So over the Contrived and Repetitive Nature of Stages today

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

If we are being honest, this needs to change.

Three steps: drop the weighted, tuned, flat-bottom rifle on a bag, wash, rinse, repeat

This is stupid; where is the training value beyond repetition, and what skill are we demonstrating?

There must be a reason; we need to have value in the course of fire. Sure, entertain us, but why not have a training objective with the stages?

What is the actual takeaway?

Even watching the stages at Cameo, they were reduced to size, ignoring the terrain, adding artificial props, and doing nothing to increase the stress or heart rate of the competitor. Why are we trying to ease shooters into a scenario instead of increasing the movement?

Why no mandatory mag changes, it's designed to work with you vs forcing you to adapt. The only compromise I see is the height of the obstacle, correct me if i am wrong, but what are the 3 main solutions to a shot being promoted? Bag on prop, bag on prop with tripod rear, bag on prop...

I know I am pissing in the wind, but I am gonna offer up choices; I think it's boring to watch; it's who taps the trigger vs who follows through, and not much else as the rifles do all the work. The only value comes in the number of stages you shoot, the repetition.

Look at it this way, at the IPRF there were no training clinics beyond Emils talk and really there is no value in training, only shooting the comps as is... weird they dont value training, there is nothing to be learned is what i saw, no Tips and Tricks, they just assume you are there so you are the peak of the sport... crazy they ignore this element

and before you dismiss it completely, look at archery again, look at the front page of their competitive organization, right at the top, find a coach, find a mentor, find training, learn the craft as you progress, we have none of that... strange to me.

AirgunnerPCP · Sep 24, 2024

To answer your question with maybe an unpopular question, why does it need to have training value? In my opinion, not everything needs to be focused on "training". At the end of the day it's a game played with rifles. Learn how to play the game and play it well. Some skills acquired in the game may cross over to other applications but not all will.

I do agree that sometimes stages get repetitive and mandatory mag changes should be more commonplace in CoF (might be elsewhere but they aren't at the matches I shoot).

Also regarding your comment about weighted, flat bottomed rifles I'd argue that's the nature of sport. As the sport matures the equipment to participate becomes more specialized. Is this a bad thing? I'd argue no. It's equipment to give a competitive advantage.

kthomas · Sep 24, 2024

You nailed it.

PRS is so uninteresting to me now. Every stage at any given match seems to more or less be a variation of what you describe. As a marksman, I don't feel like I'm being challenged.

PRS used to be a series of competition that was designed to test skills that one could see and use in real life scenarios. It's moved far away from that now - I think your terminology of "barricade benchrest" is very apt. 30lb 6mm guns with 10 oz triggers, being shot off of contrived props using ~10lb barricade bags to simulate an incredibly steady setup that mitigates the human input as much as possible.

Its not a test of marksmanship skills anymore. Its a test of how quickly you can build a position on a contrived prop using equipment that eliminates the human inputs.

When I got into PRS years ago, it felt like much more of a test of marksmanship. Every stage and every match was different. There was elements included to add physical and/or mental stress or incorporate strategies that tested you. There was more variability between stages. More incorporation of natural elements or features.

Now, every stage is a minor variation of the stage before and after it. A familiar contrived prop, the only real difference comes in a form of target shape/size, target distance, and # of targets. Stage strategy is almost always the same: walk up to prop, place down barricade bag, shoot targets, move as necessary. Some may want to incorporate a rear rest like a tripod for even further support.

The CD matches seem very intriguing to me. I would love to shoot some - those seem to incorporate much more practical elements and the geographical terrain into the matches. Much less contrived props. More applications to marksmanship and the real world. The issue is that there isn't a big network of CD matches - there's only 4 matches a year.

kthomas · Sep 24, 2024

AirgunnerPCP said:
To answer your question with maybe an unpopular question, why does it need to have training value? In my opinion, not everything needs to be focused on "training". At the end of the day it's a game played with rifles. Learn how to play the game and play it well. Some skills acquired in the game may cross over to other applications but not all will.

I do agree that sometimes stages get repetitive and mandatory mag changes should be more commonplace in CoF (might be elsewhere but they aren't at the matches I shoot).

Some people want to get tested on actual marksmanship.

PRS is now a game of how efficiently you can work a (very contrived) stage, using equipment that mitigates the human inputs.

mmlook · Sep 24, 2024

AirgunnerPCP said:
To answer your question with maybe an unpopular question, why does it need to have training value? In my opinion, not everything needs to be focused on "training". At the end of the day it's a game played with rifles. Learn how to play the game and play it well. Some skills acquired in the game may cross over to other applications but not all will.

I do agree that sometimes stages get repetitive and mandatory mag changes should be more commonplace in CoF (might be elsewhere but they aren't at the matches I shoot).

I believe the point is,

training = knowledge transfer = growth of the sport/community/audience

at the end of the day,
competition is supposed to drive innovation.
Which in turn leads into mass revolution(new, better way to do things, for the average person)

AirgunnerPCP · Sep 24, 2024

kthomas said:
Some people want to get tested on actual marksmanship.

PRS is now a game of how efficiently you can work a (very contrived) stage, using equipment that mitigates the human inputs.

That's a fair critique and I don't disagree. I guess my thing is that clearly PRS has gained popularity so the formula is working in some sense.

kthomas · Sep 24, 2024

AirgunnerPCP said:
That's a fair critique and I don't disagree. I guess my thing is that clearly PRS has gained popularity so the formula is working in some sense.

Some people definitely enjoy it. No doubt about that.

AirgunnerPCP · Sep 24, 2024

mmlook said:
I believe the point is,

training = knowledge transfer = growth of the sport/community/audience

at the end of the day,
competition is supposed to drive innovation.
Which in turn leads into mass revolution(new, better way to do things, for the average person)

If the sport is growing without the specified "training" is it bad?

The competition is driving innovation. Innovation on how to better compete and play the game.

kthomas · Sep 24, 2024

AirgunnerPCP said:
If the sport is growing without the specified "training" is it bad?

The competition is driving innovation. Innovation on how to better compete and play the game.

Is it driving people to be better marksmen?

Or is it driving innovation that mitigates input from the shooter?

mmlook · Sep 24, 2024

AirgunnerPCP said:
If the sport is growing without the specified "training" is it bad?

The competition is driving innovation. Innovation on how to better compete and play the game.

actually talked to a few people/MD's at length about this over drinks and dinner this past year

here are the numbers for PRS pro series, open division
- people that
1. are a member
2. shot a pro series match
3. have at least 1 point
2024 - 979
2023 - 953
2022 - 878

what's driving the PRS growth is mainly the rimfire side, not centerfire

AirgunnerPCP · Sep 24, 2024

kthomas said:
Is it driving people to be better marksmen?

Or is it driving innovation that mitigates input from the shooter?

How do you define becoming a better marksman? Maximizing your hit probablitity in a given situation? Not even being sarcastic but a serious question. Depending on how folks answer that would drive their perspective on this discussion.

AirgunnerPCP · Sep 24, 2024

mmlook said:
actually talked to a few people/MD's at length about this over drinks and dinner this past year

here are the numbers for PRS pro series, open division
- people that
1. are a member
2. shot a pro series match
3. have at least 1 point
2024 - 979
2023 - 953
2022 - 878

what's driving the PRS growth is mainly the rimfire side, not centerfire

That's good data to have and shows that maybe there's not a ton of growth on the Pro side. I wonder how that looks for rimfire and the regional series? I shoot probably a match a weekend and am only signed up for regional and rimfire. The cost and time commitment for Pro matches, at least for my situation and more than a few of my shooting buddies, is a much bigger hurdle to clear.

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

People like Bowling too, tons of leagues that continue to flourish

PRS numbers are shrinking and people are looking at other formats to fix the problem.

Training is growth, training is an improvement, doing the same over poorly is never the answer, repetitiion can increase a score but does it really do anything else, especially if you change formats ?

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

Putting a training goal behind a stage gives it purpose vs pure entertainment.

Relying on the rifle system to make up the difference is attempting to buy a hit. Sure, you can buy any number of hits up to a point, but after that point, the better shooter will emerge. the better shooter is the one who trains and practices; there is no denying training and practice have value, to argue otherwise is foolish

Why does it need to have a training purpose to better measure the competitor as noted, but to adapt to increase in talent without disenfranchising the new shooters. it gives them a pipeline to work towards

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

It's funny how less than 1000 people can make it seem like it's taking the country by storm,

These numbers are actually pretty pathetic when you consider how much they repeat "grow the sport"

They have only grown a few people's pocketbooks, they get creative with the numbers adding in Europe or small stuff to puff it all up...

If I said to an advertiser i was asking $50k for sponsorship that my participation level was 1000 people each year they would laugh at me, I would be selling my training classes to sponsors and give them a better ROI as my students are usually just starting and will spend money

AirgunnerPCP · Sep 24, 2024

Lowlight said:
People like Bowling too, tons of leagues that continue to flourish

PRS numbers are shrinking and people are looking at other formats to fix the problem.

Training is growth, training is an improvement, doing the same over poorly is never the answer, repetitiion can increase a score but does it really do anything else, especially if you change formats ?

Yes bowling is a game/sport and so is PRS.

Is there data that shows Pro series PRS numbers shrinking? What was posted above shows growth. Admitabilty slow growth...

I don't get the logic behind your 3rd paragraph. If the repetition is increasing score isn't that an improvement? And if we're just talking about PRS who cares about applicability to other formats? Maybe I missed your point.

My perspective comes from someone who simply likes to compete and likes shooting long range rifles. Combining the 2 in a format like PRS is fun and provides a good outlet for competition. I don't hunt or am involved in any sort of combat so a lot of the "training" is irrelevant to me. I'm focused on getting the best score possible in the game. Personally I like to challenge myself and apply the fundamentals of marksmanship at all points during competition.

AirgunnerPCP · Sep 24, 2024

Lowlight said:
It's funny how less than 1000 people can make it seem like it's taking the country by storm,

These numbers are actually pretty pathetic when you consider how much they repeat "grow the sport"

They have only grown a few people's pocketbooks, they get creative with the numbers adding in Europe or small stuff to puff it all up...

If I said to an advertiser i was asking $50k for sponsorship that my participation level was 1000 people each year they would laugh at me, I would be selling my training classes to sponsors and give them a better ROI as my students are usually just starting and will spend money

I agree those numbers aren't inspiring. I wonder what those numbers look like for regional and rimfire series? I've been shooting prs matches for a couple years but just now this year bought a membership to regional and rimfire. The jump to pro is a lot more commitment so I have not done that.

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

Repetition puts you in a box... yes you can increase your score by doing the same thing over and over through repetition. It's called familiarity. However, if you change things, it requires a new set of repetitions vs simple adaption because you understand the mechanics.

If every stage has the same answer, a bag with a better rifle what are you learning, how to adapt that particular rifle to that bag in that situation. Change the rifle, change the prop, start over is what you are saying that as long as you have time to continue repeating yourself what does it matter ?

Doing it this way highlights the gear over the shooter.

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

On top of this, last year, I spoke to a PRS MD myself, and he said he is seeing a 3 year burnout with most shooters.

The turnover is HUGE, why no value, no return on investment, nothing but what you said above, I like to shoot, I like to compete, but you are also pressing rimfire... why

Less commitment to do the same thing, the cost in Rimfire is smaller for you to do the same thing while still getting your competition fix, minus the centerfire costs. In Centerfire you are wasting time and money

AirgunnerPCP · Sep 24, 2024

Lowlight said:
Putting a training goal behind a stage gives it purpose vs pure entertainment.

Relying on the rifle system to make up the difference is attempting to buy a hit. Sure, you can buy any number of hits up to a point, but after that point, the better shooter will emerge. the better shooter is the one who trains and practices; there is no denying training and practice have value, to argue otherwise is foolish

Why does it need to have a training purpose to better measure the competitor as noted, but to adapt to increase in talent without disenfranchising the new shooters. it gives them a pipeline to work towards

I suppose here is where we need to define the training we're referring to. In my mind training is dependent on your purpose. Are you training to better compete, to become a better marksman, to better hunt, etc.? There is some crossover between these categories but it's not all the same.

Your point about new shooters is a good one and one I agree with. Seeing the reliance on gear could put off new shooters however there is a basic level of gear needed to effectively shoot long range anyway. The saying is "you can't buy points" is proven when you see guys stumble through a stage with a ton of gear they don't know how to be effective with. Part of being a good shooter, to me, is knowing how to use the gear at your disposal in a particular situation to maximize your hit percentage.

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

Rimfire is 10x easier to manage,

Smaller ranges: The Average range in the US is 200 yards, which is perfect for a complete rimfire competition, not so much centerfire

They set the minimum price for entry in centerfire at $5000, $2500 rifle and $2500scope is the advertised max for production class, that means everyone who reads that with a $3000 complete rifle is staying home. Nobody at Cabelas buying a Tikka Tac A1 is considering it unless a friend convinces them, There is pipeline for the Sub $1000 rifle crowd to show up unless we are talking rimfire

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

See you just answered my point, guys with money but no clue embarrass themselves all the time, true, why is there no official pipeline to teach you upfront

The saying is "you can't buy points" is proven when you see guys stumble through a stage with a ton of gear they don't know how to be effective with.

AirgunnerPCP · Sep 24, 2024

Lowlight said:
On top of this, last year, I spoke to a PRS MD myself, and he said he is seeing a 3 year burnout with most shooters.

The turnover is HUGE, why no value, no return on investment, nothing but what you said above, I like to shoot, I like to compete, but you are also pressing rimfire... why

Less commitment to do the same thing, the cost in Rimfire is smaller for you to do the same thing while still getting your competition fix, minus the centerfire costs. In Centerfire you are wasting time and money

That turnover for sure is a problem if the sport wants to expand. Maybe it is because folks don't see the value in it.

Honestly your point about wasting time and money is irrelevant from my perspective. Shooting is a hobby from my point of view. It's not a primary source of income and is done for entertainment purposes. I reckon that that's the same for a majority of PRS shooters. I'm there to have fun and challenge myself. If those things are fulfilled then the resources expended are not wasted.

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

How is it you can have a shooter with the means and desire to compete doesn't have a proper pipeline to learn his gear and equipment up front?

Forget the pockets of competitors (cliques) who bring a friend and walk him through; I am talking to the guy who sees this on YT and decides, man, I want to try that... hops in his Beemer, buys the best, looks the fool, is he coming back to look stupid again? Fuck No, no man is going to keep getting his dick kicked in unless you give him a method to fix that issue... or support his journey

Left alone, with no support, 50% will walk away after being embarrassed.

See I talk to students, I have students every week that tell me, I am here to compete. I build a foundation and tell everyone after put whatever house on top you want, I gave you a plumb and level foundation, PRS, 3 Gun, ELR, any house you want, but you have to practice.

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

I've been saying this for years,

Where is the official PRS media teaching you how to navigate the matches, forget the stages, how to get started, and what you need to be successful, where is the answer guides

This started in 2012, it's 2024, give me links to 4 new, relevant official PRS media that explains how to begin ?

What works, what doesn't, where to go, how to act? Hell, they don't even have official Range Officers. There is no Standard Range Officer Training, no MD education; it's a handshake if they like you, and then if a match has drama, they just shut it down. There is no Officiating that becomes your problem, or they say that its up to the MD with no standards for conduct. Why stuff spirals out of control, they have to just turn it all off to get past it only to be repeated later

They want to be the PROs, but nothing they do is professional

kthomas · Sep 24, 2024

Lowlight said:
I've been saying this for years,

Where is the official PRS media teaching you how to navigate the matches, forget the stages, how to get started, and what you need to be successful, where is the answer guides

This started in 2012, it's 2024, give me links to 4 new, relevant official PRS media that explains how to begin ?

What works, what doesn't, where to go, how to act? Hell, they don't even have official Range Officers. There is no Standard Range Officer Training, no MD education; it's a handshake if they like you, and then if a match has drama, they just shut it down. There is no Officiating that becomes your problem, or they say that its up to the MD with no standards for conduct. Why stuff spirals out of control, they have to just turn it all off to get past it only to be repeated later

They want to be the PROs, but nothing they do is professional

All pretty salient points.

AirgunnerPCP · Sep 24, 2024

Lowlight said:
I've been saying this for years,

Where is the official PRS media teaching you how to navigate the matches, forget the stages, how to get started, and what you need to be successful, where is the answer guides

This started in 2012, it's 2024, give me links to 4 new, relevant official PRS media that explains how to begin ?

What works, what doesn't, where to go, how to act? Hell, they don't even have official Range Officers. There is no Standard Range Officer Training, no MD education; it's a handshake if they like you, and then if a match has drama, they just shut it down. There is no Officiating that becomes your problem, or they say that its up to the MD with no standards for conduct. Why stuff spirals out of control, they have to just turn it all off to get past it only to be repeated later

They want to be the PROs, but nothing they do is professional

Agree 100%. The PRS organization seems pretty disorganized considering how long they've had to mature.

mmlook · Sep 24, 2024

Lowlight said:
How is it you can have a shooter with the means and desire to compete doesn't have a proper pipeline to learn his gear and equipment up front?

Forget the pockets of competitors (cliques) who bring a friend and walk him through; I am talking to the guy who sees this on YT and decides, man, I want to try that... hops in his Beemer, buys the best, looks the fool, is he coming back to look stupid again? Fuck No, no man is going to keep getting his dick kicked in unless you give him a method to fix that issue... or support his journey

Left alone, with no support, 50% will walk away after being embarrassed.

See I talk to students, I have students every week that tell me, I am here to compete. I build a foundation and tell everyone after put whatever house on top you want, I gave you a plumb and level foundation, PRS, 3 Gun, ELR, any house you want, but you have to practice.

unfortunately very true

for every 1 PRS competitor,
there's at least 5-10 friends who are interested and want to try competing
and another 20-50 friends or friends of friends who are just interested in long range precision, not competition, just long range shooting

but, there are no good avenues for these 25-60 people to get exposed to what PRS competitors actually do on match weekends

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

These are super easy fixes; they only require 2 things to succeed.

An Imagination...

The Desire to Improve.

Something is missing, and I want to say both of those things, they only work to improve their bank accounts and not the product for the end user. When we came out of Covid there should have been a new set of rules, a new set of stages and a new set of ideas to move the needle, none of that happened because they were making money first and foremost and they are lazy second.

jthor · Sep 24, 2024

Still better training than service rifle.

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

Okay... deflection is an answer.

They claim to be the NASCAR of the precision rifle world, Nascar never rests, they have training pipelines for not just new but minority racers. They constantly tinker with the product, tons of talk after Bristol this past weekend; short track racing needs a fix, and there are the same discussions.

There are plenty of other models that work... you don't have to be service rifle.

Palma is dying too, we. can talk about that.

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

Also,

Guys are starting to clean matches, that should be clue number 1...

Lightning8 · Sep 24, 2024

I like PRS the way it is - I shoot Regional PRS and PRS22 events in SE and Atlantic. I shoot a few Pro events in SE and Atlantic Regions. Honestly have no complaints.

PRS Pro 2 day events cost significantly more - match fee, hotel, food, travel, twice the ammo, twice the barrel wear, more time away from home; therefore, I choose to shoot more 1 day events. I suspect that I am not alone in choosing more Regional vs Pro.

The people who do not like PRS need to develop a new and improved rifle competition event. To their credit, NRL offers a clear alternative to PRS focused on a more hunting like scenario.

This "need something different than PRS" thread comes up regularly - I am waiting for someone to offer an alternative.

Lightning8 · Sep 24, 2024

Lowlight said:
Also,

Guys are starting to clean matches, that should be clue number 1...

High match scores = better rifles, better scopes, better projectiles, better support bags, frankly better shooters. Solution = more movement and smaller targets. Problem is that as matches increase complexity to challenge the top pros - that match course of fire humbles new shooters. Eventually may need to add some "new shooter-midpack shooter" only events to grow the sport.

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

Why not just have a few MDs change it up...

I started this in 2002, Rifles Only, where I worked who really started all this began in these matches in 1998...

We never rested, we used military operations to create stages, etc.. the first SHC was 2002, 10 years before the PRS came into being. Before them, there were other leagues that failed.

I have no interest in starting a new league; there are plenty of leagues, the issue is the lack of imagination because of guys like the above who enjoy being mediocre

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

Lightning8 said:
High match scores = better rifles, better scopes, better projectiles, better support bags, frankly better shooters. Solution = more movement and smaller targets. Problem is that as matches increase complexity to challenge the top pros - that match course of fire humbles new shooters. Eventually may need to add some "new shooter-midpack shooter" only events to grow the sport.

Or change the target package ... two plates solve the problem, big and small

If the answer has been reduced to the same thing regardless you are failing

Lightning8 · Sep 24, 2024

mmlook said:
unfortunately very true

for every 1 PRS competitor,
there's at least 5-10 friends who are interested and want to try competing
and another 20-50 friends or friends of friends who are just interested in long range precision, not competition, just long range shooting

but, there are no good avenues for these 25-60 people to get exposed to what PRS competitors actually do on match weekends

In GA and SC, there are a few "outlaw" events that serve as feeders into PRS. You can easily shoot one "outlaw" PRS event per month oriented to bring new shooters into the sport.

You could just as easily insert "pistol match" or "shotgun event" for PRS in the quote above. Lots of "I want to try it" but never get off the bench in rifle, pistol, shotgun, offshore fishing, mountain biking...........................

mmlook · Sep 24, 2024

Lightning8 said:
Solution = more movement and smaller targets.

this is not the only way to make a match harder

this is the lazy way

Lightning8 · Sep 24, 2024

Lowlight said:
Or change the target package ... two plates solve the problem, big and small

If the answer has been reduced to the same thing regardless you are failing

Actually some matches are using "x" number of average size plates and "y" number of small plates to separate the pack while still giving new guys a chance

Lightning8 · Sep 24, 2024

mmlook said:
this is not the only way to make a match harder

this is the lazy way

Love to hear your thoughts on a better solution.

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

How about a handicap, you can do that with Gun Numbers

The better the gun number the smaller the plate, you can reduce a plate and gun to MPH of wind...

6mm shoot a .4 plate, 308s shoot a .8 plate, based on the wind drift, you can absolutely handicap it like golf if you want too

Lightning8 · Sep 24, 2024

Lowlight said:
How about a handicap, you can do that with Gun Numbers

The better the gun number the smaller the plate, you can reduce a plate and gun to MPH of wind...

6mm shoot a .4 plate, 308s shoot a .8 plate, based on the wind drift, you can absolutely handicap it like golf if you want too

Already have Gas Gun and Tactical opportunities - not many takers. there are a few dedicated 308 (and 223) competitors.

Is 308 innovative in today's world? Innovation may be 25s with heavies - the sport continues to evolve

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

What about divisions, A, B, C...

That solves the prize table issues too, A gets their own table, as does B, and C,

There are no real rules for Open, anything goes, so new Open people compete with old Open People there is no balance or breakdown in skill, only Open or Not open... What shooting sport doesn't have limits on equipment ? Or balance the field by equipment and skill or seniority, no real qualifiers just everyone in the same bucket.

You're missing the point, the other divisions are ignored, I can point to the winner of a tac class in PRS that was literally ignored and is often ignored, they only give weight to open shooters and because the other "divisions" are so poorly supported nobody bothers.

There are more 308s in the world than 6mm comp guns, but if everything revolves around Open, of course the other stuff is weak.,

mmlook · Sep 24, 2024

Lightning8 said:
Love to hear your thoughts on a better solution.

I'm actually working on a data base for match books from most/all the PRS pro series matches over the past few years
- basically as many as I can get my hands on

but here's a few ways to make a match harder, instead of just reducing target size and increasing movement
1. Big small - like mentioned, this isn't a new concept. Ryan Kerr was doing this in 2018
2. Larger swings/pan
3. Target sequence
4. Props that aren't rock solid
5. Off hand/unsupported shooting

there's lots of other ways if you utilize the range to it's fullest

Lightning8 · Sep 24, 2024

Lowlight said:
What about divisions, A, B, C...

That solves the prize table issues too, A gets their own table, as does B, and C,

There are no real rules for Open, anything goes, so new Open people compete with old Open People there is balance or breakdown in skill, only Open or Not open... What shooting sport doesn't have limits on equipment ? Or balance the field by equipment and skill or seniority, no real qualifiers just everyone in the same bucket.

You're missing the point, the other divisions are ignored, I can point to the winner of a tac class in PRS that was literally ignored and is often ignored, they only give weight to open shooters and because the other "divisions" are so poorly supported nobody bothers.

There are more 308s in the world than 6mm comp guns, but if everything revolves around Open, of course the other stuff is weak.,

Sporting Clays - minimal limits to equipment - $600 Remington 1100 competes with $10,000+ over/unders.
USPSA - Open is minimal limitations - power factor and minimum bore size
USPSA - Production started with limitations - think stock Glock - but now is "Open lite" - example of how not to run "Production" or "Limited".

308 - how many people want to compete in PRS with 308? Apparently not many as there is a place for them and almost no one choose to shoot 308. You point out yourself that few choose to compete in Tac or Gas Gun.

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

Again,

The Grow the Sport Lie.... how do you grow the sport if you ignore the average shooter out there ?

If the primary focus is on the rockstars in Open, you isolate and alienate your core customer. The little guy is the bigger fish in all this, the working man, the weekend golf guy who just wants to get away. If you dont cultivate that group to certain degree, focusing more on the top 10%, you have the turnover, the weak participation, the fact nobody really shoots the series as necessary or as designed except the same 300 people, that is the real number the PRS is supported by about 350 people who do it often, weak sauce.

Lightning8 · Sep 24, 2024

mmlook said:
I'm actually working on a data base for match books from most/all the PRS pro series matches over the past few years
- basically as many as I can get my hands on

but here's a few ways to make a match harder, instead of just reducing target size and increasing movement
1. Big small - like mentioned, this isn't a new concept. Ryan Kerr was doing this in 2018
2. Larger swings/pan
3. Target sequence
4. Props that aren't rock solid
5. Off hand/unsupported shooting

there's lots of other ways if you utilize the range to it's fullest

1. Big small - like mentioned, this isn't a new concept. Ryan Kerr was doing this in 2018 - that is being seen more
2. Larger swings/pan - on East Coast "square ranges" - tough to do but being tried within constraints of facilities
3. Target sequence - yep, see that
4. Props that aren't rock solid - that is why rear tripod popular (that is innovative, right?)
5. Off hand/unsupported shooting - just no

Lowlight · Sep 24, 2024

Because they are told they are stupid or wasting their time using a 308, the culture of the PRS aint anything but an MPA in 6mm, if the entire field is telling that won't work, you'll never have participation

This is a dumb argument, they do everything to prevent you from participating with off the shelf stuff, and then use the lack of support as evidence it doesn't work, but when someone tries it, they are pushed off to the side.

When a 308 guy shows up and the Open guy shooting the 308 has a 26LBS gun with a 28"+ barrel are you coming back ? What are the rules that balance the field ?

308 - how many people want to compete in PRS with 308? Apparently not many as there is a place for them and almost no one choose to shoot 308. You point out yourself that few choose to compete in Tac or Gas Gun.

Lightning8 · Sep 24, 2024

Lowlight said:
Again,

The Grow the Sport Lie.... how do you grow the sport if you ignore the average shooter out there ?

If the primary focus is on the rockstars in Open, you isolate and alienate your core customer. The little guy is the bigger fish in all this, the working man, the weekend golf guy who just wants to get away. If you dont cultivate that group to certain degree, focusing more on the top 10%, you have the turnover, the weak participation, the fact nobody really shoots the series as necessary or as designed except the same 300 people, that is the real number the PRS is supported by about 350 people who do it often, weak sauce.

I am in the 500+ on the PRO rankings of PRS so more than 300. How many Americans can shoot multiple 2 day events per year? There is cost and ability to travel (time). Are you saying that every club golfer in US should compete in the highest echelons of golf competition?

mmlook · Sep 24, 2024

Lightning8 said:
4. Props that aren't rock solid - that is why rear tripod popular (that is innovative, right?)
5. Off hand/unsupported shooting - just no

4. you dont have to shoot tripod rear for everything wobbly, if the CoF and prop is designed properly it should be a calculated risk.
- look at the pipe/log stage at Prentice's match
5. I've had this discussion with Stiner at length, and a few other east coast guys
- All good PRS shooters can shoot offhand/unsupported
- All decent rifle shooters can shoot offhand/unsupported

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