your not considering any thing outside of the start on the video that COULD have indicated that need to. Again, you sound like a 10 or 12 year old with your comments. Don’t desire to be offensive here but, have a clue or two.
I'm going with AJ on this. As soon as they exited the squad they both drew, which if you look close prompts the perp. If that's their training for a knife that far away, is pointing a weapon first at that distance something is wrong with their training. Protect an serve is first an foremost, an that includes the perp from his own ass.
I don't have the highest opinion of the road pirates.
But wtf. Should have shot him or ran him over as soon as he advanced. Or tased him immediately with a competent partner providing lethal over watch.
Wtf. Hesitation will get you killed in a lot of situations
I would have also drawn as I exited... simply because action is faster than reaction. If a guy with a knife decides to attack, an officer shouldn't be behind the curve even more than necessary. Assuming that the knife or weapon is out. In a sheath or holster would change things some.
Distance is your friend in this case as eould a vehicle for a barrier but that can be a luxury you don't have.
And I also agree with trying to protect the guy from himself but they may not sllow that as in this case. He was very determined.
How much are 'Net Thingys'? How much to out fit every patrol car in America? My taxes are already to high. Dont charge the cops with a hunting knife and things will go much better for you both long and short term. Thats not rocket science.
This. A million times 'this'. It is up to, and 'on' the knife-wielder. He's the one doing this. He's the one who started this fiasco.
So he's the one that has to be stopped. And as a taxpayer, I'm fully supportive of "less is more". The police officers already carry/wear a Bat Belt with all kinds of toys/gizmo's/thing-a-ma-jigs on it. Should we instead start outfitting them with Bat BackPacks? The problem with that premise is we'll have to start removing the seat-backs from the squadcars, simply so that they officers can sit down.
I don't see THAT premise going very far.
Now, all humor, invective, and hidden sarcasm aside.... I've oft said that I'm a proponent for banning tazers. Here's why:
If you have attracted the attention of the police officers already, then it is time to stop what you're doing. Never mind this bullshit-ballet of threat threat threat threat threat lunge threat threat lunge lunge dodge threat threat dodge jump threat threat-again.....
Never mind the 'electro-zap' the bastard to hit the reset button, just so that he can do it again in minutes or days, whenever they let him out again.
Pull The Trigger, and the problem is done and dealt with eleventy times over. No 'multiple vehicles' involved with this once incident, so that there are others out there doing their job in other venues. No more 'multiple legal-manipulators' who're going to battle over how much money they can charge either the municipality or the plaintiff themselves. No more 'incarcerators' to which there are multiple layers of payment involved there, too.
Save all that effort and expense for something that matters.
Just pull the damn trigger, go home safe at night, and on BEHALF OF A GRATEFUL NATION, we Thank You for doing a job well done!
It's for the children.
Give the nets to Mr. Propane-Man, so that they can control the dinner riots. Or isn't that what the fire-hose is for, as per the "Clean 'm Up" in First Blood?
Happy Independence Day ya'll.... and please get the chuckle out of all that, which was intended.
D
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Do we have the backstory for the deceased Aaron Hong? Like what happened before the police showed up.
Not saying it was all spot on ....fwiw, BRAVO stand and shoutback, it was still worth the read.This. A million times 'this'. It is up to, and 'on' the knife-wielder. He's the one doing this. He's the one who started this fiasco.
So he's the one that has to be stopped. And as a taxpayer, I'm fully supportive of "less is more". The police officers already carry/wear a Bat Belt with all kinds of toys/gizmo's/thing-a-ma-jigs on it. Should we instead start outfitting them with Bat BackPacks? The problem with that premise is we'll have to start removing the seat-backs from the squadcars, simply so that they officers can sit down.
I don't see THAT premise going very far.
Now, all humor, invective, and hidden sarcasm aside.... I've oft said that I'm a proponent for banning tazers. Here's why:
If you have attracted the attention of the police officers already, then it is time to stop what you're doing. Never mind this bullshit-ballet of threat threat threat threat threat lunge threat threat lunge lunge dodge threat threat dodge jump threat threat-again.....
Never mind the 'electro-zap' the bastard to hit the reset button, just so that he can do it again in minutes or days, whenever they let him out again.
Pull The Trigger, and the problem is done and dealt with eleventy times over. No 'multiple vehicles' involved with this once incident, so that there are others out there doing their job in other venues. No more 'multiple legal-manipulators' who're going to battle over how much money they can charge either the municipality or the plaintiff themselves. No more 'incarcerators' to which there are multiple layers of payment involved there, too.
Save all that effort and expense for something that matters.
Just pull the damn trigger, go home safe at night, and on BEHALF OF A GRATEFUL NATION, we Thank You for doing a job well done!
It's for the children.
Give the nets to Mr. Propane-Man, so that they can control the dinner riots. Or isn't that what the fire-hose is for, as per the "Clean 'm Up" in First Blood?
Happy Independence Day ya'll.... and please get the chuckle out of all that, which was intended.
If I were one of two officers on a knife call, one of us would have stepped out of the vehicle with the shotgun. This gives you the room you need to try and talk this guy down.
With the shit people put in their bodies, sometimes a sidearm is not enough. Here I don’t think it was enough.
Did the officers give this guy too much of a chance bc they were on camera, or were they sincerely trying to keep from killing him? Doesn’t really matter I don’t think. The cameras are meant to keep a situation in check.
They were much better to this guy than I could stand. I hate the thought of a knife headed my direction.
With the shit people put in their bodies, sometimes a sidearm is not enough. Here I don’t think it was enough.
Did the officers give this guy too much of a chance bc they were on camera, or were they sincerely trying to keep from killing him? Doesn’t really matter I don’t think. The cameras are meant to keep a situation in check.
They were much better to this guy than I could stand. I hate the thought of a knife headed my direction.
Would better to say “check on a situation”, both right or wrong....but, just one of many things that will be evaluated, as it should always be. That said evaluations can be fraught with “holes”, by and large....when you’re a cop you have not only the public to protect, you also have your fellow officers and yourself.
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This was poor poor poor officer safety. The second shooting shouldn’t have happened, he should have advanced on suspect and point blank blipped him.
The good ones are about $2k each, so count $6k since it's the government and you have to add in training.
(Also remember the SUVs the police drive around with, especially the ones with thermal imaging and NV cameras on the top are so hugely expensive that it's barely a blip).
Now take the total cost of one officer involved shooting to the department and city. Start to finish, including the amount charged in time / salary for all the paperwork that has to be done, investigations, possibly having the officer on paid leave, clean up costs, costs to the coroner's department, ambulance / hospital costs, everything that is involved cost wise on a per person working on it salary as well as all costs associated. From time the triggers are pulled till the time all is done and forgotten. Then once you have that number, add to it the possibility of a wrongful death lawsuit by the relatives / estate (very likely), which adds significant costs even if it is tossed out. That's before you get into the whole racial mess and "criminal's lives matter" stuff and whatever goes on because of that.
By the time you add that all up, the cost to the taxpayers is quite a lot.
The individual police officers don't see it ever, but it gets paid for by your forced taxes as a citizen of the local city.
So when planning things ahead, if it results in a couple less fatalities for the city, more than likely it has paid for itself.
It can't always be used, but it is a very useful tool to have if the situation warrants it.
Remember whatever the police do, YOU are paying for it.
So how much do you want to pay out since you're the one paying for it.
You DO know it’s: Standard Police Motto. The Los Angeles Police Department's famous motto, "to protect and to serve" (coined in 1955), has been adopted by many other police departments across the English-speaking world, sometimes in its alternate form "to serve and protect."........Surely you don’t live under a rock.
Mottoes are great and all... but that is all they are.
Google had an original Motto of "Don't be Evil"..... well good luck
Doctors are supposed to "Do no Harm".... right good luck again
The government "Of the people, by the people, for the people".... good luck there
A lot of the issue these days with police departments can be traced directly back to the "war on drugs" which is why I'm firmly against government prohibitions on drugs despite being very anti drug myself.
A big part also is how the fabric of society in general has been corrupted and destroyed by the Communists and their buddies, to where folks go around thinking it's the way to go to just be violent and evil anytime you want and as there are more and more population that are ready to go violent / crazy at the drop of a hat, police also start having to not play all nice and happy anymore.
Then you have the Communist politicians thinking that the police are their own private SS army to use to enforce whatever communist laws they come up with that day or destroy freedom... that then is where the police start running head on into those who they should be standing shoulder to shoulder with.
LEO's had it right. Dispatch got a call of a "man with knife", notified officers, officers responded (because officers would not have been there otherwise), officers make contact with perp with weapon's presented (because perp had a knife), Knives can be thrown. Perp was given plenty of chances to drop knife, but didn't. Officers finally shot, perp stopped, end of story. Mac
This is heartbreaking. I'm seeing two good cops who did everything they could to save a life. If anything, they gave him too many chances. I don't think it's fair at all to say they should have been more aggressive, though I'd have considered it "appropriate force" if he were taken down long before he got to the intersection. I'd love to say that training should have had one officer with a taser, while the other backed up with lethal, but I damn sure wouldn't volunteer to holster and pull out the taser.
It sucks, but sometimes you have to be responsible for one's self at some point in your life, mental or not. Mac
