I guess all your AR-15s are "obsolete" now. Time to start dumping your 5.56 rifles, lol
- Thread starter theLBC
- Start date
I do have 20+ years of concrete experience
You’d be surprised at how many deer are taken with 223’s
yeah... from deer blinds at 200 ft baiting the hungry buggars with corn and salt. Now that is sporting, eh?
JPs claims are BS. Take their bolts and others to a lab and have them tested to destruction. Heat treat cannot change maximum strength shown by the manufacturer of the alloy.
ETA- I should have said somewhere in one of their ads they say their bolts will last 10 times longer and that is just a wild claim. In the tests I had a lab run in 2009 9310 will crack less and shear at a higher pressure than 158 and for the 6.8 and 6.5 Grendel 9310 would be a better choice from the teats we ran but many bolt makers now use 9310 so a claim that their 9310 lasts longer than other 9310 bolts is a wild claim.
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I all seriousness I am interested in this cartridge because I am quite interested in a small 6mm and cheap factory ammunition is a plus.
Doesn't the military have a 6.8SPC in development to serve as both the main issue rifle and the LMG?
There are some other vids on it as well.
It is a 6.8mm round, but definitely not SPC. SIG's .277 Fury is pretty close to what the Army is looking at.
Agreed. The marketing will be typical Hornady, which is to say its reaching a bit.
At least they’ll put their money where their mouth is by providing ammo and getting gun manufacturers to chamber for it. That’s all that matters really.
Like the 6.5CM, You could realistically call it a game changer.
Fluff up the case, make it fit AR and AICS mags, promote the crap out of it right when the PRC and NRL are getting popular and long range is becoming more popular.
300PRC, modern case design with a sorted out chamber for heavies.
Personally I think they hit a home run with this like the 6.5CM
These next two are kinda meh for me.
6.5PRC, well there is factory ammunition but they screwed the pooch a bit on the overall length.
224 Valkyrie, novel concept but some are still having issues and 22’s can be finicky.
You guys made a fun thread, lol!
My story as far as AR large and small frames.
I bought a HBAR AR-15 way back in the 80's and it was a great rifle but the farthest I shot it was at 600Y in service rifle matches with 69 grainers, doing this was my first lesson in attempting to manage windage. Killed a few yotes, PD's, etc. Wasn't much into irons so I sold it.
Later on bought a Armalite M4 match shorty with a 15" barrel. I still have it and it's been a great gun and accurate as well. I shoot 70gr vld's at 2600 fps. I've shot 3 gun matches, killed stuff, and I'm keeping it. It does surprisingly well to 600Y, except for wind drift.
Got a DPMS large frame 24" 308 heavy barrel. It was heavy, malfunctioned, and wasn't very accurate. Didn't impress at long range except for energy. So I sold it.
Not giving up on large frame AR's I bought a DPMS in 243Win. It was 1.2 moa accurate, reliable, not bad at long range but the load it liked was 105 Amax at 2750 fps and had a fare amount of sight picture upset from the big BCG slamming back.
While I owned this rifle I bought a Olympic Arms 243WSSM small frame upper. The ballistics were great, 87 vmax at 3050 fps, but those peter out past 700Y or so and blow in the wind a bit. It was unreliable, the brass sucked, and it was a 1.2" upper on a good day. HOWEVER, I discovered something by owning both of these at the same time, and that was the 243 WSSM had significantly less rifle movement because of the lighter BCG, it weighed a couple pounds less than the large frame as well.
Since I was dissatisfied with both I sold them. I took the plunge and bought a 26" Krieger barreled 6mm AR Turbo 40 from Whitley/6mmAR. Man that thing shot great! I pushed the velocity and was shooting 105 Amax in the high 2800's for 3 or so years. I won a long range night match with it and finished 2nd place at the score high challenge one time too - against bolt rifles. After 1500 rounds it went from a .6" upper to a 1" upper so I sold it. My point is this thing was a true long range contender in a AR with light recoil and light rifle upset.
A few years went by and the little 223 Armalite wasn't doing it for me for long range so I bought a 6mmFatRat with a 22" Wilson barrel. After some trial and error I got it shooting .8" with 95 SMK going 2870 fps and I put a brake on it. It's very reliable with very light recoil and rifle upset! I like this combo and it's basically like a 6mmBR in the wind.
6mm's in AR's are nifty and do well shooting long range, I don't think I can do without one anymore!
My story as far as AR large and small frames.
I bought a HBAR AR-15 way back in the 80's and it was a great rifle but the farthest I shot it was at 600Y in service rifle matches with 69 grainers, doing this was my first lesson in attempting to manage windage. Killed a few yotes, PD's, etc. Wasn't much into irons so I sold it.
Later on bought a Armalite M4 match shorty with a 15" barrel. I still have it and it's been a great gun and accurate as well. I shoot 70gr vld's at 2600 fps. I've shot 3 gun matches, killed stuff, and I'm keeping it. It does surprisingly well to 600Y, except for wind drift.
Got a DPMS large frame 24" 308 heavy barrel. It was heavy, malfunctioned, and wasn't very accurate. Didn't impress at long range except for energy. So I sold it.
Not giving up on large frame AR's I bought a DPMS in 243Win. It was 1.2 moa accurate, reliable, not bad at long range but the load it liked was 105 Amax at 2750 fps and had a fare amount of sight picture upset from the big BCG slamming back.
While I owned this rifle I bought a Olympic Arms 243WSSM small frame upper. The ballistics were great, 87 vmax at 3050 fps, but those peter out past 700Y or so and blow in the wind a bit. It was unreliable, the brass sucked, and it was a 1.2" upper on a good day. HOWEVER, I discovered something by owning both of these at the same time, and that was the 243 WSSM had significantly less rifle movement because of the lighter BCG, it weighed a couple pounds less than the large frame as well.
Since I was dissatisfied with both I sold them. I took the plunge and bought a 26" Krieger barreled 6mm AR Turbo 40 from Whitley/6mmAR. Man that thing shot great! I pushed the velocity and was shooting 105 Amax in the high 2800's for 3 or so years. I won a long range night match with it and finished 2nd place at the score high challenge one time too - against bolt rifles. After 1500 rounds it went from a .6" upper to a 1" upper so I sold it. My point is this thing was a true long range contender in a AR with light recoil and light rifle upset.
A few years went by and the little 223 Armalite wasn't doing it for me for long range so I bought a 6mmFatRat with a 22" Wilson barrel. After some trial and error I got it shooting .8" with 95 SMK going 2870 fps and I put a brake on it. It's very reliable with very light recoil and rifle upset! I like this combo and it's basically like a 6mmBR in the wind.
6mm's in AR's are nifty and do well shooting long range, I don't think I can do without one anymore!
The 69 at 600 wasn't great. A lot of shooters used 80's at 600. 77's do well out to 700ish and I know guys shooting steel at 1K with them in 20" NM rifles.
Anyone interested in giving up their 5.56 guns, parts, or ammo/components, just pm me for my address.
German would know, he's on their design team specializing in loadouts for backyard ops.
If you have a pic of you in your Condor gear, you can always post it in Equipment and get his $.02 on it.
It bugs me so much when Humans use tools to their advantage to kill an animal thats faster and has far greater hearing and sense of smell.
Camouflage, Bait, WEAPONS?! Blasphemy
We should be running down deer and biting their throats like the true sportsmen we are.
Tools are tools...
Going up to 6mm or even the Sig fury round does make the AR more versatile, self defense, hunting bigger critters ect . Own both ! Problem solved
So, the 6 Hagar. It came about because you could single load it with 105s for 600 and lighter at mag length for closer in HP matches. Better in the wind. John from Keystone fixes that with his .240 Tomahawk so you can load 105s to mag length. This was all probably 10 or more years ago. His .220 Thunderbolt beats the snot out of the Valkyrie but it can't load the heavies to mag length. It looks like he's pulled all his info from his website. I would be more inclined to go 6-6.8 and have the better bolt.
I do like the Valkyrie. It's hilarious to me to read all the comments on it. People used to bitch a storm up on here about how you couldn't load the 75 and 80 AMAX to mag length in .223 and if you only could, wow... Now you have that .223AI performance in the AR but the bargain brand stuff doesn't work well? Or it's just at that ragged edge of you better know how to drive an AR to get one to shoot.
What happened to Keystone, I noticed their website had like all the AR product details they used to have suddenly vanished?
Yes they should have. The manufacturer of the alloy(9310 in this case) publishes the maximum yield strength IF the correct heat treat is used, you can't make the yield strength increase but if you choose the wrong heat treat you can make the material weaker or more brittle decreasing the yield strength. Also in the case of an AR15 bolt the charpy strength is very important due to the notch/ body to lug junction. There are many out there that think the harder you make the material the stronger the bolt but as some found out around 2007 it makes them brittle and the lugs break away from the bolt body.
JPs bolts are a loose copy of the bolts I have been machining since 2009 except all they did was increase the diameter around the cam pin hole, they did not change the lug geometry.
Now on the other end of the spectrum you have companies nitride treating bolts that make the lugs softer, they may not rip away from the bolt body but the lugs compress over time increasing headspace.
Yep, I broke a JP HP. Two actually if you count my 6AR barrel that grenaded from too much chamfer on the back of the barrel. Know a couple others who have broke them as well. It takes too much meat off of the bolt and no heat treating is going to make up for that.
SPC is the biggest you can go and keep any sort of reliability. Period.
Because they haven't broken yet? That's like saying a new Hi Point isn't a piece of shit because it hasn't been shot yet to fail. Lot's of Grendels brake bolts, but you keep believing that.
Factory rounds probably around 2500 between a 12" and a 16". Is that enough to have an opinion?
So, you have two bolts with barely over 1k a piece, of factory ammo, and you are telling people who are saying if you load hot you will break bolts with that face, they don't know what they are talking about. I imagine redneckbmxer has broken more bolts than you own. Spew garbage indeed.
I have broken 1 in 12k rounds of 7.62x39. And none in god knows how many rounds of 223.
I have broken 1 in 12k rounds of 7.62x39. And none in god knows how many rounds of 223.
So, you have two bolts with barely over 1k a piece, of factory ammo, and you are telling people who are saying if you load hot you will break bolts with that face, they don't know what they are talking about. I imagine redneckbmxer has broken more bolts than you own. Spew garbage indeed.
I have broken 1 in 12k rounds of 7.62x39. And none in god knows how many rounds of 223.
Why do you enjoy being poor and not being able to afford a second bolt? There are a zillion people hand loading this thing and not breaking bolts. Sounds like a problem for them, not me.
- It's $1/round for something next to noone has shot or asked for
- You're going to have the chicken/egg issue just like with the Valkryie and who is making parts/not making parts because people arent using it, and people arent using it because there arent alot of people making parts
- It's literally a rehash of 6.8/6.5G
For me to give a shit about something in my AR, it would have to be cheap and fast with a reliable wounding property of the bullet better than M193 for carbine use, or it would need to be significantly cheaper than 6.5CM yet still be a 1k yard round.
Other than that, I just dont care.
- You're going to have the chicken/egg issue just like with the Valkryie and who is making parts/not making parts because people arent using it, and people arent using it because there arent alot of people making parts
- It's literally a rehash of 6.8/6.5G
For me to give a shit about something in my AR, it would have to be cheap and fast with a reliable wounding property of the bullet better than M193 for carbine use, or it would need to be significantly cheaper than 6.5CM yet still be a 1k yard round.
Other than that, I just dont care.
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