Class 3 firearm transfer, person to person

Jgunner

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  • Jul 29, 2019
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    Arizona
    So what is the legal way to do this? When do i give them the money and who holds the weapon?
    Obviously i know I cannot have it until my tax stamp comes back. I just want everyone to be protected. Its a friend of mine, selling to me.
     
    Typically, and this depends on how well you know the person. I'd just pay up front, and then submit the paperwork while the seller holds the weapon. If you don't know them that well, work out something like, you pay 50%, and upon approval the other 50%. The seller is going to need to stay in possession since it is registered to them. This pertains only to an in state person to person sale.
     
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    Contract for sure. Its not chump change for me and i would even draw a contract if it were my own father!
    I was told a shop can hold onto it while it processes, as he may not be around for much longer(hence the sale). So i want to make sure his family gets paid and i get the product.
    I did get burned by a shop one time, bought a suppressor and a month later he folded his business before i even sent in my info. So i am cautious of that as well.
     
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    You just fill out paperwork and when it clears... the seller sends to you or, better still, you pick it up.

    Last artillery piece I bought I simply put the cash in escrow and when the paperwork cleared, seller got paid and I got my cannon. Most scum-sucking lawyers will do an escrow for chump change. On a $15K cannon, they charged me $200. Make sure you get all the interest, too!

    If seller wants all payment up front... no way. Escrow (or pay after paperwork clears) or no deal. If they want earnest money, a 10% deposit is not out of line.

    An honest seller understands this and is fine. Buyer pays for lawyers, ATF fee, etc. The seller merely needs... patience!

    Cheers,

    Sirhr
     
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    I was told a shop can hold onto it while it processes, as he may not be around for much longer(hence the sale). So i want to make sure his family gets paid and i get the product.

    To #1, probably not. As far as I know an 01/03 would have to transfer it into their inventory, which would require its own Form 4 and ridiculous waiting period. An 07/02 could possibly hold it, but it might have to go back to the original owner vs. a new owner.

    To #2. If the item in question is written into the will(and possibly even if not), the executor of the estate(I am reading into your "may not be around much longer" statement) can legally hold it until such time as it can be legally disposed of. And by disposed of I dont mean destroyed. My NFA items are written in my will with a list of people who could inherit them. My sister is my executor and she could legally possess my items until such time as the Form 5 clears(tax free transfer used for this purpose).
     
    So what is the legal way to do this? When do i give them the money and who holds the weapon?
    Obviously i know I cannot have it until my tax stamp comes back. I just want everyone to be protected. Its a friend of mine, selling to me.
    How good of a friend and is it on a trust?
     
    If I am the seller you pay the money before the transfer starts. Depending on if you know or how well you know the person, you work out how much. I would never start a transfer (sale) with out 50% down and would only do 50% on high end items, and that is rare. Mostly for people I know. I would also let you know (spelled out in writing and signed by the buyer) that if you fail to pay the remaining 50% when the transfer is approved, it will cost you XX%. Somewhere between 10-20% of your initial payment. When I say high end items $30K+.
    Also, if the deal is a 50/50% sale the seller should specify that you have x business days to send funds after the transfer is approved. This is negotiable but normally 10 business days should be enough. I am not waiting 6 months for funds and ATF requires you complete the transfer in a reasonable time frame. I don't remember if they list days but I wouldn't want a "approved F4" item in my inventory at a compliance inspection that had been sitting for 6 months. It happens, but not often due to deaths.
    I have heard too many times, well I don't have the cash now, wife found out, wrecked the car and have to fix it, kid needs braces, etc. When in reality you changed your mind after 10-14 months. Too bad, you bought it and now can't/won't pay?
    If you pay 100% I am willing to give you all the "parts" not registered that can easily be taken off the item. IE M16 - I would ship the upper and accessories (if any) on your dime, MP5 - bolt, trigger pack (if reg rec, not if sear gun), accessories, on your dime. Nothing that would risk any dings or damage to the item.
    If that sounds harsh, too bad. Like I said, too many times someone bought a NFA item and after a long wait time couldn't or wouldn't pay. Also, be real sure you know you can clear the ATF/NFA/FBI background check. I have seen old issues pop up that were forgotten about or they thought that "thing" went away somehow. It happens. It may require a lawyer to have it cleared up or even more. Think $$, $$$, $$$$ and more $$$$$$. This also adds to the transfer time frame.
    Transfer Info

    Same state:
    Form 4 from seller to you $200 tax 10-14+ months for the approval
    Estate form 5 (if you are in the will) no tax, if not Form 4 $200 tax same long time frame. Copies of will, etc required with forms.

    Different states:
    Form 4 to a dealer in buyers state $200 tax 2-10 months, Form 4 from dealer to you $200 tax, 10-14 months+ for approval
    Estate - need to double check this so won't comment, different if you are in the will vs not. If not it will transfer just like a regular seller/buyer out of state but requires copies of will, etc with forms.

    If estate, you better hope the executor knows something about NFA items or they are smart enough to ask a RIK for help. Veteran estates can be the worst as some items were bought home on approved military paperwork and items are legal to own and transfer. A lot of NFA has been lost because the paperwork can't be found and no one has copies.
     
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    Yes, we live 2 miles apart, i have other class 3 items and currently waiting on a suppressor, i have a buddy with a shop that is an sot eho said they would hold it if that is the route i want to take, but he has to look at the legalities as he has not done this before, its always been new suppressor sales.

    i don’t have a problem with paying half or full, if its at a shop. It is an m16 and i will take the upper off of it and hold it.
     
    i have a buddy with a shop that is an sot eho said they would hold it if that is the route i want to take, but he has to look at the legalities as he has not done this before, its always been new suppressor sales.

    As far as I know(and JHRTX basically says the same) he would have to do a Form 4 into his inventory which would be subject to the $200 stamp plus the time required to process a Form 4, then re-form 4 it to you with another $200 and time served...

    Best thing to do is get everything going on the Form 4. After that approves, for in state, its a face to face sale at that point.

    And again, if he passes, his executor is legally allowed to possess the item until they are disposed of via a legal transfer of some kind(Form 4 or 5).

    How you deal with the financial aspect is a different matter and only you can come up with an agreement. I agree with somebody above that you can have an escrow setup for this transaction. My local bank does escrow's for big transactions for like $50 or 100.

    ETA: In a situation like this(if I am reading this correctly that the seller may pass before the Form 4 clears) I would have everything in writing with signatures and notarized by seller, executor of estate, and buyer so that all 3 are on the same page. I wouldnt personally worry about it enough to have a lawyer draw something up, but a plainly worded letter with all info on it, financial conditions, etc... then the 3 signatures plus notary.


    I would call the NFA branch and talk to an examiner about the pending form 4 if a person passes. Or if you dont want to call the ATF call somebody like Reuben Mendiola(or one of the other BIG NFA dealers) who deals with this stuff all the time.
     
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    Your friend (FFL/SOT) cannot hold the NFA item without approved transfer paperwork. That is a big problem for him if caught in an inspection.

    If you do a letter agreement, have a copy of the paperwork attached to the letter and let the executor know about the sale and if paid or you still owe on the item. Things get lost and misplaced sometimes when someone passes.
    If your friend passes, technically, the executor is the only one that can talk with NFA Branch. I know some people call NFA and "claim" to be the seller to get status.
     
    Huh. I talked to another sot today, where he said he could take it after no more than a 3 day hold, just like a suppressor.

    My other sot friend said local atf said no, but they are not nfa branch. So they may give false information.

    i guess what I don’t understand is why a shop can get a suppressor or sbr or whatever from somewhere within a few days but this is different.
     
    I think you may be mixing up form 3 with form 4. Form 3s cover a transfer to a dealer and have much shorter wait times, although usually longer than three days. They are still a tax paid form, though. So somebody would have to pay the $200 dollars for the item to be transferred to the dealer, then another $200 for the dealer to transfer the item to you on a Form 4. Unnecessary. The next of kin can have the item transferred to themselves, tax free, on a Form 5, then sell it to you on a Form 4. Alternatively, the estate is allowed to hold the item until a stamp is issued, even if that takes many months. Be very careful from who you seek advise. A mistake can be costly.
     
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    I think you may be mixing up form 3 with form 4. Form 3s cover a transfer to a dealer and have much shorter wait times, although usually longer than three days. They are still a tax paid form, though. So somebody would have to pay the $200 dollars for the item to be transferred to the dealer, then another $200 for the dealer to transfer the item to you on a Form 4. Unnecessary. The next of kin can have the item transferred to themselves, tax free, on a Form 5, then sell it to you on a Form 4. Alternatively, the estate is allowed to hold the item until a stamp is issued, even if that takes many months. Be very careful from who you seek advise. A mistake can be costly.
    Yeah, i want to make sure its all done right. I was worried about the next of kin side of things, but guess I don’t have to.

    ill just apply for my stamp and leave it in their possession. Get a contract written up and notarized. Keeps it simple i guess
     
    I’m surprised you can’t form 3 to a sot while you apply for form 4 just like you would for a suppressor. Watching this as have a m14 in mind. Big differences are that it’s out of state and I don’t know the seller.
     
    What? You can't do the same transfer to you and the dealer at the same time for anything. Until the Form 3 to your dealer is approved you can't start a Form 4 transfer to you. Doesn't matter if suppressor or MG. If it's dealer to dealer they can e-file and get the approved form via email and in many cases faster. I can't comment on time as I gave it up about the time e-file started. USPS sometimes takes weeks to receive approved forms because it has never really left the examiners desk. If it was me, I wouldn't even start the form 4 on a MG until I received the approved transfer to me (dealer). I understand AFT/NFA is going back to the original registration to be sure the SN of what you are transferring today is what was registered. To the point of asking for photos. I sold one of my Colt 28 Navy Thompsons and they wanted detailed photos. I even had the amnesty paperwork on the gun and knew how the original form was completed. They want all the boxes to match the original paperwork. No more putting 4 or 5 calibers on M16's or MP5 paperwork.

    Several dealers were prosecuted a few years ago for magically making MAC 10 & 11's into M-60's 1919's etc. They "transferred" the paperwork between them for several years creating a kind of lost trail for what the gun was. Thing is a MAC has a unique SN prefix that M-60's didn't. Someone at ATF finally caught on.

    I’m surprised you can’t form 3 to a sot while you apply for form 4 just like you would for a suppressor. Watching this as have a m14 in mind. Big differences are that it’s out of state and I don’t know the seller.
     
    Another question: can you put a short barrel upper on a mg without an additional stamp? And if not, can i apply for this stamp with the overall as a sbr?
    I am sure caliber changes are a no go, along with the two above. But thought I’d ask
     
    To #1, probably not. As far as I know an 01/03 would have to transfer it into their inventory, which would require its own Form 4 and ridiculous waiting period. An 07/02 could possibly hold it, but it might have to go back to the original owner vs. a new owner.

    To #2. If the item in question is written into the will(and possibly even if not), the executor of the estate(I am reading into your "may not be around much longer" statement) can legally hold it until such time as it can be legally disposed of. And by disposed of I dont mean destroyed. My NFA items are written in my will with a list of people who could inherit them. My sister is my executor and she could legally possess my items until such time as the Form 5 clears(tax free transfer used for this purpose).

    Did not know about this form 5 you speak of. Thanks for the heads up!
     
    I know, you gotta take the good with the bad. I just get different answers from local atf, sot owners and its driving me nuts. I get so many answers, you would think this is building code!

    Call the NFA branch and get their opinion because they are the ones that will know... Like you said local ATF doesnt generally know diddly about NFA intricacy, and this is definitely an intricacy.
     
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    This really isn't that unusual. I just completed almost this exact transaction. Buddy died and I offered to buy a AKS74U from the widow. Filed a Form 4 with the seller being "Estate of .....". She just kept it in the safe until the stamp came back, to her. Called me up to get the weapon. Easy. One tax. No problems. Took four months.
     
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    I was looking for their number, didn’t find a direct line yet

    call whatever number is on the Form 4 instructions... I think it is on there.

    ETA: yea, last page of the instructions
    NFA Division at (304) 616-4500

    There is also a small section of the instructions specifically for estate's handling NFA items, well really a "contact us" type of thing.
     
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