Red Dot on CCW Pistol. Do you guys use them?
- Thread starter BiggBeans
- Start date
In before the CCP fangirlz cream all over their CCP optics.
PMO/pistol mounted optics are fun and can be helpful when people train properly with them. Clean pistol presentation technique is important to effective use of PMOs- one of the best ways to accomplish that is to tape over the F & R steel sights, or remove them entirely.
PMO/pistol mounted optics are fun and can be helpful when people train properly with them. Clean pistol presentation technique is important to effective use of PMOs- one of the best ways to accomplish that is to tape over the F & R steel sights, or remove them entirely.
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first issue is finding an always-on or shake/awake optic. next is doing the training/muscle memory needed to pick up the dot as it generally sits a little higher than the iron sights you're used to. i'm sticking with my g43x with iron nite sights for the time being because of these two issues.
Holosun and it doesn't take long to get used to picking the dot up
I like the tech, got some on rifles and range toys, but for me it doesn’t work for the daily CCW mission, I’m not 300lbs and 8’ tall, my subcompact sig works great, for my day to day work even a G19 sized, or being me a commander sized gun ain’t going to work for a full day of wear unless I’m going to plan everything around carrying it, and that ain’t going to work. A red dot on my subcompact would even lower it’s performance as it would change the method I use to carry, the gun needs to suit the mission, I don’t suit the mission around the gun.
XS big dot for my CCW
XS big dot for my CCW
Trijicon's RMR battery life is measured in years. I went three years on my first RMR's OEM battery before I changed it, and I changed it only because I was getting nervous not because it needed it. Since I always leave mine set to auto-brightness mode, it lowers power consumption every time it's in a darkened space like in my nightstand drawer, under my shirt, or in the car's center console. The brightness adjusts automatically and very quickly.
Buy an RMR, change the battery annually, and you never have to worry about it.
Fuck Holosun and anything made in China for which there is an equal or better not-made-in-China product.
You should be able to draw your pistol with your eyes closed and find the sights in near perfect alignment at the end of the draw. If you can do what you should be able to do, transitioning to an RDS is very easy and quick. If you can't, you will have to put in the work.
That's because your draw sucks.
Yes. On all of them.
They are superior, primarily because the correct way to use one is to focus on the target which is where our eyes naturally go when facing a threat.
If you are willing to put the work into refining your presentation and can realize or even need the performance enhancement; then yes, MRDS equipped pistols can provide advantages. Shooters with advancing age who have vision problems and maintaining threat focus, as 308 mentioned, are two big advantages. Increases effective range is another. Whether or not the cost / benefit / return on investment will be worth it to you only you can figure.
Of course, good work has been done with (and without) iron sights since they began using them. And if you mainly plan to use your G-Lock in staple gun mode, no sights are needed at all!
As to finding the dot, that can easily be solved by some correct instruction in proper technique. And if you can find the dot, using the irons is so much better and easier.
Of course, good work has been done with (and without) iron sights since they began using them. And if you mainly plan to use your G-Lock in staple gun mode, no sights are needed at all!
As to finding the dot, that can easily be solved by some correct instruction in proper technique. And if you can find the dot, using the irons is so much better and easier.
Scott Jedlinski of the Modern Samurai Project is one of the recognized experts on the subject. He has lots of good info out there:
Thanks for all the good info guys. Im new to pistols. Have never shot them much. Went and took the concealed carry course yesterday. And being fairly new to handguns im not the best shot with the iron sites. But when i use my pistols with red dots on them i feel like im alot better shooter. I get more hits on steel targets and my groups tighten up. I feel like im doing this backwords. I feel like i should get proficient shooting iron sights first.
You should get proficient on multiple levels with a CC gun. Practice iron and not, drawing/holstering, reloads etc.
I like the idea of the red dot. Likely will try one out. But keep in mind it’s always good to know the basics. Red dots are electronics. Electronics can easily fail you
I switched over to red dots on pistols and I will never go back.
Keep in mind that it did take some training and about 500 to 1,000 rounds to get used to it, but man, once I got the hang of it it's by far a superior way to carry in my view.
Just think about this... you carry just in case something crazy happens. Now if something crazy DID actually happen, would you close an eye during all that or would you rather keep both eyes open? With the red dot, just by virtue of what it is and how it works you shoot with both eyes open with the same or faster shot placement.
always keep both eyes open- irons or dots....
Have a 507 on my P07 and definitely prefer shooting with it, but I'm still only about 80% consistent on seeing the dot on presentation, without having to make adjustments to find it- old habits....
Carrying it is fine- I'm used to toting either a 1911 or BHP IWB
Have a 507 on my P07 and definitely prefer shooting with it, but I'm still only about 80% consistent on seeing the dot on presentation, without having to make adjustments to find it- old habits....
Carrying it is fine- I'm used to toting either a 1911 or BHP IWB
It's not a requirement, but I get the concept of shifting from "front sight focus" to focusing on the threat superimposing the dot. Essentially with a red dot on a pistol (atleast the way it is supposed to be) your target is your front sight, your red dot super imposed is your back sight.
Threat focusing is important in real situations and your going to naturally do it, this is why people always say if something really happens "you won't look at your sights". The red dot(like on a rifle) is meant to be more natural to the way we mechanically operate. The problem is "finding the dot" for most people or real world not flat range scenarios; I think the Primary arms ACSS Vulcan reticle solves the issue to date the best I have seen, it's only in Holosun optics though (unfortunately primary arms took it to other optics companies and they didn't want it, a real shame if true). So the advantages are there, but will irons still work? Of course.
Threat focusing is important in real situations and your going to naturally do it, this is why people always say if something really happens "you won't look at your sights". The red dot(like on a rifle) is meant to be more natural to the way we mechanically operate. The problem is "finding the dot" for most people or real world not flat range scenarios; I think the Primary arms ACSS Vulcan reticle solves the issue to date the best I have seen, it's only in Holosun optics though (unfortunately primary arms took it to other optics companies and they didn't want it, a real shame if true). So the advantages are there, but will irons still work? Of course.
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Fuck iron sights. They force your eyes to work in an unnatural way.
Optics are the future and the future is now.
I carry a G19 MOS + RMR combo when I’m not carrying my 43X. I like it a lot because it doesn’t affect conceal ability or comfortability and should I ever need to engage a threat it allows me to be target focused keeping my eyes on the threat. As soon as I figure out my options for the 43X I’ll add an RMRc to that also.
The problem is that 99% of pistol owners out there never put in the work needed to make the pistol present correctly no matter what and then make excuses.
It's a crutch for people who won't put in the work.
That is how it should be.
Personally I haven't been able to focus on a pistol's front sight since about 10 years ago. I have to shoot target focused with irons and even then I'm still much faster and more accurate with a red dot.
One thing that no one has mentioned (likely because they aren't even aware this is a thing) is that a red dot gives you an immense amount of very discreet feedback about your grip, trigger press, and shot calling in a way that iron sights will never be able to.
I realize you're a noob but the sooner you jump on the red dot train and the sooner you learn how to use one to train yourself the faster you will improve.
I strongly suggest training with Scott Jedlinksi on this. It seems like a ton of money for his tuition and the necessary ammo but it's peanuts compared to the money and time you'll waste trying to figure this out with no pistol shooting experience.
I agree with your premise, however; I think in real tactical situations where your upside down or on your side or very awkward angles where seconds count not only will it be helpful but "crutches" are irrelevant if it helps you win.
Having a good presentation and an aiming assistant method seem like the best of both worlds, I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive or the ACSS has to be a crutch. But, truthfully I have never been in a real world tactical situation so what do I know lol.
I completely agree that red dots are the future.
You do realize that you can train yourself at home to find the dot while you're in the most extreme contortions that you can put yourself in..............right?
Dry fire isn't just standing upright playing clickity-click with the slide and trigger.
Yes, I do understand that. But one thing that cannot be replicated is adrenaline and the speed of these things when your life is on the line. Training absolutely helps and you'll always revert back to your level of training, I agree with what your saying, but if your gonna ask me if I could also have a reticle that could assist me while I'm training/trained as well, my response is why not? The drawback is the amount of battery life that reticle drains.
But anyways, just my thoughts. There are no crutches when your fighting for your life; the crutch is if you think your reticle assist is a reason not to train, the ACSS is NOT a license to not train and that wasn't what I was trying to say. But it does take time with the dot to transition from irons and if your gonna be CCWing it and don't want to wait until your "fully trained" I think it would help someone bridge that gap. But just my opinion.
Several gross conceptual erros going on here.
Focusing on the target is absolutely a requirement to use a reflex sight effectively. I've seen what happens when one doesn't by watching fudds try to shoot one as if the dot was a front sight.
The dot is also ABSOLUTELY NOT treated as if it was a rear sight. There is no rear sight equivalent with a reflex sight, and the dot most certainly does not need to be centered on the window. You focus on the target with both eyes and while looking past the dot and keeping the gun in front of your face at eye level. Your brain takes care of the rest.
No. Red dot, for me, would be a split second distraction. Pistol is used to fight my way to my rifle. JMHO
Ok man.
That's actually a direct quote from Scott Jedlinski about the front sight rear sight concept of the dots to irons that made a ton of sense to me. But, anyways have a good one.
Small sample group but local IDPA matches have red dots sitting on top shooters’ pistols.
The dot enhances everything. Speed, accuracy, accountability. If you're a good shooter already the transition doesn't take any time, you just do less work with your eyes and get more feedback while you shoot. The tighter the shot, the faster you go, the more the dot helps.
If your fundamentals suck the dot won't help you immediately. Might even make it harder until you build some basic skills. The nice thing is it tells you exactly what you're doing wrong, and how wrong.
If your fundamentals suck the dot won't help you immediately. Might even make it harder until you build some basic skills. The nice thing is it tells you exactly what you're doing wrong, and how wrong.
@308pirate's description of how to shoot a red dot mounted pistol is directly in line with how my son is being taught to shoot a shotgun. Hard focus on the target and your body does the rest. You don't have to concentrate to point your finger at something, nor do you have to sight down your finger to get it in line. You focus on the target and your body figures everything else out. Practice and repitition. In my dry firing, I found an immediate improvement in dot acquisition when I stopped trying to focus on the dot. This is also the stated reason why Aimpoint does not have a circle-dot reticle. They want you to focus on the target and have the dot "appear in the sight picture."
Ironically, or maybe not, I have found that after a lot of dry fire with a dot equipped pistol, my acquisition of pistol iron sights has improved dramatically.
Ironically, or maybe not, I have found that after a lot of dry fire with a dot equipped pistol, my acquisition of pistol iron sights has improved dramatically.
A pistol without a red dot is like Chili without beans — it ain’t chili!
Yeah, a RDS will point out any flaws with your draw and presentation. I'm always faster with my irons after training with my RDS.
People act like presentation somehow just becomes an issue you need to work on when you put a dot on. I got news for you... If you present with a dot and it’s not there then your presentation sucked with irons too, you just didn’t know it.
Red dots are the way to go on pistols.
Red dots are the way to go on pistols.
Just an observation and another pro in the RDS box is that, because of the consistency required in the draw stroke and presentation to acquire the dot, and abundance of feedback in grip, micro movements, etc, as described before, your index, grip, and trigger manipulation becomes much more refined. This helps you shoot irons better when transitioning back from a dot. I.e, being a good dot shooter helps you shoot irons better; the converse isn’t true.
I think you both are missing a part of what the other is saying. He’s actually correct; with irons there are three focal points to line up (target, front sight, rear sight) because each is at a different distance from the others. The benefit of the dot is that it changes to a single focal point; the target. His point was that you only focus on the target. Then move the dot till it lines up. This is 100% what Jedi says. His comparison with the sights is a common analogy to help people get the above concept. They still aren’t quite the same thing. The correct way to think of a dot is like the crosshairs of a scope, everything is on the same plane.
Don't use them, as I have good vision.
If your vision isn't good, use any means necessary to give you the confidence to make an accurate shot.
Any top slide addition to a CCW will make it harder to conceal, especially in warmer climates, with less clothes being worn to conceal it.
Murphy's law, and I don't care what anyone says about battery life and ruggedness.
It's electronic, built + assembled by a human and will eventually fail.
To make a really informed decision, buy two pistols, one with an RDS and one iron sight.
See what you like best and go from there.
More guns is gooder.
I tend to think red dots should be better. But use one or the other not both. Eventually I’ll commit to much fewer pistols with them when I can’t see what’s in my lunch. And /or just git gud with what you have. Probably a much better use of your time And money. But this is a humble opinion albeit mine.
Having good vision alone doesn't confer all the benefits of a reflex sight. With irons you still need to focus on the front sight for maximum precision, taking focus away from where it naturally wants to go: the target. You can certainly focus on the target with iron sights and sacrifice a bit of precision. A reflex sight lets you focus on the target which makes you faster than being focused on the gun, while giving you more precision than irons ever will.
Not just more accurate, faster too.
In theory yes. In practice it's relatively easy to mitigate the protrusion and make the pistol conceal just as well. It mostly hinges on holster choice and setup. Clothing and RDS selection also play a part.
True, but one would be a fool to not train for that eventuality which is not that difficult. Back up iron sights are an option, so is using raw index plus the outline of the sight. Again, those things need to be learned and practiced. BTW, iron sights are not immune to failure.
To really make an informed decision, one would need to put in the time and effort to get good with a RDS. A lot of people try them, realize they suck, and blame the RDS.
I recommend that you don't wait. It's hard to overstate how much an RDS enables you to be faster and more accurate after you learn how to use one, regardless of how good your vision is.
Coming from a competitive pistol background, I shoot a CZ P09/SRO in carry optics and carry a CZ P07/ 508T. The transition was very easy for me and picked it up within a week of solid dryfire. But my index was already solid from a couple of years of shooting the same pistol with irons.
If you're only going to fire one pistol for the rest of your life then go ahead and learn with the red dot (and make sure you spend proper $$$ on a quality red dot).
If you're ever going to need to shoot a different pistol (at a range, borrowing a friend's, picking it up off the street, etc, etc) it's probably a good idea to get a solid foundation with iron sights first.
Many/most instructors and instructional videos teach their shooting foundations courses with iron sights.
Learning how to shoot with a dot makes learning how to shoot with irons a lot easier because your draw and index are far better developed.
Reflex sights on pistols have destroyed a lot of the conventional wisdom that has accumulated and remained stagnant since the early 70s.
I don't see anyone "acting/posting" that ^^^ .
On the contrary it appears we all agree that dots will expose poor presentation, and that training on proper presentation technique is the best way to improve.
I was debating getting one for my girls fist carry gun, with how she’ll carry it she can pull off the added footprint
Any good new shooter videos on first timer RDS, and judging presentation based on it?
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