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Yep. Guilty. However, I have never liked the Tremor or Horus reticles. WAY too much shit going on to be remotely near practical and it blocks a TON of your FOV and background image. If you're a sniper, and you're perched up in a hide with your main weapon being a precision rifle and you need to range without coming off the glass, or moving around, making noise, etc... Sure, it makes sense, but even comp people can't practically use that reticle in a quick enough manner to justify owning it, other than to say, "I run Horus reticles..." so retards at the gun stores will think you're a sniper or pro shooter.I just think the sport and gear is evolving and we're evolving with it. At one point not too long ago a Tremor 3 was the new hotness and commanded a few hundred bucks more to block your view and guys were doing it lol.
I'm who @stanley_white was talking about... A couple of years back I might have fallen into that "I need more sub-tensions so I can be more accurate" group... now I'm like "WTF are all these lines for? no one needs this shit".
I have similar feelings. I tend to prefer the 7c in the G2 over the 7D in the G3. I find the reticle lines to be a little too thin/fine. I also agree the glass is better in the G3. A G3 with a 7c would be fantastic.Does anyone else find the Gen3's EBR-7D reticle visually complex/complicated (too many little hash lines to visually digest)..?
I recently switched back to a Razor Gen2, and even though I've only shot it a few times since the swap, the EBR-7C is so much easier on my brain/eyes and I've already experienced my shooting improve slightly without changing anything else. There's no doubt the Gen3's glass is better, there's no argument there, but for me, the slightly thicker/larger and less busy reticle in the Gen2 seems to be worth the trade-off.
l ran the Gen3 for nearly a year and during that span it sort of felt like my shooting had plateaued and I couldn't quite figure out why (since it's technically a "newer/better scope"). But now, after first shooting a Mark4HD PR3-MIL for a while, and then going back to the R2/7C (mostly for more robust build quality and better turrets), I feel like it's more likely than not that the R3 contributed to my stagnation, with the thinner/small-hashed/more busy EBR-7D reticle being the culprit.
@Scott_at_Vortex, any chance Vortex would ever do a Gen3 with a different, non-xmas-tree reticle, maybe something more "open" and less busy/complicated and a little thicker/easier-to-pick-up in the vane of Leupold's new PR3-MIL (which looks like sort of a thicker TT JTAC or ZCO MPCT1X with less hash marks IMO)..?
PR3-MIL:
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Where did you get that cover?The only trouble I'm having with mine is not getting to the range as often as I'd like.
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Where did you get that cover?
The Razor G3's glass has basically made it impossible for me to pull the trigger on buying a ZCO...
Please make a non-Xmas tree reticle Vortex, please?
I suspect that a JTAC or Mil-C clone would sell very well.i'd probably own a gen3 again if there was a non-tree version
Give me some MSR2, please...!I suspect that a JTAC or Mil-C clone would sell very well.
Saw that on the news also. BTW a primer and ammo company in south FL is about ready to come on line also
From the research that i've done it seems like most of the issues were with the earlier scopes and newer production optics have remedied the common complaints.Considering getting one.
It’s been out for some time…
Are all the issues mentioned in this thread somewhat pervasive?
An MPCT1X knock off is the move right now. All I ask is companies stop putting out the alternating reticle thing we got going on with the SKMR+.I feel the exact same way but unfortunately I need 2 scopes for ELR builds and because Vortex doesn't build a non tree reticle I'm going to buy ZCOs in 8x40 with the IMPCT 1 reticle.
I actually talked to a Vortex engineer about a non tree reticle and he said it cost about $60k to add a reticle change and there just wasn't enough demand for it.
On another note I finally got to spend some time behind a ZCO 27x last week zeroing and shooting groups for a friend's rifle and for that task I greatly preferred the G3.
Vortex please build us a G3 without a tree reticle!
I need Vortex to stop telling me about the labor pains and show me the baby.I actually talked to a Vortex engineer about a non tree reticle and he said it cost about $60k to add a reticle change and there just wasn't enough demand for it.
I decided to run a poll on reticle preference on my website. It is a little bit of a self-selecting sample, but so far it is roughly 2-to-1 in favor of tree-type reticles over hash-type reticles with exactly zero people favouring Horus-style grids. We'll see if that changes as more people vote.I need Vortex to stop telling me about the labor pains and show me the baby.
-Stan
I feel bad for that 69.2%.I decided to run a poll on reticle preference on my website. It is a little bit of a self-selecting sample, but so far it is roughly 2-to-1 in favor of tree-type reticles over hash-type reticles with exactly zero people favouring Horus-style grids. We'll see if that changes as more people vote.
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If that ratio persists and is representative of the broader customer base, it likely signifies that there is a market there for non-tree reticles. Hell, S&B did not have anything resembling a proper tree reticle in a precision scope (other than Gen2 XR in one model) until recently and they are still in business.I feel bad for that 69.2%.
It must be hard to go through life either knowing you are wrong or being ignorant of said wrongness.
-Stan
I'd honestly pay extra for a Razor G3 with a less complicated non-Xmas tree reticle.
I do not think it is going your way after a couple more days...I feel bad for that 69.2%.
It must be hard to go through life either knowing you are wrong or being ignorant of said wrongness.
-Stan
Oh I am supremely confident that I will lose as my value system points to products that most people wouldn’t buy.I do not think it is going your way after a couple more days...
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I do not think it is going your way after a couple more days...
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It is entirely possible that this is just a case of blind "going with the flow". Or it could simply be that different people shoot differently. Or it could simply be the case that depending on where you are different reticle make more sense.IMHO your results just represent the typical "monkey see, monkey do" mentality. Xmas-tree reticles became the most popular over the last 5+ years, and thus, since most don't want to go against the grain, most just stick with the herd.
Popularity doesn't always mean best though, evidenced by the Leupold Mark5HDs (arguably the crappiest of flagship scopes available, with the worst turrets and worst glass as compared to its competitors) being the most popular scope in the PRS (according to Cal at www.precisionrifleblog.com).
But... if you look at the current PRS Open standings, at least 3 or 4 (30-40%) of the top 10 peeps are running non-Xmas-tree reticles (TT JTAC and NF MIL-C).
So it's not just a couple of us fringe wierdos.
It is entirely possible that this is just a case of blind "going with the flow". Or it could simply be that different people shoot differently. Or it could simply be the case that depending on where you are different reticle make more sense.
If it is simply a case of "mokey see mokey do" using your own observation about JTAC and Mil-C, we should see a bunch of people switching to simpler reticles next year. I doubt that will happen, but time will tell.
As far as Mark 5HD goes, there is really no mystery why it is popular in PRS. Leupold has dumped more money into marketing to PRS than any other brand and by a solid margin. On the other hand, Tangent does not really do any marketing and it seems to be doing pretty well in PRS/NRL.
Unless you find a way to normalize those rankings by marketing spending, they do not really do much.
Reticles are an individual choice. Personally, I prefer relatively moderate tree reticles since I do not find them to get in the way much and do use the tree relatively frequently. I do strongly prefer non-tree reticles for paper shooting for some reason. Go figure.
It is also entirely possible, that the benefits of a simpler reticles become more apparent as the skill level increases. If you dial for both elevation and wind, as some of the best shooters I have seen do, you have more to keep track of. Perhaps, that is simply harder for less capable shooters (me included) to keep track of on the clock.
Given a choice, I tend to use the reticle quite a lot at moderate distances. Once we get beyond 500 or so, I almost exclusively dial for elevation and hold for wind. Naturally, when I have Impact 4000 on the gun, I find myself using the reticle for both elevation and wind holds increasingly more since leaving the turrets alone simplifies using a weapon mounted LRF.
Then again, I am not really a PRS shooter and perhaps I look at things differently.
To be fair, I did not phrase the question in the poll as "what would you use for PRS". I asked what is your preferred reticle type for practical precison shooting.
ILya
That's entirely possible. I do not have any especially strong opinions on the subject, to be honest. When I tried to figure out what works best for me, I got two identical March 5-42x56 scopes, one with a fml-tr1 tree reticle and one with fml-3 non tree reticle and went back and forth for a while.I'm guilty of "monkey see, monkey do" too. I'm one of those guys that you correctly predicted would try a non-Xmas-tree reticle because I noticed some of the top pros weren't running them (Xmas-trees)... and as it turns out, my eyes/brain love it.
I haven't missed the tree one bit, as when I've maybe needed one for holdovers during a match, my brain sort of superimposes it anyway and it's like I see it even though it's not there. In fact, yesterday I shot a local match and got 14 impacts going back and forth between 300 and 600 yards in 60 seconds holding 4-5 tenths left for wind the whole time (while zeroed for 300/1mil and holding 2.5mils up for 600), no tree needed (it was as many impacts as you could get in 60 seconds, and I won the stage, but I think I also was the only guy there with a 14rd mag and everyone else needed to to do a mag change ). If one needs to hold more than a full Mil or so of wind, then they're probably/arguably better off dialing it into the gun beforehand anyway.
I can't be the only one who's noticed the same thing, and I'd bet the PR3-MIL will be an option on Leupold's next-gen Mark5HD (like in their new Mark4HD), and then, if it becomes the new hotness, Vortex will be playing catch-up...