Optic for SBR 556?

redrugger · Mar 29, 2023

Hey all,

I currently have a Sig Romeo on my PWS M111 Pro. I was shooting with a friend who was running a Trijicon 1-4 on his sbr and he seemed to enjoy it. I just don't want to give up the quick acquisition on a red dot. So my question is this: is the switch with a multizoom better, or should I get a multizoom and a micro on a 45 cant? Just looking for some guidance on this one before buying some expensive optics.

Kinked_Chrome · Mar 29, 2023

Gonna need more context. Better is relative. What kind of matches do you shoot or what are you training for? The extra capability can be a worth while trade off. If you dont train or compete that much though, just get what the heart desires.

ut755ln · Mar 29, 2023

redrugger said:
Hey all,

I currently have a Sig Romeo on my PWS M111 Pro. I was shooting with a friend who was running a Trijicon 1-4 on his sbr and he seemed to enjoy it. I just don't want to give up the quick acquisition on a red dot. So my question is this: is the switch with a multizoom better, or should I get a multizoom and a micro on a 45 cant? Just looking for some guidance on this one before buying some expensive optics.

First I really like Primary Weapon Systems, grats on a really great platform. A lot of this is going to depend on what you want to do but after trying various red dots and two LPVOs I am firmly on team Eotech. At shorter ranges, I like shooting with both eyes open and the Eotech with its larger window makes it easier for me to pick up the reticle. I have since added a unity riser to elevate the optic and I added the Unity mount for a 3x Eotech magnifier. I am currently selling the 3x and I am going to replace it with the 5x version. The Eotech circle reticle with three dots makes sense to my brain and I am rarely off target. The unit is robust, and I think that they advertise 1,000 hours of battery life. Mine is also NV capable.
So versus what you said, I like having the site in line and not having to cant the gun or move my head. The Unity mounts brings the magnifier in line by travelling up and down instead of canting to the side which I also prefer.

thedude824 · Mar 29, 2023

I cant speak to all LPVOs but I have a Steiner PX4i on one and a Trijicon 1-6 on another. After a few rifle night courses I'm just as fast acquiring and firing with them as I am on my MRO. I admittedly spent quite a bit of time training to bring the rifle to the exact same position whether moving or stationary. Ive never used a RDS with magnifier combo, but I really have no interest in doing so. I do prefer the Trjicons semi circle with dot in the center in green to the Steiners red dot only. The Trijicon is also FFP.

mikeshaw2 · Mar 29, 2023

I've got a Sig Bravo 5 on the 2-gun rifle and a Vortex FFP 1-8 LVPO (class rules ya know) on the PRS/Gas Gun rifle.

Not sure what I'm going to stick on the backup 2-gun/3-gun rifle I'm building now. May (and I stress may!) try my Romeo 5 again. Last time I had it installed, I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with it.

Don't usually run my scopes with the lights lit cause I've got etched reticles

M

B y r o n · Mar 29, 2023

As previously stated, more information about what you're looking to accomplish is needed before recommendations can be made. Or, what do you want to improve over your current setup?

aslrookie · Mar 29, 2023

1-4 is kinda useless, 1-6/8 is sweet spot for SBR. Leave the 1-10 for 14.5” or longer barrels.

TheGerman · Mar 29, 2023

Your ballistic wall with M193/M855 with an 11.5 inch carbine is somewhere around 75 yards.

An SBR is about speed, maneuverability and rounds on target. With that in mind, I can still hit 60% targets at 200 yards, standing, while just using an Aimpoint T1.

If you can't expertly do all 3 of those with an AimPoint or Eotech or at worst, an ACOG with an RMR, I don't know what to tell you because you're bringing the wrong rifle.

towerofpower93 · Mar 30, 2023

ACOG with piggy backed RMR is what I run on my suppressed 10.3"

That also puts the RMR nice and high for passive shooting with NVGs.

Jigstick · Mar 30, 2023

Vortex Huey has performed well for me on my 10.5in. I had issues with blurry reticle with the EXPS3 Eotechs despite not having an astigmatism. For whatever reason the reticle is more crisp for me with the Huey. The FOV feels better with the Huey too.

Docsherm · Mar 30, 2023

Any variable optic on a barrel shorter than 12.5 is wasted. A reflex sight is what you want. Only magnified optic I would say to use is an ACOG (TA33 best case) with a Piggy-backed RMR.

Offset Reflex sights are completely useless. 12 o'clock Piggy-backed reflex sights are great for Passive NVG shooting.

jb0311 · Mar 30, 2023

Agree with all who mentioned not using a magnifier or magnified optic. I run both eotech and aimpoint t2 optics on sbrs. For ME, the aimpoints tend to be a little more precise at distance but can be harder to pick up due to the smaller window. Training remedies this. The eotechs for most are easier/quicker to get on target. No reason to complicate things or add more weight with magnifiers or piggybacking rds on a SBR. I do run a 1-6x LPVO on a 12.5" 6.8spc but that is because it's a hunting rifle. All my other SBRs are 10.5 and 11.5" barrels and run the aforementioned sights.

Molon · Mar 30, 2023

Docsherm said:
Offset Reflex sights are completely useless.

Officer Rex Engelbert proved otherwise.

....

Docsherm · Mar 30, 2023

Molon said:
Officer Rex Engelbert proved otherwise.

....

All that does is shoe he is an amateur...... if he wasn't on 1x going in then that is a fail on him.

If trained properly should have made that shot on 6x with no issues.

S197 · Mar 30, 2023

redrugger said:
Hey all,

I currently have an Sig Romeo on my PWS M111 Pro. I was shooting with a friend who was running a Trijicon 1-4 on his sbr and he seemed to enjoy it. I just don't want to give up the quick acquisition on a red dot. So my question is this: is the switch with a multizoom better, or should I get a multizoom and a micro on a 45 cant? Just looking for some guidance on this one before buying some expensive optics.

What is your budget? This will have the greatest impact on a lpvo to pick from. Also Cheap lpvo’s have a tight eye box and become worthless as a red dot.

thedude824 · Mar 31, 2023

I'm really suprised by the posts in this thread. Im not a super high speed guy, but I train relatively regularly and had some additional training while working in LE and some classes. Several guys that attend the rifle nights keep track of their times and scores religiously and use red dots. Our targets are 25 yards and in. In terms of total score Im neck and neck with them. I may fall a couple seconds behind, but I nearly always have a better hit score. When we shoot to 100 it isn't even close. Thats with a "useless" 1-4 Steiner (which doesn't have the clarity or eyebox of a Razor). Maybe you guys are shooting at larger targets? I can pickup the red dot on my Steiner just as quickly as my MRO. It took a little more training, but Ive never seen anyone demonstrate the superiority of a red dot even in close CQB style courses.

Molon · Mar 31, 2023

Docsherm said:
All that does is shoe he is an amateur...... if he wasn't on 1x going in then that is a fail on him.

If trained properly should have made that shot on 6x with no issues.

Shitting on a true American hero. Stay classy.

Docsherm · Mar 31, 2023

Molon said:
Shitting on a true American hero. Stay classy.

Nope.... Just not a fan boy and calling it like it is.

ut755ln · Mar 31, 2023

thedude824 said:
I'm really suprised by the posts in this thread. Im not a super high speed guy, but I train relatively regularly and had some additional training while working in LE and some classes. Several guys that attend the rifle nights keep track of their times and scores religiously and use red dots. Our targets are 25 yards and in. In terms of total score Im neck and neck with them. I may fall a couple seconds behind, but I nearly always have a better hit score. When we shoot to 100 it isn't even close. Thats with a "useless" 1-4 Steiner (which doesn't have the clarity or eyebox of a Razor). Maybe you guys are shooting at larger targets? I can pickup the red dot on my Steiner just as quickly as my MRO. It took a little more training, but Ive never seen anyone demonstrate the superiority of a red dot even in close CQB style courses.

My son is currently in the USN and serves with the teams. The vast majority use Eotech on their CQB rifles with a smattering of other red dots like Aimpoint. Their reasoning is better field of view and consistent points of contact. I will ask if they have looked at speed differentials between the systems. I know if their kits that they usually deploy with two different uppers, I will ask if there is a preferred or most common setup.

jb0311 · Mar 31, 2023

ut755ln said:
My son is currently in the USN and serves with the teams. The vast majority use Eotech on their CQB rifles with a smattering of other red dots like Aimpoint. Their reasoning is better field of view and consistent points of contact. I will ask if they have looked at speed differentials between the systems. I know if their kits that they usually deploy with two different uppers, I will ask if there is a preferred or most common setup.

For what it’s worth, I’ve always found the eotechs to be much easier behind nods as well.

BamaSE · Mar 31, 2023

Everybody’s eyes are different of course….but one positive with the Eotech is being able to view a clear red dot despite my astigmatism. That became a major problem for me with other red dots as I have aged.

roostercogburn98 · Mar 31, 2023

Docsherm said:
Only magnified optic I would say to use is an ACOG

Eye relief on a nxs 1-4 is better, and field of view is significantly better at 100 yards over an acog. Why limit yourself to one power level if you are using magnification at all?

Docsherm · Mar 31, 2023

roostercogburn98 said:
Eye relief on a nxs 1-4 is better, and field of view is significantly better at 100 yards over an acog. Why limit yourself to one power level if you are using magnification at all?

Sorry, I was referring to the TA33. It has good eye relief, about the same as most 1-4 optics. I know it is about the same as my Steiner 1-4. I uses one with a Piggyback RMR for Passive NVG shooting.

roostercogburn98 · Mar 31, 2023

Docsherm said:
Sorry, I was referring to the TA33. It has good eye relief, about the same as most 1-4 optics. I know it is about the same as my Steiner 1-4. I uses one with a Piggyback RMR for Passive NVG shooting.

Ta33 eye relief is 1.9 inches
Nxs 1-4 is 3.9

Steve_In_29 · Mar 31, 2023

"SBR" covers a lot of territory (inches). So 7.5"... 10.5"...11.5"...12.5"....13.7"...??

And as was asked, what are you doing with the rifle and what are your plans?

On my short barrels I like an EOTech or other donut-of-death reticle red dot. Throw that big circle on their chest and pull the trigger. Use center dot for finer aiming and for distance flip the x3 into play.

Steve_In_29 · Mar 31, 2023

Molon said:
Shitting on a true American hero. Stay classy.

Doesn't change the fact he went in with his scope set to the wrong magnification for the situation. VERY little need for x6 inside a building.

Molon · Mar 31, 2023

Steve_In_29 said:
VERY little need for x6 inside a building.

Docsherm said:
If trained properly should have made that shot on 6x with no issues.

.....

Molon · Mar 31, 2023

Steve_In_29 said:
Doesn't change the fact he went in with his scope set to the wrong magnification for the situation.

Wanna know how I know that you didn't even watch the video before posting your retarded comment?

...

alamo5000 · Mar 31, 2023

TheGerman said:
Your ballistic wall with M193/M855 with an 11.5 inch carbine is somewhere around 75 yards.

An SBR is about speed, maneuverability and rounds on target. With that in mind, I can still hit 60% targets at 200 yards, standing, while just using an Aimpoint T1.

If you can't expertly do all 3 of those with an AimPoint or Eotech or at worst, an ACOG with an RMR, I don't know what to tell you because you're bringing the wrong rifle.

I am not a professional by any means, but this is exactly how I feel about it. With my 10.5 I can hit a 1/2 size IPSC target at 200 yards with an Aimpoint T2.

That said my take is with that type of rifle going variable compromises in the wrong direction. I've toyed with building a 12.5 and if I do it will probably have a 1-4 or 1-6 on it. On a 10.5 to 11.5 a 1x is my choice.

With a shorty short the ballistics are like you said. Within 100 yards is about what it's for.

At the end of the day the mission should dictate the gear. Getting a variable optic just because your friend did is a bad reason to spend the money.

Steve_In_29 · Mar 31, 2023

Molon said:
Wanna know how I know that you didn't even watch the video before posting your retarded comment?

...

You didn't post a video, I took the other poster at his word. But after finding it to watch I stand corrected as his LVPO setting was immaterial since he didn't use it that I could tell,

However your emoji to the contrary in another reply, there is indeed VERY little use for 6x magnification inside a building.

An "American hero" is a bit overblown though, as he simply did the JOB people expect their taxes to pay for. And he wasn't the only person in the building or even leading the charge.

jb0311 · Mar 31, 2023

Molon said:
Wanna know how I know that you didn't even watch the video before posting your retarded comment?

...

Post a video if you expect people to watch a video. You posted a 1.5 second gif and a useless picture…

ut755ln · Apr 1, 2023

ut755ln said:
My son is currently in the USN and serves with the teams. The vast majority use Eotech on their CQB rifles with a smattering of other red dots like Aimpoint. Their reasoning is better field of view and consistent points of contact. I will ask if they have looked at speed differentials between the systems. I know if their kits that they usually deploy with two different uppers, I will ask if there is a preferred or most common setup.

It is weird quoting to myself but it provides context. My son says that the setups are very mission specific in that when they are doing CQB they go in with a pure CQB setup. The current setup that is most common is a Sig short stroke piston upper. The lowers are team member dependent, some dislike ambi lowers. Most of them use a different iteration of the same Geissle trigger, SSA or SSA-E or Super Dynamic Combat. With the optics specifically, it is still apparently EOTECH by a mile because of the FOV and the ability to get on targets quickly. With the CQB setup they still use a 36 yard zero and are good with the EOTECH to 200 meters without much thought. He says a lot of them are using co witness iron sites with the dot optics. He has not seen anyone using an lpvo on a CQB setup.

highbclowgr · Apr 1, 2023

TheGerman said:
Your ballistic wall with M193/M855 with an 11.5 inch carbine is somewhere around 75 yards.

An SBR is about speed, maneuverability and rounds on target. With that in mind, I can still hit 60% targets at 200 yards, standing, while just using an Aimpoint T1.

If you can't expertly do all 3 of those with an AimPoint or Eotech or at worst, an ACOG with an RMR, I don't know what to tell you because you're bringing the wrong rifle.

Yeah. SBRs suck for hiding muzzle flash.

That's why Canadians shot about 100 trained Croats muzzle flashes (M70s) with their Elcan 20" C7's back in the retro days.
0-100 was the score.

SBRs are meant to be suppressed or heavily flash suppressed. I laugh at people with Compensators. Fun I guess. Not great for going up against anything serious.

SBRs are good for playing with at the range
or for hits on target. 0-25m.

highbclowgr · Apr 1, 2023

No more Posovina wheat for them.

redrugger · Apr 4, 2023

ut755ln said:
It is weird quoting to myself but it provides context. My son says that the setups are very mission specific in that when they are doing CQB they go in with a pure CQB setup. The current setup that is most common is a Sig short stroke piston upper. The lowers are team member dependent, some dislike ambi lowers. Most of them use a different iteration of the same Geissle trigger, SSA or SSA-E or Super Dynamic Combat. With the optics specifically, it is still apparently EOTECH by a mile because of the FOV and the ability to get on targets quickly. With the CQB setup they still use a 36 yard zero and are good with the EOTECH to 200 meters without much thought. He says a lot of them are using co witness iron sites with the dot optics. He has not seen anyone using an lpvo on a CQB setup.

Which EOTECH model did they say they were using? And were they running a magnifier with it?

ut755ln · Apr 4, 2023

redrugger said:
Which EOTECH model did they say they were using? And were they running a magnifier with it?

Looking at the picture of his rifle, it looks like the 5xx series.

bigjake83 · Apr 4, 2023

No love for the Nightforce NX8 1-8??

I'd love to have one of the March 1-10 Shorty's with the adjustable parallax dual focal planes.

TonyTheTiger · Apr 4, 2023

bigjake83 said:
No love for the Nightforce NX8 1-8??

No. I thought I was looking through a gen1 Strike Eagle the first time I looked through one. And the second time.
Actually, every time I've looked through one.

bigjake83 · Apr 4, 2023

TonyTheTiger said:
No. I thought I was looking through a gen1 Strike Eagle the first time I looked through one. And the second time.
Actually, every time I've looked through one.

Good to know.

Ever played with the March-f 1-10x24 shorty?? I really like the idea of the adjustable parallax, always seems odd to me to put a fixed 150yrd parallax on a LPVO!

TonyTheTiger · Apr 4, 2023

bigjake83 said:
Ever played with the March-f 1-10x24 shorty??

Nope, never seen one in the wild.

To be clear on the NX8, the glass quality is fine, it's the whole looking through a paper towel tube experience that is so off putting. The scope on the right is the ATACR, and the NX8 is worse.

Charger442 · Apr 4, 2023

TA-44-C, for the win

Spectre3 · Apr 6, 2023

A lot of people here are telling you that an lpvo is useless on a short rifle. For making hits in the effective range of the rifle, they're correct. What they're forgetting is that the big advantage of an lpvo is getting PID. Since you never stated the purpose of this rifle, all we can really tell you is that if you have a need to ensure PID, then get an lpvo. You can learn to shoot fast up close at 1x pretty easily. If you don't need that capability, just stick with what you have.

Charger442 · Apr 6, 2023

TonyTheTiger said:
Nope, never seen one in the wild.

i like my March Shorty. Sits on a KAC SR-15 and behind a DBAL and thermal clipon, also. i think its an incredible optic for the footprint and i have always liked March's glass and the Dual Focal plane design. i really despise a FFP in a small LPVO like that.

Tex68w · Apr 9, 2023

I used to only run Aimpoint T1/2's for the sake of weight/size, durability, and battery life. I don't have a full blown astigmatism but I was starting to see the dot as more of slight stretch than a true dot so I switched over to EXPS Eotech's on everything with a dot due to their much better FOV and massive superiority with NV/Nods. I find that my time on target and splits have improved due to the donut of death. Battery life is trash in comparison to an Aimpoint and the unit switches off after eight hours but neither are a detriment to how I use my rifles.

I am finally setting up a 14.5 " with a LPVO but it is by no means going to be a primary use rifle, simply another option to have in the quiver with the ability to better TID from 100-300. IMHO a SBR is better served with a red dot than a LPVO but that doesn't mean that with proper training and time on the gun that someone can't become as efficient with a LPVO as they are with a red dot, different strokes.

houndog · Apr 9, 2023

I think with optics recommendations you need to be careful not to assume everyone has the same vision. I've seen lot's of people claim that any reasonably competent shooter should be able to get hits on steel out to at least 300 with a red dot. As someone who is 65 years old, has a pretty significant astigmatism and less than 20/20 vision, that's just not true for me. With most red dots I don't see a dot so much as a asymmetrical blob. Definitely worse with some red dots and better with others. Eotechs honestly seem to be the best. And Trijicon MRO is the best of the traditional red dots (have no idea why). So I'm someone who definitely needs some kind of LPVO to get consistent hits out to 2-300 yards. And no, it's not that I lack the skill to get long range hits. Give me a LPVO (even something like a 1-4X) and I can get consistent hits on a 12" steel plate at 200 yards from a sitting position. Let me rest the rifle on a sandbag up front, with no support in the rear and hits on a 6" steel plate are no problem at 200 yards. If I switch to a dot, things fall apart.

Similarly, using an ACOG at close range has never really been a problem for me. Took a carbine class a couple of years ago where I think I ran a 3.5x ACOG for the entire class and didn't have a problem even though some of the drills were 10 yards and in. Would I have been faster with a dot? Probably a little, but when we went out to 200 yards I really appreciated the magnification.

Bottom line, everyone is different and you need to figure out what works for you.

Happiness Is A Warm Gun · Jun 14, 2023

bigjake83 said:
Good to know.

Ever played with the March-f 1-10x24 shorty?? I really like the idea of the adjustable parallax, always seems odd to me to put a fixed 150yrd parallax on a LPVO!

I just picked one up. At least for me, the hype is real. I was cynical that they could fit all the features into it for the size and weight, but they did it. I think the adjustable parallax is a big part of how they managed to do it.

Jabberjaw · Jun 14, 2023

To me an SBR is a close in tool, so mine wears an Aimpoint.

st1650 · Jun 14, 2023

Now that people are getting used to 1.93 and 2.26 red dots for passive NV, the TA33 with piggyback RMR is back on the menu. Perfect for 10.5-12.5.

mrtoyz · Jun 14, 2023

Always interesting to see people’s thoughts opinions on SBR optics.
I suspect we will see a movement toward LPVO’s on the 11.5”-13.7” 5.56 guns as well as for 9” or longer 300blk shooting supers. Specifically as a general purpose weapon to middle distances (200-300yd), not necessarily QCB specific.
Why the move to LPVO’s? IMO 3 reasons:
1. LPVO’s technology is advancing rapidly. Specifically the ability to use nearly as rapidly as a red dot. Not too long and I suspect there won’t be much difference with top tier company’s. Nearly there now. Additionally, LPVO’s are getting smaller and lighter. i.e. March 1-10 and NX8 1-8. NX8 in Scalarworks weighs less than an EXPS3+G45.
2. PID
3. Realistic target size. How often in a gun fight would you have an IPSC size target? Is it more realistic to think about 6”x6”, head size targets? Makes sense to me. At 200-300yds, under stress, that’s not necessarily an easy task without the appropriate training and skill.

towerofpower93 · Jun 15, 2023

st1650 said:
Now that people are getting used to 1.93 and 2.26 red dots for passive NV, the TA33 with piggyback RMR is back on the menu. Perfect for 10.5-12.5.

That's what my Colt 6945 wears.

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