Ayn Rand.

fpgt72 · May 4, 2023

Lets see how this goes.

I think a little personal background on how I came to read her is in order, and will explain the thread a bit.

I had see memes with her quotes here and there over the years, spent the 10sec to read them and thought, yup. Then I joined here a bit ago. Originally wanted to do the long range thing, but a standby generator took that money and now I am thinking I am really too old for any real game. At one time I did quite a few games, but I just can't move like I once did, I tried bowling pins but that was just a bore, so now just shoot out back, and the odd starling here and there. So I have come to skim new posts and really hang out in the pit.

Down there more then a few threads had memes with her quotes and such.....ok darn it I will just read her. What to read, well "the" book is Atlas Shrugged.....good night that is a big'en. But I did it, sometimes it could have moved faster, other times I re read a section 3-4 times, it was that interesting.

If you count books finished this year I have read:

Atlas Shrugged
The virtue of selfishness
Anthem
Philosophy who needs it

All of those Rand. I did also read it was a gift after someone found out I was on this kick.

Amusing Ourselves to death.

I have found I enjoy talking about her views on about everything. I think I might find some here that might enjoy it as well. Perhaps this thread will make someone do what I did, pick up one of her books. I knew nothing of her book, no plot no underlying anything, nothing about Atlas. I was blind going in, and that might have been a good thing, zero clue what it was about.

Just hit Chap 18 on Philosophy one thing said in that book, a book that is speeches and papers written by here mainly in the 70's.

There is something that is interesting in that book that I just read this morning.

Words to the effect:

People sense something has gone wrong, they don't know what. This is the price they pay for being the silent and deaf majority. Americans are anti-intellectual, and with the current examples no wonder why. The do however place great value on education and that is now being shaken.

This was written IIRC in 1972. I would love to know what she would say about the world today.

There is another part in this book where a person wrights her a letter asking just what can one man do?

She says talk, don't preach just talk. Even if that is saying I don't agree. There is value in talking there is no value in keeping quiet. If you are silent you agree.

Perhaps that is what I am doing in todays digital world, talking. The folk I hang out with work and home generally have the same mindset as I. There are a few lefties around, yes even in a cop shop, and we have our little discussions back and forth. However they are not as much fun anymore, he is starting to see the light, just like most lefties that can actually think.

Lets see how this goes.

sirhrmechanic · May 4, 2023

Ayn Rand was a 'thing' back in the 1980's. I think that's when she really caught on... less so in the '50's through '70's. when people said "Can't happen here." While watching hippies and socialists and commies destroy the West one country after another. The libertarian movement somewhat came out of Ayn Rand, among other sages.

Hard reading... but there is a reason there are societies, discussion groups and forums exist solely for the discussion of what were not only her ideas, but her first-hand experiences. She fled Communist USSR... And then watched as the Communists slowly eroded American freedoms and values.

Today, she would be on every talk show... or more likely cancelled. With extreme prejudice.

Crony Capitalism... destruction of success... crumbling infrastructure... seizure of assets by governments and NGO's... and a flight of 'intellectual capital' are all happening like never before. "Why bother, say the inventors, etc." Moreover... instead of actually building things or improving things... how much intellectual capital in this country is being mindlessly squandered playing Farmville or Forge of Empires and creating... nothing. Digital makework. All things Ayn Rand posited.

Great potential thread. It will definitely bring out the commie moonbats dumping all over her... But she was and is right on. Noone can say "You weren't warned about these people."

Sirhr

OREGUN · May 4, 2023

Well, she was ardently pro choice so she got one thing right.

And I’m not a “commie moonbat” but her writing sucks, her books are fictional flights of fancy, and her philosophy of selfishness fails on the same points of lack of human integrity as communism. So, same shit, different name.

But worshipping her books’ characters has the same flavor as worshipping 45 so it’s real popular on here.

diverdon · May 4, 2023

I'm glad that I read her books before I learned anything about her life. Her journey to escape the USSR was heroic. But in America she publicly cuckolded her husband. While she rationalized that this behavior fit with her libertarian ideals, I cannot make it fit my morals.

Atlas may shrug, but he will not build a secret country in the mountains.

yakstone · May 4, 2023

diverdon said:
I'm glad that I read her books before I learned anything about her life. Her journey to escape the USSR was heroic. But in America she publicly cuckolded her husband. While she rationalized that this behavior fit with her libertarian ideals, I cannot make it fit my morals.

Atlas may shrug, but he will not build a secret country in the mountains.

The Fountainhead is also an interesting read. I too read Atlas and The Fountainhead as introductions to Rand.

lash · May 4, 2023

OREGUN said:
Well, she was ardently pro choice so she got one thing right.

And I’m not a “commie moonbat” but her writing sucks, her books are fictional flights of fancy, and her philosophy of selfishness fails on the same points of lack of human integrity as communism. So, same shit, different name.

But worshipping her books’ characters has the same flavor as worshipping 45 so it’s real popular on here.

Interesting point of view.

I do not worship either her or her books and am an avid reader of many things.

I would ask though, how would you have written those books or about the concepts she espoused? Are not Animal Farm, Brave New World, and 1984 also fictional flights of fancy?

Also, to your next point, while valid; is not some selfishness a prerequisite to be able to love others? Even the Bible says so. “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.”

Maggot · May 4, 2023

OREGUN said:
Well, she was ardently pro choice so she got one thing right.

And I’m not a “commie moonbat” but her writing sucks, her books are fictional flights of fancy, and her philosophy of selfishness fails on the same points of lack of human integrity as communism. So, same shit, different name.

But worshipping her books’ characters has the same flavor as worshipping 45 so it’s real popular on here.

"Well, she was ardently pro choice so she got one thing right.

I agree 100% as long as you recognize the unborn human in the woman's belly is a 'HUMAN' and endowed with the same right to life, liberty, and the pursiut of happiness as every other human and no one has the right to terminate that life without its approval. Outside of that approval, its cold blooded murder, with the exception being the life of the mother.

lash said:
Interesting point of view.

I do not worship either her or her books and am an avid reader of many things.

I would ask though, how would you have written those books or about the concepts she espoused? Are not Animal Farm, Brave New World, and 1984 also fictional flights of fancy?

Also, to your next point, while valid; is not some selfishness a prerequisite to be able to love others? Even the Bible says so. “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.”

IMHO, having studied both religion deeply and philosophy academically, there is a difference between 'selfishness', and 'loving oneself'.

-Selfishness, to me means 'thinking of and placing self, above and as more important than others' and excluding its needs to satisfy your own without regard to consequence.
Win/lose

-Loving oneself as ones neighbor, means recognizing that every action has an equal opposite reaction, that you always reap as you sow, and taking care that you preform only actions, plant only seeds, that you wish to return to you. If you do that, then only good returns to all.
Win/Win

Maggot · May 4, 2023

fpgt72 said:
Lets see how this goes.

I think a little personal background on how I came to read her is in order, and will explain the thread a bit.

I had see memes with her quotes here and there over the years, spent the 10sec to read them and thought, yup. Then I joined here a bit ago. Originally wanted to do the long range thing, but a standby generator took that money and now I am thinking I am really too old for any real game. At one time I did quite a few games, but I just can't move like I once did, I tried bowling pins but that was just a bore, so now just shoot out back, and the odd starling here and there. So I have come to skim new posts and really hang out in the pit.

Down there more then a few threads had memes with her quotes and such.....ok darn it I will just read her. What to read, well "the" book is Atlas Shrugged.....good night that is a big'en. But I did it, sometimes it could have moved faster, other times I re read a section 3-4 times, it was that interesting.

If you count books finished this year I have read:

Atlas Shrugged
The virtue of selfishness
Anthem
Philosophy who needs it

All of those Rand. I did also read it was a gift after someone found out I was on this kick.

Amusing Ourselves to death.

I have found I enjoy talking about her views on about everything. I think I might find some here that might enjoy it as well. Perhaps this thread will make someone do what I did, pick up one of her books. I knew nothing of her book, no plot no underlying anything, nothing about Atlas. I was blind going in, and that might have been a good thing, zero clue what it was about.

Just hit Chap 18 on Philosophy one thing said in that book, a book that is speeches and papers written by here mainly in the 70's.

There is something that is interesting in that book that I just read this morning.

Words to the effect:

People sense something has gone wrong, they don't know what. This is the price they pay for being the silent and deaf majority. Americans are anti-intellectual, and with the current examples no wonder why. The do however place great value on education and that is now being shaken.

This was written IIRC in 1972. I would love to know what she would say about the world today.

There is another part in this book where a person wrights her a letter asking just what can one man do?

She says talk, don't preach just talk. Even if that is saying I don't agree. There is value in talking there is no value in keeping quiet. If you are silent you agree.

Perhaps that is what I am doing in todays digital world, talking. The folk I hang out with work and home generally have the same mindset as I. There are a few lefties around, yes even in a cop shop, and we have our little discussions back and forth. However they are not as much fun anymore, he is starting to see the light, just like most lefties that can actually think.

Lets see how this goes.

I tried reading some of her stuff but it was harder than Faulkner. Having studied philosophy I'll try that one if I can find it. Mybe we should set up a book exchange sub heading under Good Reads thread.

Baron23 · May 4, 2023

OREGUN said:
Well, she was ardently pro choice so she got one thing right.

And I’m not a “commie moonbat” but her writing sucks, her books are fictional flights of fancy, and her philosophy of selfishness fails on the same points of lack of human integrity as communism. So, same shit, different name.

But worshipping her books’ characters has the same flavor as worshipping 45 so it’s real popular on here.

Im with you on this

Enough Said · May 4, 2023

OREGUN said:
Well, she was ardently pro choice so she got one thing right.

And I’m not a “commie moonbat” but her writing sucks, her books are fictional flights of fancy, and her philosophy of selfishness fails on the same points of lack of human integrity as communism. So, same shit, different name.

But worshipping her books’ characters has the same flavor as worshipping 45 so it’s real popular on here.

Northwest U.S. doctrine. LOL

fpgt72 · May 4, 2023

Maggot said:
I tried reading some of her stuff but it was harder than Faulkner. Having studied philosophy I'll try that one if I can find it. Mybe we should set up a book exchange sub heading under Good Reads thread.

I like that idea.

fpgt72 · May 4, 2023

I think the style of how she wrote was a product of the times in part, how she was raised in part, and where.

Personally I think russians can be a little long winded, I also read gulag archipelago and that one was rough as well, but enough to keep me powering through. I think it should be required reading. If I was a teacher I think I would make that one book a focus. Also the book was written in the 50's. Outside of WWII people just did not know the outside world real well. It was very possible to live your entire life and never see a picture of New York city. I think trying to "color" that world so people could get a mental photo of it plays a part of as well.

W54/XM-388 · May 4, 2023

I would suggest that The Fountainhead, then Atlas Shrugged, then Anthem is a good start to her ideas.

I would caution however against becoming too much of a rabid devotee and thinking of her works as gospel truths.
She makes a lot of great points and very important things to think about for your life and actions.
However she falls victim in the end to her own worship of mankind as some kind of ultimate ideal, she saw her heroes and some kind of perfect demigods.
In that I think she made a large error, she didn't understand that all humans have evil in them and in her idea utopia, it would quickly become the horrors of the feudal era with the new ruling class oppressing the crap out of everyone until folks had nothing left and were slaves.

So learn lots, and apply lots to your life, but don't make it a religion because any religion based on worshiping the virtue of humans (even some of them) will lead you astray.

fpgt72 · May 4, 2023

Maggot said:
"Well, she was ardently pro choice so she got one thing right.

I agree 100% as long as you recognize the unborn human in the woman's belly is a 'HUMAN' and endowed with the same right to life, liberty, and the pursiut of happiness as every other human and no one has the right to terminate that life without its approval. Outside of that approval, its cold blooded murder, with the exception being the life of the mother.

IMHO, having studied both religion deeply and philosophy academically, there is a difference between 'selfishness', and 'loving oneself'.

-Selfishness, to me means 'thinking of and placing self, above and as more important than others' and excluding its needs to satisfy your own without regard to consequence.
Win/lose

-Loving oneself as ones neighbor, means recognizing that every action has an equal opposite reaction, that you always reap as you sow, and taking care that you preform only actions, plant only seeds, that you wish to return to you. If you do that, then only good returns to all.
Win/Win

From what I have read I don't think this is all accurate. The last 10 words are the hard stop for me. If your "needs" require you to have a Rolex, to me your statement knocking someone on the head would be ok as your needs are met.

In her Mike Wallace interview, you can find it on youtube, I will try to remember to stick it in here if I remember, she talks about something early in the interview that is a real deal today. Environment, she says the americans will clean up their back yard or park but when it comes to keeping that clean or the new technology or industry the tech or industry will win. These are my words on what she said. Well nope, and we can see that now. If anything I think she was a bit naive on just how things would end up.

I see the selfishness thing as you can't take care of anyone else till you take care of yourself first. She was hard against forced help, food stamps for example was a hard now. But if the members of a church CHOOSE to open a pantry that is just fine and more power to you. But don't be forced or guilted into anything.

fpgt72 · May 4, 2023

She selfishness book I think would be a good one for someone wanting to dip their toe in. Each "chapter" is fairly short, and to the point. Some of them are transcripts of speeches she gave. You can hop around to whatever interests you at the moment and not "mess up" anything. I think even in the preference it says if you are new to her start with chapter X, I don't remember what that was.

fpgt72 · May 4, 2023

I also don't worship her, that is reserved believe it or not. It is interesting to read, or very dangerous to read depending on your point of view, and will likely be on a list to be burned in a few years.

I have learned a great deal while I have been off on this kick, and it has helped me in talking to others with my viewpoint as well as those that don't.

Not my usual books, I think I have a fairly new list in the book report thread.

Hobo Hilton · May 4, 2023

Reading Ayn Rand's writings are similar to having sex.
It's all about how the reader immures himself into the story.
For some it's "Wam, Bam thank you Mam.... No emotional connection.
For some of us, going back and re-reading a previous chapter is like allowing the mind to "wander" while having sex.
Those who "linger" while reading will take that "scent" with them when they are finished.... similar to good sex.
One way or another, Ayn will stay in the readers mind. Some will come back for more.

Jgault · May 4, 2023

Ayn Rand probably influenced my line of thinking more than any other writer. I was young and tempted by a liberal line of thinking when I read the fountainhead. While I have never worshiped her books, I completely subscribe to her theory of selfishness, and that it has helped more people than any other way of thinking the world has produced. While I don't agree with all of her views, her views on the economy, government cronyism, self image, the nature of freedom, and the destructive nature of communism and liberalism are spot on. It undeniable that the industrialists even with their faults did more to help mankind than all of the humanists combined. Yes Atlas Shrugged is an allegory taking the dangers of liberalism to an extreme, yet even as farfetched as the book attempted to be it is becoming not that far from the truth almost 70 years later. Rand's so called selfishness is simply being the best you can be without intervention from society or the government, and in being selfish goods and services are created and invented that benefit everyone, not to mention the benefits to your own mental health. One of her most basic points is so naturally true yet we rail against it because of what society says, that we cannot help or respect others until we first love and respect ourselves. We have seen in the last view years that our country is now in a race to see who is the biggest victim, like receiving pity is an Olympic event.

“This is pity,” he thought, and then he lifted his head in wonder. He thought that there must be something terribly wrong with a world in which this monstrous feeling is called a virtue.” The Fountainhead

OREGUN · May 4, 2023

Enough Said said:
Northwest U.S. doctrine. LOL

Parroting things you’ve heard about a place you’ve never lived. Lol.

lash · May 4, 2023

Maggot said:
-Loving oneself as ones neighbor, means recognizing that every action has an equal opposite reaction, that you always reap as you sow, and taking care that you preform only actions, plant only seeds, that you wish to return to you. If you do that, then only good returns to all.
Win/Win

This sounds a lot like the definition of selfishness to me.

In order to love oneself one must understand that self and accept it for what it is or make the appropriate changes in that self so that it is worth loving. This is a sort of selfishness in that it requires one to focus upon the self. The same applies to your interactions with others. Without an empathy to try and understand that person within reason, one cannot truly love another.

ggmanning · May 4, 2023

OREGUN said:
Parroting things you’ve heard about a place you’ve never lived. Lol.

Not really....just calling out what we have learned as they continue to invade the SE from the shit holes they created.

Maggot · May 4, 2023

W54/XM-388 said:
I would suggest that The Fountainhead, then Atlas Shrugged, then Anthem is a good start to her ideas.

I would caution however against becoming too much of a rabid devotee and thinking of her works as gospel truths.
She makes a lot of great points and very important things to think about for your life and actions.
However she falls victim in the end to her own worship of mankind as some kind of ultimate ideal, she saw her heroes and some kind of perfect demigods.
In that I think she made a large error, she didn't understand that all humans have evil in them and in her idea utopia, it would quickly become the horrors of the feudal era with the new ruling class oppressing the crap out of everyone until folks had nothing left and were slaves.

So learn lots, and apply lots to your life, but don't make it a religion because any religion based on worshiping the virtue of humans (even some of them) will lead you astray.

Its called "Humanism'. Reason and flesh without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Gets you to exactly where we are now. The power of knowledge without the application of wisdom.

Maggot · May 4, 2023

lash said:
This sounds a lot like the definition of selfishness to me.

In order to love oneself one must understand that self and accept it for what it is or make the appropriate changes in that self so that it is worth loving. This is a sort of selfishness in that it requires one to focus upon the self. The same applies to your interactions with others. Without an empathy to try and understand that person within reason, one cannot truly love another.

Those changes you speak of come with the wisdom of action and reaction. I would likely add to that that most change is initiated because of pain. Mine was. One day I realized that if I ddnt like what was coming in, I need to change what I was putting out. One could call it selfishness and not be wrong, but I'd call that wisdom.

lash · May 4, 2023

Maggot said:
Those changes you speak of come with the wisdom of action and reaction. I would likely add to that that most change is initiated because of pain. Mine was. One day I realized that if I ddnt like what was coming in, I need to change what I was putting out. One could call it selfishness and not be wrong, but I'd call that wisdom.

Potato, potato

Maggot · May 4, 2023

Jgault said:
Ayn Rand probably influenced my line of thinking more than any other writer. I was young and tempted by a liberal line of thinking when I read the fountainhead. While I have never worshiped her books, I completely subscribe to her theory of selfishness, and that it has helped more people than any other way of thinking the world has produced. While I don't agree with all of her views, her views on the economy, government cronyism, self image, the nature of freedom, and the destructive nature of communism and liberalism are spot on. It undeniable that the industrialists even with their faults did more to help mankind than all of the humanists combined. Yes Atlas Shrugged is an allegory taking the dangers of liberalism to an extreme, yet even as farfetched as the book attempted to be it is becoming not that far from the truth almost 70 years later. Rand's so called selfishness is simply being the best you can be without intervention from society or the government, and in being selfish goods and services are created and invented that benefit everyone, not to mention the benefits to your own mental health. One of her most basic points is so naturally true yet we rail against it because of what society says, that we cannot help or respect others until we first love and respect ourselves. We have seen in the last view years that our country is now in a race to see who is the biggest victim, like receiving pity is an Olympic event.

“This is pity,” he thought, and then he lifted his head in wonder. He thought that there must be something terribly wrong with a world in which this monstrous feeling is called a virtue.” The Fountainhead

I see a difference in 'pity' and 'compassion'. Pity is wasted emotion; compassion, may lead to action.

Maser · May 4, 2023

I will never understand why my fellow Libertarians are so obsessed with her. She literally said that Libertarians would be the death of this country.

Maggot · May 4, 2023

Maser said:
I will never understand why my fellow Libertarians are so obsessed with her. She literally said that Libertarians would be the death of this country.

Perhaps you should give up Libertarianism and take up Realism?

Jgault · May 4, 2023

Maggot said:
I see a difference in 'pity' and 'compassion'. Pity is wasted emotion; compassion, may lead to action.

Yes there is a huge difference, between pity, empathy, and compassion. Pity inevitability leads to the one expressing pity to look down on the one receiving it, and leads the one receiving it to grow to hate the one giving it. Our welfare system is based on pity, and as always the one giving the welfare has a disdain for the recipients and the recipients are turned into beggars hating themselves and those who gave them the welfare. On the other hand a program born of compassion that teaches the individual to earn for themselves leads to the gratitude of the recipient.

Jgault · May 4, 2023

Maser said:
I will never understand why my fellow Libertarians are so obsessed with her. She literally said that Libertarians would be the death of this country.

As I said there are things I disagree with her on, but if I only tried to learn from someone I agreed with everything they thought there wouldn’t be anyone left to learn from. Yes I am libertarian on most issues, but Rand’s writings to me at least are littered with wisdom, especially when it comes to the strength of the individual vs the collective and the road to hell she saw us beginning to take in the 1950’s, and the last 70 years have shown she was scarily correct.

Maggot · May 4, 2023

Jgault said:
Yes there is a huge difference, between pity, empathy, and compassion. Pity inevitability leads to the one expressing pity to look down on the one receiving it, and leads the one receiving it to grow to hate the one giving it. Our welfare system is based on pity, and as always the one giving the welfare has a disdain for the recipients and the recipients are turned into beggars hating themselves and those who gave them the welfare. On the other hand a program born of compassion that teaches the individual to earn for themselves leads to the gratitude of the recipient.

Good distinction.

Thats what happened in the 60's. Regardless of the underlying intent of Johnson, I think a lot of the programs were intended to help in the way you mentioned, and I think a lot of those administering it were sincere. Unfortunately they were usually understaffed andover worked. Some of the recipients took hold, goe educated and trained and made a good life for themselves ad future generations. Some saw, More babies = bigger check = equals more coke and booze. Their descendants populate the urban ghettos of our land and are mindlessly reproducing us out of a Republic.

XikoPlavi · May 4, 2023

Song still gives me chills

SilentStalkr · May 4, 2023

Maggot said:
I tried reading some of her stuff but it was harder than Faulkner. Having studied philosophy I'll try that one if I can find it. Mybe we should set up a book exchange sub heading under Good Reads thread.

We used to have a book exchange club. Not sure whatever happened to it. Unfortunately, two of the members are no longer with us.

91Eunozs · May 4, 2023

XikoPlavi said:
Song still gives me chills

Two points…. Great reminder that Neil Peart never played with less than 100% intensity and dedication, and Geddy Lee is possibly the only rocker who has gotten better looking as he enters old age! LoL…. One of my favorite bands growing up.

Re: Ayn Rand, big fan, but can’t go all-in on her philosophy; probably because I didn’t grow up in communist Russia like she did, so my loathing of communism, while deep-seated and nearly fanatical in its own right, is based on observations from a life of travel and work vs. ”living in it” as she did.

From that perspective, I tend to cut her some slack for her over-the-top views.

I didn’t take much away from it the first time I read Atlas Shrugged back in the mid 80s, but reading it though 20 or so years later was eye opening for me… I appreciated her prescience a lot more with a bit more understanding under my belt.

Of her works, I still like Anthem the best though…maybe I’m just a shallow simpleton though.

And never confuse self-interest with selfishness…easy to cross that line of course, but too many folks tend to attribute the latter when an honest reflection would reveal simple jealousy at another’s success. Very easy for our population to fall into that trap when the entirety of our public education and social systems is built around an agenda of victimhood.

And on the flip side, for some, it’s not enough to succeed…someone else must fail in order to ‘win’ whatever role they’re living. That’s just sad to me…what a waste of potential.

At any rate, personally I think we can learn a lot from reading Ayn Rand…we should spend more time teaching and debating her view points rather than some of the crap I see in my kid’s syllabi from school.

anon · May 4, 2023

“If a man is called to be a street sweeper. He should sweep streets even as a Michelangelo painted , or Beethoven composed music or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all hosts of heaven and earth pause to say;

Here lives a great sweeper who did his job well ".

Funny, how so many overlook her extolling the virtues of the competent, with many of the characters she develops.

She's not alone in that ideal.

ManUtdManiac · May 5, 2023

fpgt72 said:
Lets see how this goes.

I think a little personal background on how I came to read her is in order, and will explain the thread a bit.

I had see memes with her quotes here and there over the years, spent the 10sec to read them and thought, yup. Then I joined here a bit ago. Originally wanted to do the long range thing, but a standby generator took that money and now I am thinking I am really too old for any real game. At one time I did quite a few games, but I just can't move like I once did, I tried bowling pins but that was just a bore, so now just shoot out back, and the odd starling here and there. So I have come to skim new posts and really hang out in the pit.

Down there more then a few threads had memes with her quotes and such.....ok darn it I will just read her. What to read, well "the" book is Atlas Shrugged.....good night that is a big'en. But I did it, sometimes it could have moved faster, other times I re read a section 3-4 times, it was that interesting.

If you count books finished this year I have read:

Atlas Shrugged
The virtue of selfishness
Anthem
Philosophy who needs it

All of those Rand. I did also read it was a gift after someone found out I was on this kick.

Amusing Ourselves to death.

I have found I enjoy talking about her views on about everything. I think I might find some here that might enjoy it as well. Perhaps this thread will make someone do what I did, pick up one of her books. I knew nothing of her book, no plot no underlying anything, nothing about Atlas. I was blind going in, and that might have been a good thing, zero clue what it was about.

Just hit Chap 18 on Philosophy one thing said in that book, a book that is speeches and papers written by here mainly in the 70's.

There is something that is interesting in that book that I just read this morning.

Words to the effect:

People sense something has gone wrong, they don't know what. This is the price they pay for being the silent and deaf majority. Americans are anti-intellectual, and with the current examples no wonder why. The do however place great value on education and that is now being shaken.

This was written IIRC in 1972. I would love to know what she would say about the world today.

There is another part in this book where a person wrights her a letter asking just what can one man do?

She says talk, don't preach just talk. Even if that is saying I don't agree. There is value in talking there is no value in keeping quiet. If you are silent you agree.

Perhaps that is what I am doing in todays digital world, talking. The folk I hang out with work and home generally have the same mindset as I. There are a few lefties around, yes even in a cop shop, and we have our little discussions back and forth. However they are not as much fun anymore, he is starting to see the light, just like most lefties that can actually think.

Lets see how this goes.

People who idolize Rand prolly never held or gained any success in the private sector. It’s a moonbat view of capitalism. Every manufacturing capitalist concern relies heavily on govt influence and intervention.

Awful writer. Contrived view of ‘us vs them’ with no real sense of the dirty complicity between corporations, govt and abuse of citizens.

To anyone who thinks otherwise, look at Monsanto and the generations of family they willingly and knowingly poisoned and killed from cancer by polluting water and river ways.

Selfishness means zero sum and when it comes to big Corp, you’re getting the fucking zero.

I love it when govt pensioners rage against Communism and socialism. Fine, give me back my money!

rhsc · May 5, 2023

I read Ayn Rand as a young man and like many of you, found her novels both entertaining and eye-opening. As I've grown older, my enthusiasm for Rand has tempered somewhat, but I still believe her core message is correct: be responsible for your own actions and your own welfare and never, ever try to force another man to serve your will. Following those precepts could probably eliminate a great deal of evil in the world. Somewhat ironically, considering Rand's disdain for religion, that's not entirely dissimilar to the Christian admonition in Matthew 7:12 to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

So Ayn Rand certainly had her flaws, but you could do a lot worse looking for a starting point to an examination of the consequences of human interactions. She easily beats Karl Marx.

Coincidentally, I just came across an interview conducted by John Stossel with a young woman that's running for President of Guatemala who is very much a Libertarian and cites Ayn Rand as one of her influences. You might enjoy listening to this -

Bender · May 5, 2023

IMHO, She has sophomoric tendencies ideas, great sounding platitudes to use as quotes but somehow comes up empty with actual solutions.

Now read Starship Troopers by Heinlein and let me know your thoughts lol.

AngryKoala · May 5, 2023

Do they make books like these for younger children? Ones in which they can read and digest?

fpgt72 · May 5, 2023

lash said:
This sounds a lot like the definition of selfishness to me.

In order to love oneself one must understand that self and accept it for what it is or make the appropriate changes in that self so that it is worth loving. This is a sort of selfishness in that it requires one to focus upon the self. The same applies to your interactions with others. Without an empathy to try and understand that person within reason, one cannot truly love another.

She hits this pretty hard in Atlas. I guess I should revise the title to say there could be spoilers in here as I am about to go into one of the key "lessons" of that book.

The entire interaction with James and Cheryl. James thinks love should just be given, not loved for who he is, or what he has done, but just himself. But he does not get that what makes you yourself is everything you do and think. This is what gives you value. I know how that sounds, but it is accurate. Cheryl came to him because he was "James Taggert", what she did not know is everything he claimed to be was a lie, that was not the person she fell in love with. The meat suit is just that an empty meat suit, when the brain is something else that meat suit means nothing. Her wedding day should have told her that something was wrong. In the end she learns that Dagny was really the one that was the beautful person behind all those amazing things. The exchanges between Cheryl and James are just hard to read, they are so heavy. She then goes to Dagny and she finally puts 2 & 2 together. It is just too much for her to deal with and it ends not in a good way. Then James the small person he is wants to "cry on Dagny's shoulder" that is not going to happen, Dagny knows what happend.

Those are a lot of words, to say I really agree with you. "Selfishness" is a virtue, like she said. Why is it seen as a bad thing....because like most things today no one knows the real meaning anymore. Words mean things....or at least they use to.

Kein Mitleid · May 5, 2023

ManUtdManiac said:
People who idolize Rand prolly never held or gained any success in the private sector. It’s a moonbat view of capitalism. Every manufacturing capitalist concern relies heavily on govt influence and intervention.

Awful writer. Contrived view of ‘us vs them’ with no real sense of the dirty complicity between corporations, govt and abuse of citizens.

To anyone who thinks otherwise, look at Monsanto and the generations of family they willingly and knowingly poisoned and killed from cancer by polluting water and river ways.

Selfishness means zero sum and when it comes to big Corp, you’re getting the fucking zero.

I love it when govt pensioners rage against Communism and socialism. Fine, give me back my money!

Some regulation is fine but it is out of control.

There are buildings in many industrial areas which are empty and remain that way because absolutely no one wants to take on an open ended liability. EPA or state run environmental simply dictate to the new owner of the building that they will remediate until the state is satisfied, doesn’t matter the cost and of course the person who pays it is not the person who polluted in most cases, just the unlucky person who is currently holding the bag.

There is a building near me empty for 30 years because the prior owner ‘may’ have spilled motor oil. It’s currently inhabited by homeless who use it as a place to shoot drugs.

fpgt72 · May 5, 2023

Maser said:
I will never understand why my fellow Libertarians are so obsessed with her. She literally said that Libertarians would be the death of this country.

You need to remember the state of the country when she said this. It was very different. The democrat party is not the same party it was during JFK's time. Do you really think he would go for this stupidity? Even if you don't like him you know it does not.

Same with the Libertarian party, it has changed as people have changed.....same again with the R's.

In her time it really was the dope smoking hippy party, and she had zero use for that group of people, that is one thing you take away really early after you read some of her papers. She just despises that element, I would say it would be a toss up between that and the commies. I really think she hates the "hippy" more then the commies, as the hippy is a wasted chance, the commie is just flat evil.

fpgt72 · May 5, 2023

Maggot said:
Good distinction.

Thats what happened in the 60's. Regardless of the underlying intent of Johnson, I think a lot of the programs were intended to help in the way you mentioned, and I think a lot of those administering it were sincere. Unfortunately they were usually understaffed andover worked. Some of the recipients took hold, goe educated and trained and made a good life for themselves ad future generations. Some saw, More babies = bigger check = equals more coke and booze. Their descendants populate the urban ghettos of our land and are mindlessly reproducing us out of a Republic.

I can see how you could think that, but I can't agree. I see Johnson as the change to what we have now.

I see all of those "programs" as nothing more then to "get people on the .gov cheeze". And I think those at the top of the Johnson admin knew that once you get those people in your pocket, you have them forever and they will always back you. I don't know if it is true or not, but when talking about a given minority and voting he was to have said, if they are going to vote lets make sure they vote for us. Like I said not sure if it is true or not, but from what I know of the man, yea I can see it happening. I have a very dim view of the man and that is before he picked his dogs up by the ears.

fpgt72 · May 5, 2023

XikoPlavi said:
Song still gives me chills

Once I found out that book is what inspired that song I read the book. I have been a HUGE Rush fan for years....going back to their hayday in the 70's and 80's. You had country guys, Zepplin guys and Rush guys. We all had that circle from the can of chew with Jack in it back in high school....stupidity.

A great many of Rush's songs are just fantastic and tell you something, fantastic words. Listen to Subdivisions, or Limelight and the words in there. If you just think of the words to Limelight it will give you chills.

fpgt72 · May 5, 2023

rhsc said:
I read Ayn Rand as a young man and like many of you, found her novels both entertaining and eye-opening. As I've grown older, my enthusiasm for Rand has tempered somewhat, but I still believe her core message is correct: be responsible for your own actions and your own welfare and never, ever try to force another man to serve your will. Following those precepts could probably eliminate a great deal of evil in the world. Somewhat ironically, considering Rand's disdain for religion, that's not entirely dissimilar to the Christian admonition in Matthew 7:12 to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

So Ayn Rand certainly had her flaws, but you could do a lot worse looking for a starting point to an examination of the consequences of human interactions. She easily beats Karl Marx.

Coincidentally, I just came across an interview conducted by John Stossel with a young woman that's running for President of Guatemala who is very much a Libertarian and cites Ayn Rand as one of her influences. You might enjoy listening to this -

I had that marked for a week and just watched it last night with the wife. I poked her in the ribs and said...see there is the book again. You need to give it a read.

That girl in the video has been on a few others I have seen over the years as well.

fpgt72 · May 5, 2023

Kein Mitleid said:
Some regulation is fine but it is out of control.

There are buildings in many industrial areas which are empty and remain that way because absolutely no one wants to take on an open ended liability. EPA or state run environmental simply dictate to the new owner of the building that they will remediate until the state is satisfied, doesn’t matter the cost and of course the person who pays it is not the person who polluted in most cases, just the unlucky person who is currently holding the bag.

There is a building near me empty for 30 years because the prior owner ‘may’ have spilled motor oil. It’s currently inhabited by homeless who use it as a place to shoot drugs.

I have two stories along the line....and oddly enough one is about a gun club.

The use to have a range that at the time it was setup was out in the boonies. The city slowly moved out that way and now there are houses sitting on top of a big hill/cliff type thing. This sheer cliff type thing even in MO. Next thing you know there is a house on top of that hill and the city makes them stop shooting there. Issue is all the lead. No one can do anything with it without huge issues from the EPA. So it sits. Not long ago they got a special waver to shoot air rifles on the old range but that is about it.

There is a gas station that failed not far from my house. Sat empty for years, right on the highway so prime real estate, but out in the sticks so not worth all the issues that goes with an old gas station. A company bought it and just built a new building right on top of it. They did not use shovel one. If they open the door you can still see the old gas station inside, roof, pump islands and all. That was the way around it.

I lied one more.

KCIR, a drag strip here. City bought it and wanted to make a park, not so fast says the EPA you need to clean it all up first. There is a swing set in the old parking lot.

fpgt72 · May 5, 2023

Bender said:
IMHO, She has sophomoric tendencies ideas, great sounding platitudes to use as quotes but somehow comes up empty with actual solutions.

Now read Starship Troopers by Heinlein and let me know your thoughts lol.

View attachment 8134982

Personally I think she does give solutions. Get the hell out of the way is the solution.

Maggot · May 5, 2023

fpgt72 said:
I can see how you could think that, but I can't agree. I see Johnson as the change to what we have now.

I see all of those "programs" as nothing more then to "get people on the .gov cheeze". And I think those at the top of the Johnson admin knew that once you get those people in your pocket, you have them forever and they will always back you. I don't know if it is true or not, but when talking about a given minority and voting he was to have said, if they are going to vote lets make sure they vote for us. Like I said not sure if it is true or not, but from what I know of the man, yea I can see it happening. I have a very dim view of the man and that is before he picked his dogs up by the ears.

You ddint read clearly. I only said tha many of the individuals who worked i those programs were sincere, not knowing they had been duped by the administration.

vinniedelpino · May 5, 2023

rhsc said:
I read Ayn Rand as a young man and like many of you, found her novels both entertaining and eye-opening. As I've grown older, my enthusiasm for Rand has tempered somewhat, but I still believe her core message is correct: be responsible for your own actions and your own welfare and never, ever try to force another man to serve your will. Following those precepts could probably eliminate a great deal of evil in the world. Somewhat ironically, considering Rand's disdain for religion, that's not entirely dissimilar to the Christian admonition in Matthew 7:12 to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

So Ayn Rand certainly had her flaws, but you could do a lot worse looking for a starting point to an examination of the consequences of human interactions. She easily beats Karl Marx.

Coincidentally, I just came across an interview conducted by John Stossel with a young woman that's running for President of Guatemala who is very much a Libertarian and cites Ayn Rand as one of her influences. You might enjoy listening to this -

I'd skip the applebee's meal deals and make reservations somewhere nice for this one.

fpgt72 · May 5, 2023

Maggot said:
You ddint read clearly. I only said tha many of the individuals who worked i those programs were sincere, not knowing they had been duped by the administration.

Got ya, yes I agree that "underlings" likely thought they are doing good. Those at the top however.....

Enough Said · May 5, 2023

OREGUN said:
Parroting things you’ve heard about a place you’ve never lived. Lol.

I live farther north and farther west than you do. Trust me, I know.

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“This is pity,” he thought, and then he lifted his head in wonder. He thought that there must be something terribly wrong with a world in which this monstrous feeling is called a virtue.” The Fountainhead

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