New rifles shoots 14 mils low
- Thread starter Jack Master
- Start date
Yep. Just as I thought. Not one useful piece of advice for this situation.
FFS, it’s one self-righteous post from this mofo after another.
@CrabsandFootball - why don’t you start another thread on the subject of minimum money needed to be spent on a precision rifle and quit garbaging up this thread with your entirely unsupported views that 14 mil low @ 100 is due to this guy not spending enough.
and by the by, you were def throwing shade so cut the bullshit.
@CrabsandFootball - why don’t you start another thread on the subject of minimum money needed to be spent on a precision rifle and quit garbaging up this thread with your entirely unsupported views that 14 mil low @ 100 is due to this guy not spending enough.
and by the by, you were def throwing shade so cut the bullshit.
It would at least cut the error in half maybe a little more considering the scope will have more internal adjustment. I’m guessing with the equipment you proposed , the rifle would almost zero. Gotta pay to play homie.Screw a crooked barrel into a TL3 action with a Sphur mount, and TT scope, and see where your zero ends up.
Is there a gas leak in here or something???
After reading three pages of this stuff, I guess my take away is that it might be a good idea to shoot a gun as bone stock as possible before you start bolting a bunch of parts on. (obviously need a scope and mount here, but otherwise...)
I get that building out in one go seems cool, and if everything goes right, you look super awesome, but when they don't, and the "what the *&^% is wrong game begins, and you don't know where to start.
If the barrel or action is out of spec, it will be a lot easier to get the maker to take the gun back (in as built condition) and make it right when your phone call doesn't start with "we changed a bunch of things on this gun, and it doesn't work..."
I get that building out in one go seems cool, and if everything goes right, you look super awesome, but when they don't, and the "what the *&^% is wrong game begins, and you don't know where to start.
If the barrel or action is out of spec, it will be a lot easier to get the maker to take the gun back (in as built condition) and make it right when your phone call doesn't start with "we changed a bunch of things on this gun, and it doesn't work..."
I have a couple of savage rifles that I would gladly put up against whatever you have if you want to put your money were your mouth is.
Or are you just full of shit ?
Whoopty fucking do, it's not the brand it's the person behind it pulling the trigger.
I have some really nice rifles as well that shoot better than I'm capable of I also have a Savage that will and has shot better than .250" MOA at 200 yards with factory hunting ammo numerous times.
Over the last 30+ years what single brand of rifle has failed in more LR precision courses than all other combined.......................Savage.
You can shoot tiny groups on a square range where you baby the gun. Any decent barrel will shoot.
Oh yea the illustrious $400 rack grade savage that shoots sub 1/4MOA with off the shelf hunting ammo. Every gun club has atleast one of them. Funny how the can never repeat it when you ask them to show you.
Field shooting kills them. Sorry to break it to ya.
You can shoot tiny groups on a square range where you baby the gun. Any decent barrel will shoot.
Oh yea the illustrious $400 rack grade savage that shoots sub 1/4MOA with off the shelf hunting ammo. Every gun club has atleast one of them. Funny how the can never repeat it when you ask them to show you.
Field shooting kills them. Sorry to break it to ya.
So is that you crawfishing or crab fishing out of the challenge?
The rifle I mentioned has been pretty much exclusively used for hunting, wet,dusty, freezing conditions so no not a range queen.
I don't care win loose or draw just get tired of people painting a broad brush stroke on certain gear.
I have a new member that I don't know personally but have offered to let use some of the equipment I have to make a personal choice that can be a witness for me if you want to back up some of the mouth your throwing out.
I have nothing to lose since I am pretty much offering to shoot a basically stock savage against whatever you want in your arsenal.
100 yard groups, 200, 500, 600 for record I'm game.
Does the rifle have a muzzle brake on it? If so you should also check to make sure that it's the correct size, properly aligned, and the bullet is not impacting it.
along with that I'd check bore diameter, followed by chamber dimensions. Cerrosafe chamber casting alloy is not terribly expensive, $10-15, easy to use, and can tell you a lot.
Look through the action and barrel at a sheet of paper, or a blank wall and see if you can see any sort of elipse at the muzle. Since the bullet is impacting low the barrel would look round at the top at the muzzle, but flattened at the bottom. You might also want to try removing the scope and stock, put the barreled action up on v-blocks of wood. Set up a dot or a target, get it aligned by boresighting, and then slowly spin the barreled action doing your best not to move it around. (This can be living room distance, doesn't need to be at the range) Watch the dot as a reference point to see if the muzzle is tracking off center. Might be hard to tell without setting up a pretty serious fixture, but might be an easier way for your eye to recognize an issue than just looking through it.
along with that I'd check bore diameter, followed by chamber dimensions. Cerrosafe chamber casting alloy is not terribly expensive, $10-15, easy to use, and can tell you a lot.
Look through the action and barrel at a sheet of paper, or a blank wall and see if you can see any sort of elipse at the muzle. Since the bullet is impacting low the barrel would look round at the top at the muzzle, but flattened at the bottom. You might also want to try removing the scope and stock, put the barreled action up on v-blocks of wood. Set up a dot or a target, get it aligned by boresighting, and then slowly spin the barreled action doing your best not to move it around. (This can be living room distance, doesn't need to be at the range) Watch the dot as a reference point to see if the muzzle is tracking off center. Might be hard to tell without setting up a pretty serious fixture, but might be an easier way for your eye to recognize an issue than just looking through it.
D
Deleted member 113831
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Nope. Not the point of this thread.
The point of this thread is that there is a major problem with the rifle system that obviously goes a magnitude BEYOND all the little bullshit that can normally happen. Yet somehow, few people seem to have the experience to realize that...but that sure as fuck doesn't keep them from chiming in with dumbass commentary and being douchebags in general.
Nobody gives a goddamn about your opinion of Savage.
Savage is not the cause of the problem at hand.
If you think it is, then you are proving how fucking retarded you are.
YOU... for the umpteenth time, have derailed a thread with your inane bullshit.
Shut...the...fuck...up.
Savage is crap but they ain’t that much crap. I’m ready to see what the problem is already.
I can’t imagine anything causing a gun to shoot that far off unless it was messed up bad enough you could visually see the problem.
I can’t imagine anything causing a gun to shoot that far off unless it was messed up bad enough you could visually see the problem.
My Dick Is BIG and I only buy expensive stuff, is that any help to the OP??
D
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By my calculations, a 24" barrel would only need a 0.33" bend to account for 14 mils @ 100 yds.
With the bore of the 6.5 Creed being so much smaller than the cartridge base, it would be much easier to overlook the bend while centering that small point of light in the relatively large black hole of the chamber.
Just a theory.
I'd guess bore is wrong too, but I'm really just tagging in to watch the show and see what the problem ends up being. The brake idea was a decent one, too. Jack, please don't let the fuck yards deter you from filling the rest of us in.
interesting thought. and maybe its a completely experience based thing but those guys at the factory would be seeing the same thing (minus the action) when straightening the barrel.
Ive called savage for a few friends and gotten meh answers (probably changed hands since then) but I'd definitely do that before taking it apart myself for the sake of warrenty. ill spare everyone my savage stories but thats just to say that I think itll come down to it being a factory defect.
In all seriousness he could shoot it upside down or even sideways and that would tell if the barrel was bent.
500mm or 20in barrel the displacement of muzzle approximates 1/4 inch (6-7mm)
(Trig calculation assumes the barrel is straight but off axis. Degree converted from Mils, etc)
Send it back and have it fixed. Like others have said something is fucked with the gun. Sometimes QC takes a holiday, easier to have them fix it rather than dealing with it yourself.
If it groups decently my guess is a bent barrel. If groups are terrible it’s probably an oversized bore for the ammo. Either bored too big or he’s accidentally shooting 6 creed instead of 6.5. Either way, assuming he has the right ammo, it seems like a barrel issue.
Yeah, I think we’re on the same page. Some are suggesting to look down the breech to see if the bore opening looks eclipsed. If it were that bent, you could see it from the outside. It doesn’t take that much bend to throw a shot off by what the OP is observing. In fact, nightforce made a scope mount that could account for that much- a 50 moa rail, though the only one I found was for a Rem 700...
Does op ever say how the brass looks coming out? Wouldn't the brass be screwed up? Not advising just curious now
Can you chuck it up in a lathe and spin it with a dial indicator on the barrel?
I think have the man send it back. Savage will take care of it. He will get it back and it will shoot acceptable groups.
As far as all the rhetoric goes from crabs and soccer, ignore ignoranuses (Both ignorant and assholes). Which is not quite as good an insult as being an obtuse fuck stick. Only Skookum can say those things.
I guess I must have misread something in there. New rifle needs a new barrel.
I just ran into that problem on my new bow. Built it with new everything and chased my tail for way too long. Eventually the problem shows itself if you're patient enough.
Update
Last night was our Thursday Gun Night Fun Night and I got to see that savage again. my Buddy got Plandemic tested and was negative so he could come out and play.
Last week
He took the rifle to the local gun store last week and they talked him into new rings for the scope. They got out the alignment bars and showed him the rings he had didn't line up.
Testing
We shot the rifle again last night. This time we dialed his scope all the way to top of the elevation and at 12 yards from the target we are still 3.5 inches low. This still leaves us 8 mils low and the scope is out of available elevation. I got behind the rifle to tripple check the bore sight. I aimed the scope at the center of the target and when I looked through the bore it was 4-5 inches above the center of the target. There is absolutely no way the barrel is pointed any where near the point of impact. The rifle shot about a 1" group at 12 yards, so there is some consistency in where the shots are going.
Scope, rings and base check
Just to triple check we switched to a one piece base and an Athlon Ares BTR that is a proven scope. (I've shot local comps with it) and shot the rifle again. Same result, 8 mils low. These shots actually landed within an inch of the last shots on the target.
Barrel Check
Our last step was to change back to the factory stock. As we were doing this I grabbed a framing square and laid it up on the rifle barrel. It rocked about 0.10" at the muzzle. Then I put the square on the bottom of the barrel and it had a gap in the middle about the same size. This barrel is surly not straight. About 7" from the muzzle appeared to be a change in the barrel alignment. Also, in the same area appeared to be a spot that looked different in the metal, like a fold in the steel.
Conclusions
We quite there and chalked it up being a bent barrel. Now we'll see what the gun shop and savage will do to help.
I forget to measure the bore (damn). Our next steps were to try the factory stock and then shoot it upside down but we quite.
Discussion
I know they straighten barrels in the factory. The "bent Barrel" could be the factory straightening the bore. Just because the outside is not straight doe not mean the bore is not straight. I understand this. The spot in the metal was the telling tail. Having these two together can not be a coincidence. (Gibs' rule #39) If there barrel was straightened in the factory I would expect there to be a slight taper or curve to the entire length rather than one noticeable bend. Unfortunately I didn't get a picture of the framing square on the barrel.
@Skookum had it right.
Last night was our Thursday Gun Night Fun Night and I got to see that savage again. my Buddy got Plandemic tested and was negative so he could come out and play.
Last week
He took the rifle to the local gun store last week and they talked him into new rings for the scope. They got out the alignment bars and showed him the rings he had didn't line up.
Testing
We shot the rifle again last night. This time we dialed his scope all the way to top of the elevation and at 12 yards from the target we are still 3.5 inches low. This still leaves us 8 mils low and the scope is out of available elevation. I got behind the rifle to tripple check the bore sight. I aimed the scope at the center of the target and when I looked through the bore it was 4-5 inches above the center of the target. There is absolutely no way the barrel is pointed any where near the point of impact. The rifle shot about a 1" group at 12 yards, so there is some consistency in where the shots are going.
Scope, rings and base check
Just to triple check we switched to a one piece base and an Athlon Ares BTR that is a proven scope. (I've shot local comps with it) and shot the rifle again. Same result, 8 mils low. These shots actually landed within an inch of the last shots on the target.
Barrel Check
Our last step was to change back to the factory stock. As we were doing this I grabbed a framing square and laid it up on the rifle barrel. It rocked about 0.10" at the muzzle. Then I put the square on the bottom of the barrel and it had a gap in the middle about the same size. This barrel is surly not straight. About 7" from the muzzle appeared to be a change in the barrel alignment. Also, in the same area appeared to be a spot that looked different in the metal, like a fold in the steel.
Conclusions
We quite there and chalked it up being a bent barrel. Now we'll see what the gun shop and savage will do to help.
I forget to measure the bore (damn). Our next steps were to try the factory stock and then shoot it upside down but we quite.
Discussion
I know they straighten barrels in the factory. The "bent Barrel" could be the factory straightening the bore. Just because the outside is not straight doe not mean the bore is not straight. I understand this. The spot in the metal was the telling tail. Having these two together can not be a coincidence. (Gibs' rule #39) If there barrel was straightened in the factory I would expect there to be a slight taper or curve to the entire length rather than one noticeable bend. Unfortunately I didn't get a picture of the framing square on the barrel.
@Skookum had it right.
Local Gun shop he bought it from is sending it back to Savage.
Anyone know how long it should take to get is back? Is this a 3 week for 3 months wait?
Thanks
Anyone know how long it should take to get is back? Is this a 3 week for 3 months wait?
Thanks
Jack, I think with the scamdemic err i mean pandemic going on it is anyones guess. I sent a faulty suppressor back to the manufacturer in March and got it back last week...
A friend of mine sent one back this summer for oversized scope base holes. They ended up replacing the action and I think it was about 2 months.
Damn.... All that money for expensive rifles and yet you couldn’t buy any class
The part of this that is baffling to me is that you have aligned the bore with the scope POA so at 100 the impact should have been close. I've done the pull the bolt, line the rifle up on the orange dot and bring the reticle to the dot trick every time I've mounted a new scope and they are usually a little off but like you say, on a sheet of 8½x11. It makes not sense that the bore and the scope are pointed to the same place and the bullet doesn't end up there.
Did you try dropping a 6.5 bullet in the muzzle, and is the fired brass blown out? I swear it sounds like rattling a 6.5 down a 7mm barrel.
Hey, before you laugh too hard, I had a guy shooting next to me one day figure out after 3 shots that he was trying to shoot 6s in a 7 and they wouldn't reach the target at 1000.
Did you try dropping a 6.5 bullet in the muzzle, and is the fired brass blown out? I swear it sounds like rattling a 6.5 down a 7mm barrel.
Hey, before you laugh too hard, I had a guy shooting next to me one day figure out after 3 shots that he was trying to shoot 6s in a 7 and they wouldn't reach the target at 1000.
This is precisely why I asked about this in a public forum. None of it made sense. I don't think we could see the barrel bend through the the bore. We are aligning concentric circles when we bore sight through the bore and this 0.1" bend was not observable.
I for get to measure the bore, although I wish I would have.
A rod would be too flexible over that length to get any usable info out of. You could drop a gauge pin or Grizzly rod down it to see if it got stuck. Theoretically you could calculate bend by seeing what length/diameter rod would pass through and what sticks.
Pulling a piece of thread through the bore tight is another trick you can use. You rotate the barrel so the string is pulled down the top, bottom, and sides, and look for differences. Again not easy to pick up a small amount of bend.
Barrel straightening is probably still pretty common for a lot of rack/production grade barrels. Ideally done before the drilled blank is contoured and stress relieved. That way the turned blank is relatively straight to the bore and has minimal residual stress.
Pulling a piece of thread through the bore tight is another trick you can use. You rotate the barrel so the string is pulled down the top, bottom, and sides, and look for differences. Again not easy to pick up a small amount of bend.
Barrel straightening is probably still pretty common for a lot of rack/production grade barrels. Ideally done before the drilled blank is contoured and stress relieved. That way the turned blank is relatively straight to the bore and has minimal residual stress.
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UPDATE:
Buddy finally got this rifle back this week.
Savage put on a new barrel, new bolt and new trigger in the rifle. We have not shot it for tests yet but at least we have it back. (6 months later)
Buddy finally got this rifle back this week.
Savage put on a new barrel, new bolt and new trigger in the rifle. We have not shot it for tests yet but at least we have it back. (6 months later)
how is it in any way possible to close the bolt on a 270 win with a 308 chamber?
You bench quigleyford concrete or whatever the saying is. Weakling.
Either troll or you shouldn't even be allowed a library card
When you run a bolt like you’re supposed to you don’t even notice it.
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