What not to do.

camocorvette · Mar 19, 2022

So today I shit alittle bit..

(I've edited this after realizing my mistakes)

Was doing some load development. I have a bunch of CFE223 that I actually don't use for 223; but it was too cheap to pass up. So I'm using it for 308.

I looked around, found others recipes, found Hodgdon's data. I went off Hodgdon's data. Starting load is 45.5, max is 47.5

*this is where i fuck up*

Using FGMM brass*, wolf primers. Cases are full length sized with a .002 bump on shoulders. Hornady 178 BTHP COAL 2.86.

Started at 45.4 and did 5 rounds in .3 grain increments up to 46.9

The gun is a factory Remington 700P with a thousand or so rounds. At 46.6 on the 4th round I had powder or debris blow out the back of the bolt. Thankfully I wear glasses and just had my face peppered with what felt like dust.

Could not lift the bolt. So wacked it with a mallet. Could not pull the bolt back, so wacked it with a mallet. The case was stuck to the bolt.

Could not get the case off the bolt until I tapped it a bunch on the table.

The primer went flying the moment I got the case unstuck from the bolt.

The flash hole seems to be twice the size of normal.

All the rounds prior had no sticky or even a little difficulty lifting the bolt.

The top two rounds in the next picture were 45.4 the two below were 46.6
I always get cratered primers on most non military primers. So I don't really use that as a sign of pressure. And the primers still have a radius.

So what happened?

spife7980 · Mar 19, 2022

So it looks like you’re using the Hodgdon data for 175s, I see they are using Winchester cases which I believe to be thinner than your fat ass federal cases. So that would be an increase in pressure combined with federal being softer makes sense that you blew a primer pocket. Hard to tell from the pic and angle but it looks like you’ve got swipe signs you missed on your “fine” example cases?

Steel head · Mar 19, 2022

Ohhhhh
Sporty pressures!

My guess
Combination of soft federal brass that if I remember has a fairly low case capacity with 175 data and I think the 178 BTHP has a good bit more bearing surface and poof!

camocorvette · Mar 19, 2022

Thank you guys. After sitting back thinking and after your responses.
I'm retarded. I don't know why I didn't back it off and start even lower with the reduced case capacity. I was unaware of the softness though.
Reduced capacity I was aware of. I'm fucking retarded apparently. And glossed right over that in a hurry today. Thankfully it wasn't worse.

camocorvette · Mar 19, 2022

Average guy · Mar 19, 2022

I think we have all had a brain fart experience. Luckily mine were all easily repaired and diagnosed. Glad it didn’t blow up. Two weeks ago I found the remains of a blown up walnut stock and front rest bag at the range. Definitely causes you to pause and think.

black5.3 · Mar 19, 2022

It could have been a lot worse. Mistakes happen and some mistakes cost more than others. This is most true when it comes to mistakes made in reloading. Glad you’re ok, take it as a reminder to not get complacent on the small details.

camocorvette · Mar 19, 2022

Yeah at the very least a fart.

Looking back I got complacent and stupid. I've been loading hundreds and shooting hundreds of LC cases that weigh roughly the same as this FC brass.
I've been loading the LC brass with IMR 2000. CFE is right next to it on the burn chart. I guess my thought was if I'm way below my IMR charge it's probably okay.

That was stupid of me. I also did fuck up the rifle. The extractor is broken and will not extract a case from the rifle now.

Average guy · Mar 19, 2022

Good excuse to get an m16 style installed

918v · Mar 19, 2022

CFE223 is a lot faster burning than MR2000.

Winchester commercial brass can take 2 grains more powder than LC/FC/Lapua because it is thin and has more internal capacity.

Weigh your brass. This is important. Also, be aware that some Win commercial brass is heavier than other Win commercial brass. The brass stamped “Winchester” should weigh from 152-160 grains depending on lot. But I have picked up some at the range that go all the way up to 180grs. Then there is “Win 308 Win” brass. It weighs around 165 grains.

In any case, don’t take things for granted and always check.

spife7980 · Mar 19, 2022

camocorvette said:
That was stupid of me. I also did fuck up the rifle. The extractor is broken and will not extract a case from the rifle now.

I’d make sure you don’t have brass binding it jamming in the little recess for the extractor to bend into.
Being a 308 it should be a real simple swap. If it were the riveted/mag extractor it’s tough and I’d ship it out for the m16 conversion like mentioned above. Not a bad upgrade either way, but the factory spring is cheap and easy.

FLIGHT762 · Mar 19, 2022

I've used 46.5 grs. of CFE 223 with a Federal GMM case, 175 Nosler CC and 210 primer. I had no issues with it in two of my 700 bolt guns. One gun likes the load, the other didn't, just poor groups, no pressure.

I've shot a lot of 2000 MR @ 46.5 grs. With a 175 Nosler CC & Federal GMM cases. Both powders are close to one another. This load shoots well out to 1000. Both rifles like this load. When I use my older, thin Winchester cases, I use 47.5 of 2000 MR to get the same velocity.

Maybe you got a grain or two more powder in that one case.

BuildingConceptsllc · Mar 19, 2022

Glad you are ok. I'm just about to load up some federal brass and that's a switch from lapua I normally load. Not sure about the chamber free bore on this new barrel but I am sure that I will start out low and work up. My face ain't as Purdy as it once was.... but I'd like to keep it just the same.

2aBaC̶a̶ · Mar 19, 2022

Is that the only one with a large flash hole? Is that normal?

camocorvette · Mar 19, 2022

spife7980 said:
I’d make sure you don’t have brass binding it jamming in the little recess for the extractor to bend into.
Being a 308 it should be a real simple swap. If it were the riveted/mag extractor it’s tough and I’d ship it out for the m16 conversion like mentioned above. Not a bad upgrade either way, but the factory spring is cheap and easy.

I will check. Thanks

camocorvette · Mar 19, 2022

I think that is because it was expanding as far as it could in the chamber from a over max charge.

2aBaCa said:
Is that the only one with a large flash hole? Is that normal?

camocorvette · Mar 19, 2022

FLIGHT762 said:
Maybe you got a grain or two more powder in that one case.

While that could be possible. I don't think so. Those charges were weighed on a RCBS 505 beam scale. And that I'm pretty anal about making sure everything is squared away.

I think it was just a way over charged case. Then the fact that FC brass is apparently softer. That case just said no to a high pressure round.

camocorvette · Mar 19, 2022

918v said:
In any case, don’t take things for granted and always check.

This is what bit me in the ass.
Thanks for the info too.

Tchitcherine · Mar 20, 2022

As much as it sucks, thanks for sharing your fuck up, as a caution & reminder to the rest of us.
Glad you're ok!

2aBaC̶a̶ · Mar 20, 2022

camocorvette said:
I think that is because it was expanding as far as it could in the chamber from a over max charge.

So firing the round enlarged the flash hole? That doesn't sound right.
What do you suppose would happen if you fire any otherwise normal round with a flash hole that large?

M4orturnate · Mar 20, 2022

Out of 10 or so brands ive checked federal has the least capacity. Less then lc if i remember right. Ball powders ignite kinda weird so a spike with just a few tenths could happen. Magnum primers can make it more linear if you notice big velocity jumps from one charge to the next

918v · Mar 20, 2022

918v · Mar 20, 2022

2aBaCa said:
Is that the only one with a large flash hole? Is that normal?

The flash hole was normal. Then it got bigger and bigger and bigger as the pressure exceeded max for that brass.

2aBaC̶a̶ · Mar 20, 2022

918v said:
The flash hole was normal. Then it got bigger and bigger and bigger as the pressure exceeded max for that brass.

Is that normal for the flash hole to expand that much on a severely over pressure case? That's wild.

What do you think would happen if you actually had a flash hole that large on a normal case? Wouldn't that exert an exponentially larger amount of pressure shooting backwards similar to what it takes to push the bullet out?

918v · Mar 20, 2022

Yes I have seen cases like that. Some people treat gun powder like gasoline. They fill up till it’s full.

I have never seen a flash hole that big in a rifle case from the factory. Those are usually punched and are pretty consistent. And such a case would normally be identified during case prep and not used. I don’t think it would affect things tho. Large flash holes have been used in Win Clean pistol ammo back in the day because the lead free primers were underpowered.

Dead Eye Dick · Mar 20, 2022

Stuff happens. One afternoon, I was loading a batch of .223 rounds for my very expensive Kimber Predator (expensive for me at the time). Since I shoot it creedmoor, a blown gun would have taken off my right leg and probably a good bit of my right hand. As always, I kind get worried in the middle of a reloading session and just to be sure, I check my load, the powder, the primer and the bullet.

I had loaded about 20, .223 cases with 25 grains of WW296. So, seeing the error, I pulled all the bullets and replaced the 296 with the WW748 they were supposed to have. As nice as the Kimber was, it had no where near the strength of an XP-100 and I never want to find out what a maximum charge of magnum pistol powder would do in a rifle case.

So, now I triple check before I start loading, make it a point to label everything (so writing down will again reinforce the correct data in my head) and again check as I go along. Blown guns are no fun.

camocorvette · Mar 20, 2022

Yeah extractor is toast. I fucked up. I won't do that again. Thanks for all the replies and not dragging my nuts through the coals.

mtang45 · Mar 20, 2022

I'm not completely buying the case capacity theory. You were shooting 5 rounds per load, all FGMM brass, at .3gr increments 45.5 to 46.9 of CFE223, and on the 4th round of 46.6 suddenly this happened? Because going from a minor ejector swipe to the results of round 4 is a major, major change. I suspect something completely different than brass capacity with a slight powder overload (unless you DID significantly overload that one case). I would pull round 5 and weigh the powder charge. It just doesn't make sense that shot 1, 2, & 3 @46.6 were fine (very minor pressure sign) and shot 4 did that without something being way different for round 4.

ETA: Pull all your remaining loads and weigh the powder charge. Also, any chance you may have accidently put a different 30 cal bullet in round 4? Like maybe a 208gr Hornady BTHP?

straightshooter1 · Mar 20, 2022

mtang45 said:
I'm not completely buying the case capacity theory. You were shooting 5 rounds per load, all FGMM brass, at .3gr increments 45.5 to 46.9 of CFE223, and on the 4th round of 46.6 suddenly this happened? Because going from a minor ejector swipe to the results of round 4 is a major, major change. I suspect something completely different than brass capacity with a slight powder overload (unless you DID significantly overload that one case). I would pull round 5 and weigh the powder charge. It just doesn't make sense that shot 1, 2, & 3 @46.6 were fine (very minor pressure sign) and shot 4 did that without something being way different for round 4.

ETA: Pull all your remaining loads and weigh the powder charge.

Another cause, having to do with case capacity, would be if there was some cleaning media left in the case that he wasn't aware of . . .???

OkieMike · Mar 21, 2022

camocorvette said:
Yeah extractor is toast. I fucked up. I won't do that again. Thanks for all the replies and not dragging my nuts through the coals.

What do you want? Me or anyone else here could scream at you and call you 9 kinds of dumbass... But chances are you already feel like one so there's no need to rehash it.

You got off pretty "easy." Your rifle is out of commission for a bit and it'll cost you a few bucks to get it running again... And you ruined some components that are nigh impossible to replace right now. Could've been worse but it wasn't... And the consequences are enough of a PITA to be remembered.

I bet from now on you'll resemble a damn jeweler when you inspect brass for pressure signs... I know I probably do. Had a similar thing happen to me. I got off easier than you did but it was still enough to drive the lesson home.

The thing about "live and learn" is that you have to survive to apply the lesson. You aced the hard part and lived through the ordeal. Now apply what you learned from it.

Mike

camocorvette · Mar 21, 2022

mtang45 said:
Any chance you may have accidently put a different 30 cal bullet in round 4? Like maybe a 208gr Hornady BTHP?

The only other projectiles on the table are 175 SMK. Doubtfully that. I had a bunch of cases with case lube in the necks because i didn't tumble after sizing and before trimming. I wiped them with a q-tip pretty good I feel.

I have not pulled the rounds yet. Gonna do that after work some time this week. I ordered a ptg replacement extractor.

About the 15th round I wasn't paying attention and dumped 2 charges into one case. I dumped that cartridge, checked the others and moved on.
That may be a contributing part.. idk.

Either way. I will be paying more attention.

camocorvette · Mar 21, 2022

straightshooter1 said:
Another cause, having to do with case capacity, would be if there was some cleaning media left in the case that he wasn't aware of . . .???

I'm dry tumbling with hornady pre mix media. I haven't added wax in a minute. There's normally nothing in the cases as I check periodically.

There was some case lube in the necks I wiped with a q-tip.

camocorvette · Mar 21, 2022

OkieMike said:
The thing about "live and learn" is that you have to survive. Now apply what you learned from it.

Mike

Thank you, I will.

Could have been worse. That's for sure.
My rush to get it done, costed me more time in the long run.

OkieMike · Mar 21, 2022

camocorvette said:
My rush to get it done, costed me more time in the long run.

You don't have to tell me... I'm the most impatient person I know. But I'm learning. Lol.

Mike

FLIGHT762 · Mar 21, 2022

camocorvette said:
I had a bunch of cases with case lube in the necks because i didn't tumble after sizing and before trimming. I wiped them with a q-tip pretty good I feel.

About the 15th round I wasn't paying attention and dumped 2 charges into one case. I dumped that cartridge, checked the others and moved on.
That may be a contributing part.. idk.

Either way. I will be paying more attention.

I know that any case lube left in the case neck will attract powder and the powder will stick (especially ball powder). I've had it happen when pouring out the powder and there is powder stuck to the inside if lube was left inside. If you over filled a case and then dumped it, could you have re charged it without looking first, not seeing powder stuck to the sides of the case neck?

Like I said earlier, I tested CFE 223 @ 46.5 grs. in those heavy, 184 grn. Federal GMM cases with a 175 Nosler CC. I had no pressure issues. 46.5 grs. is near the top end with that powder bullet combination. I have a couple thousand of the GMM brass that was once fired in bolt guns. I use a lot of that brass.

The newer GMM brass that has a silver primer and blue primer sealant are not as soft as the older GMM cases. Those older cases from the 80's-90's are softer and primer pockets will go quickly with upper loads.

camocorvette · Mar 21, 2022

FLIGHT762 said:
I've had it happen when pouring out the powder and there is powder stuck to the inside if lube was left inside. If you over filled a case and then dumped it, could you have re charged it without looking first, not seeing powder stuck to the sides of the case neck?

I suppose that could have happened. I normally tumble real quick after sizing. I was in a rush, so I did not and just wiped the cases down. Then ran a brush through the cases. After trimming I noticed some lube still in the necks so I ran a q-tip through them.

Krob95 · Mar 21, 2022

If it makes you feel better. I loaded up 120 rounds of 22GT. Set my seating die up to what I thought was was the proper setting and seated all my bullets. I then ran a few (not firing them) to make sure everything was good at home as I was shooting the next morning. Had a strange ring around the ogive. Come to find out I was jamming them around 30thou into the lands. I measured the rest of the bullets. Remeasured distance to the lands and seated them an extra 60thou to get me to the proper seating depth.

If I would've went and shot those I would've had a really bad time. Glad you didn't get hurt man.

2aBaC̶a̶ · Mar 21, 2022

wonder how much CFE it would take to actually do that?

how full is a case at 46.6gr?

camocorvette · Mar 21, 2022

2aBaCa said:
wonder how much CFE it would take to actually do that?

how full is a case at 46.6gr?

It was maybe halfway to 3/4 up the shoulder if I remember at that charge weight.

Either way I fucked up.

camocorvette · Mar 21, 2022

Krob95 said:
If I would've went and shot those I would've had a really bad time. Glad you didn't get hurt man.

Thanks. Got lucky for sure.

Hunt · Mar 21, 2022

Good thing you had no injuries. On that note, when I'm working with a new brass/bullet combo, I will run it through Gordon's Reloading Tool (GRT) provided I have a fired case from that chamber. This'll give me a rough estimate of what to expect pressure-wise. Download GRT...It's free for now and may help with a more of an idea of what to expect.

camocorvette · Mar 21, 2022

Hunt said:
Good thing you had no injuries. On that note, when I'm working with a new brass/bullet combo, I will run it through Gordon's Reloading Tool (GRT) provided I have a fired case from that chamber. This'll give me a rough estimate of what to expect pressure-wise. Download GRT...It's free for now and may help with a more of an idea of what to expect.

I will check it out. Thank you.

TheGerman · Mar 21, 2022

Average guy · Mar 21, 2022

TheGerman said:
View attachment 7832582

Seems legit

camocorvette · Mar 21, 2022

He's not wrong...

greentick · Mar 21, 2022

Just finished pulling down 4-500 308rds that were loaded into bad brass. (long story)

About a year ago I blew up my father in law. Rem700 (fairly stock). Case failed at the base, peppered him with powder and destroyed the extractor. Ironically, though he is a big safety nut, his glasses were propped on his hat, no serious damage to his face/eyes. Thankfully he still likes me, I replaced the extractor and the rifle shoots like a charm (I did the test firing).

I recovered the Varget, primers and assorted projos. Currently loading some 30-06 blasting ammo for some CMP rifles.

Very glad you're (physically) ok!

Baron23 · Mar 21, 2022

greentick said:
About a year ago I blew up my father in law

Now that's taking resentment toward you in-laws to new heights! haha

More seriously, I'm glad he also wasn't hurt. Its not joke and that's one of the reasons I wear fairly expensive, real, shooting glasses (Randolph Engineering).

Safety and I just spent x amount of $$ on a scope for its "high end glass" and have never understood why people then want to put on a shitty pair of workman safety glasses to look thru.

Cheers

camocorvette · Mar 21, 2022

greentick said:
Just finished pulling down 4-500 308rds that were loaded into bad brass. (long story)

I've got about 350, 308 rounds to pull. I'm not looking forward to that. I've been putting that off for like 2 years. Neck sized for a different gun with looser chamber(don't have the gun any more).

Glad your FIL is well and doesn't hate you haha. Thank you! I hope I don't develop a flinch. I know I'll think about it next time.

greentick · Mar 21, 2022

camocorvette said:
I've got about 350, 308 rounds to pull. I'm not looking forward to that.

I have a cheap Lee single stage I use for miscellaneous operations and using the rcbs collet puller is one of those. Got in a pretty good grove. Up, grip, pull, pour out powder and drop brass in bucket, get bullet from collet. Repeat.

I deprimed on the 550 for ease of collecting primers and being able to keep a chunk of metal between my face and the depriming operation (sorry hands, you'reon your own!).

It went faster than I thought.

camocorvette · Mar 21, 2022

greentick said:
I have a cheap Lee single stage I use for miscellaneous operations and using the rcbs collet puller is one of those. Got in a pretty good grove. Up, grip, pull, pour out powder and drop brass in bucket, get bullet from collet. Repeat.

I deprimed on the 550 for ease of collecting primers and being able to keep a chunk of metal between my face and the depriming operation (sorry hands, you'reon your own!).

It went faster than I thought.

I need to get a collet puller. I don't know why I don't have one yet. I've been holding off as I'm not kinetically pulling all those hahaha.

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