The difference is while there is no federal price gouging law many states have them against price gouging on petroleum fuels they however in most cases do not extend to ammunition. So you comparing illegal price gouging of gasoline with sellers of ammo asking current market value and conducting legal transactions in a free market as though the two are one in the same is bullshit Sir.
Price gouging
- Thread starter Doc68
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The difference is while there is no federal price gouging law many states have them against price gouging on petroleum fuels they however in most cases do not extend to ammunition. So you comparing illegal price gouging of gasoline with sellers of ammo asking current market value and conducting legal transactions in a free market as though the two are one in the same is bullshit Sir.
Another election year, another bunch of people incorrectly whining about what they think is "price gouging".
A store has the right to ask what they want to for a good. I equally have the right not to buy that good from them.
A store has the right to ask what they want to for a good. I equally have the right not to buy that good from them.
Get outa here wit dat. The bear pit is no place for logic and rational thought...
To be fair you created a thread on price gouging obviously it's what you wanted to discuss with the thread tittle "Price Gouging" under the context that "you're just too dam nice to price gouge" which reads like a guise intentionally employed so you can discuss price gouging and demean others for charging market value without them being able to make the usual responses like "you should've stocked up". And as if you're not aware using a demeaning term like price gouging vs saying charging market value shows bias on your POV of the situation anyway. Well I'm sorry but I'm not that sympathetic that one particular member lost his cool on you because I think you provoked it and he's just reading past your guise context.
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To make up for it I sold two glocks for $2k.
I'm usually a give-you-the-shirt-off-my-back kind of guy, to new shooters and those in dire need, but I'm getting kind of fed up with the ridiculousness lately.
I had lots of fun today on Gunbroker...
Got a 500-round case of Hornady Mk262 clone for $360 after shipping.
Saw 500 rounds of XM193 go for $605.
Then looked at all the M193 / SS109 / M855 sales out there to see who was buying. Found 3 douchebags trying to buy 80% of what was ending in the next 4 days.
So I bid them up with no intention of buying, $50-60 a lot. I just felt like being a dick to retards that wanna hoard.
When I figure out how to punish the profiteers selling the stuff they just got off of Targetsports at a 100% markup, they're next.
I had lots of fun today on Gunbroker...
Got a 500-round case of Hornady Mk262 clone for $360 after shipping.
Saw 500 rounds of XM193 go for $605.
Then looked at all the M193 / SS109 / M855 sales out there to see who was buying. Found 3 douchebags trying to buy 80% of what was ending in the next 4 days.
So I bid them up with no intention of buying, $50-60 a lot. I just felt like being a dick to retards that wanna hoard.
When I figure out how to punish the profiteers selling the stuff they just got off of Targetsports at a 100% markup, they're next.
Pretty much my take on this. It's as obvious as who the perp is in an episode of CSI. I saw stuff on the newsin March and went "oh fuck" then bought 55gr 223 bullets at a .08 each. Got in on some blasting 5.56 a couple months back at .30 for steel case which wasn't great then but it is now. It was definitely higher than the .18 it had been at pre covid but I knew it wasn't going down for a long time with the election coming and all. The only people who I feel bad for are the people who are newbs and are trying to chase stuff down for the first time. If they pay attention they'll get the lesson a lot of us did (or didn't listen to) in '13 with Sandy Hook. Always buy on the supply ebbs if possible because when the flows happen holy fuck they happen. Then again some people would get hit by a Mack truck and still not pay attention crossing the street.
Also, if you guys think this shit's bad I'd start buying food now. Although it's ancedotal the canned good section at the local Aldi has shrunk considerably in the last 6 months; The well is dry and I see China's production being shit along with a year or two of shit crop production in the US. That means inflationary prices on a lot of basic food goods. That also says nothing of rushes on food around election time that could happen, another wave of Corona shortages and the related supply side issues that have plagued us the last six months. You can't eat a bullet, well not in the food sense. Buying a few extra cans of food or a bag of rice here and there could save your bacon.
Box stores though? I would presume most of them have contracts for volume purchases that have some duration to them. If this goes on long enough their prices will probably go up too. Good luck getting it though.
That's the side of "price gouging" the OP is ignoring; At least you can get that stuff. There were only 2 handgun calibers on the shelves at the Farm and Fleets I went to last week. I think they were 44 mag and 45 Colt if memory serves right. Nothing in semi auto handgun. The rifle calibers sure as hell weren't 308, 5.56 or even 30-06 either thy were stuff like 243, 7-08, 270 win etc. which are more limited and even then most if not all the non-premium rounds were gone. Profit motivates things like new ammo plants getting made as well and in turn stabilizes the market in the long game. Aguilla expanded their ammo capacity 2X from 2013-2019 which was 500 million rounds a year. Would that have happened had the market not been willing to pay them as demanded for their ammo?
I would argue that through permitting and regulation the government is probably the biggest obstruction to you having more ammo and components. I would much rather see expedited permitting and approvals for import and manufacture of primers, propellants, bullets and precursors for making them than price controls. It would make things much better in the long run and probably reduce the hazard of having limited numbers of companies making ammo and components.
Florida has gouging laws. After Hurricane Ivan (I think), a fellow several states away saw an opportunity. He bought a truckload of generators drove down and set up in a parking lot with the owner's permission. He set the price at twice what he paid and the line was long. Someone complained that Home Depot sold the same generator for half the price. The entrepreneur suggested he go to HD and pick one up. Asshat customer drops a dime, cops come, arrest the seller and confiscate the generators.
Moral of the story: No one got a generator.
Limitations on ammo importation have indeed cramped the supply chain. To what extent, it's very difficult to say, as this really only affects finished cartridges that are considered armor-piercing, which obviously includes some fan favorites such as mil-surp 5.45x39 and 7.62x39, and potentially anything else with a steel core. But if you had, say, a hypothetical lot of lead-core ammo sitting offshore, file the paperwork and bring it in. The fact of the matter is that this hypothetical lot - and more importantly, the surplus industrial capacity to produce it - largely does not exist. Same for the components required to produce it.
Domestically, regulation may be a PITA for anyone wishing to manufacture ammo (or anything else, for that matter), but it's a red herring. If you've got the monetary capital to invest in the physical capital to manufacture ammo in high volume, it's just overhead. The bigger issue is that no one wants to invest in the physical capital just to accommodate a short-term need, and then watch the bottom fall out of the market when Trump wins and demand evaporates, or Biden wins and bans everything. I'm not privy to the financial records of ammo manufacturers, but I bet the 2-3 years running up to March of 2020 really sucked, and it's quite possible that by the time a new line is up and running by sometime in 2021, it's gonna be back to stacks of pallets in the aisles of Cabela's.
Oh, but this time, it's different. Yep - pretty sure that the CPAs at ammo and component manufacturers have heard that line again. And maybe it is different this time, and if that's the case, then the demand will still exist after the election and capital can be allocated properly. Otherwise, all the "smart money" is getting dumped into markets with better returns (like Apple and Tesla stock) where it's possible to make money with far less work (and much quicker returns) than making an actual product.
I honestly don't think the situation changes until the Trump adminstration does something similar to what was done with Kodak - invoke the Defense Production Act, and provide monetary capital at a low cost. And then that would just introduce distortions in the market that would have other unintended consequences, and then we're back to bitching about something else.
Hey when you really need something the ability to pay double price for it is a god send in comparison to not having it at all.
I'm not sure if you've been drinking or on the rag right now, but you've been warned before for this type of shit....see you in a week.
^^^^ THIS ^^^^
The buyers were "protected" from that evil "price gouging" in true Communist fashion.
Nobody gets anything.
Did the Government that was "protecting" them send somebody to another state to go buy a bunch of generators and then sell them to the idiots at the normal price and loose money on fuel and labour costs? Nope they just were happy to arrest the guy who did the work, seize his stuff, keep it all and the stupids can go back to having nothing.
The guy didn't go to the local store and buy up all the generators, he got picked them up a long way off and drove them to the area, and yes would like good compensation for their initiative, time, risk.
The whining idiots, were free to get in their car, drive to the next state, grab one at "normal" price and head back to their house.
I use that story specifically as an example of why these stupid "protection" laws don't do anything other than make sure nobody gets nothing.
Forget which storm, but generators were sold out as far as Jacksonville...300 miles from my house.
The point is that price gouging laws are immoral and destroy the very mechanism that stabilizes prices, supply, and demand.
Import limits are one thing, domestic manufacture is another. The sanctions put on China and Russia almost certainly have had an effect on ammo imports in a significant way.
It's not just overhead but rather how much overhead and possibly more importantly how much time. If a company spends 50 million on tooling but has to spend another 50 million on regulations they've just doubled the initial outlay. That limits potential investors especially archangel investors. Not only that but if it takes years to get permits which means those companies possibly missed a wave. Missing that wave could be the difference between amortizing that tooling in say 6-12 months or not amortizing the tooling until 5 years from now when the next wave hits. It's also committed money that's not making a return during that permitting process. At the very least you'd need BATFE, EPA, local and state permits. Someone is bound to also file a lawsuit for either NIMBYism or because they don't like guns and see an opportunity to obstruct.
This says nothing about government actions like Operation Choke Point that were used to limit access of arms makers to credit no matter how profitable or stable the ventures were. These seem to have been continued on without being legal code by several major banks such as BOA and Citibank.
That said I would debate the idea that there's not money to be had in ammo. How many new brands have sprung up over the last say 10 years? It's a shitton. If there was no money in it we'd all be shooting Federal, UMC and Winchester at this point plus a few imported equivalents at most. The market is correcting its self by upping supply but it's taking time. These things do not move on a dime.
...If you guys would practice fundamentals and learn how to shoot better, you wouldn't need so much ammo.
Wait - Capitalism is the only way! Free market loving gun toting god fearing people are who most of the gun world is made up of. someone over charges over pays and people whine that it's gouging and there should be laws against it. kiss my ass.
If someone pays it the it wasn't to high! it's called free market don't bitch when it doesn't go your way. And be real any real shooters aren't paying these higher prices we all just lay low for a little. And the what happens in 18 months I will be buying AR's and cases of ammo for pennys on the dollar when the people feel safe again.
If someone pays it the it wasn't to high! it's called free market don't bitch when it doesn't go your way. And be real any real shooters aren't paying these higher prices we all just lay low for a little. And the what happens in 18 months I will be buying AR's and cases of ammo for pennys on the dollar when the people feel safe again.
I figured if that happens they would accidentally turn them into SBRs due to their ignorance.
I personally don't have a problem with price gouging. You don't have to buy it at those prices. Or you could plan better. After all, its not the first shortage in history!
The problem that I do have is that during the last shortage there were lots of "handicapped" people going to Walmart and other places on the days that shipments arrived (while everyone else was working)and buying all of the ammo and then putting it on auction sites like Gunbroker. If they were truly handicapped walking thru Walmart and carrying ammo to the parking lot would be a big challenge. And the small fact that "we" are paying them not to work because they are handicapped. Not to mention that small thing called income tax. Yup, pisses me off it does!
The problem that I do have is that during the last shortage there were lots of "handicapped" people going to Walmart and other places on the days that shipments arrived (while everyone else was working)and buying all of the ammo and then putting it on auction sites like Gunbroker. If they were truly handicapped walking thru Walmart and carrying ammo to the parking lot would be a big challenge. And the small fact that "we" are paying them not to work because they are handicapped. Not to mention that small thing called income tax. Yup, pisses me off it does!
Random thoughts:
Why is it every time someone mentions a law against price gouging the k nee-jer reaction is "YOU COMMIE SOB" Have we really come to that?
Why is it everytime someone finds ammo./reloading supplies they feel the need to buy them ALL and then post it on Social Media.
Free Markets rely on people acting rationally. People are not rational--therin lies the problem. (see toilet paper shortage or better yet bottled water shortage).
Long stroy short: Be excellent to each other--but assume everyone is out to dick you over.
Why is it every time someone mentions a law against price gouging the k nee-jer reaction is "YOU COMMIE SOB" Have we really come to that?
Why is it everytime someone finds ammo./reloading supplies they feel the need to buy them ALL and then post it on Social Media.
Free Markets rely on people acting rationally. People are not rational--therin lies the problem. (see toilet paper shortage or better yet bottled water shortage).
Long stroy short: Be excellent to each other--but assume everyone is out to dick you over.
Would you care to explain why there was a bottled watter/toilet paper shortage? The demand spiked because of panic not any real increase consumption (not unlike our current ammo crisis). The problem is if one increases output (invests capital), on the other side the shortage is going to to be a glut/depressed deman badly rendering that investment moot and causing companies to possibly fail contracting the supply even further leading to boom/bust cycles.
Of course the only thing worse is Government trying to control this which would just magnify the problem.
Welcome to economics where its all made up and the points don't matter
Welp on this we agree..Free Market is the best way to solve it.
And my point was we can't solve it as long as people behave irrationally. (aka you cannot plan for unplanned behavior--therin lies the solution to the "There should be a law", planning always fails).
Two years ago bunch of housewives here in Texas started a rumor that there was to be a gas shortage (due to a Hurricane in Houston). That damn near ran Dallas outta gas for a couple of weeks. Who the hell can predict that? Invariably some jagoff would have said "Did you stock up on gas when it was available" No because for 45 freaking years there has been no gas shortage. And the rest of the country had plenty, but for some reason every a-hole in the DFW metro had to fill up their car every day.
I wish I had an answer, but people in large numbers are extra stupid and because stuff like this and we have to learn to suck it up. I have to fight my instincts to buy more myself as the stupid tries to draw me in as I did get enough to last me a while (but am short of 7.62x39) but i t had already eaten into my pistol shooting.
Or you could just go "STFU commie" but I really hate that short explanation (its kinda like a right-wring version of the race card).
I was in the middle of that, however it was more like 3 to 4 days where gas was a bit scarce, and a week where there were lines at the gas pumps.
Having just gotten a 50mpg vehicle and making sure I was over half tank meant I wasn't freaked out.
BUT what it did do, is get me off my ass to make sure I always have a couple weeks worth of driving gas stored in the garage.
So yes, temporary gasoline shortages are something you can & should plan for.
If you are in an area that gets hit by costal storms, then it's probably something that actually happens every couple years.
You obviously haven't been through a disaster, everything is at a premium.
I have a home in Ohio and Florida.
How much do you think.a shitty piece of sheeting cost in Ohio right now?
I would like to argue against this. Free markets are a hedge against people acting irrationally. Here's why. Lets say someone turns on CNN and they see non stop coverage of a pandemic, international uncertainty, supply chain disruptions, riots and other civil unrest. Lets say they look on YouTube, Google, ask the "gun guy" they know or whatever and come to some conclusion they need 50K rounds to hoard. At $.15 a round that's a pretty spicy meatball at $7500. 7.62X39 was roughly at that point for bottom of the barrel steel cased Tula at the beginning of the year. Fast forward to now and that ammo would be roughly $15K. $7500 is a lot more affordable than $30K, so instead of buying it all up a purchase decision is made to buy less (or none) and wait it out. If price controls were in place this person would have bought all that ammo up and with a somewhat fixed rate of ammo being made no one else gets any at that time.
The irational Disfunctional Engineer would have a garage of Lambos, Ferraris and cool domestic muscle cars making 600+HP each. The rational Disfunctional Engineer has none of these because he has a wife and kid to feed.
The facts have smacked me back to my realities.
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This is coming from a handicapped person that doesn't shop at Walmart or GunbrokerI personally don't have a problem with price gouging. You don't have to buy it at those prices. Or you could plan better. After all, its not the first shortage in history!
The problem that I do have is that during the last shortage there were lots of "handicapped" people going to Walmart and other places on the days that shipments arrived (while everyone else was working)and buying all of the ammo and then putting it on auction sites like Gunbroker. If they were truly handicapped walking thru Walmart and carrying ammo to the parking lot would be a big challenge. And the small fact that "we" are paying them not to work because they are handicapped. Not to mention that small thing called income tax. Yup, pisses me off it does!
Go fuck yourself and get off your high horse.
I don't see how that negates my point. If sheeting is at a huge premium, more than likely there is interest in anyone with extra stocks of it, in making sure supply gets to where the spiking demand is (Assuming the government doesn't screw it over).
The problem in a lot of places actually is stupid planning and construction based on somebody else paying for it when things go wrong.
For places that are prone to huge coastal storms, the houses are built like garbage in Florida.
It's always a Disaster there every time a big hurricane hits.
Meanwhile some of us may have grown up dealing with yearly Cyclones, but in houses built to last, so riding out a direct hit from a super storm means fixing a broken window and clearing the broken trees and rubble from the yard.
Or you are up on the 30th floor of an apartment building and get to enjoy feeling the building wave it the storm just a bit, but no worries, it was built for it.
Every year the fires are a disaster in California.
Meanwhile others in older more enlightened times, people spent a good month before fire season, clearing firebreaks.
No power for a month?
Depends on your setup, been there done it long ago, in a place well setup. not a big deal at the time, just means kerosene pressure lanterns and walking around in nothing but short short skirts and flip flops to keep cool while eating mostly canned or dried food cooked on an LPG stove.
Around here it would be the end of the world.
The problem is that we are all very advanced in our society, but it's become incredibly fragile
You might get your chance.
Biden gets elected, you might be able to unload all your excess AR15s, standard capacity magazines and bulk .223 and 9mm ammo at prices that will enable you to consolidate (if that's your thing). If there is a huge panic like that, the better part of my collection goes up for sale at the LGS once the price gets to something that motivates me to want to sell.
I would like to argue against this. Free markets are a hedge against people acting irrationally. Here's why. Lets say someone turns on CNN and they see non stop coverage of a pandemic, international uncertainty, supply chain disruptions, riots and other civil unrest. Lets say they look on YouTube, Google, ask the "gun guy" they know or whatever and come to some conclusion they need 50K rounds to hoard. At $.15 a round that's a pretty spicy meatball at $7500. 7.62X39 was roughly at that point for bottom of the barrel steel cased Tula at the beginning of the year. Fast forward to now and that ammo would be roughly $15K. $7500 is a lot more affordable than $30K, so instead of buying it all up a purchase decision is made to buy less (or none) and wait it out. If price controls were in place this person would have bought all that ammo up and with a somewhat fixed rate of ammo being made no one else gets any at that time.
The irational Disfunctional Engineer would have a garage of Lambos, Ferraris and cool domestic muscle cars making 600+HP each. The rational Disfunctional Engineer has none of these because he has a wife and kid to feed.
I'd argue that is actually "rational" behavior. The problem is what happens when all the idiots decide to buy toilet paper for no reason. All of a sudden there is 0 toilet paper--even at $100 a roll. I think water was a perfect example--why would our water supply be threatened and yet people were buying bottled water out the ass in March (I drink sparkling water as a sub for pop which is why it irritated me and I noticed). Even going back to the gas problem--sure afterwards it is easy to say "well ok i learned my lesson, ill keep gas on hand" The real trick is how to tell this thing is going to happen ahead of time. Sure--you live on the coast, you are prepped to be w/o power/food/water for days.
You live up north, you own a shovel/snowblower. (or buy coats when they go on sale in the summer). But who can predict a snowstorm in Mexico City
The real trick is how do you know ahead of time that the idiots decide "lets create a gas panic"--and there really is no hedge against that kind of behavior. And that's the real kicker--what's to say there's a revolution tommorow and all our rubber supply dries up. Suddenly tires go up 10X. Ivariably some idiot will say "well should have stocked up on tires"
Fact is no one saw COVID coming and YOU CANNOT DEAL WITH PANIC. That is what is so damn scary about the mob. And the really scary things is there is no way to curtail it. No law, no regulation, no amount of education will ever be enough to prevent people from panic.
Well I needed to add that 2 weeks before the hurricane hit down south the price was $18.00
The government does their part to mandate products so they get to disaster hit areas.
You haven't experienced how people literally will try to rob you blind, it has nothing to do with planning.
Most people in Florida know they need to be prepared.
I see your point about the Government fucking shit up,believe me.
Try to buy insurances for your home down here,the first time it's a steep learning experience.
The guy with the generator's was a total dick and I remember it like it was yesterday.
People wanted to kill him and there was a lot more involved than him just selling a few gen sets from out of state.
Look,I realize prices are going to fluctuate,you remember 2013?
I have been preaching to the choir for the last 2 YEARS about buying ammo while it was at rock bottom.
Now, along comes a guy bitching about buying a few boxes of shit from Walmart of all places.
While he was at it he also blamed handicaps for his pussy hurting.
If you are sitting on a mountain of ammo that you aren’t going to shoot, and are now taking advantage of the “panic” to make some scratch, more power to you. If you are a retailer that has increased your prices, and/or are limiting purchases in order to maintain some amount of stock, you go girl (or boi). But, if you‘re camping out in front of the big box stores to raid them to go sell at the local gun show, I’ve got unkind thoughts for you that I won’t type out...
Nah brother, all I got is this duck gun and a box of steel bird shot.
I am just here for the lulz
I would suggest we aren’t being gouged enough if they don’t have ammo to sell.
The purpose of raising your rates is to ensure with just in time production you are delivering product to vendors just as the last of their inventory is sold.
If you find yourself with excess inventory then demand and supply are reaching equilibrium in uneasy markets and you need to lower your raised prices.
The purpose of raising your rates is to ensure with just in time production you are delivering product to vendors just as the last of their inventory is sold.
If you find yourself with excess inventory then demand and supply are reaching equilibrium in uneasy markets and you need to lower your raised prices.
And a CAT 1 hits the NE and causes as much, or more, damage as a 4 or 5 on the Gulf of Mexico.
I never met the guy as I already had a generator...and fuel...and ammo...
How many?
I just paid $300 a few weeks ago myself...
But I got 10,000 CCI34's for that. That was actually a decent price, I think I have some with $20 tags from several years ago, so if you look it's there, be patient.
Funny, some of you guys advocating higher prices are the very ones that expect people to basically give shit away in the PX... Not all of you but you know who you are.
People don't understand that things like logging were actually a net good for the forest if done properly. It made fire fighter access easier (logging roads that probably also helped as fire brakes) and cleared material to burn out of forests. Now then you can overdo it just like anything but knee jerk environmentalism is a form of ignorance in its own right.
There's a LOT of truth to the idea that infrastructure is/has become fragile. I think so may people moved out of the real world into the digital world we have lost our understanding of what we got that was so great in the early 20th century. We are so focused on stuff like the Internet, food showing up via apps and Amazon showing up in 48 hours we forget that people used to not have electricity, indoor plumbing and limited communications.
I'm doing some catch up but at this point I'm starting to buy say 10-15 bucks extra every time I go to the grocery store of food that doesn't perish. The goal is to make it while there may be some discomfort there won't be starvation and to get enough food where I can eat what I buy before it expires so say at least 1 to 2 years ahead. I'm working on a system to rotate it based on when it expires. I really want to get a 120, 250, 325 or 500 gallon propane tank to supplement my generator with. In the interim I'm stashing grill bottles which should give me ~12 hours each I think.
I think it was Forstchen's "One Second After" that talked about reverting back to the 1800s after the lights went out. Someone responded "More like the 1400s because we had forgotten/lost so much about farming, living off the land and general survival. In his (fictional) scenario, about 20 percent of the population survived the first year.
Obama taught me a valuable lesson twelve years ago.
I bought tesla back at $109 a share sold half when it hit $2400 did I "price gouge" the guy that bought my shares? I also bought some gold back when it was $800 a ounce, sold it when it got to $1600, am I price gouging on that?
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