Parallax at 1047yds was on the 200yd on the wheel. Pretty much 200 was infinity
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Vortex Razor HD Gen III 6-36x56
- Thread starter jb1000br
- Start date
Am I right or wrong in my process for getting it level?
1. I level it up using the send it level and a 4 foot line I draw on the target with a 4 foot level.
2. Torque it down properly
3. I have a small dot sticker on the bottom of the 4 foot line on the target
4. I find the right combination of feeler gauges that fit under one side of the flat part of the scope to the base.
5. Shoot and zero scope at 100 yards
6. Aim at the small dot on the bottom of the 4 foot line at 100 yards and dial the elevation up to 8 then 10 and so on and hope the impact stays on the line.
7. If it doesn't I'll rotate the scope a half tho at a time till the impact is on the line all the way up.
1. I level it up using the send it level and a 4 foot line I draw on the target with a 4 foot level.
2. Torque it down properly
3. I have a small dot sticker on the bottom of the 4 foot line on the target
4. I find the right combination of feeler gauges that fit under one side of the flat part of the scope to the base.
5. Shoot and zero scope at 100 yards
6. Aim at the small dot on the bottom of the 4 foot line at 100 yards and dial the elevation up to 8 then 10 and so on and hope the impact stays on the line.
7. If it doesn't I'll rotate the scope a half tho at a time till the impact is on the line all the way up.
KISS
- Hang a plumb line not a drawn line down range.
- Level your rifle on a bench with rings and scope on it but not torqued down where you can still rotate the scope.
- Align the vertical reticle parallel to the plumb line and torque it down to spec.
I put a laser lever up on side my house. Attach send it to Pic rail on highest sensitivity. Clamp rifle into anvil atop Tripod with rifle leveled approx 30-40y way from house. I then level the reticle to the laser line on side my house, lock down rings and re-confirm scope never canted during trq sequence. It's worked well for me thus far. I usually confirm the send it with a starret bubble level, placing it on the Pic rail in 3-4 spots along the Pic to confirm everything is square.
It's not the housing you are leveling, it's the reticle. Assuming the turret housing is aligned with the reticle, you then test with a tall target test.
Something like the badger dead level should be used to setup the scope with a vertical line like a plumb bob.
First take the mount/rings and find out where the scope needs to be for propper eye relief.
Then transfer to dead level and make sure reticle is vertical. Tighten and torque the caps.
Now move to rifle and torque the mount to rifle. If it's not level when you are behind it, adjust the chassis/stock so it is, or fix your shooting form. You want the reticle to be vertical when you are behind the gun and shooting.
Now go do a tall target test to conform everything is correct. If not, redo the whole process and if it's still off by more than a tenth at 10 mils, you most likely have a tracking issue.
I would guess about 75% of people have an impropperly mounted optic. You can tell as soon as you behind someone's rifle.
Something like the badger dead level should be used to setup the scope with a vertical line like a plumb bob.
First take the mount/rings and find out where the scope needs to be for propper eye relief.
Then transfer to dead level and make sure reticle is vertical. Tighten and torque the caps.
Now move to rifle and torque the mount to rifle. If it's not level when you are behind it, adjust the chassis/stock so it is, or fix your shooting form. You want the reticle to be vertical when you are behind the gun and shooting.
Now go do a tall target test to conform everything is correct. If not, redo the whole process and if it's still off by more than a tenth at 10 mils, you most likely have a tracking issue.
I would guess about 75% of people have an impropperly mounted optic. You can tell as soon as you behind someone's rifle.
I use my garage door pull, but yeah, basically same process. I put a send-it on the rifle, keep the rifle in the green, align ele with the pull, torque down, validate, bag the rifle.
Yes. https://appliedballisticsllc.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Tall-Target.pdf
Store - Box to Bench Precision
Snipers Hide 100 Yard Scope Tracking Target - MIL - MOA - For Milliradian and Minute of Angle Scopes - True Minute of Angle - Precision Shooting -
www.boxtobenchprecision.com
My black one from EuroOptic came open box (I ordered a brand new one, not an open box model, but the seal was broken on it), and it has chromatic aberration that is VERY obvious when your eye is off center of the eye box, the reticle is blurry at max magnification when compared to the target background that is a clear image, and the parallax is WAY off. At 100y I'm setting it at 65-75y setting for clear image, 200y, it's on 100y, 300y on 150y setting... It's kind of not cool for a $4,700 MSRP scope to have CA, blurry reticle, and a terribly off parallax. I know parallax numbers are just estimates, and I could understand the adjustments being slightly above or below the yardage, but half the yardage? The scope is useable, which is why I'm still using it, but it's just not $4,000+ useable for me to be happy with it... When shot back-to-back on the same day, I was shocked to see that my $1,100 XTR-3 5.5-30x56 is keeping up with it in glass and reticle clarity at max mag (30x), and that the parallax number were much closer lining up. Hindsight & looking back to the open box issue, I wonder if I got someone's reject or return Razor that was sent back for those issues?
Not throwing any shade a Vortex, because things happen in mass-production, but I'm reading lots of posts of people having these same issues, so it's obviously not an isolated incident. I was just going to live with mine being slightly imperfect, but if they would swap me out for one that has been thoroughly and properly vetted to be perfect working order to proper specs of what a $4,700 MSRP scope should be, I'd send it back and let them swap it out...
@Scott_at_Vortex is this normal of the EuroOptic black Razors?
Both of mine including the one I sent back had great glass, no CA and the reticle easily focused.
Not mine... It has all 3 strikes... I'd assume it was grabbed from a reject pile and stuck in a box, given that it has those 3 issues.
If it was just the parallax, I'd deal with it, but I can't get the reticle to focus on the target in the background. It literally fades into the black target background, and it's blurry when you pan it over the orange parts, even adjusting the diopter.
I guarantee you that if you call up Vortex and tell them what’s up on Monday that buy the end of the week you’ll have a new one.
Hey FuhQ,
If you already know this then disregard. I only post it in hopes of helping you. I had a similar issue, or rather, I thought I did with mine. It turned out that I had not focused the ocular focus correctly. Once I followed the procedure, the scope focused on objects correctly and the distance on the parallax knob correlated with the object.
There's also a great thread here on The Hide about setting up diopters correctly.
Rifle Scopes - Setting up a FFP rifle scope - A simple PSA on Diopters
bohemr13 X96 MONTHS Premium Member First Sergeant Rating: 3.6/5 this site 7824 posts this site Setting up a FFP rifle scope - A simple PSA on Diopters 03/02/2015 Last edited 03/03/2015 by bohemr13 (9 votes) I recently had a somewhat disgruntled customer return a scope because he complained of...
www.snipershide.com
Below is the recomended procedure from Vortex for adjusting the diopter and focus:
Ocular Focus – Fast-Focus Eyepiece Adjustment
Your riflescope uses a Fast-Focus eyepiece
designed to quickly and easily adjust the
focus on the riflescope’s reticle. To adjust
the reticle focus:
1. Turn the magnification to the
highest power, and your parallax
knob to infinity.
2. Turn the Fast-Focus eyepiece all
the way in.
3. Aim the scope at a clear blue sky or a blank white wall.
4. Look through the optic at the reticle. If the reticle is blurry turn the
eyepiece slightly counter clockwise. Look away from the optic at
something nearby to let your eyes readjust and then back through
the optic to check reticle clarity. Repeat this step until the reticle is
perfectly in focus immediately when looking through the optic.
Yeah, I'm familiar with diopters and adjusting them.Hey FuhQ,
If you already know this then disregard. I only post it in hopes of helping you. I had a similar issue, or rather, I thought I did with mine. It turned out that I had not focused the ocular focus correctly. Once I followed the procedure, the scope focused on objects correctly and the distance on the parallax knob correlated with the object.
There's also a great thread here on The Hide about setting up diopters correctly.
Rifle Scopes - Setting up a FFP rifle scope - A simple PSA on Diopters
bohemr13 X96 MONTHS Premium Member First Sergeant Rating: 3.6/5 this site 7824 posts this site Setting up a FFP rifle scope - A simple PSA on Diopters 03/02/2015 Last edited 03/03/2015 by bohemr13 (9 votes) I recently had a somewhat disgruntled customer return a scope because he complained of...
Below is the recomended procedure from Vortex for adjusting the diopter and focus:
Ocular Focus – Fast-Focus Eyepiece Adjustment
Your riflescope uses a Fast-Focus eyepiece
designed to quickly and easily adjust the
focus on the riflescope’s reticle. To adjust
the reticle focus:
1. Turn the magnification to the
highest power, and your parallax
knob to infinity.
2. Turn the Fast-Focus eyepiece all
the way in.
3. Aim the scope at a clear blue sky or a blank white wall.
4. Look through the optic at the reticle. If the reticle is blurry turn the
eyepiece slightly counter clockwise. Look away from the optic at
something nearby to let your eyes readjust and then back through
the optic to check reticle clarity. Repeat this step until the reticle is
perfectly in focus immediately when looking through the optic.
But thanks for the input.
I picked up a new one this weekend none of the ill behaviors described above. To my surprise the parallax knob was right on the money and coming from an mk5 and an atacr i was very happy to see that. I took a good amount of time to set it up though.
Since you know seem to have everything figured out, i think it needs to go back to Vortex.
Since you know seem to have everything figured out, i think it needs to go back to Vortex.
I know they will, they're a great company to deal with. I've dealt with them a few times over the years, and they've always went above and beyond to make things right. It's not SUCH an inconvenience it's unusable or anything like that, just not what I'd consider indicative in QA/QC of a $4,700 MSRP scope. Honestly, it's not bad enough that I can't use it, so I was just going to keep running it for now, until I got fed up one day down the road, but it wasn't until I started reading more posts about other's having the same issues, that made me desire to go ahead and bite the bullet and get it replaced, since I've already done load development on that rifle, and all I'd need to do now is mount & re-zero a new scope, so not a big deal. I'll give them a call tomorrow.
I would personally like to see and test this scope. Please email me directly [email protected] and I'll get you a shipping label.
Ordered two new things from EuroOptic that came opened and molested. Both times they were shocked it got mixed up.
Yes I told them mine was a black one and she checked and said black was available and sent me a new black one
Hey Scott, I just shot that email over to you. It was busy at work today, so I completely forgot about it during work hours, my bad.
That's cool they sent you a new one first, and then sent the return label in the box. They want me to send mine in first for evaluation before sending a new one, so my .25CM will be down for a few weeks. But it's all good, as long as it gets fixed/replaced, I'll be happy.
While I'm waiting, I might scrounge up a set of 30mm rings and toss on the new Viper HD 5-25x50 FFP on there and get some real trigger time behind it for evaluation.
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Called them the same day I received it from EuroOptic, I was kinda surprised too but it shipped the next day with the return label in the box.That's cool they sent you a new one first, and then sent the return label in the box. They want me to send mine in first for evaluation before sending a new one, so my .25CM will be down for a few weeks. But it's all good, as long as it gets fixed/replaced, I'll be happy.
While I'm waiting, I might scrounge up a set of 30mm rings and toss on the new Viper HD 5-25x50 FFP on there and get some real trigger time behind it for evaluation.
Does anyone else find the Gen3's EBR-7D reticle visually complex/complicated (too many little hash lines to visually digest)..?
I recently switched back to a Razor Gen2, and even though I've only shot it a few times since the swap, the EBR-7C is so much easier on my brain/eyes and I've already experienced my shooting improve slightly without changing anything else. There's no doubt the Gen3's glass is better, there's no argument there, but for me, the slightly thicker/larger and less busy reticle in the Gen2 seems to be worth the trade-off.
l ran the Gen3 for nearly a year and during that span it sort of felt like my shooting had plateaued and I couldn't quite figure out why (since it's technically a "newer/better scope"). But now, after first shooting a Mark4HD PR3-MIL for a while, and then going back to the R2/7C (mostly for more robust build quality and better turrets), I feel like it's more likely than not that the R3 contributed to my stagnation, with the thinner/small-hashed/more busy EBR-7D reticle being the culprit.
@Scott_at_Vortex, any chance Vortex would ever do a Gen3 with a different, non-xmas-tree reticle, maybe something more "open" and less busy/complicated and a little thicker/easier-to-pick-up in the vane of Leupold's new PR3-MIL (which looks like sort of a thicker TT JTAC or ZCO MPCT1X with less hash marks IMO)..?
PR3-MIL:
I recently switched back to a Razor Gen2, and even though I've only shot it a few times since the swap, the EBR-7C is so much easier on my brain/eyes and I've already experienced my shooting improve slightly without changing anything else. There's no doubt the Gen3's glass is better, there's no argument there, but for me, the slightly thicker/larger and less busy reticle in the Gen2 seems to be worth the trade-off.
l ran the Gen3 for nearly a year and during that span it sort of felt like my shooting had plateaued and I couldn't quite figure out why (since it's technically a "newer/better scope"). But now, after first shooting a Mark4HD PR3-MIL for a while, and then going back to the R2/7C (mostly for more robust build quality and better turrets), I feel like it's more likely than not that the R3 contributed to my stagnation, with the thinner/small-hashed/more busy EBR-7D reticle being the culprit.
@Scott_at_Vortex, any chance Vortex would ever do a Gen3 with a different, non-xmas-tree reticle, maybe something more "open" and less busy/complicated and a little thicker/easier-to-pick-up in the vane of Leupold's new PR3-MIL (which looks like sort of a thicker TT JTAC or ZCO MPCT1X with less hash marks IMO)..?
PR3-MIL:
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I am of the opinion that the EBR-2C in a G2 4.5-27 is better than the 7C. I don’t dial and rarely shoot upon the main horizontal stadia, so .5mil hashes up there don’t bother me and open the view up.
The 7D on paper is also better, for me, than the 7C. The 7C’s long drippy hashes bug the crap out of me lol. I once had an AMG with similar hashes like that and had to sell it for that reason.
The 2C
Funny how all of us react differently to reticles, ain’t it?
I'm not really a big fan of it. I MUCH prefer the Burris SCR2 and NF MIL-XT reticles. I actually mentioned this same exact thing to @Scott_at_Vortex a few days ago in the email correspondence for getting my Razor G3 sent back for evaluation/replacement. I mentioned I hope they will look into making some changes in future models.
That's the thing, isn't it? I know everyone's eyes are different, I get that, but the longer I do this the more I feel like the "less is more" or "addition by subtraction" thing comes into play.
I know for a long time it was all about who had the best Xmas tree reticle... but since many/most of us are playing the "see splash -> make correction" game, I feel like having something more open and less visually complicated works better. I know for myself that I've missed a hell of a lot more shots based on not seeing my splash well enough versus not having some hash/dot for a hold. I know it's not just me either, due to the articles that have been coming out over the last year or two showcasing some of the top PRS shooters and their gear, revealing that at least some of them are not using Xmas trees, like Austin Buschman (NF MIL C) and Austin Orgain (was TT JTAC, I'd guess ZCO MPCT1X these days?), etc. I wouldn't be surprised if a couple/few team-Leupold guys were running next-gen Mark5 prototypes with their PR3 reticle inside (may have heard a rumor lol).
That said, I'm not a product marketing guy or product designer, and there's no doubt that the explosion in precision rimfire/NRL22 stuff is having a huge influence on new products for our sport. Arguably, most of the stuff I dislike about the EBR-7D might make it more desirable to rimfire guys who're cranking up the magnification a lot more often than I do and sometimes shooting at targets the size of a quarter.
I know it comes down to "different strokes for different folks", and different guys prefer different shit. I just wish there was an option to get both the better glass and a less-busy reticle.
(The same sort of thing happened to me years ago when I was shooting 3-gun and a lot of USPSA... I realized I shot far better with an Aimpoint and its single-dot versus an EOtech and the donut of death on ARs, and none of my pistols wear anything besides plain rear sights with no distracting dots/lines or anything, so I guess for me it's a trend.)
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I'd like to see the EBR-7D lose the vertical marks above 2 MILs at the top and make the .2MIL hashmarks alternate or different lengths to help differentiate them.
Definitely different reticles for different shooters. It is one of those things that you really can't argue against someone else's preference.
I'm a big fan if the EBR-7D...but...I'm also a hobbiest target shooter. Maybe the reticle is too small for some of the PRS crowd, but I know that the G3 Razor is one of the more popular optics in that segment (probably more for other reasons). If you need just a little more of the reticle without going too crazy, the Mil-XT of the Nightforce is pretty good.
I've got an LRP S3 on loan, and to me the ZF-MRi is a bit too pronounced at higher magnification for my liking (it is still very usable though, and especially at 50-60% of max magnification). At full magnification on smaller critters though you cover a lot more of the animal behind the reticle.
I'm a big fan if the EBR-7D...but...I'm also a hobbiest target shooter. Maybe the reticle is too small for some of the PRS crowd, but I know that the G3 Razor is one of the more popular optics in that segment (probably more for other reasons). If you need just a little more of the reticle without going too crazy, the Mil-XT of the Nightforce is pretty good.
I've got an LRP S3 on loan, and to me the ZF-MRi is a bit too pronounced at higher magnification for my liking (it is still very usable though, and especially at 50-60% of max magnification). At full magnification on smaller critters though you cover a lot more of the animal behind the reticle.
I have the Razor II with the old non-Xmas tree reticle. I also have a Viper with the Xmas tree reticle. For me and what I am doing I like the non-Xmas tree reticle. The Xmas tree reticles have too much going on for me.
Totally agree. I shoot pdogs and much smaller varmints, so I am one of those on high-to-max mag all of the time.
It is a little weird that Vortex doesn’t offer more reticles for their Razors, especially just simpler crosshair versions like the Mil-C.
Maybe they control costs by really limiting skus?
Yes.
I pretty low speed/high drag. I am just shooting off the bench so I just dial.
I know other people are doing other things and want the Xmas tree reticles. I just don't like that Vortex is only offering that type of reticle now.
Honestly, the VMR-4 MRAD FFP reticle in my Viper HD 5-25x50 is better to my eyes than the EBR-7D MRAD that's in my Razor Gen3 6-36x56.
At max mag, on a black/very dark background, the EBR-7D just blends right in, even at 36x. I actually shoot better with the Burris SCR2, NF MIL-XT, and believe it or not the Arken VPR reticle does better for my eyes and FOV on the target, despite it being very similar to the EBR-7D. The dot in the middle has more open area around it. Just like the SCR2 and MIL-XT. I find the EBR-7D too cluttered and compacted around the center dot. I think there's too much packed right around the middle and it's causing my eyes to not be able to focus on the center dot.
At max mag, on a black/very dark background, the EBR-7D just blends right in, even at 36x. I actually shoot better with the Burris SCR2, NF MIL-XT, and believe it or not the Arken VPR reticle does better for my eyes and FOV on the target, despite it being very similar to the EBR-7D. The dot in the middle has more open area around it. Just like the SCR2 and MIL-XT. I find the EBR-7D too cluttered and compacted around the center dot. I think there's too much packed right around the middle and it's causing my eyes to not be able to focus on the center dot.
I looked up that VMR-4 reticle and I bet I'd like that better too.
I agree that the EBR-7D is too cluttered around the dot, there's just too much visual information going on, there's a .2mil hash in every direction, and since they're all the same size, my brain can't discern any priority, and seems to get hung up trying to take it all in. While it's certainly not a Tremor or Horus trainwreck, it still has that "looking through a screen door" effect IMO.
It seems like it was developed in a boardroom more so than at the range to me, somewhere along the way some guys must've cried to Vortex about not having enough hash marks to "operate" or some shit, and it's almost like they tried to please everybody by putting a hash everywhere they could fit one.
Inevitably, someone's going to be along any minute and call us pussys because we dial and don't use holdovers for a whole 2-day.
I agree that the EBR-7D is too cluttered around the dot, there's just too much visual information going on, there's a .2mil hash in every direction, and since they're all the same size, my brain can't discern any priority, and seems to get hung up trying to take it all in. While it's certainly not a Tremor or Horus trainwreck, it still has that "looking through a screen door" effect IMO.
It seems like it was developed in a boardroom more so than at the range to me, somewhere along the way some guys must've cried to Vortex about not having enough hash marks to "operate" or some shit, and it's almost like they tried to please everybody by putting a hash everywhere they could fit one.
Inevitably, someone's going to be along any minute and call us pussys because we dial and don't use holdovers for a whole 2-day.
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So far it seems like a nice scope. Will be taking it to the range tomorrow to get some real trigger time behind it. I'm using it as a stand-in on my custom Solus/Proof .25CM until my Razor Gen3 comes back from Vortex.I looked up that VMR-4 reticle and I bet I'd like that better too.
I agree that the EBR-7D is too cluttered around the dot, there's just too much visual information going on, there's a .2mil hash in every direction, and since they're all the same size, my brain can't discern any priority, and seems to get hung up trying to take it all in. While it's certainly not a Tremor or Horus trainwreck, it still has that "looking through a screen door" effect IMO.
Inevitably, someone's going to along any minute and call us pussys because we dial and don't use holdovers for a whole 2-day.
They're actually on sale for a really good price at Natchez, if you want to try one...
Natchez
www.natchezss.com
There seems to be a cycle of “I am not accurate enough, I need more subtensions” that eventually turns into “This is too damn busy, I need what I once had.”
Mil Dot -> TMR -> EBR7C -> PR2
And eventually the PR2 users realize that bracketing the target between the .5 on the TMR gets them .25 and the face-palming and sighs begin.
-Stan
Mil Dot -> TMR -> EBR7C -> PR2
And eventually the PR2 users realize that bracketing the target between the .5 on the TMR gets them .25 and the face-palming and sighs begin.
-Stan
So far it seems like a nice scope. Will be taking it to the range tomorrow to get some real trigger time behind it. I'm using it as a stand-in on my custom Solus/Proof .25CM until my Razor Gen3 comes back from Vortex.
They're actually on sale for a really good price at Natchez, if you want to try one...
Natchez
Thanks, but I'm going to shoot the Gen2 for a while until I decide which one is next in my "musical scopes" rotation lol.
I would have kept the Mark4HD with PR3 reticle if I wasn't such a turret snob and spoiled by being used to the beefiness of the Razors... I dug that PR3 enough that I kind of regret pulling it off and selling it so fast and actually might end up buying another one.
There seems to be a cycle of “I am not accurate enough, I need more subtensions” that eventually turns into “This is too damn busy, I need what I once had.”
Mil Dot -> TMR -> EBR7C -> PR2
And eventually the PR2 users realize that bracketing the target between the .5 on the TMR gets them .25 and the face-palming and sighs begin.
-Stan
Exactly!
The Viper HD is basically a mini version of the Razor turrets. It has super positive clicks and the push/pull locking. Very smooth, too. If you like the Razors, you'd probably like that one, too. And the glass is impressive for it's price point, as well.Thanks, but I'm going to shoot the Gen2 for a while until I decide which one is next in my "musical scopes" rotation lol.
I would have kept the Mark4HD with PR3 reticle if I wasn't such a turret snob and spoiled by being used to the beefiness of the Razors... I dug that PR3 enough that I kind of regret pulling it off and selling it so fast and actually might end up buying another one.
I just think the sport and gear is evolving and we're evolving with it. At one point not too long ago a Tremor 3 was the new hotness and commanded a few hundred bucks more to block your view and guys were doing it lol.
I'm who @stanley_white was talking about... A couple of years back I might have fallen into that "I need more sub-tensions so I can be more accurate" group... now I'm like "WTF are all these lines for? no one needs this shit".
I'm who @stanley_white was talking about... A couple of years back I might have fallen into that "I need more sub-tensions so I can be more accurate" group... now I'm like "WTF are all these lines for? no one needs this shit".
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