I'm going to load up 10 rounds at 25 off and shoot a 10 shot group at 100 yards and see what they do. Get a little more data before I do anything else. If those 10 shots go under 1 MOA I'm just gonna run it.
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So now you have to ask yourself if paying $0.40 a bullet is worth the .1 of elevation and .1 of wind @ 600yds over the 75gr BTHP which can be bought for $0.20 a bullet and is very accurate and easy to tune. I run those at 2930.
look for ES under 30 with N=10 to 20. You really need Sd of 7.5 to hold vertical at distance in .223I'm going to load up 10 rounds at 25 off and shoot a 10 shot group at 100 yards and see what they do. Get a little more data before I do anything else. If those 10 shots go under 1 MOA I'm just gonna run it.
Point taken. I'm definitely no expert in wind calling, although I am pretty decent based on my location and having to shoot in the wind all the time. I'm in EO and the wind blows constantly. But I'm not 1 mph good, as you say more like 3 mph on average.I just ran the numbers for the 75 ELDM. My best accuracy load is 2930 along with the BTHPs.
75 ELDM at 2930fps, 1000yds
8 mph - 1.73mrad
10mph - 2.08mrad
Error - .35mrad
So that's a .1mrad reduction in error at 1000. That's somewhat meaningful to your point. That's about 3 and a half inches. That could help some edge hits.
But... what if you're group size was .3 or .4 mrad bigger? That's a .15 to .2 spread addition on 25%? 50%? of your shots vs the .1 reduction on 5% of long bomb targets in the field during a days match.
Point taken.
I'm going to try the 80.5 bergers as I'd like to have a little more BC for my bolt trainer rifle since I'll be shooting it out to 1K with it.
If it makes you feel any better I'm getting a 223AI barrel done and putting alll my eggs in the 88gr ELD-M basket.I get what you're saying. I just had zero intent on shooting anything but the 75 eldm, so I kinda fucked up and put all my eggs in 1 basket. They just give you the best ballistics from an 8 twist with the BC/speed combo over anything else. Plus they're cheap, so not paying a premium, to get the best ballistics over the more expensive sierra/bergers 80s, with a lower BC and less speed at that.
I haven't tried any other bullets yet. Pretty determined to make the 75 ELDMs work. I've ran them up to 3050fps with N540, but they shoot better at 2975, which is why I'm basing the numbers at 2975 for the 75s. Don't really know where the 80s would shoot, but just hoping it'd be around 2900 with good accuracy with N540.
I can't shoot anything over 80s because I only have an 8 twist. Kinda wishing I got a 7 or 7.5 now to shoot the 85-90s. But oh well. Just have to make them work and shoot the barrel out, and get a 7 twist after that. Lesson learned.
Not mathematically.Worrying about and extra .2mil at6001000 might seem like nothing but when you are starting from a .5 mil disadvantage then it all adds up.
Ok, but practically it does make a difference.Not mathematically.
The G1 bc for the 75 gr BTHP is .400 not 355.Ok, but practically it does make a difference.
As above I shot a few matches using a very average (.27 G1 BC) bullet and the difference between that and a "proper" cartridge was significant.
I know the 75BTHP is much better (still only .355 G1) than the 62SPBT but it's still an example of how it does all add up.
Add to that the higher BC bullets will retain more energy so should be easier to spot impacts/misses at range also.
I understand what you are saying in your posts, but from what I've seen overall wind drift is the most important figure not just the error margin the extra BC gives you. Most people I see at events will hold edge of plate regardless of the wind conditions, and many people aren't even trying to work out how the terrain will be effecting their bullet.
Add to that the wind being at a different angle than what you are seeing, or even worse a switchy tail/head wind then overall wind drift becomes important in practicse.
Using the same load above, shooting in changing winds, when it's raining at distance, trying to spot misses was near impossible, and even the hit's were very hard to see, and were often only heard.
I get that this is for his trainer so the 75BTHP are probably going to be the best bang for the buck training bullet regardless, but even on a flat range unless he is shooting at electronic F-class targets, the better bullets will pay off.
If he cant get anything other than the 75BTHP, 73ELD-M, 77SMK etc, class of bullet to shoot then of course he should just be happy enough shooting that class of bullet. But trying to squeeze every bit of performance is worth it IMO.
The listed bc for the 75bthp is .395 but litz list .357 and many other people use .355.The G1 bc for the 75 gr BTHP is .400 not 355.
Trust me, I know what you all are feeling. As long range shooters we are programmed to be seduced by the best BC. There's a lot of feeling and emotion in the above posts. But if you actually lay the math out and rationally think about it. It proves that a better BC by itself will not get you better performance. It needs to be at a threshold velocity. And that's where the straight 223 struggles. The three points of the triangle are accuracy, speed, and ballistic coefficient. You need all three. I know some guys that are shooting 88s at 2850. I think that's about as good as you're going to get. I haven't seen their groups but assuming their accuracy is there that definitely warrants shooting in place of the 75 BTHP. That is more or less a 6br. But the 80.5gr at 2850 doesn't. That bullet needs to go faster to make up the difference.
The math bears out the performance difference. If you can truly show the difference I'd be interested to see it.
75 BTHP is not consistent in flight at long ranges, it doesn't matter what the BC says.The listed bc for the 75bthp is .395 but litz list .357 and many other people use .355.
Lol, you're not wrong. But if you're going to apply reality to that bullet, you need to do it to all the other ELDM bullets as well so these comparisons we're making aren't biased. And while it might be an inflated Hornady BC I really don't see it being worse than Sierra's two decade old 77 SMK at .380The listed bc for the 75bthp is .395 but litz list .357 and many other people use .355.
Math isn't the be all end al, otherwise everyone in PRS would be shooting 6CM with 110 Atips.
Hey man, it may not seem like it, but I'm rooting for you. I think if you can get the speed of the 80.5's up there... accurately, it will be a good solution and "math out" to be worth it.I should be able to run the 80.5 around 2900 accurately from a 28" tube and N540, but we will see here shortly. If I can get it to 2900, at my low elevation of 500 ft, that's get me to right at 1K before I go trans sonic. The 75g ELDM at 2975 gets me to 1050. The 75 ELDM still beats it in drop/drift also, but it is what it is. I definitely don't want to shoot a .400 BC bullet from it when I'm trying to shoot 1K, that just doesn't math out at all, and puts me around the 800 yard mark before going trans sonic. I'm willing to pay the little extra for Berger's if they'll shoot a bit better and a lot more consistent than the 75g ELDMs. So stay tuned, I may have 1500 ELDMs up for sale here soon haha.
Valid points regarding the BR. My thing with the hornady 75 bthp is who knows if those are going to shoot will either. Hornadys seem to be hit or miss. 77 smk is tried and true but more money and as you said don't have a great bc. To me that's where the 80 smk comes in. It's only slightly more money than the 77s but the bc is quite a bit better. Also I see no reason to shoot an AR mag length bullet in a bolt gun. Bergers are a bit more money than I'd like to personally spend for a .224 bullet. Starline brass and sierra bullets is going to be the sweet spot for me for a balance between price and performance for 223. When you start getting into lapua brass and bergers 6br starts making more sense. Not to mention the stupid accuracy and lower achievable SD/ES.Hey man, it may not seem like it, but I'm rooting for you. I think if you can get the speed of the 80.5's up there... accurately, it will be a good solution and "math out" to be worth it.
It's interesting, as I think about this discussion, that the ballistic realities and what makes a certain bullet worth it are different at my DA than you east coast brothers. We really do get two different kind of performances out of the same bullets. Seems to partially explain some of the disagreement you see about various bullets and cartridges.
The only contrary thing I would say, is at what point does it still make sense to shoot a straight 223 competitively? If you're paying 6mm bullet prices, have no Alpha or Lapua(anymore) brass to choose from, severely disadvantaged on splash....at what point do we just turn these suckers into 6BRs? !
Not trying to be passive aggressive, seriously, did you reshoot those groups with 5rd'rs multiple times to see if they repeat? I have some 75ELDM groups that look like that but I couldn't get repeatable likewise accuracy73 & 88 ELDM's have shot well for me. 75's & 80's have sucked ass in 224V, 22GT 223W bolt, & AR 223 W.
I honestly haven't found a good load for the 85.5 yet in the GT whereas 88ELDM was easy. Haven't given up on them yet.
80.5 has been excellent.
77TMK pretty good.
The one that pleasantly surprised me has been the 77 RDF G1 .454/ G7 .228 It has been easy to find a load for in both AR's and Bolt guns.
Here is a first attempt comparison in 8T 223W 26" Bartlain bolt gun.
No load development. This was first loads comparing Staball Match to 2520 & 77TMK to 77RDF.
FWIW 25.3 of 2520 behind 77 SMK or RDF is lights out in my 18" AR also.
View attachment 8404916
My next build will definitely be a 6 BR. I just did the 223 because I already had the action. Should've went with a 7/7.5 twist for the 223, but live and learn. Either way the little 6 BR beats the shit out of a 223 at 1K. And the brass options are also a no brainer.Hey man, it may not seem like it, but I'm rooting for you. I think if you can get the speed of the 80.5's up there... accurately, it will be a good solution and "math out" to be worth it.
It's interesting, as I think about this discussion, that the ballistic realities and what makes a certain bullet worth it are different at my DA than you east coast brothers. We really do get two different kind of performances out of the same bullets. Seems to partially explain some of the disagreement you see about various bullets and cartridges.
The only contrary thing I would say, is at what point does it still make sense to shoot a straight 223 competitively? If you're paying 6mm bullet prices, have no Alpha or Lapua(anymore) brass to choose from, severely disadvantaged on splash....at what point do we just turn these suckers into 6BRs? !
We'll get to you eventually if we go far enough east...My next build will definitely be a 6 BR. I just did the 223 because I already had the action. Should've went with a 7/7.5 twist for the 223, but live and learn. Either way the little 6 BR beats the shit out of a 223 at 1K. And the brass options are also a no brainer.
And I'm in Eastern Oregon by the way, not the east coast. I just so happen to be in about the lowest elevated place in Eastern Oregon haha. My load development range is 500, my long range out to 1400 yards is right at 1000ft. The only time I get above that is elk/bear hunting in the blues at 5K.
Iv got a stash that should make 24 grains a pop last.Varget and Berger bullets. Sounds cheap
Guys use the 85.5s and 88 ELDs in 22BR/GT/Dasher and seem to be happy with them.Iv got a 223 barrel to hopefully shoot 85.5s for specifically 1 day match use. I’m not at the point in my life where I can dedicate the time to be competitive, so I figured a .26 g7 and cheap reloading made more sense for a mid pack shooter.
Plus I’m sick of breaking in 6 creed barrels. I should have just built a BR years ago but live and learn. Maybe after 5k rounds of 223 I’ll appreciate going to a 6br. By then hopefully kids in school means I can sneak away for a little more practice. Until then I’ll continue to stack 105 hybrids up for that day to come.
Anyways I have Starline brass, n140, varget, xbr and some bergers ready to go. Barrel is a 7 twist. Curious if anyone is actually shooting the 85.5 for PRS style shoots?
That's mighty fast for a vanilla 223, do you think the N140 is giving you better speed than say Varget, or is it just a hot load?I have been running n140 and 88eldms in my 223 at 2830 but it’s really hot and need to lower the charge. Primer pockets are starting to get loose on the 4th firing. It’s a killer load though and as mentioned was equal to my 6br with 108 eldms.
What brass have you been using?I haven’t used varget, it’s just a really hot load. I was initially ok replacing brass every couple firings since it’s so cheap but I don’t really have the need for that much speed. Dropping the velocity 100fps only adds a couple inches of drift at 800 yards with a 10mph cross wind.
So what powder were you using then? 2830 is absolutely screaming for a straight 223I haven’t used varget, it’s just a really hot load. I was initially ok replacing brass every couple firings since it’s so cheap but I don’t really have the need for that much speed. Dropping the velocity 100fps only adds a couple inches of drift at 800 yards with a 10mph cross wind.
That's right, you did say that earlier.N140
That's good to know. With Lapua being 3x the cost of Starline I was thinking I'd go for the later.Current batch is on its 4th firing I believe and some of the pockets are getting loose but all still useable. I could just feel less resistance on some when I was priming the batch.
I bought this stuff when it was around $50-$60 a box I think. I didn’t care if I was going through it but times have changed. If this starline brass works out I will be very happy. I ended up with 2k pieces, that should last me a long long time. So far I have formed about 100 223ai and have 300 more starline loaded up for next Mondays prairie dog shoot that will be formed into 223ai. Its shooting every bit as good as the lapua thus far.
Are you shooting both a 223AI and a 223?So far I have formed about 100 223ai and have 300 more starline loaded up for next Mondays prairie dog shoot that will be formed into 223ai. Its shooting every bit as good as the lapua thus far.
Do you mind sharing the seating depth with the 80.5’s? ThanksI was running Varget in that test. I think the better groups at the beginning are a factor of inconsistent inputs. Meaning that it is very difficult to shoot small groups, and losing concentration shows towards the end of a session. In my opinion, the issue with some of Hornday's bullets has to do with the weight differences. I was shocked at how far out the ELD's were. I have to see if I can dig up those pictures.
Sorry for the late reply, I've been out of the country for the last three weeks. I'm seating them at 0.025. Again, test for yourself don't trust my info.Do you mind sharing the seating depth with the 80.5’s? Thanks