that's crazy. i was curious. 2k to CO $42-50, MA $85-105. UPS vs USPS is the cost range for each state. reminds me to post the 1k i have and dasher stuff
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Are Berger bullets really better?
- Thread starter tinker
- Start date
Barrel blanks, bacon, eggs, car registration it’s everything.
Pop that shit in a USPS flat rate, $20. I’m sure they're good projectiles and at the end of the day my father always said “my name is total” but paying the piper $100 for shipping is ass.
it is ass but if you find a similar or better projo at 42 cents to your door let us know because this was the best I could find this week unfortunately.
I started competing with hornady’s…Won a lot with them
Switched to bergers for a couple years…won more often, hit % went up
Went back to hornady for a couple years…still won but less often, hit % dropped a little, and i had more misses I knew wasn’t me
Went back to bergers…hit % went right back up…stuck with Berger’s for good after that
If you can shoot the difference, bergers will show the difference as you stretch the distance or start trying to consistently hit targets < 1moa
Especially across lot to lot consistency like has been mentioned above…I had a 2k count box of 108 eld’s that absolutely hammered, they shot right with Berger’s…neither 108 eld lot I had before or after that one equaled them though
If you’re shooting <70% at PRS type matches and missing 2 moa plates…it doesn’t matter what bullet you’re shooting
Switched to bergers for a couple years…won more often, hit % went up
Went back to hornady for a couple years…still won but less often, hit % dropped a little, and i had more misses I knew wasn’t me
Went back to bergers…hit % went right back up…stuck with Berger’s for good after that
If you can shoot the difference, bergers will show the difference as you stretch the distance or start trying to consistently hit targets < 1moa
Especially across lot to lot consistency like has been mentioned above…I had a 2k count box of 108 eld’s that absolutely hammered, they shot right with Berger’s…neither 108 eld lot I had before or after that one equaled them though
If you’re shooting <70% at PRS type matches and missing 2 moa plates…it doesn’t matter what bullet you’re shooting
Since Berger made the move the points on the 300 grain Hybrid OLGTM look like shit.If you just shoot 100 yards you wont notice it.But shoot 1500 yards and farther to 2900 or farther like are horrible. I should have stayed with Hornady ATips or Cutting Edge Lazers. I did not know Bergers quality had gone done so much.They used to have pretty bullets.All unifoirm and ice meplat/tips.Now they are knarly. So no they Are Not worth the money.
Try weighing those hornady then come back. Metplat deformation is like a 2% error in Bc. Having bullets with crazy variance in length and weight is a way more obvious and intrusive problem
If you’re seriously shooting past 1500 then tipping and sorting components starts to become justified as well which will easily take care of that.
I weigh and sort all bullets.Ive had less problems with A Tips mand Cutting Edge than these new Bergers by far.Since Berhger made their move their nstuff has suffered..And Im not they only one saying and seeing.
My old 30 cal 245 LRHT Ive had a hyear are not all fucked up like the Bulletys Berger is throwing out now.Ray Charles can see this..LOL
You’re the first person to ever report hornady weighing consistent. Thats a bit suspicious. Most people I know are shocked when I tell them to go weigh 25.
I’d still take the Berger over hornady but I’d be tipping regardless if I was shooting elr.
I think Ray Charles is doing your typing. . .
Berger's Quality has gone down. Thats not even debatable its so plain to see.The tips are so ragged .And they coist premium.Ive never had to tip a hornady A-Tip or a Cutting Edge Lazer. But I now have to tip these boxes of Bergers. Its a shame we pay so much money and then have to fix their bullets.
You’re the only person saying that. No one else on the internet thinks hornady is half as good. Did those turkeys from the podcast who pretend to shoot send you?
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Berger tipping quality has gone down. If you look closely at the LRHT like the 109s you can see all kinds of fucked up tipping. Now how that effects downrange performance, I have no idea but it looks like ass and would make you think it could shoot better if It was more uniform.
I don’t compete but I do shoot seriously out to 1200 yards. With the garmin chrono I am getting speeds a lot more often. Despite what I feel is a reasonably solid reloading process and match components, I’m still seeing way too much ES and SD.
After weighing some of the Hornady 140 eldm I am convinced they are the issue.
Price certainly is a factor but my main problem with Berger is availability. On this Hornady excels. I’m considering just having two different loads for my rifles, Berger when they’re available, Hornady when they’re not……
After weighing some of the Hornady 140 eldm I am convinced they are the issue.
Price certainly is a factor but my main problem with Berger is availability. On this Hornady excels. I’m considering just having two different loads for my rifles, Berger when they’re available, Hornady when they’re not……
Hornady are definitely all over the place as far as weight and the bergers i have been weighing are very consistent. With 105s I didn't see much of a performance difference (there was some but not HUGE) between bergers and hornady. I tried some barnes and I got mich worse results.
Now I am loading some hornady 140 match and berger 140 hybrids. Now I want to see how big of a difference between those. Not even going to waste my time on barnes MBs.
You can get berger bullets at any time. Just need to know where to look and maybe pay a little more. People complaining about components think everyone else should be on their timeline. Thats not how the world works.
What do you mean I cant buy this just released gaming system that has 100M preorder, 2 weeks after launch a few days before Christmas for the sale price?
There is a reason you can always source hornady bullets, even during a shortage.........
If any of you are following the 7 / 6.5PRC test that is being run….that I’ve posted data on….
Berger’s, SMK and Hornady ATIP’s…. Neither bullet flat out shot better than the other.
Bullets, powder, barrel… these three things all have to work together! Simple as that.
Style of rifling can effect the bc of the bullet as well.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Berger’s, SMK and Hornady ATIP’s…. Neither bullet flat out shot better than the other.
Bullets, powder, barrel… these three things all have to work together! Simple as that.
Style of rifling can effect the bc of the bullet as well.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
I'd say ATips are very different from standard Hornady bullets, higher quality and much higher price. I see more serious target shooters use Berger, Lapua, SMK and ATips, I don't see them using Hornady ELDM. Depends, I think, on how small a group your game demands.
Hi Frank. Are you doing any BC consistency testing or shooting over radar to see if there is substantial deviation?
I'll still happily use the Hornady ELD-M when I have a barrel that shoots them well. Up to midrange distances (700 and in), I don't think that 98% of us can shoot the difference. Obviously out at 1K and further, the more uniform the better.
I definitely love paying for Hornady ELD-Ms more than I do Bergers. That being said, I'll buy the Bergers in a heartbeat if they shoot better...and I do have some barrels that shoot the Bergers better.
I also like the ELD-M more as a coyote/pest control bullet than I do the Bergers. It just comes apart better immediately after entrance. The Bergers/SMK/Scenar can be devastating, but it usually takes deeper penetration before you see those results.
But do I think Bergers are more uniform (better)? Yes. Those and the new SMKs give me a CBTO variation on loaded rounds of about .001 ES. I often see .003 or better across the loading of a box of ELD-Ms. I've never done the weight testing.
I definitely love paying for Hornady ELD-Ms more than I do Bergers. That being said, I'll buy the Bergers in a heartbeat if they shoot better...and I do have some barrels that shoot the Bergers better.
I also like the ELD-M more as a coyote/pest control bullet than I do the Bergers. It just comes apart better immediately after entrance. The Bergers/SMK/Scenar can be devastating, but it usually takes deeper penetration before you see those results.
But do I think Bergers are more uniform (better)? Yes. Those and the new SMKs give me a CBTO variation on loaded rounds of about .001 ES. I often see .003 or better across the loading of a box of ELD-Ms. I've never done the weight testing.
No this test was strictly for pressure and velocity in a p&v barrel. It’s never been done for this cartridge and this is probably the hottest round right now in F Class.
Two years ago there was a test run with high pressure ammo and like four different bullets. A total of 320 rounds fired thru 12 different barrels. Seven barrels all had Saami spec 6 groove rifling and 5 barrels all had 5R rifling. Prior to the test we didn’t know we made all the barrels for the test. All in the same chamber and chamber reamer used and all the ammo loaded and tested by a bullet/ammo maker for a gun manufacturer. What was interesting in not that the 5R barrels edged out the accuracy over the 6 groove barrels but all the bullets fired out of the 6 groove barrels put a burr on the side of the bullets jacket. When I seen the pictures (yes they photographed every bullet fired right after it left the barrel!!!!!!!) the bullets out of the 6 groove barrels had a burr on the side of the jacket…I asked did this effect the b.c. Of the bullet? They said yes! I asked how much? They said as much as 5%. The negative or inconsistent the effect on the bc of the bullet will show further you go down range.
This now backed up data the Army seen and Hornady seen about 7 or so years ago but neither could figure out why at the time.
Going back to the OP’s original post…
I don’t think it’s fair to compare just one bullet from one maker to another maker in a given set up. Also some bullets from this or that maker do make better bullets. The Hornady 105bthp in my personal opinion and I’m not poking at Hornady in a bad way on this is just a good bullet. Not a great bullet. I’d take the 108Amax or the 107smk over the 105bthp.
Also I don’t see anyone talking about bullet diameters and consistency in them as well as barrel bore and groove spec’s. Think about it… you get bullets that are fat or that the diameters are not consistent even in the same lot and how those bullets will react with a given barrels bore specs.
Also I’ve shot in the same relay in the same conditions Berger 105’s and the old 107smk at a 1k yards. Guess what no difference seen.
Now I’ll take the new 107smk any day of the week or the 108s over the Berger 105’s. Sierra has tipping the bullet figured out. This makes for a much more consistent bullet and how it flies down range. In my 6mm’s I shoot the 107’s pretty much over anything else. My next go to bullets are the 110ATIPs.
Again though… in your given gun, chamber, barrel and powder…. You have to test to find out what bullet is shooting the best for your combination/set up but again though that doesn’t necessarily mean that a given bullet is bad.
I don’t think it’s fair to compare just one bullet from one maker to another maker in a given set up. Also some bullets from this or that maker do make better bullets. The Hornady 105bthp in my personal opinion and I’m not poking at Hornady in a bad way on this is just a good bullet. Not a great bullet. I’d take the 108Amax or the 107smk over the 105bthp.
Also I don’t see anyone talking about bullet diameters and consistency in them as well as barrel bore and groove spec’s. Think about it… you get bullets that are fat or that the diameters are not consistent even in the same lot and how those bullets will react with a given barrels bore specs.
Also I’ve shot in the same relay in the same conditions Berger 105’s and the old 107smk at a 1k yards. Guess what no difference seen.
Now I’ll take the new 107smk any day of the week or the 108s over the Berger 105’s. Sierra has tipping the bullet figured out. This makes for a much more consistent bullet and how it flies down range. In my 6mm’s I shoot the 107’s pretty much over anything else. My next go to bullets are the 110ATIPs.
Again though… in your given gun, chamber, barrel and powder…. You have to test to find out what bullet is shooting the best for your combination/set up but again though that doesn’t necessarily mean that a given bullet is bad.
Argumentative..Whats wrong did your woman put you back on the couch...
your name fits you well.Argue with out a clue.You should change it to Clueless. It fits you better. LOL
I agree only testing two bullets wouldn't show much. I actually tested more. I ran Barnes MBs and Lapua 105 Scenars. Just wrapping that up now.
I also decided that since I only have ever used SMKs in my 6.5 CM I would try hornady and berger as well and maybe some more for that too.
I did weigh all the bullets, made a nice little chart to show the bell curve of each but didn't like the graph so I am going to make another one that is different format.
I did measure the diameter and didn't see much variation at all, at least not enough that I felt it mattered. But you are making me wonder.
I will say we all know Berger's are better and more consistent. What I wanted to find out for myself is if there was enough of a difference that I could see that would justify the expense but also having to make more than one load. If I can't get much of a difference then for me, if I stick with bergers just because they are more consistent and I can't get more (which happens from time to time) I then have to go to another bullet.
of note, when I tested the 6mm, I used all Lapua brass. I have poop ton of once fired Hornady brass as I have shot a lot of factory ELDMs (and some friends have as well). My intial tests showed really poor ES & SD with that brass, so I am going to procure some Lapua for that as well to remove a variable.
I decided to share this info NOT for people like deathdismount who know everything, but newer folks who may find it helpful and those like myself who enjoy seeing the experience others have with similar products before using them and being able to compare their results.
@tinker thanks for posting. I find this information interesting as I’ve never had a Hornady bullet in any rifle best a Nosler CC, even the scratch and dent ones. I’m about to try some Sierra’s for grins, but haven’t messed with Berger’s because of the cost and availability not to mention I only have a 600 yard range to shoot on and would likely see very little difference.
As far as DBD goes, he’s here for comic relief only. It’s obvious he is like those ugly fat chicks protesting to get their abortion rights back who are in no danger of ever getting pregnant; he obviously needs to get laid, a lot, but his personality is preventing it. If you click on his profile, you will see an “Ignore” button. If you click on it, all of his posts disappear. It really cleans up a thread, especially after he gets going in one.
As far as DBD goes, he’s here for comic relief only. It’s obvious he is like those ugly fat chicks protesting to get their abortion rights back who are in no danger of ever getting pregnant; he obviously needs to get laid, a lot, but his personality is preventing it. If you click on his profile, you will see an “Ignore” button. If you click on it, all of his posts disappear. It really cleans up a thread, especially after he gets going in one.
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Different bullets for different applications.
Projectiles are also getting better and better, and its getting harder to make a bad choice.
There's also a lot of personal bias and to a wider extent discipline specific bias for specific projectiles, based on what is winning. I like Bergers because historically they have worked great for me, and have been very easy to develop a load for. For other people that may be Sierras, or Lapua (I've had great luck with Scenars), Hornady, etc.
For a lot of what us shooters on SH do, Hornady works just fine. I've had excellent results with Hornady out of some barrels and chambers. Other barrels and chambers don't seem to like them as much. While not my first choice, its silly for people to just completely dismiss Hornady - lots of other people have great success with them, especially with the type of shooting we on SH do.
that is pretty much my take.
I will say I just did some seating tests with the bergers in 140 gr and they were not so promising so far (but I haven't had time to test much yet).
Also I am learning the hard way how much better Lapua brass is over Hornady. I have a ton and planned on using it, when it was new it was decent, once fired....not so much so far comapred to the lapua.
My range is limited to 600 yards and paper targets. I often wonder if Bergers make any difference at that distance. If they do, can I even shoot the difference? I have doubts about that.
So I just have a bit of everything and try it all in an endless cycle of futility.
So I just have a bit of everything and try it all in an endless cycle of futility.
Biggest thing about Hornady is their inconsistency shows up at 700-800 and beyond.
I Don’t have these issues with Berger
I never extensively tested 6.5 bullets. However through the years of shooting 6.5, I found that in one rifle I used Hornady 143 ELD-X and 144 Berger Hybrid. Thought the years, the difference was miniscule, hardly worth mentioning, UNLESS, one was trying to shoot one hole (0.05 or smaller) groups. In practical use, those two were very close..
In my MPA barreled action (a very accurate little rifle) using 130 Berger VLD’s and 130 SierraMK’s, there virtually was no difference after shooting a thousand or more of each. Though the loads were different, once the load was settled, in practical use there was no difference. On a good day, I could put all shots into .3 or maybe a little less with either bullet at the same point of aim, with either bullet. As I age, those days are rapidly going away.
With issues in the 6GT’s I have been shooting, I have done far more testing and finally found something that worked. So, just going back to practical shooting (that would be shooting steel and having fun)
In my MPA barreled action (a very accurate little rifle) using 130 Berger VLD’s and 130 SierraMK’s, there virtually was no difference after shooting a thousand or more of each. Though the loads were different, once the load was settled, in practical use there was no difference. On a good day, I could put all shots into .3 or maybe a little less with either bullet at the same point of aim, with either bullet. As I age, those days are rapidly going away.
With issues in the 6GT’s I have been shooting, I have done far more testing and finally found something that worked. So, just going back to practical shooting (that would be shooting steel and having fun)
That's why I use ELDM in my 308 since the bullets just fall to the ground right around 700ish yards anyways.
Supplies, sponsorships, shooter representation (or lack of), scheduling conflicts, and probably more issues.
None-the-less, we know that inconsistent ammo does poorly in ELR matches. It’s hard to narrow down the factors when all we have is a proportion chart.
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