I'm going to load up 10 rounds at 25 off and shoot a 10 shot group at 100 yards and see what they do. Get a little more data before I do anything else. If those 10 shots go under 1 MOA I'm just gonna run it.
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223 and Berger 85.5g LR Hybrid?
- Thread starter kyotekiller25
- Start date
The main point is well taken. The best use for a .223 trainer is trying to save money on consumables. Once you get into shooting ~1MOA vertical at 700+ yards with a .223, however, you really need gucci-tier components, and you're not saving significant money. Catch 22.
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In the spirit of relating the perceived performance gain of these bullets, here's a more nuanced look at the wind difference. If you look at the wind drift you'll see .2mrad difference. People see that and think they're gaining .2 of forgiveness. But they aren't. Just like elevation, you need to dial the right dope on the gun for the range, you just need to call the right wind hold. Doesn't matter if it's 2.3 or 2.5mrad hold. If you're holding the wrong mil hold your forgiveness is the width of the target, not the drift of the round. So it's more like elevation "danger space" when you're shooting UKD by mil ranging. The wind advantage is quantified by the wind budget the BC provides. Not the drift number for a 10mph wind.
Here's an example. It's damn hard to call the wind within (give or take) 1mph. 3 mph is a little more realistic for most folks. So if your variation on your call is 3 mph, what does that extra BC do for you?
75BTHP at 2930fps, 1000yds
8 mph - 2.11mrad
10mph - 2.55mrad
Error - .44mrad
80.5 at 2842fps, 1000yds
8 mph - 1.91mrad
10mph - 2.31mrad
Error - .40mrad
Error forgiveness that extra BC gets you - .04 mrad
So it is like elevation, the extra speed/ BC won't fix having the wrong range or wind speed.
Here's an example. It's damn hard to call the wind within (give or take) 1mph. 3 mph is a little more realistic for most folks. So if your variation on your call is 3 mph, what does that extra BC do for you?
75BTHP at 2930fps, 1000yds
8 mph - 2.11mrad
10mph - 2.55mrad
Error - .44mrad
80.5 at 2842fps, 1000yds
8 mph - 1.91mrad
10mph - 2.31mrad
Error - .40mrad
Error forgiveness that extra BC gets you - .04 mrad
So it is like elevation, the extra speed/ BC won't fix having the wrong range or wind speed.
look for ES under 30 with N=10 to 20. You really need Sd of 7.5 to hold vertical at distance in .223
I just ran the numbers for the 75 ELDM. My best accuracy load is 2930 along with the BTHPs.
75 ELDM at 2930fps, 1000yds
8 mph - 1.73mrad
10mph - 2.08mrad
Error - .35mrad
So that's a .1mrad reduction in error at 1000. That's somewhat meaningful to your point. That's about 3 and a half inches. That could help some edge hits.
But... what if you're group size was .3 or .4 mrad bigger? That's a .15 to .2 spread addition on 25%? 50%? of your shots vs the .1 reduction on 5% of long bomb targets in the field during a days match.
75 ELDM at 2930fps, 1000yds
8 mph - 1.73mrad
10mph - 2.08mrad
Error - .35mrad
So that's a .1mrad reduction in error at 1000. That's somewhat meaningful to your point. That's about 3 and a half inches. That could help some edge hits.
But... what if you're group size was .3 or .4 mrad bigger? That's a .15 to .2 spread addition on 25%? 50%? of your shots vs the .1 reduction on 5% of long bomb targets in the field during a days match.
Point taken. I'm definitely no expert in wind calling, although I am pretty decent based on my location and having to shoot in the wind all the time. I'm in EO and the wind blows constantly. But I'm not 1 mph good, as you say more like 3 mph on average.
So far I'm seeing an ES of around 10 at 24.7g N540. I don't know what that translates to SD, but the last 2 outings with 24.7 I've had an ES of 7 and 10 with 3 and 5 shot groups.
Like I said going to shoot a 10 shot group at 100 and get some more accuracy/ES data before I change bullets.
With that said, if the 75g ELDMs dont do what I want or need, I'm going to try the 80.5 bergers as I can get them locally for $42. The 75g ELDMs I paid $32. I'm sure I can always sell my 15 boxes of ELDMs if I have to and replace what I can with the 80.5 Bergers.
I do have some 73g ELDMs and 75g BTHP Match, but they are for the AR, as I'd like to have a little more BC for my bolt trainer rifle since I'll be shooting it out to 1K with it. The AR is just for out to 600 yards and more of a truck/calling rifle for dogs.
just kiddingI do think you'll see a performance advantage at long range with the 80.5s just because it's going to be a more consistent Burger bullet that will probably group better.
Yah I don't doubt it. Bergers are a lot more consistent than Hornadys...I was just hoping I could get away with the Hornys.
I'll keep ya guys posted either way.
Appreciate the info and thoughts.
I'll keep ya guys posted either way.
Appreciate the info and thoughts.
If it makes you feel any better I'm getting a 223AI barrel done and putting alll my eggs in the 88gr ELD-M basket.
I plan to shoot the 75 BTHP as a cheaper alternative, but am really hoping to get 88s to 2850+.
Having shot 223 myself and watching others, you really want as much of an advantage as you can get.
75BTHPs 69SMKs etc, are very very hard to spot misses and in the wind get really pushed around.
Worrying about and extra .2mil at 600 might seem like nothing but when you are starting from a .5 mil disadvantage then it all adds up.
I've shot a ew matches with my 223 using some terrible bullets (62gr SPBTs) and when guys were holding edge of plate and 400 I was holding over 1mil way off the plate. Add in hard to spot misses then you really are stacking the odds against yourself.
Ok, but practically it does make a difference.
As above I shot a few matches using a very average (.27 G1 BC) bullet and the difference between that and a "proper" cartridge was significant.
I know the 75BTHP is much better (still only .355 G1) than the 62SPBT but it's still an example of how it does all add up.
Add to that the higher BC bullets will retain more energy so should be easier to spot impacts/misses at range also.
I understand what you are saying in your posts, but from what I've seen overall wind drift is the most important figure not just the error margin the extra BC gives you. Most people I see at events will hold edge of plate regardless of the wind conditions, and many people aren't even trying to work out how the terrain will be effecting their bullet.
Add to that the wind being at a different angle than what you are seeing, or even worse a switchy tail/head wind then overall wind drift becomes important in practicse.
Using the same load above, shooting in changing winds, when it's raining at distance, trying to spot misses was near impossible, and even the hit's were very hard to see, and were often only heard.
I get that this is for his trainer so the 75BTHP are probably going to be the best bang for the buck training bullet regardless, but even on a flat range unless he is shooting at electronic F-class targets, the better bullets will pay off.
If he cant get anything other than the 75BTHP, 73ELD-M, 77SMK etc, class of bullet to shoot then of course he should just be happy enough shooting that class of bullet. But trying to squeeze every bit of performance is worth it IMO.
The G1 bc for the 75 gr BTHP is .400 not 355.
Trust me, I know what you all are feeling. As long range shooters we are programmed to be seduced by the best BC. There's a lot of feeling and emotion in the above posts. But if you actually lay the math out and rationally think about it. It proves that a better BC by itself will not get you better performance. It needs to be at a threshold velocity. And that's where the straight 223 struggles. The three points of the triangle are accuracy, speed, and ballistic coefficient. You need all three. I know some guys that are shooting 88s at 2850. I think that's about as good as you're going to get. I haven't seen their groups but assuming their accuracy is there that definitely warrants shooting in place of the 75 BTHP. That is more or less a 6br. But the 80.5gr at 2850 doesn't. That bullet needs to go faster to make up the difference.
The math bears out the performance difference. If you can truly show the difference I'd be interested to see it.
73 & 88 ELDM's have shot well for me. 75's & 80's have sucked ass in 224V, 22GT 223W bolt, & AR 223 W.
I honestly haven't found a good load for the 85.5 yet in the GT whereas 88ELDM was easy. Haven't given up on them yet.
80.5 has been excellent.
77TMK pretty good.
The one that pleasantly surprised me has been the 77 RDF G1 .454/ G7 .228 It has been easy to find a load for in both AR's and Bolt guns.
Here is a first attempt comparison in 8T 223W 26" Bartlain bolt gun.
No load development. This was first loads comparing Staball Match to 2520 & 77TMK to 77RDF.
FWIW 25.3 of 2520 behind 77 SMK or RDF is lights out in my 18" AR also.
I honestly haven't found a good load for the 85.5 yet in the GT whereas 88ELDM was easy. Haven't given up on them yet.
80.5 has been excellent.
77TMK pretty good.
The one that pleasantly surprised me has been the 77 RDF G1 .454/ G7 .228 It has been easy to find a load for in both AR's and Bolt guns.
Here is a first attempt comparison in 8T 223W 26" Bartlain bolt gun.
No load development. This was first loads comparing Staball Match to 2520 & 77TMK to 77RDF.
FWIW 25.3 of 2520 behind 77 SMK or RDF is lights out in my 18" AR also.
The listed bc for the 75bthp is .395 but litz list .357 and many other people use .355.
Math isn't the be all end al, otherwise everyone in PRS would be shooting 6CM with 110 Atips.
75 BTHP is not consistent in flight at long ranges, it doesn't matter what the BC says.
I should be able to run the 80.5 around 2900 accurately from a 28" tube and N540, but we will see here shortly. If I can get it to 2900, at my low elevation of 500 ft, that's get me to right at 1K before I go trans sonic. The 75g ELDM at 2975 gets me to 1050. The 75 ELDM still beats it in drop/drift also, but it is what it is. I definitely don't want to shoot a .400 BC bullet from it when I'm trying to shoot 1K, that just doesn't math out at all, and puts me around the 800 yard mark before going trans sonic. I'm willing to pay the little extra for Berger's if they'll shoot a bit better and a lot more consistent than the 75g ELDMs. So stay tuned, I may have 1500 ELDMs up for sale here soon haha.
Lol, you're not wrong. But if you're going to apply reality to that bullet, you need to do it to all the other ELDM bullets as well so these comparisons we're making aren't biased. And while it might be an inflated Hornady BC I really don't see it being worse than Sierra's two decade old 77 SMK at .380
Hey man, it may not seem like it, but I'm rooting for you. I think if you can get the speed of the 80.5's up there... accurately, it will be a good solution and "math out" to be worth it.
It's interesting, as I think about this discussion, that the ballistic realities and what makes a certain bullet worth it are different at my DA than you east coast brothers. We really do get two different kind of performances out of the same bullets. Seems to partially explain some of the disagreement you see about various bullets and cartridges.
The only contrary thing I would say, is at what point does it still make sense to shoot a straight 223 competitively? If you're paying 6mm bullet prices, have no Alpha or Lapua(anymore) brass to choose from, severely disadvantaged on splash....at what point do we just turn these suckers into 6BRs? !
Valid points regarding the BR. My thing with the hornady 75 bthp is who knows if those are going to shoot will either. Hornadys seem to be hit or miss. 77 smk is tried and true but more money and as you said don't have a great bc. To me that's where the 80 smk comes in. It's only slightly more money than the 77s but the bc is quite a bit better. Also I see no reason to shoot an AR mag length bullet in a bolt gun. Bergers are a bit more money than I'd like to personally spend for a .224 bullet. Starline brass and sierra bullets is going to be the sweet spot for me for a balance between price and performance for 223. When you start getting into lapua brass and bergers 6br starts making more sense. Not to mention the stupid accuracy and lower achievable SD/ES.Hey man, it may not seem like it, but I'm rooting for you. I think if you can get the speed of the 80.5's up there... accurately, it will be a good solution and "math out" to be worth it.
It's interesting, as I think about this discussion, that the ballistic realities and what makes a certain bullet worth it are different at my DA than you east coast brothers. We really do get two different kind of performances out of the same bullets. Seems to partially explain some of the disagreement you see about various bullets and cartridges.
The only contrary thing I would say, is at what point does it still make sense to shoot a straight 223 competitively? If you're paying 6mm bullet prices, have no Alpha or Lapua(anymore) brass to choose from, severely disadvantaged on splash....at what point do we just turn these suckers into 6BRs? !
Not trying to be passive aggressive, seriously, did you reshoot those groups with 5rd'rs multiple times to see if they repeat? I have some 75ELDM groups that look like that but I couldn't get repeatable likewise accuracy
My next build will definitely be a 6 BR. I just did the 223 because I already had the action. Should've went with a 7/7.5 twist for the 223, but live and learn. Either way the little 6 BR beats the shit out of a 223 at 1K. And the brass options are also a no brainer.Hey man, it may not seem like it, but I'm rooting for you. I think if you can get the speed of the 80.5's up there... accurately, it will be a good solution and "math out" to be worth it.
It's interesting, as I think about this discussion, that the ballistic realities and what makes a certain bullet worth it are different at my DA than you east coast brothers. We really do get two different kind of performances out of the same bullets. Seems to partially explain some of the disagreement you see about various bullets and cartridges.
The only contrary thing I would say, is at what point does it still make sense to shoot a straight 223 competitively? If you're paying 6mm bullet prices, have no Alpha or Lapua(anymore) brass to choose from, severely disadvantaged on splash....at what point do we just turn these suckers into 6BRs? !
And I'm in Eastern Oregon by the way, not the east coast. I just so happen to be in about the lowest elevated place in Eastern Oregon haha. My load development range is 500, my long range out to 1400 yards is right at 1000ft. The only time I get above that is elk/bear hunting in the blues at 5K.
I was able to get out last weekend and try the sierra 80 smk loads. This was with 24.5g of varget and about .020 off the lands. Well known high power load. Also for comparison I will put up the pictures of my typical groups with the hornady 80 eld. Orange targets are the hormadys. I will be sticking with sierra.
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I just did a 10 shot group at 100 today with the 75 eldms. The first 6 made a ragged hole, and the last 4 opened it up to what you see. As it is, 8 went into .5" with the 2 lower right making it .85" It's about as good as I can do with these 75g ELDMs. Not great, not horrible, but I'll take it for what I'm doing. Still might try the 80.5 Bergers just to see how much more accurate/consistent they'll be. I think anytime you can get 10 shots sub MOA, that's pretty alright though, especially for Hornadys haha.
I'll shoot the rest of my hornadys but I won't buy anymore. I've shot the 77 smk with 3 different powders now and they've all shot excellent at 2.260" oal. Jumping a mile. The 80 smk seem to shoot just as good and my sd/es was low teens. 24.5g of varget put them at 2750 fps out of a 24" barrel. Could probably go hotter but I don't really see a need. I can clean the plate rack at 600 yards with the 77s at the same speed so the 80s will only be better. I'll take that and have better brass/barrel life.
I tried 85.5's with StaBall Match and 8208. Got good accuracy from 8208. Loaded at 2.500"
2711fps from 22.7gr of 8208. Flattening primers.
2630 from StaBall Match. Couldn't remember how much I used. Accuracy wasn't mind blowing either.
Varget just wasn't going to happen given how deep that bullet had to be to clear 2.5". The long nose/ high bc comes at a cost
Just got finished trying 80gr SMKs. 25gr Varget loaded to 2.545"(10 thou jump) great accuracy and 2930fps. Starting to flatten primers as well.
Running the shade tree WEZ I get this:
75gr BTHP .400 G1, 2930fps, $0.14 apc
1000yds, 8mph & 10mph
8.25mrad, 2.1/2.55: .45mrad between 2 mph
80.5gr Berger .440 G1, 2930fps, $0.40 apc
1000yds, 8mph & 10mph
7.77mrad, 1.86/2.25: .39mrad between 2 mph
80gr SMK .460 G1, 2930fps $0.34 apc
1000yds, 8mph & 10mph
7.55mrad, 1.76/2.12: .36mrad between 2 mph
85.5gr .524 G1, 2711fps, $0.40 apc
1000yds, 8mph & 10mph
8.55mrad,1.71/2.06: .35mrad between 2 mph
2711fps from 22.7gr of 8208. Flattening primers.
2630 from StaBall Match. Couldn't remember how much I used. Accuracy wasn't mind blowing either.
Varget just wasn't going to happen given how deep that bullet had to be to clear 2.5". The long nose/ high bc comes at a cost
Just got finished trying 80gr SMKs. 25gr Varget loaded to 2.545"(10 thou jump) great accuracy and 2930fps. Starting to flatten primers as well.
Running the shade tree WEZ I get this:
75gr BTHP .400 G1, 2930fps, $0.14 apc
1000yds, 8mph & 10mph
8.25mrad, 2.1/2.55: .45mrad between 2 mph
80.5gr Berger .440 G1, 2930fps, $0.40 apc
1000yds, 8mph & 10mph
7.77mrad, 1.86/2.25: .39mrad between 2 mph
80gr SMK .460 G1, 2930fps $0.34 apc
1000yds, 8mph & 10mph
7.55mrad, 1.76/2.12: .36mrad between 2 mph
85.5gr .524 G1, 2711fps, $0.40 apc
1000yds, 8mph & 10mph
8.55mrad,1.71/2.06: .35mrad between 2 mph
Iv got a 223 barrel to hopefully shoot 85.5s for specifically 1 day match use. I’m not at the point in my life where I can dedicate the time to be competitive, so I figured a .26 g7 and cheap reloading made more sense for a mid pack shooter.
Plus I’m sick of breaking in 6 creed barrels. I should have just built a BR years ago but live and learn. Maybe after 5k rounds of 223 I’ll appreciate going to a 6br. By then hopefully kids in school means I can sneak away for a little more practice. Until then I’ll continue to stack 105 hybrids up for that day to come.
Anyways I have Starline brass, n140, varget, xbr and some bergers ready to go. Barrel is a 7 twist. Curious if anyone is actually shooting the 85.5 for PRS style shoots?
Plus I’m sick of breaking in 6 creed barrels. I should have just built a BR years ago but live and learn. Maybe after 5k rounds of 223 I’ll appreciate going to a 6br. By then hopefully kids in school means I can sneak away for a little more practice. Until then I’ll continue to stack 105 hybrids up for that day to come.
Anyways I have Starline brass, n140, varget, xbr and some bergers ready to go. Barrel is a 7 twist. Curious if anyone is actually shooting the 85.5 for PRS style shoots?
Guys use the 85.5s and 88 ELDs in 22BR/GT/Dasher and seem to be happy with them.
I'm getting a 223AI barrel done at the moment, plan to shoot 75gr BTHPs for cheap training (and probably a a mild load) then 88 ELDs for matches.
My theory is a 88gr ELD at 2800fps is basically the same ballistics as a 6br.
Running the numbers in Strelok an 88gr ELD doing 2800fps (223/223AI) will have he same retained energy and velocity at 850m, as a one at 1000m doing 3100fps (22GT/CM).
Kinda like a super trainer.
If it fails spectacularly then I'll still have a trainer than should have excellent brass life that I never have to do case prep on.
That's the plan at least.
I have been running n140 and 88eldms in my 223 at 2830 but it’s really hot and need to lower the charge. Primer pockets are starting to get loose on the 4th firing. It’s a killer load though and as mentioned was equal to my 6br with 108 eldms.
That's mighty fast for a vanilla 223, do you think the N140 is giving you better speed than say Varget, or is it just a hot load?
I haven’t used varget, it’s just a really hot load. I was initially ok replacing brass every couple firings since it’s so cheap but I don’t really have the need for that much speed. Dropping the velocity 100fps only adds a couple inches of drift at 800 yards with a 10mph cross wind.
I was using lapua, recently picked up some starline to test out since lapua prices have gone up so much.
The starline brass had more consistent weight over 20 cases than the lapua so I’m excited to do more testing to see how it compares.
The starline brass had more consistent weight over 20 cases than the lapua so I’m excited to do more testing to see how it compares.
So what powder were you using then? 2830 is absolutely screaming for a straight 223
N140, I’m out of town but will try to remember to get the powder charge when I get back.
I know I’m using mdt Poly 223 mags and seating all the way out. I ran this load in my tikka with PVA barrel and now in my origin with proof barrel. The proof is showing more pressure than the PVA barrel.
I know I’m using mdt Poly 223 mags and seating all the way out. I ran this load in my tikka with PVA barrel and now in my origin with proof barrel. The proof is showing more pressure than the PVA barrel.
That's right, you did say that earlier.
So you've been blowing the pockets out of Lapua brass? LOL you can't even find that stuff anymore
Current batch is on its 4th firing I believe and some of the pockets are getting loose but all still useable. I could just feel less resistance on some when I was priming the batch.
I bought this stuff when it was around $50-$60 a box I think. I didn’t care if I was going through it but times have changed. If this starline brass works out I will be very happy. I ended up with 2k pieces, that should last me a long long time. So far I have formed about 100 223ai and have 300 more starline loaded up for next Mondays prairie dog shoot that will be formed into 223ai. Its shooting every bit as good as the lapua thus far.
I bought this stuff when it was around $50-$60 a box I think. I didn’t care if I was going through it but times have changed. If this starline brass works out I will be very happy. I ended up with 2k pieces, that should last me a long long time. So far I have formed about 100 223ai and have 300 more starline loaded up for next Mondays prairie dog shoot that will be formed into 223ai. Its shooting every bit as good as the lapua thus far.
That's good to know. With Lapua being 3x the cost of Starline I was thinking I'd go for the later.
If the Lapua pockets were only lasting 4 or 5 reloads it must be hot.
My 223 shoots lights out (1/2 - 5/8 mpa) with a huge charge range (settled at 24gr) using 80gr ELDMs and xbr8028 at about 2800fps. 26", 7 or 7 or 7.5tw Bart (can't remember), and starline brass.
Sorry for the late reply, I've been out of the country for the last three weeks. I'm seating them at 0.025. Again, test for yourself don't trust my info.
Just some general thoughts reading through this thread.
1. 223 with heavies can absolutely be made to shoot with 6BRs/105s around 2800-2850. The BCs are nearly identical between the 85.5/88/90 SMK vs the 105s. I shoot 223 next to my 6BR regularly and can tell you the 223 is pretty much always within .1 of wind out to 1k, and often identical to the 6BR holds. 95% of guys shooting PRS can’t shoot that difference, I promise.
2. 50fps does not make a fucks worth of difference in the wind. If your goal is 2850+ with 85.5+ bullets, you should be more than happy with 2775-2800 and a much more reliable load.
3. Related to point #2, running 223s to the ragged edge of pressure is not only killing your brass but it’s killing your consistency. Once again, speed is not everything here. Take the lower node, I promise you won’t regret it and any loss in performance will be mitigated by the consistency you gain.
4. Easier said than done given it’s been unobtanium, but 4895 is truly the best powder for 223s with heavy bullets. N530 and N135 are close, followed by Varget (though you will definitely be in the lower velocity node with the latter). Benchmark, 8208, and even ARComp/TAC are just a hair to fast to get the speed without running it up close to pressure.
Lastly, it’s true that the 75-80gr options can be made to match the heavy bullets in terms of pure performance given the velocity advantage, however the heavies are always going to be considerably better in terms of target feedback and splash detection.
1. 223 with heavies can absolutely be made to shoot with 6BRs/105s around 2800-2850. The BCs are nearly identical between the 85.5/88/90 SMK vs the 105s. I shoot 223 next to my 6BR regularly and can tell you the 223 is pretty much always within .1 of wind out to 1k, and often identical to the 6BR holds. 95% of guys shooting PRS can’t shoot that difference, I promise.
2. 50fps does not make a fucks worth of difference in the wind. If your goal is 2850+ with 85.5+ bullets, you should be more than happy with 2775-2800 and a much more reliable load.
3. Related to point #2, running 223s to the ragged edge of pressure is not only killing your brass but it’s killing your consistency. Once again, speed is not everything here. Take the lower node, I promise you won’t regret it and any loss in performance will be mitigated by the consistency you gain.
4. Easier said than done given it’s been unobtanium, but 4895 is truly the best powder for 223s with heavy bullets. N530 and N135 are close, followed by Varget (though you will definitely be in the lower velocity node with the latter). Benchmark, 8208, and even ARComp/TAC are just a hair to fast to get the speed without running it up close to pressure.
Lastly, it’s true that the 75-80gr options can be made to match the heavy bullets in terms of pure performance given the velocity advantage, however the heavies are always going to be considerably better in terms of target feedback and splash detection.
