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View thread Contact supportAnybody get a QuickBooks invoice payment request from Liberty Optics today?
He might be processing payments using the customers previously submitted credit card number, or he's hoping that someone isn't aware of what's going on and will pay the current invoice amount.In all seriousness though, I received a payment request for an invoice that only had a down payment originally yet shows another payment in the same quantity yesterday. Not seeing a pending charge on any of my cards though. Super odd.
He might be processing payments using the customers previously submitted credit card number, or he's hoping that someone isn't aware of what's going on and will pay the current invoice amount.
Well now that’s something I haven’t thought of the entire time this thread has been going.He might be processing payments using the customers previously submitted credit card number, or he's hoping that someone isn't aware of what's going on and will pay the current invoice amount.
In all seriousness though, I received a payment request for an invoice that only had a down payment originally yet shows another payment in the same quantity yesterday. Not seeing a pending charge on any of my cards though. Super odd.
Well, they aren't going to look for him unless or until criminal charges are filedIm amazed the weaponized autists haven't found him yet. Disappointment actually.
I expected a grid location and target package by now.
Perhaps you'd post the phone number for others?I just received a phone call from the Montana Office of Consumer Protection for a follow up with my complaint that I filed online. Apparently there's a stack that the gentleman is going through. So if you haven't filed a complaint, do so. No clue what they'll do, but wanted to let you guys know they're looking into it.
This is NOT funny Kiba, I almost went to his website to order oneYep, for the new AMG 1-10 I ordered from Scott. Killer price, no sales tax, and I don't have to buy a rifle I don't want with it like from those guys at Euro Optic.
Should be here next week.
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This is NOT funny Kiba, I almost went to his website to order one
I have not followed this thread for quite a while but just curious, surely someone else on the Hide had to personally know Scott, was friends and went over to his house to watch football games, shoot with him, etc.??? Has there been anyone who personally knew him and hung out with him step forward to explain... well, anything?
Telling us his Username or Name might help others he scammed.Quasi-related, I just spoke with a certain city PD about a different case. I was only one of two people to file a police report with a different person that was running a fraud scheme. I purchased a scope from this guy that he never shipped, and he used a fake ID as proof (I now require video/facetime when doing higher cost deals); apparently he normally defrauded people from guns, but I was the highest dollar amount he defrauded. I was one of only two people that filed a report, but after digging into financials the PD found out he defrauded another ~30 people who are now being contacted. If the two of us didn’t they’d never know to take up the case and this guy would still be out stealing from people.
It took almost two years for them to take up the case but they found the guy due to the financials and are pressing felony charges.
It was slow but this guy would have kept making his living with theft if the two of us didn’t file a report.
I think you missed his point.Telling us his Username or Name might help others he scammed.
Thanks for the TLDR summaryGo back to post 905 and read from there. Scott and his wife were working for the city in Florida, Scott got canned after repeated clashes with his manager, went to a lawyer for an age discrimination wrongful termination lawsuit, case was dropped for a settlement. In the middle of all that he took out a six figure cash advance against the business, paid a big chunk of it back, then stopped paying, and now the cash advance place is going after him too.
One of the members here ended up knowing Scott through the city job in Florida but did not know or make the connection it was the same Liberty Optics Scott.
As far as I know nobody has kept digging and tracked him down and got an explanation out of him, or if they have they haven't shared it. I eased up on the research when my credit card company gave me the final refund, but I know others weren't so lucky with getting a chargeback.
Link to your Youtube channel?Thanks for the TLDR summaryJust caught up from post 905... Oddly enough, I live near where Scott used to live down here, but he told me he moved back to Montana after I asked if he'd like to get together for coffee. He told me he couldn't stand this area which I have grown fond of, my guess is he didn't like it because he was having issues with his day job, said he hated the traffic which for me (coming from Denver area and previous to that LA (Los Angeles not Lower Alabama
) is nothing. My daughter had a job in Destin and commuted every day, it was a pain on some days especially if there was an accident as there's only one major road through the whole area (Hwy 98). I continued to buy things from him up until September last year and it was delivered from Vortex but only a mount and not a scope, his invoices give his Montana address but since all the items were drop shipped (from Vortex) no way of knowing where Scott actually was, sounds like at some point he came back to the Panhandle. Not that big of a deal because it appears Scott is long gone and wherever he once was likely doesn't matter. Still shocked that after years of faithfully helping out the community he decides to screw so many, he has certainly put a black eye on the small business guy trying to get started.
As good as all the Hide sleuthing has been it is doubtful any of us will ever know the "real" story, but there are some good theories and some entertaining theories in this threadIn the meantime I'll be on the lookout for the guy from post 905.
I have considered from time to time trying to start a small side business selling sport optics, but after this fiasco I don't think I stand a chance, so I'll stick to my reviews of scopes and maybe my new YouTube channel can generate something.
Oh right, would help if I would actually post some content. I have several videos but I'm such a perfectionist I haven't posted them yet, with my ADHD I've realized I ramble way too much which is why I do better at written reviews cause I can focus on what's important but in video I start talking about everything under the sun, literallyLink to your Youtube channel?
I actually think you have a good point here as I think you are correct, if a bunch of Hide members knew Scott was in trouble I think they would have helped come to his rescue, unfortunately, for a lot of guys they are too embarrassed to admit they made some mistakes and are struggling. I am reminded of the end of the movie "It's a Wonderful Life" after Jimmy Stewarts character (George Bailey) thinks about taking his own life after some misplaced money (by his uncle) puts him in jeopardy he is visited by an Angel (Clarence) who allows him to see what life would have been like had he never lived and when he's allowed to return to the real world he runs home to find that his wife got word out to friends and family who all pitched in to bail him out and the movie ends when George picks up a book from a table where everyone was putting their money and valuables and inside the book is a note written by Clarence that reads, "Remember, no man is a failure who has friends". A sobering reminder for many of us when we are down in the dumps...What I find terribly ironic about this whole situation is that if Scott had started a “go fund me” of some sort many of us who had purchased scopes from him would have gladly donated or put items for sale on his behalf to help him in his time of need and he likely would have had more money than he made off with.
Literally a run-on sentence broOh right, would help if I would actually post some content. I have several videos but I'm such a perfectionist I haven't posted them yet, with my ADHD I've realized I ramble way too much which is why I do better at written reviews cause I can focus on what's important but in video I start talking about everything under the sun, literallyOnce I post content I will update my signature as well as my main review page that is also linked in my signature.
At first I was thinking “what?” And then I got it, my whole life feels like a run on sentenceLiterally a run-on sentence bro
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I was contacted also, The guy said that he has about 15 other persons on the complaint, and also has GREAT praise the Vortex for helping out in this time.Pretty much had all my info except the price which I told him.I just received a phone call from the Montana Office of Consumer Protection for a follow up with my complaint that I filed online. Apparently there's a stack that the gentleman is going through. So if you haven't filed a complaint, do so. No clue what they'll do, but wanted to let you guys know they're looking into it.
Phone was from Caller ID - Montana Office of Consumer Protection, Helena, MT, 406-444-4500
He might be processing payments using the customers previously submitted credit card number, or he's hoping that someone isn't aware of what's going on and will pay the current invoice amount.
PDFs attached
I actually think you have a good point here as I think you are correct, if a bunch of Hide members knew Scott was in trouble I think they would have helped come to his rescue, unfortunately, for a lot of guys they are too embarrassed to admit they made some mistakes and are struggling. I am reminded of the end of the movie "It's a Wonderful Life" after Jimmy Stewarts character (George Bailey) thinks about taking his own life after some misplaced money (by his uncle) puts him in jeopardy he is visited by an Angel (Clarence) who allows him to see what life would have been like had he never lived and when he's allowed to return to the real world he runs home to find that his wife got word out to friends and family who all pitched in to bail him out and the movie ends when George picks up a book from a table where everyone was putting their money and valuables and inside the book is a note written by Clarence that reads, "Remember, no man is a failure who has friends". A sobering reminder for many of us when we are down in the dumps...
Just because the Montana Consumer division is closing their case doesn't mean a MT county/state, or even federal LE agency isn't continuing with a criminal case. It would really help if the scammed kept in contact with the county sheriff and MT state AG's office- because the squeaky wheel gets the grease.update regarding LO received a letter from the state of Montana regarding the complaint that I filed. they have CLOSED my case because Vortex stepped up to the plate and made it right. So inother words Scott gets off of case.Stan
How did vortex take a bath? Did liberty sell the scopes for less than he was paying vortex?PDF 4-1 is self-explanatory. He sounds like a real gem. He tells his boss to "Leave me alone about my schedule." It's a wonder it took so long to fire him.
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The thing I had trouble understanding is how his business model could work at all. It did not. He basically relied on increasing future sales to fund the purchase of committed inventory.
I wonder what other Ponzi schemes he had going on? And how many times he has done this in "other lives?"
I wonder if the Parks department has done a full inventory of its stuff and also hard reconciled its accounts payable?
He was always a fraud.
George was shown to be a stand up dude. He always managed his commitments and put his reputation ahead of his personal needs and wants. He never made excuses. He had a sound business model and faced his customers face to face. He was fair but tough as well. As a result he attracted the same people and attracted the best woman in town who married him and supported him. The honeymoon scene when he gets "home" shows her backbone and toughness as well as how she honors him, and is tribute to the writing in the show. As an aside Jimmy Stewart poured all his WWII PTSD into that movie and emerged "cured." Jimmy refused to sell war bonds and led bomber missions in Europe when most bombers did not come back. He is clearly the man behind the Captain America myth.
George's crisis is one of character and the loss of his reputation. And his misplaced perception of same. He filled that bank many times over and it was his wife who made that withdrawal. But he still needs to fire his addled cousin or put him in another job. And have a clean work area policy. And then George has to go to war with Potter.
Scott was no George. He was no Jimmy.
I have read this whole thread again, end to end. There is a lot of blame to go around.
Vortex has taken a bath on this. Hopefully they learned they to vet reps better. The Franchise model has some very good guidelines on how to use the rubber gloves when evaluating franchisees. Hopefully this will not be the nail that causes them to go out of business at some point.
And those of you on here who jumped on the "deal" also bear responsibility for abetting this fraud. You assisted Scott into conning others. You were the layers in the Ponzi scheme. Eventually the music ends and you have no chair to sit on. And then you blame someone else.
No, he’s just not understanding the situation correctly.How did vortex take a bath? Did liberty sell the scopes for less than he was paying vortex?
If vortex took a loss due to deceptive business practices, they should be able to file (state law dependent). The persons that were made whole by vortex would then become witnesses.update regarding LO received a letter from the state of Montana regarding the complaint that I filed. they have CLOSED my case because Vortex stepped up to the plate and made it right. So inother words Scott gets off of case.Stan
How did vortex take a bath? Did liberty sell the scopes for less than he was paying vortex?
I do not have any inside knowledge so my perspective is based on what’s in this thread. I own a Vortex product and I think they are a good company.At the minimum Vortex is out:
1. Burdened Labor to respond to this issue. Likely hundreds of hours across the firm.
2. Opportunity costs and executive mindshare of same.
3. Pricing power on the market due to Scott underselling MAP and MSRP.
4. Vortex reputation with their other distributors. If you have a choice to push Vortex or Brand X, which do you do? You can't compete with a Ponzi scheme. This has some damage on their channels.
And then:
1. Actual cash costs to make customers whole either by honoring Scott's "commitments" and/or pulling items out of the supply chain to do so.
2. Packing and Shipping costs for all the above.
3. Year end throughput, sales, deliveries, and impact on final numbers.
At a minimum, their COGS just went up for this year by at least $100K if not more. That's probably $1M in extra sales to make that up. Or they take it out of R&D or Marketing next year.
These things have lingering effects. A healthy firm with contingencies can weather it. A firm in a growth mode or a contraction mode can't without serious decision making.
Sounds like Vortex is handling this right. I am not knocking their response.
If vortex took a loss due to deceptive business practices, they should be able to file (state law dependent). The persons that were made whole by vortex would then become witnesses.
At the minimum Vortex is out:
1. Burdened Labor to respond to this issue. Likely hundreds of hours across the firm.
2. Opportunity costs and executive mindshare of same.
3. Pricing power on the market due to Scott underselling MAP and MSRP.
4. Vortex reputation with their other distributors. If you have a choice to push Vortex or Brand X, which do you do? You can't compete with a Ponzi scheme. This has some damage on their channels.
And then:
1. Actual cash costs to make customers whole either by honoring Scott's "commitments" and/or pulling items out of the supply chain to do so.
2. Packing and Shipping costs for all the above.
3. Year end throughput, sales, deliveries, and impact on final numbers.
At a minimum, their COGS just went up for this year by at least $100K if not more. That's probably $1M in extra sales to make that up. Or they take it out of R&D or Marketing next year.
These things have lingering effects. A healthy firm with contingencies can weather it. A firm in a growth mode or a contraction mode can't without serious decision making.
Sounds like Vortex is handling this right. I am not knocking their response.
Vortex offered to honour the price that Scott had sold and taken payment for but not delivered.
Jeebuz, Prezactly.I'm going to say in the end Vortex is actually out Nothing, in fact they are even better off.
All that B.S. about pricing power and so on and blah blah, everybody including Vortex knows their MSRP is way out of touch with reality and they do that on purpose so folks can "get a great deal" which is a well proven strategy, backed up by tons of research into consumer buying trends.
Vortex was NOT shipping any scopes until they had been paid for them.
Scott was making a profit on each sale, just a much smaller profit than other stocking dealers.
Vortex offered to honour the price that Scott had sold and taken payment for but not delivered. That actually cost them no more than if they had been paid by Scott and shipped them out. Essentially they just agreed to sell direct to a select group of customers for a little bit over dealer cost and around the same cost as they will sell stuff to "specials" or when they are doing things like deals on ExpertVoice etc.
Remember Scott was actually a big part of getting Vortex scopes pushed into the tactical shooting market, by offering great deals he got folks to buy Vortex that would have otherwise bought something else. Me included, if I had to pay MSRP list price for Vortex stuff, well nope, going with someone else.
Scott had a good stable business model that worked for over 20 years, right up until he wound up into trouble with finances elsewhere in his life and used his business to guarantee loans from a really bad to deal with type of company. That was when it all fell apart, pretty much within about a year, his business just didn't have the kind of cash flow to pay off those kinds of usurious loans, pretty much no business does.
Scott thought he was smart and could outsmart the devil, but then found out he was the same kind of fool as anyone that makes the deal with the devil. How he handled it was about as bad as you could go, and he ruined his reputation for life.
Vortex spent a fair bit of manpower and executive time to fix the situation.
BUT if you actually were to take a look at it, the amount of reputational boost for their company, brand name awareness, customer brand name loyalty, word of mouth sales, and new interest in their brand was huge. They would have probably had to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in advertising to get anywhere close to the same results.
I know some folks blather on about how it's the job of the customer to pay maximum prices for the profit of the dealers and company.
Total B.S.
If some executive in a company said it's our job to pay the maximum amount we can for our supplies and raw materials, how long would they have their jobs? They would laugh at the thought and go on about about how it's their duty to get the lowest possible price.
Customers have a responsibility just the same to find the lowest possible prices on what they want for their own benefit.
I like Vortex products, I have a big pile of them.
If I am able to find excellent deals going forward, I'll keep buying them.
When I can find excellent deals, I'll point friends, family and acquaintances towards any great deals on Vortex.
Observers can only comment on the details that they know about.You don't have all of the details on what Vortex did to make people whole. I will leave it at that.
Jeebuz, Prezactly.![]()
I seriously doubt that Vortex "lost any money" on fulfilling any of LO's orders. Looks to me like Vortex actually increased their profit (by LO's profit margin, which was probably small). However, all manufacturers want to ship in bulk, not onesie twosies. So yes, each individual order cost Vortex more to handle than if they had shipped pallet(s) of scopes to LO. But, did Vortex "lose" any money ? I seriously doubt it.
You can't buy the kind of positive press that Vortex got from "doing the right thing".
I'm not slagging on Vortex in any way, shape or form. Just the opposite. The way they handled this was exemplary/brilliant. They are absolutely to be commended for looking out for not only a few customers, but really, an entire industry.
Their actions should go down in the annals of history of the industry as to how to turn lemons into lemonade for everyone.
Of course another layer would be if Vortex completed orders for guys that were unsuccessful with their chargeback. That could be something costly but would be a legit boost for their reputation.
In no way did I mean to imply that Scott was anything close to a George/Jimmy, my point was that when we are in trouble we ought to swallow our pride and reach out and not spiral into the abyss as it appears Scott did in this situation.George was shown to be a stand up dude. He always managed his commitments and put his reputation ahead of his personal needs and wants. He never made excuses. He had a sound business model and faced his customers face to face. He was fair but tough as well. As a result he attracted the same people and attracted the best woman in town who married him and supported him. The honeymoon scene when he gets "home" shows her backbone and toughness as well as how she honors him, and is tribute to the writing in the show. As an aside Jimmy Stewart poured all his WWII PTSD into that movie and emerged "cured." Jimmy refused to sell war bonds and led bomber missions in Europe when most bombers did not come back. He is clearly the man behind the Captain America myth.
George's crisis is one of character and the loss of his reputation. And his misplaced perception of same. He filled that bank many times over and it was his wife who made that withdrawal. But he still needs to fire his addled cousin or put him in another job. And have a clean work area policy. And then George has to go to war with Potter.
Scott was no George. He was no Jimmy.
from my understanding Scott was actually "selling" scopes for a lower price than vortex was selling to him as a distributor.
From conversation while tracking down if my last few orders were placed or just billed, and observing the sudden price incentive at the endWhere did that information come from?
Ok, so he didn't screw you during the original time he was in running a business...I had a credit with him ... he honored the price difference later.
Ok, and he was going to tell you his side of a functioning business / or his side of a con based off when you had this conversation...I talked with Scott candidly ...
right up until he wasn't...He was pretty upfront
and that was the functional model for years and why he had to do the website link / pricing the way he did to not piss off OEMs and maintain MAP agreements..pretty decent volumes in runs, months in advance..
This is how all companies work...hurt brick and mortar or other online retailers.
expert voice gets some money from the deal as well so no difference.In that sense, it was a very similar system to how ExpertsVoice or mil discounts work, but without the requirements to prove membership, plus a little off the top for Scott.
He wouldn't have been doing it for years up until the end if he wasn't..And he was definitely making money on each optic sold when we started discussing the credit, what his pricing was and what he was pricing stuff at, which became an issue with a Snipershide pricing deal over the summer minus the sizeable credit.
Again you are talking about the time frame that he was still running above board...Even as late as late July, it was completely apparent he had no intention of running off with the money or doing anything shady.
last month here he didnt mind giving extra discounts... vortex never got the orders thoughWe talked at length about getting an SVIII in, whether it would be worth doing that over another RIII, what reticle options were coming and worth waiting for, and at no point did he push me into jumping on the RIII deal. I eventually committed to an RIII because I couldn't get the reticle I wanted on the SVIII, which was part of the batch that got turned upside down when he walked with the money.
And he was totally candid that he wouldn't accept the big chunk of money I was offering because it would have been a little below his acquisition cost for the optic, taking money out of his wallet. Not really a concern if you don't intend to fulfill the orders.
You are like I was until the end. You spent thousands of dollars with him and received scopes after waiting, and you suggested friends to him and they received scopes, etc etc... so good guy / great price / can't beat himWe don't really know, but I'm much more in favor of the idea that he needed to come up with money for lawyer fees when he lost his lawsuit against his job for wrongful termination - something I'm sure he was certain he would win - and didn't have capital or income stream to float that bill. So, he used the money he was holding to place the RIII orders and then realized how screwed he would be, panicked at the potentially years prison term for wire fraud+more, and went into hiding.
I don't own any guns- they all went down in a boating accident, so I'm immune to scumbags like him simply because I don't have a need. I'm just here for the hot MILF.