Lee Customer Service Issue

[Vamike9]

Recently picked up a Lee Pro 1000 die set in 9mm, also picked up a Lee factory crimp die to add to it...

The problem is with the sizing die it seemed, as it would show the bullet base imprint through the case after seating the bullet.

So after checking with other experienced reloaders, I decided to call Lee this morning.

They were not helpful, and although I was respectful they seemed insulted and didn't want to accept responsibility.

They told me that I could try to do a partial sizing by backing off 1/4 to 1/2 turn on the sizing die?...

I told them I use several different guns and do not want clambering issues.

They said that I could pay the shipping to send it in, and they would look to see if the tolerances were too tight or out of spec...

He acted as though this was a nuisance call more than anything else.

Now, I have not had this sizing problem with any other manufacturer.

I will stick with RCBS, Redding and Hornady from now on...

 

[FLIGHT762]

What do you want them to do? What would have satisfied you? If the die is out of spec., send it in to them. I had this issue recently with a rifle die from another manufacturer. I sent the die back. They skimmed the die and sent it back. The die now works perfectly.

Manufacturers deal with this all of the time. Sometimes there is a real issue. Most of the time it is user error, not saying this is the case with you.

Yes, it is a pain in the ass, and it will cost you about $8.00 for Priority Mail, but you won't know anything by not sending the die in to them.

 

[squishee]

Those other companies will tell you the same thing if you have an issue.
And yes they have issues too.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

9mm is a slightly tapered case. Every 9mm die I have ever had does that.

That is the whole reason the 9mm factory crimp dies exist.

 

[Vamike9]

What do you want them to do? What would have satisfied you? If the die is out of spec., send it in to them. I had this issue recently with a rifle die from another manufacturer. I sent the die back. They skimmed the die and sent it back. The die now works perfectly.

Manufacturers deal with this all of the time. Sometimes there is a real issue. Most of the time it is user error, not saying this is the case with you.

Yes, it is a pain in the ass, and it will cost you about $8.00 for Priority Mail, but you won't know anything by not sending the die in to them.

It is the way the head guy acted, I explained it more thoroughly to him as well.

I've got thick skin, but let me tell you from previous experience, RCBS, Redding and Forster do not treat customers with this same sort of attitude.

If I caused the issue then I would absolutely pay the shipping every single time.

Honestly, I was dissatisfied with the whole deal.

I would NEVER tell someone to partially resize a case that will be fired in multiple firearms...

THAT IS NOT GOOD ADVICE.

This is not a rant, more of an experience for you to keep in mind.

 

[Vamike9]

9mm is a slightly tapered case. Every 9mm die I have ever had does that.

That is the whole reason the 9mm factory crimp dies exist.

Yes, I bought the factory crimp die and actually like that.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Yes, I bought the factory crimp die and actually like that.

Then why not use it....the way the rest of us do, and drive on? If the die does not size the case to the point that it causes this side effect, then there will not be enough neck tension to prevent bullet set back in the case.

 

[Vamike9]

i

Then why not use it....the way the rest of us do, and drive on? If the die does not size the case to the point that it causes this side effect, then there will not be enough neck tension to prevent bullet set back in the case.

I set the factory crimp die but
it didn't remove the bullet imprint?...

 

[Vamike9]

Not trying to open a can of worms, this thread was about customer service or the lack thereof.

 

[RTH1800]

I am not understainding the actual problem. You can see where the bullet stops in the case? So, you think the die is undersizing the case diameter and the bullet expands to the point it ends, thus leaving a "ring"?
How does the ammo shoot in the variuos weapons?
Lee makes fair products at a low price. Simple tools to do simple jobs. If you are looking for more, try Redding.

 

[RTH1800]

Not trying to open a can of worms, this thread was about customer service or the lack thereof.

You must understand that to evaluate customer service level, we must understand the problem.
So far, you seem butt hurt over what appears to others to be fair standard of service on a very low priced peice of kit. Did you want them to send a limo out to pick it up and leave roses on your porch?

 

[GONE BAD]

Hmmm.
I have the same dies and run mixed brass, whatever I can find, pick up, or buy and some do what you say and some doesn't.
It all shoots just fine!
If you send it in and they hone the die and you change brass neck tension might be to loose!

 

[Vamike9]

You must understand that to evaluate customer service level, we must understand the problem.
So far, you seem butt hurt over what appears to others to be fair standard of service on a very low priced peice of kit. Did you want them to send a limo out to pick it up and leave roses on your porch?

Like I stated at the beginning, you can see the bullets imprint through the case...
This does not happen with all of my other die setups, and even the rep at Lee explained that this could be a bit too tight in the tolerance category.
I will use another die, as this sizing die did not give me much confidence moving forward.
When I make ammo, I prefer for it not to have bullet bulge...

 

[Vamike9]

Hmmm.
I have the same dies and run mixed brass, whatever I can find, pick up, or buy and some do what you say and some doesn't.
It all shoots just fine!
If you send it in and they hone the die and you change brass neck tension might be to loose!

Yes, I've discovered that this seems to happen most with Lee dies.

 

[918v]

Why do you care about the bullet “imprint”? It doesn’t affect chambering. It indicates you have a good amount of grip on the bullet.

 

[RTH1800]

It also indicates an overworking of the brass. Could be an issue if you load it a lot.

 

[clcustom1911]

Recently picked up a Lee Pro 1000 die set in 9mm, also picked up a Lee factory crimp die to add to it...

The problem is with the sizing die it seemed, as it would show the bullet base imprint through the case after seating the bullet.

So after checking with other experienced reloaders, I decided to call Lee this morning.

They were not helpful, and although I was respectful they seemed insulted and didn't want to accept responsibility.

They told me that I could try to do a partial sizing by backing off 1/4 to 1/2 turn on the sizing die?...

I told them I use several different guns and do not want clambering issues.

They said that I could pay the shipping to send it in, and they would look to see if the tolerances were too tight or out of spec...

He acted as though this was a nuisance call more than anything else.

Now, I have not had this sizing problem with any other manufacturer.

I will stick with RCBS, Redding and Hornady from now on...

As long as the cartridge goes through your Carbide crimp die, it will chamber just fine.

Load and shoot.

 

[918v]

It also indicates an overworking of the brass. Could be an issue if you load it a lot.

no it doesn’t that’s retarded

 

[RTH1800]

no it doesn’t that’s retarded

Seriously?

 

[RTH1800]

Moving the brass further than reqired is the definition of overworking it. Brass life is extended by only moving it the absolute smallest amount to accomplish the goal of holding the bullet and chambering in the pistol. Movement beyond that is overworking and will cause premature failure.

 

[supercorndogs]

All my 40 and 9mm does it that. I have some 40 that has been reloaded quite a few times.

 

[Ozarkcop]

Lee customer service does suck. I contacted them a couple of years ago about my Lee hand Primer jamming up and they informed me they had a new design and I should just buy it or the upgrade, mine was about a year old . But as far as your issue, my Dillon dies due the same thing, but it dose not affect the shootability of the rounds.

 

[Doom]

I have encountered this with both 9mm and 45ACP RCBS dies and certain brands of brass and bullets. I have also seen factory loads with this. I don’t worry about it.

 

[Vamike9]

Lee customer service does suck. I contacted them a couple of years ago about my Lee hand Primer jamming up and they informed me they had a new design and I should just buy it or the upgrade, mine was about a year old . But as far as your issue, my Dillon dies due the same thing, but it dose not affect the shootability of the rounds.

Thanks for the reply, and yes the lack of CS was the point that I tried to make.
I will say that functionality is fine but I just like to make the best rounds inside and out that are possible.

I wasn't here to bash anyone, but the CS was so bad that I couldn't resist at least mentioning it to you all.

 

[Barelstroker]

Moving the brass further than reqired is the definition of overworking it. Brass life is extended by only moving it the absolute smallest amount to accomplish the goal of holding the bullet and chambering in the pistol. Movement beyond that is overworking and will cause premature failure.

I don't want to take sides either way with the "customer service" issue but, a tiny tad of oversizing won't work harden the brass any measurable amount, at least not according to some testing I've done. Admittedly, my testing was with rifle bottle neck cases but, for me to notice any difference in bullet seating force after annealing, I had to use between 15 & 20 cycles of expander mandrel at +0.001 over bullet OD then size back down with a FLS die to -0.003. A die sizing an extra 0.0005 to 0.001 isn't going to shit can your brass in a single pass, it's the firing that has the major impact.
Regards.................Barelstroker.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Buy this

 

[918v]

Moving the brass further than reqired is the definition of overworking it. Brass life is extended by only moving it the absolute smallest amount to accomplish the goal of holding the bullet and chambering in the pistol. Movement beyond that is overworking and will cause premature failure.

you don’t know how much brass is worked in the first place. 9mm dies size the case neck ID maybe .003” under bullet diameter. Factory new brass is .001” under, that’s why you don’t see a bulge after seating.

Standard rifle dies size the necks .010” under and then open it back up with the expander ball. That’s overworking.

 

[Barelstroker]

you don’t know how much brass is worked in the first place. 9mm dies size the case neck ID maybe .003” under bullet diameter. Factory new brass is .001” under, that’s why you don’t see a bulge after seating.

Standard rifle dies size the necks .010” under and then open it back up with the expander ball. That’s overworking.

Well, whatever it is, it doesn't make a lick difference to seating force until between 15 & 20 cycles, near as I can tell.
At 20 cycles, I was sure it was harder, at 15, it appeared to be but, my point is, I don't believe sizing the brass is the major factor when it comes to work hardening the neck.
Regards...........Barelstroker

 

[918v]

I once reloaded a FC 9mm case 32 times at the range before it split, just to see.

 

[Vamike9]

I once reloaded a FC 9mm case 32 times at the range before it split, just to see.

I definitely have more experience reloading precision rifle anmo than handgun, but what do you all think causes this to happen to some cases/bullets and not others?



I'm open to leaning anything?

Personally I believe it is sizing the case too small as that's what makes the most sense...

However, is there a way to correct this without shooting them and resizing again with another die?

 

[918v]

If you mean the slight bulge, then it’s something you simply cannot avoid. The shape of the carbide sizer is such that it sizes the ID smaller than what factory case is. Sizer dies have to be able to size all cases to adequately hold a bullet. There are many cases with different wall thickness out there. A thick case will end up with a smaller ID than a thin case.

 

[Vamike9]

If you mean the slight bulge, then it’s something you simply cannot avoid. The shape of the carbide sizer is such that it sizes the ID smaller than what factory case is. Sizer dies have to be able to size all cases to adequately hold a bullet. There are many cases with different wall thickness out there. A thick case will end up with a smaller ID than a thin case.

So how does the factory get it done without the bulge?
Not meaning this in a bad way but this is the first handgun round I've encountered with this...

 

[918v]

Factory has the luxury of making the cases the way they want. They make their own dies to their own specifications. Their dies are profiled to size the brass to a certain ID and the rounds look pretty.

Whereas our dies assume the worst case scenario and size accordingly.

 

[Barelstroker]

So how does the factory get it done without the bulge?
Not meaning this in a bad way but this is the first handgun round I've encountered with this...

Not trying belittle your concerns but, I've loaded thousands of 9mm rounds with a Lee carbide die & the bulge is noticeable in all my reloads. It's never adversely affected the firing or operation of the loads so, I don't worry about it.
I put more emphasis into ensuring I have the minimum crimp required because this effects the case mouth &, that's where the 9mm headspaces off. I've lost count of the number of times newbs have complained about functioning at the range. The 1st thing I do is look to see if they're using reloads then, I pull the gun down, take a loaded round & push it in the chamber with my thumb. Most times, I can jam the cartridge into the throat because they've over crimped. From what I've ever seen, this is a far more important issue than the bullet making the case bulge a little.
Regards................Barelstroker.

 

[918v]

Look at a new case and compare it to your sized case. You’ll notice the factory neck is a lot shorter than your sized neck.

I know it bothers you but consider that you will not have any bullet setback whereas you might with factory ammo.

 

[Vamike9]

Look at a new case and compare it to your sized case. You’ll notice the factory neck is a lot shorter than your sized neck.

I know it bothers you but consider that you will not have any bullet setback whereas you might with factory ammo.

I do understand what you all are saying, and have not loaded thousands of rounds in 9mm, however, none of my 38, 357mag, 45acp or 44mags have ever had this issue?...
I'm not a novice, just not as experienced in handgun calibers as some of you are.

 

[Barelstroker]

I do understand what you all are saying, and have not loaded thousands of rounds in 9mm, however, none of my 38, 357mag, 45acp or 44mags have ever had this issue?...
I'm not a novice, just not as experienced in handgun calibers as some of you are.

I applaud your attempting to find the truth of the situation. Much better to be sure than assume.
In this case though, I really don't believe it to be an issue other than cosmetics however, I'm assuming that the bulge you see is similar to what I see in my reloads. It might be best to post a photo just in case we're all under estimating this issue.
Regards.............Barelstroker

 

[Vamike9]

I applaud your attempting to find the truth of the situation. Much better to be sure than assume.
In this case though, I really don't believe it to be an issue other than cosmetics however, I'm assuming that the bulge you see is similar to what I see in my reloads. It might be best to post a photo just in case we're all under estimating this issue.
Regards.............Barelstroker

As best as the camera allows.

 

[Barelstroker]

As best as the camera allows.

View attachment 7494775

View attachment 7494776

Ahhhh, now that's different.
Although it may not effect firing & functionality, that's not normal by any stretch (pardon the pun).
It certainly won't be doing any good to your equipment or bullets either.
I'd send that die back, it's definitely not within spec.

 

[Vamike9]

Ahhhh, now that's different.
Although it may not effect firing & functionality, that's not normal by any stretch (pardon the pun).
It certainly won't be doing any good to your equipment or bullets either.
I'd send that die back, it's definitely not within spec.

Yeah, been a long at work, couldn't post pics then.
Thanks for the help

 

[Barelstroker]

Vamike9
The bulge I see I have to hold the case up to the light & I can easily detect a bulge but, nothing close to that.
Matter of fact, I've never seen anything like that.
You must be seating the hell out of those loads? You poor bastard. Sorry to put you through all that although, you should've posted a pic in the 1st place.
Regards...........Barelstroker

 

[918v]

As best as the camera allows.

View attachment 7494775

View attachment 7494776

normal

 

[918v]

I do understand what you all are saying, and have not loaded thousands of rounds in 9mm, however, none of my 38, 357mag, 45acp or 44mags have ever had this issue?...
I'm not a novice, just not as experienced in handgun calibers as some of you are.

I see similar “issues” in all of my handgun rounds. I use Redding dies.

 

[Barelstroker]

normal

Normal, on what planet?
I've reloaded 4 different brands of brass & 1/2 dozen different projectiles & I've never encountered bulging like that.
None of my friends 9mm reloads look like that.
At very least, after sizing down that hard, you'd be close to splitting the case mouth when flaring.
There's nothing normal about it that I've ever seen.
Anyhow, can't say as I've seen everything to do with it but, I wouldn't be treating it normally.

 

[Barelstroker]

I see similar “issues” in all of my handgun rounds. I use Redding dies.

I reload for 357 as well, nothing like that.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Look up "coke bottle" over on the Brian Enos forums. Those guys shoot a lot of 9mm and it has been discussed in more depth than you'll get here.

 

[Barelstroker]

I see similar “issues” in all of my handgun rounds. I use Redding dies.

Well, I suppose as long as there's no adverse functioning or case life issues, you could say that a bulge like that is "normal" from the perspective that it does no harm however, it's not something that I'd be comfortable with accepting off hand with no reservations, particularly when it's definitely not something that you have to concede to.
Regards.............Barelstroker

 

[918v]

First of all, you can’t get dimensions in increments of .001” from a picture.

Here is mine with .003” neck tension:

 

[918v]

That’s right. The case ID is sized .003” under bullet OD. And this amount of excessive sizing still allows the case to last for 32 reloads.

 

[Barelstroker]

That’s right. The case ID is sized .003” under bullet OD. And this amount of excessive sizing still allows the case to last for 32 reloads.

Fair enough but, surely that's not at all as pronounced as Vamike9's cases.
As I stated, I'm not suggesting that it's harmful in any way because I don't know &, that case you show doesn't seem too bad to me but, the way Vamikes were I find unacceptable from the perspective that, it surely isn't optimal or desirable.
Regards..............Barelstroker