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The learning curve is not as steep as it's made out to be if you a) use target focus and b) use dry fire practice to fix your draw and presentation so the dot appears where you look 100% of the time.Not dramatically more accurate. The dot is easier for aging eyes to see, so that helps some. There is a steep learning curve to using a dot in action pistol sports. Much easier to use in bullseye matches.
For me, yes.Has your employment of a red dot made you a more precise pistol shooter? Thanks in advance.
The subject line pretty much sums it up. Has your employment of a red dot made you a more precise pistol shooter? Thanks in advance.
YES
Shooting open sights I would draw, point the pistol at the target and then line up the sights. This can be done pretty quick.
With a red dot I draw, point the pistol at the target and..... I don't see anything?! Where is the dot?! After a few reps of dry fire and building muscle memory I can now look at the target and simply put the dot on it. Sometimes after I've dry fires a few times and I am warmed up I can look at the target, close my eyes, draw and point the pistol. Open my eyes and I am on target.
I shot a buddies Limited gun and found that I shoot open sights much faster now because I am a better pistol shooter now. The red dot showed me how much I was doing wrong. Train out the wrong and you are better overall.
I can look at the target, close my eyes, draw and point the pistol. Open my eyes and I am on target.
At 3 yards (your cherry picked example) you barely need to aim if you have a good index. You should be equally as fast with either sighting system.At likely defensive distances I am much faster with irons and acceptably accurate.
As a disliker of batteries, owner of a beautiful astigmatism, and someone who is not duty bound to defend anyone, I will stick with my XS Big Dot iron sights until EoTech’s holographic technology gets small enough to put in a pistol.
-Stan
By which standard?My fundamentals are good.
With good reasonI hate to use the term point shooting because it brings out the haters.
You wasted your timeI"ve taken several days of instinctive/reflexive shooting classes with people who are considered to be students of the great Bob Taubert. It's not an either or situation.
Every shot I take is sighted, even at that distance. And I bet I could beat your point shooting speed. You are right about index, thoughAt arms length there is zero reference to anything visual other than the target. You index based on muscle memory.
I and many people use target focus with irons way past 50 feet. Don't you? Why do you slow down because of distance?As you move out you make more reference to the sights until somewhere around 50 ft, you are making a hard focus on the front sight. As you go out, you slow down.
That's certainly not the case for everyoneI used an extreme example to illustrate a point, but it doesn't change the fact that at likely defensive distances I am faster with irons
That's because they foolishly try to focus on the dot as if it were a front sight and their index sucks because irons let you get away with a less than well developed index.and anyone who is reasonably skilled with irons will also require a fairly long transition period.
What's your definition of instinctive? I want to make sure I understand the context. Why do you waste time overconfirming? Maybe you should have spent some of your training money on Ben Stoeger, Tim Herron, Mason Lane, or any other high level practical shooter who teaches; instead of spending all that money on classes with some point shooting guy that no one has ever heard of. Then you would have learned about different levels of confirmation based on shot difficulty and time constraintsI failed to explain that I think this is partly because I'm 100% instinctive with irons and am not yet 100% instinctive with a dot. And yes, I do waste time over confirming.
We agree on that. Though I bet we disagree on what "trained" actually involves.A red dot for a carry gun, once the person is trained and transitioned is definitely superior.
I think you overestimate the time it takes, since you haven't transitioned to a RDS. I do know because I've transitioned and quite successfully.I guess my main point that I was trying to make, but didn't do very well at is that most people badly underestimate the amount of time it takes to gain instinctive proficiency with one.
Kinda irrelevant. I've been shooting pistols for 5 years and picked up optics 4 years ago. Went from nothing to USPSA Master in that time. How long someone has been doing something doesn't mean much to me. How well can someone do something means more.I’ve been shooting for roughly 40 years. In that time I’ve shot everything from bulls-eye, to IDPA, to sporting clays with iron/brass sighted guns. I found pretty quickly that long range shots, where I’d normally have had a hard focus on the front sight, were easier and more accurate with a dot. Shoot, I put an early AimPoint on my dad's .22 pistol that he used in a local league, way back in 1985ish.
There's that overcomfirmation thing againI also had difficulty shooting as quickly at defensive distances with it. I found I would get “fiddly” with it trying to get the perfect shot, when good enough would have been good enough and much faster.
JV numbersWith roughly 4500 rounds shot in relatively structured training environments, plus another 4000 or soon my own,
1. YesI’m of the following opinion.
1. Eventually I will be better all around with the dot sight.
2. I am currently better served by an iron sighted defensive handgun because I am reasonably accurate and a good deal faster at LIKELY defensive distances.
3. Most people MASSIVELY underestimate the amount of shooting it will take to become more proficient (100% instinctive) with a dot sight than they are currently with iron sights.
4. If you don’t have instinctive proficiency with irons, then transition will take less time because you won’t have to get as much better before you are good with a dot sight.
5) One reason a dot sight is "harder" is that if you are inconsistent in your mount (like most shooters) then you will have to "find" the dot. If you are way off with irons, it's easy to see with your periphery how you need to correct. With all dots except for one, you have to waste time finding the dot.
So instead of buying a ching-chong made gimmick, put the time in dry fire to refine your index so the dot shows up in front of your eyes no matter what.The problem with the one sight that provides this kind of instinctive corrective feedback is that it's Chinese. And it's not just Chinese, but made by a Chinese company that also makes sights for the PLA and the CCP. That company is of course Holosun and their Vulcan reticle, which is only sold through Primary Arms. The Vulcan retical includes a huge circle reticle such that if the gun is crooked and the dot is outside your field of view, the circle of the Vulcan reticle IS visible, giving you instant feedback.
FuddsThis seems like a minor thing. But I've run drills where people SEEMED proficient with a dot sight completely fell apart when they had to
1) shoot from behind cover
2) shoot from the ground (like if you were just attacked and find yourself on the ground)
3) strong or weak hand only.
You guys can say whatever you want with your homemade, non-reproducible, non-documented "testing"After months of running them I didn't find myself to be more accurate with them to 30yds, and I found my draw to first shot times to be a cunt hair slower sub 10yds, rest tended to equal out.
But, I also spent well over $1,000 on different iron sights to find a combo I love. And I have great natural point of aim with my handguns, I spent a lot of money to make that the case.
I can run them much like red dot speed shooters note they run the dot, simply confirm color and pull the trigger, for practical accuracy.
My 5yd target is a 7x12, 2x2 of that is the head, my 7yd target is the same but it is a hostage target, so it has a 2" circle swinger as well. My 8 1/3yd target is a 10x16, 3x3 head box is part of that, it's a hostage target as well, so it has a 3" circle swinger as well. My 10 yd target is a texas star on which I replaced the 8" plates with 4" plates, then 8" plates to 20yds, 10" at 25 and 30, a 12x20 at 30 and another texas star but with 8" at 30yds.
I note that to note that I love to practice speed but with headshots only on my 5, 7 and 8 1/3yd targets, and bat the hostage taker circle plates back and forth. My 10yd texas star is also behind these targets, so I have to dodge and weave to shoot the moving 4" plates, precision is needed or I may cut my shorter targets down. I tend to like my practical accuracy to be better than a whole chest, not that that's needed, or even smart, but I sure feel better if I can speed run and hit inside 2" and 3" targets.
I tried the red dots with all configs, the circle dot, the circle, the dot, the circle dot I found quite useless, the others got several weeks of trial each. If a person runs a red dot liking to confirm to relative clarity of the reticle, I found the circle quicker and every bit as accurate, if you can shoot to a blur of color without needing dot clarity, you want just the dot.
My fundamentals are good. I hate to use the term point shooting because it brings out the haters.
I"ve taken several days of instinctive/reflexive shooting classes with people who are considered to be students of the great Bob Taubert. It's not an either or situation.
At arms length there is zero reference to anything visual other than the target. You index based on muscle memory.
As you move out you make more reference to the sights until somewhere around 50 ft, you are making a hard focus on the front sight. As you go out, you slow down.
I used an extreme example to illustrate a point, but it doesn't change the fact that at likely defensive distances I am faster with irons and anyone who is reasonably skilled with irons will also require a fairly long transition period.
I failed to explain that I think this is partly because I'm 100% instinctive with irons and am not yet 100% instinctive with a dot. And yes, I do waste time over confirming.
A red dot for a carry gun, once the person is trained and transitioned is definitely superior. I guess my main point that I was trying to make, but didn't do very well at is that most people badly underestimate the amount of time it takes to gain instinctive proficiency with one.
I’ve been shooting for roughly 40 years. In that time I’ve shot everything from bulls-eye, to IDPA, to sporting clays with iron/brass sighted guns. I found pretty quickly that long range shots, where I’d normally have had a hard focus on the front sight, were easier and more accurate with a dot. Shoot, I put an early AimPoint on my dad's .22 pistol that he used in a local league, way back in 1985ish.
I also had difficulty shooting as quickly at defensive distances with it. I found I would get “fiddly” with it trying to get the perfect shot, when good enough would have been good enough and much faster.
With roughly 4500 rounds shot in relatively structured training environments, plus another 4000 or soon my own, I’m of the following opinion.
1. Eventually I will be better all around with the dot sight.
2. I am currently better served by an iron sighted defensive handgun because I am reasonably accurate and a good deal faster at LIKELY defensive distances.
3. Most people MASSIVELY underestimate the amount of shooting it will take to become more proficient (100% instinctive) with a dot sight than they are currently with iron sights.
4. If you don’t have instinctive proficiency with irons, then transition will take less time because you won’t have to get as much better before you are good with a dot sight.
5) One reason a dot sight is "harder" is that if you are inconsistent in your mount (like most shooters) then you will have to "find" the dot. If you are way off with irons, it's easy to see with your periphery how you need to correct. With all dots except for one, you have to waste time finding the dot.
The problem with the one sight that provides this kind of instinctive corrective feedback is that it's Chinese. And it's not just Chinese, but made by a Chinese company that also makes sights for the PLA and the CCP. That company is of course Holosun and their Vulcan reticle, which is only sold through Primary Arms. The Vulcan retical includes a huge circle reticle such that if the gun is crooked and the dot is outside your field of view, the circle of the Vulcan reticle IS visible, giving you instant feedback.
This seems like a minor thing. But I've run drills where people SEEMED proficient with a dot sight completely fell apart when they had to
1) shoot from behind cover
2) shoot from the ground (like if you were just attacked and find yourself on the ground)
3) strong or weak hand only.
All of a sudden their indexing was off. And it took them a long long time to get back on the dot.
So . . yes, it's long winded.
In summary. Dots are more accurate and possibly faster once you learn to use it properly. However even if you know how to use it properly, it needs to become 100% instinctive. Ot at least it needs to be as instinctive as irons, if you are new to shooting.
True statement. Also a population that is heavily into gear as an advantage. If you took a B class or better shooter and let them reacquaint themselves with irons, I doubt they'd see a ton of difference. There'd be some, but not much. It's like a rack - they are picking a small POA, it registers that the FS / Dot is on that POA; trigger is pressed; the vision is already locked on to the next small POA and the sound from the hit is being registered at the same time; and because that is where they are looking, the gun naturally lines up on POA - b/c their grip and every other aspect of their mechanics is solid.You guys can say whatever you want with your homemade, non-reproducible, non-documented "testing"
The fact of the matter is that it is very rare for anyone using a non-compensated iron sight pistol in a USPSA match to finish ahead of anyone of similar skill using a non-compensated pistol with optical sight.
If I'm lying to you I'm lying to myself...
I noticed the same thing. Training with a red dot improves your pistol shooting.The best training aid for iron sights is a red dot. If you're slower on the dot than irons you need to learn how to train with the dot. My Limited Division performance took a big step up when I started shooting Open Division. Going from a dot back to irons took very little practice and every metric with irons showed improvement.
Where you at? If you're close enough I'll shoot against you.My range is in my backyard, the red dots are still sitting here as is the additional slide for my P320 that works with the red dot, the 2011 has always been setup to accept one.
You want to pay me for my time we can slap them back on and go run tests, fly on out, draw to first shot, draw to first shot on headboxes, accuracy testing and so on...
If I'm lying to you I'm lying to myself... There's no reason for me not to be running them if they were better for me, I already bought them, they are still here, I've got the $1500 in gear sitting here rotting away...
Is there a reason I'd be lying? Do you see it? Because I don't, I don't work in the industry, I'm not sponsored, I don't make money by not running red dots.
I run handguns because I carry a handgun, meaning my reason for owning them is strictly from a defense of life standpoint.
You think I'm risking my life using a materially worse product when I have the "better" product sitting 10ft away and ready to use?
You sound like the, "97% of scientists agree, humans are causing a global catastrophe, we are destroying the climate." Well look at that, all the "right" people are saying it, must be so and it must be so for everyone, everywhere, we've established "the" truth.
Get that coronavirus shot, safe and effective, all the "right" people say so, science is settled here bro, and for everyone.
What, you're allergic, fuck that, it's safe and effective, bro Ben Stoeger says so, do you know who he is, get the shot, can't be outliers, or perceived outliers, the right people are on our side.
By the way, never said don't use a red dot, go for it, just like I don't tell people they have to run a ported or comped gun, they have to carry appendix, they have to buy Toyota, be of a certain religion.
Do what's best for you, if my future testing shows the red dot right for me, they'll be on my guns, including my 500S&W, until then, irons.
TLDR......nothing I said has anything to do with USPSA and everything to do with individual skill.Shoot against me...
What are you talking about? This thread is about what results people have seen with red dots.
That's a personal question about personal results.
This isn't a thread about USPSA or competition in general and wasn't a question of us squaring off against each other.
You're arguing against a guy that literally just gave his asked for experience regarding how red dots worked out for him...
That's it, didn't claim I was a better USPSA shooter than you, didn't claim irons were better than red dots in some general fashion, just noted my particular experience.
I'm in Northern MN, and the testing would be me against me, that's what I tested, me with red dot vs me with irons, you know, the point of this thread, how did red dots change my accuracy and precision. It's me vs. me to know what's best for me. You seemed to want proof, the proof would be you coming here and watching me shoot my guns with red dots and then with irons. That wasn't meant to imply we were going to shoot against each other... why would it, that's not what this thread is about.
How you come to the conclusion that all of a sudden I need to run a match against you to determine if irons or red dots are more precise for me...
Not only that, he did ask specifically about precision, which you dismissed as not practical, which he also didn't ask.
Or maybe I missed something. I don't see that we're in the competition forum... thread title and OP didn't indicate competition specific anything. IDK
I think you guys are off your mark trashing on members like they have to live that competition life or they must be inadequate and ignorant.
Not all of us train to play a game, that isn't our motivation nor is it necessarily practical or wise to our end goal. You do, that's great and competition has its place but that doesn't need to be interjected into every conversation and imposed on everyone as God's law, because whether you're a grand blaster USPSA guy doesn't guarantee that you can perform in a defense of life situation.
Or, whatever other motivation a person here may have, it may simply be fun, and training as though competing for king of USPSA isn't a fun way to enjoy their shooting, to that person. They also don't need to be lectured by you.
And so on.
After months of running them I didn't find myself to be more accurate with them to 30yds, and I found my draw to first shot times to be a cunt hair slower sub 10yds, rest tended to equal out.
TLDR......nothing I said has anything to do with USPSA and everything to do with individual skill.
You tell on yourself with this
Only a person with abysmal shooting skills would not see and improvement in both speed and accuracy after MONTHS of using an RDS on a pistol.
LOL
more precise pistol shooter?
It's even simpler. Cover the front of the RDS with tape.For fun - think your grip is pretty consistent? Put your PVS14 on, run at normal COF speed, and fuse the two images off the draw (see POA w/ NV with non dominate NOD eye, see a 'red' dot with your dominate eye, fuse them and make the hits). I had not done that in a while until last night. I think I'll be doing more of that. There are no lies in the dark.
What's amusing is, you tell yourself that, and laugh.
But why...
If we who did not find benefit with red dots are so nothing... why oh why are you feeling the need to argue with what we found for ourselves?
We're abysmal shooters apparently.
It's a God complex and it's shown even there, because you'll say something like, "because I don't want others to think what you say is truth," as though you believe none of them could see it when you seem to think it's so obvious...
So God must even save all of them, those idiots reading our posts that won't see we are just abysmal shooters, and even though I noted my experience was my own.
It's my experience regarding myself, made clear, but surely they'd take it as gospel for all and you can't have that, right, God.
The God that isn't even top of shit in his own sport.
You bring that competition shit into everything, you post your stage videos, to show, it's seeps from your pores in what you say because you used it as a backing for it constantly... look, he's GOD, did he win that stage, well, we'll never know... did he win the match... who knows.
But listen to him, he knows.
God complex brother, nobody else can have a differing view, even when it's about them and their own life, it's your way or the wrong way.
And remember, you noted precision doesn't matter, GOD, but you jumped in on the thread anyway, to save all the MORONS that read this from themselves, because they can't see that.
Light the way brother, you got this, everyone else is the problem and you can do no wrong.
Everybody knows now and you've saved them. My experience regarding myself and what I saw was just because I am an abysmal shooter.
Which doesn't make it untrue... but hey, you still need to make a deal of it, because again, these idiots reading this aren't going to see it for themselves and they'll all go back to irons...
Top notch job brother, you found me out, mods can change my name to abysmal shooter.
You know, you've got some good information to share, if you learned to drop the ego, you know what I'm talking about because other people have pointed it out too.
There's value in some of the shit you have to say, but not in the way you always present yourself and your views, you also need to understand, you aren't perfect, and therefore you aren't always going to be right.
Now for something important:
Do you guys smack each other on the ass and say some encouraging shit when you score a perfect stage? Or is it more a cheeky dick slap sport?
Good luck