So over the Contrived and Repetitive Nature of Stages today

[Lowlight]

Back in the day for 6 plus years there was no other caliber but 308 used, I can tell you the first person to show up with a 65, the first guy to try a 6mm (he used a 243)

We did all this with a 308 for years

 

[FatBoy]

Though nowhere near as big or “organized” as PRS in general, matches like Mammoth and Legion Sniper for teams (bolt and carbine) and smaller run and guns like Waco, Legion/Tenet and the Gun Runs have popped up IMO to fill some of what you’re referring to, Frank. (Run and gun being 90+% individual, 10% team and largely semi-auto). Not so much in the pipeline aspect that you’ve just touched on, but to address some of the ridiculousness in the equipment, as well as having blind stages helps keep some semblance of normalcy to the kit.

Once you have to carry the shit you’re going to use for the day, it self selected what is not really needed. Not necessarily the friendliest for sponsors though, as the focus is on physical ability and marksmanship under mental and physical stress.

That’s said, these types of matches are tough on people physically so having a “2 Gun” approach to some long range matches (My impression of PRS) allows some who may not be physically able to do a movement with their gear the ability to come out and compete. I think there is a place for that.

So what is the “fix”? Blind stages? Weight and bag limitations? A classification system like NRA uses?

As to stage setup, there is only so much you can do within a range fan and firing point. Shoot one location long enough and it’s going to get repetitive. You can easily add stress, but the stage design is going to be somewhat limited I would think. I’m not sure this is fixable on an established range.

 

[FatBoy]

Back in the day for 6 plus years there was no other caliber but 308 used, I can tell you the first person to show up with a 65, the first guy to try a 6mm (he used a 243)

We did all this with a 308 for years

Terry?

 

[Lightning8]

Because they are told they are stupid or wasting their time using a 308, the culture of the PRS aint anything but an MPA in 6mm, if the entire field is telling that won't work, you'll never have participation

This is a dumb argument, they do everything to prevent you from participating with off the shelf stuff, and then use the lack of support as evidence it doesn't work, but when someone tries it, they are pushed off to the side.

When a 308 guy shows up and the Open guy shooting the 308 has a 26LBS gun with a 28"+ barrel are you coming back ? What are the rules that balance the field ?

I saw the same thing in Sporting Clays. I traveled the SE competing. Shooting partner shot his best score with Remington 1100 - he HAD to have a Kreighoff. He CHOSE to spend all that money on $$ over/under. Saw the same thing in USPSA - buddy wanted to compete and Production was available - I begged him to run a Glock34 for a season - went to first match and saw the Open Race Guns - he HAD to have one. His choice.

PRS is same way - there are only a handful of competitors who choose 308, Gas Gun, etc. No one makes them - it is a fact that competitors want the cool toys.

People on Snipers Hide can wax poetic about the good old days of 308 and the match formats they prefer - but the competitors seem to have spoken.

I live in MPA 6mm country here in GA and I run a Foundation in 25x47.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

IMO, the real barrier for this type of sport is the lack of spectators. That's what drives($$$) most sports. And I honesty don't see a road to making it spectator friendly entertainment unless you look at the competitive bass fishing model. The only spectators at a match are the other participants and occasionally a couple of onlookers who are generally just observing with intent to participate at some point. But unlike bass fishing/fishing in general, it's extremely difficult for your average Joe to go out and shoot any distance beyond 200 yards and why the .22 model may be the only way to make this work.

 

[Lowlight]

Sure there are more than 300 total, but most of those numbers are 1 or two matches only never really Ranking

Keith Baker shot 35 matches, he is sponsored, but also, you are competing against him 1-1, 10+ match people a year... are competiing again 1 or 2 match a year people

Please stop with the stage design limitations... that is weak, lacking of imagination

You can combine stages, use two slots for one, you can still move them forward more than 3 steps, you can still create lists and challenges, use the Rifles Only KD (square range) area the same as the open spaces and honestly if you range can't meet the requirements why have it run a centerfire match ? Do we need 38 places do the exact same thing ?

I could fix a square range in a minute, regardless of the hate and the shoot the messenger BS the SHC still ranks as some of the best matches. SHC was going from 2002 to 2021, we never had the complaints like this

It's funny, people like doing boring shit every week cause it gets them out, but once you say it could be done better, the excuses start to flow

I'm not making a new league, but it doesn't require one, it only requires one MD to think outside the box.

 

[Lightning8]

I am going to load some gamer 25x47 for my PRS match I look forward to attending this weekend.

 

[Lowlight]

Lack of Spectators,

I was at the IPRF, the only media was Shooter Mindset... there are no choices for media

The Owners of the PRS have new houses that are bigger than yours, new $100k+ Cars for everyone, Huge Boats and Fancy Hunts and Vacations, sorry the money is tight

You usually have to start off paying for media to prove it's worth, after that it pays you... none of that happned

Air Rifle is on TV, I saw one from Utah Air doing a mini competition in a warehouse, even NBC sports shows air rifle, but you have to pitch them, they don't show up with money at your door

 

[Lowlight]

I am going to load some gamer 25x47 for my PRS match I look forward to attending this weekend.

I like that combination, you should teach people about it,

Last week the IPRF guys at my range training were hunting dasher brass every few second, bet you barely sweat losing a piece of x47 brass

 

[Lowlight]

I shoot in some form every 3 days usally I enjoy it, I teach weekly too, enjoy that... i do a lot to support people and the sport
I drove 4 hours to the IPRF just to say hi and visit, where a bunch of them don't like me... so I was still there...

I even gave an impromptu wind class and spent 45 minutes showing a group of people the Kraft Quick Wind stuff... I put a case of books on the prize table and 5 packages of stickers, just to leave when it got started

I find it odd the push back to do things a bit better, vs being contrived day in and out, truly mediocre is being promoted sad

 

[Long Range 338]

Speaking as a complete novice PRS type shooter who has never and never will be on a podium, I do enjoy PRS matches a couple times per year. The constant turn offs are the ego driven jackasses arguing over every point (not that it helps their placement) and also the repetitive nature of the stages. I’ve also experienced stages that were too difficult and just flat out ruined the fun or learning opportunity that could be had. The difficult stages are usually very small targets on unstable barricades and the reasoning is that the top 3 guys need it to make it a challenge. Fair enough but those of us that are simply enthusiasts don’t enjoy the contrived, repetitive nature that comes with the so called challenging stages.

I do constantly hear other shooters who are interested in some sort of challenge and they mostly want to try the NRL Hunter type matches. Certainly the NRL Hunter matches appear to be more accessible to the recreational competitor who wants it to correlate to a real life situation they would experience.

The field style matches do seem very interesting and in my experience are more enjoyable with a better sense of accomplishment to the average non professional shooter.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Lack of Spectators,

I was at the IPRF, the only media was Shooter Mindset... there are no choices for media

The Owners of the PRS have new houses that are bigger than yours, new $100k+ Cars for everyone, Huge Boats and Fancy Hunts and Vacations, sorry the money is tight

You usually have to start off paying for media to prove it's worth, after that it pays you... none of that happned

Air Rifle is on TV, I saw one from Utah Air doing a mini competition in a warehouse, even NBC sports shows air rifle, but you have to pitch them, they don't show up with money at your door

Due to the lethalness of bullets and the risk of any type of negligent/accidental discharge makes this extremely difficult to bring in spectators, hence my bass fishing model. The vast majority of of spectators are watching it on a screen. Your air rifle reference makes sense as it can be done indoors at short distance. And would probably easier to monetize vs. PRS/long distance rim fire. 22 may be doable but there's still the risk of injury or death for onsite spectators. I like the golf analogy because it's actually quite similar to long range PRS type shooting but the lack of access to shooting long distance vs. golf is a huge barrier to get spectator excited about watching and then getting involved. i.e. buying sponsor's products. You may be able to approach it much like the outdoor hunting shows which has proven to be lucrative for sponsors/manufactures.

 

[Lowlight]

Field Matches out west here are SO MUCH better...

Find it, range it, engage it... with real rules and gear limitations.

Guys often fail just finding the targets, real-world stuff right there.

Even if NRL Hunter seems equally repetitive, the field nature of it changes the look; it's not the same.

Back to spectating, you can make it safe, lots of sports have limited safety, ever seen a rally car screw up into people sitting a foot of the course ?

again, imagniation is the answer, we have SO many tools for media today, you have unlimited opportunities, they just won't try beause they don't know anyone to lean on... they go to what they know vs taking a risk to try something new

 

[mmlook]

Due to the lethalness of bullets and the risk of any type of negligent/accidental discharge makes this extremely difficult to bring in spectators, hence my bass fishing model. The vast majority of of spectators are watching it on a screen. Your air rifle reference makes sense as it can be done indoors at short distance. And would probably easier to monetize vs. PRS/long distance rim fire. 22 may be doable but there's still the risk of injury or death for onsite spectators. I like the golf analogy because it's actually quite similar to long range PRS type shooting but the lack of access to shooting long distance vs. golf is a huge barrier to get spectator excited about watching and then getting involved. i.e. buying sponsor's products. You may be able to approach it much like the outdoor hunting shows which has proven to be lucrative for sponsors/manufactures.

Golf is probably the closest parallel that could sort of be modeled

Day 1 - Qualifying for non pro's
Day 2 - Pro Practice - replace this with a 1-day regional match
Day 3 - Pro/Am - Allow sponsors to shoot with the "Pro's" and get 1-1 advice
Day 4 - Qualifier
Day 5 - Finals

to me, the only way it works, is if 50%+ of your spectators are there to shoot in some capacity

 

[Lowlight]

It's actually down to data,

Knowing the numbers and then mining those numbers to promote the parts that are not working

They ignore the reality for the ease of doing business, it's really about logistics and moving people around properly.

See like i said, the pipeline to success, you have to move people from where they are, to where they NEED to go vs want to go in some cases.

Golf is very close because they can handicap a competitor to work alongside a pro without the problems we see. The biggest is disenfranchised shooters, if you go expecting a certain outcome, and when you arrive if none of the exists because you don't know, you'll get a bad taste.

The way things are run is definitely a problem, and those feelings are real, even if they appear weak. You need a model that makes sense and has a proper path to move forward. Those changes should absolutely be minor on the competitor so the people who like it, dont; really see a change beyond a stage design, which can be invisible in a lot of ways, if I said shoot A, B, C, or C, B, A, it's the same but different, if i said, Shoot Target A twice and B Twice with it being 1/2 the size that is an invisible change.

the pipeline matters when you want to grow something, it;s all logistics

 

[Lowlight]

I get it, most lower level competitors don't give a shit, ignorance is bliss and if you like what you are doing, you'll never see a reason to change.

But in the next 2 weeks, someone will reach out, they always do, i have supported a lot of MDs out there, many never see it as we both know if the Admin of the PRS finds out I am helping they will tax them in a negative way. So I say very little when I help these guys.

I competed a lot until recently, i have a couple of issues that prevent me from doing it to a level that makes me feel comfortable. Nobody will let me, be me, I have to be something else, so when I do compete I use a fake name now. It helps. Just the way the cookie crumbles, but how many of you big time PRS competition guys have had others walk to you at a match and say, Damn I saw you were here and I just wanted to beat you, that is my reality, everything do, good or bad is judged on a scale few could match.

But also Chris competes, a lot, and wins steel a lot, I am on the range with him weekly. We teach together and he mentors a lot of NRL and PRS guys, so I see it all. Trying to flex saying I have a 25x47 is comical, sure seen it, seen 22GT, 22 Creedmoor, too... big deal. I see it all, the 153s going 2575, the fast, the small, the short, I see it all. My 224V load of the 85.5gr going 3025fps is awesome too, 6.8 to 1k, and it's a 7MPH gun in the wind, no recoil and 6k barrel life, but that 25 cal stuff is fun too,

See back in the day, when I promoted these comps and everyone Leaned on SH we talked about everything. Remember the PRS started on Sniper's Hide, it was because of Sniper's Hide and it was flushed out on this site. I didn't like what they were doing, so they ran away to hide from the criticism, but before this, I was the Marketing Arm of this stuff. Make no mistake, none of it survived without Sniper's Hide, I was the mouthpiece promoting this daily

We talked about the new calibers, how to manage it, what to do, when to do it, and how to do it

Know your history...

 

[louu]

@Lowlight if you don't like how prs is now your really gona hate it in 10 years, probably like 5 years. There's gona be scopes that do automatic drop compensation and probably wind as well. Automatic triggers might be a thing to meaning when you get on target the gun will fire. This will always be a money spending game.

 

[Lowlight]

Nah,
You completely miss the point, I am not anti-technology, not by any means, you're completely lost,

I am talking about everything else,

PS, I already have an MD asking for help, so apparently you genius "competitors" have no clue, big difference between showing up to match and shooting it vs actually understanding how to create a system that works...