So over the Contrived and Repetitive Nature of Stages today

[Baron23]

This is what I’ve been thinking lately. I’m thinking maybe of doing something like we used to do. A $50 practice session, focused on skills and practicing with your rifle. I’m no instructor, but I’ve a bit of experience that can be transferred. We also have some solid competitive shooters that I’ll have to try and entice attendance and assist.

This attitude is amply displayed by many PRS shooters. I’ve slowly phased it out despite disagreeing with the sentiment. Sadly.

The practice session is a GREAT idea, IMO.

 

[ForgeValley]

This is what I’ve been thinking lately. I’m thinking maybe of doing something like we used to do. A $50 practice session, focused on skills and practicing with your rifle. I’m no instructor, but I’ve a bit of experience that can be transferred. We also have some solid competitive shooters that I’ll have to try and entice attendance and assist.

This attitude is amply displayed by many PRS shooters. I’ve slowly phased it out despite disagreeing with the sentiment. Sadly.

Hard to offhand a 23 lb prs rifle.

 

[mmlook]

Hard to offhand a 23 lb prs rifle.

not really,
and no one forces anyone to make a rifle 23lbs

that’s a choice, so you gain an advantage on stages where props are solid

most of the top guys are in the 20-22lb range these days

 

[JR1200W3]

I started shooting long range rifle competitions(not Fclass or service rifle) in 2007. Way before PRS existed. I shot Jhuskey's rifleman's challenge, the Benning Sniper Comp, and helped design the first USASOC sniper comp. We live in a way better world than what competitive, practical, long range, action shooting existed in 2007. After a couple of straight, back to back years overseas, I was able to start competing again in 2016. One thing I always appreciate is the opportunity of competitive shooting competitions locally. When you can shoot a match each day of the weekend, 4 weekends of the month, that's nice to have.

PRS did frustrate me a lot when I came back to the states. It was pretty ignorant. And what I mean is it's like a farm boy in Nebraska bought a Savage and started shooting off a fence post in a corner field. Random , nonsensical, and without grounding or reality. And that's what most PRS stages are modeled from. Having been a professional instructor there is a sequence of fundamentals and skills that can be taught/ learned. The guys that ran PRS by 2016 clearly had no background in that. Most of the people that attended matches had little to no professional instruction, couldn't speak intelligently about rifle marksmanship fundamentals, and didn't know the why behind a lot of facets of long range shooting. So much OJT going on. People just learning as they went and making things up. It kind of fascinated me and rubbed me the wrong way all at the same time.

I come from a background where instruction of an advanced skill is dissected through didactics. We take an individual task and break into parts. Isolation drills. We isolate the parts and teach, from the fundamentals, how to master each part and then assemble them all back into the total individual task. Culmination drill. It is a way to teach to an industrial level. To create a baseline capability in a large group of people, barring the bottom 25'ish % and the top 5'ish %. We use it to teach freefall parachuting, skiing, marksmanship with a pistol, carbine, and long gun. PRS has none of this. No pedigree. It is a mutt that was abandoned along the highway and learned to thrive. I used to debate with some of the top shooters in my area. The PRS Barricade skills stage. I asked them, what exactly are the skills this stage tests. The answer was shooting fast and hitting targets from a wobbly position. Classic PRS answer.

@lash the shooting offhand is a great example. There are situations where shooting offhand is imminent, ubiquitous, required, and practical. And there are guns that are built and suited to do that. Shooting a 66% IPSC at 300yds with a 18lb rifle built for 1200yd precision isn't practical, imminent, or ubiquitous. It's ignorant, luck/ trick shooting. I remember trying to teach a team of guys sling supported shooting and they had suppressed MK13's. I had them shooting slung, sitting and they were struggling. It's one thing to sling up a 10lb, unsuppressed, 24" barreled rifle. It's not real practical to sling up a 26" barreled, suppressed 300WM. And that's the some of the problem with PRS. The contrived-ness. Let's shoot standing offhand with a 20lb gun built for shooting prone on a distant target at the edge of practical small arms range, that demonstrate zero need for a straight up standing tall, immediate snap shot from low ready. It's just turkey-shoot type of crap. Trick shooting where in reality luck shots rules the day.

There have been some advancements via PRS tho. Evolution begins with accidental mutations that are advantageous. PRS has pushed practical, action shooting of long range rifles more than anything else has. And it has made what was once the domain of military snipers pretty much public knowledge. But the best advancements and learning of what we used to call "alternate positions" have come from PRS. Absolutely blew it up. It is amazing what we do now in PRS competition compared to 2007. If you gloss over small details like target sizes) distance, round counts per stage, and stage times we've been doing the same stuff for the last 15 years but in truth the complexity, speed, and target sizes are way more difficult. The hardest match I've ever shot in my life was a rimfire match this last year. We shot 15rd stages with 4 position changes, on multiple targets (to include a mover on one stage) in 90 seconds. I felt like I was flying a fighter jet adjusting parallax, dope, leads, wind, and positions.

At the end of the day, I don't hold the owners of PRS or a lot of MDs in high regard but I do think overall it's positive and a net gain for long-range, practical, action shooting. I absolutely enjoy "renegade" matches and field matches more. I think unknown distance/ blind stage matches are the next advancement and PRS's Achilles heel. Matches like the steel safari where it's at. While I prefer a ribeye, sometimes a cheeseburger from Drifters hits the spot so I still shoot local PRS matches because I work too much and prioritize my marriage and job to travel around the country snobbishly cherry picking my favorite flavor of matches. Just happy I can shoot 3gun, USPSA, PRS, and AR matches every weekend. When I retire like @Lowlight I'll travel to more matches and get more judgemental.

 

[cas6969]

I never shot PRS, but I stopped competing when it stopped being fun.

 

[beetroot]

IMO, the real barrier for this type of sport is the lack of spectators. That's what drives($$$) most sports. And I honesty don't see a road to making it spectator friendly entertainment unless you look at the competitive bass fishing model. The only spectators at a match are the other participants and occasionally a couple of onlookers who are generally just observing with intent to participate at some point. But unlike bass fishing/fishing in general, it's extremely difficult for your average Joe to go out and shoot any distance beyond 200 yards and why the .22 model may be the only way to make this work.

A lot of sports are really not conducive to spectators.
I watch a fair bit of the Olympics and a lot of sports were just not that interesting to watch.

Even watching after match footage in a 20min video on YouTube, shooting sports are just not interesting to watch.
Maybe something like the Brutality matches are interesting, but like hell am I going to sit and watch 2 days of live feed for this type of match.

Although, some people do watch a watch 5 days of cricket in a test match…..

 

[beetroot]

Surely PRS is just one discipline among many, sure it has moved to a place that is pretty boring and repetitive but it’s not like F class/bench rest is any more exciting.

NRL hunter, mammoth, run and gun etc has all come up to replace the parts PRS has left behind.
Which seems like the only way to really fix the problem, let PRS do their own thing and the free market will cater to what they leave behind.

Personally I don’t like the barricade benchrest format, thankfully the shoots I do mix it up and include run and gun, and field type events to keep things interesting.

As pointed out 22lr is really what is growing the sport, just like with the Olympics (summer with ISSF disciplines and winter with biathlon) 22lr (and air rifle) is all that’s done as centre fire is comparatively far to difficult for many ranges to accomodate.
It’ll be interesting to see how the 2025 IPRF 22lr comp goes and how that compares to this 2024 one.

 

[BurtG]

Which seems like the only way to really fix the problem, let PRS do their own thing and the free market will cater to what they leave behind.

But I’ve heard that PRS will threaten to take away your prs Match if you hold other matches at your range.
Not sure if true.

If true adds to the negatives for them

 

[Tx_Aggie]

But I’ve heard that PRS will threaten to take away your prs Match if you hold other matches at your range.
Not sure if true.

If true adds to the negatives for them

As far as I know this is no longer true, and hasn't been the case for a few years. I shot an NRL Hunter match this year at a range that also hosted a PRS club series and two Pro Series (2-day) PRS matches this year.

But then a lot of the stuff that gets repeated about PRS on this site has either changed or was never entirely true.

 

[FatBoy]

But I’ve heard that PRS will threaten to take away your prs Match if you hold other matches at your range.
Not sure if true.

I don’t know either. I understand caring what a match is called if you are working towards a ranking within that system (NRA is no different) but in almost all matches I shoot (not PRS) the lions share of competitors are out there to test themselves, be around like minded people and talk some shit (at least I am). I tend to shoot matches where there is no prize table, the reward is in competing, learning where I’m weak and maybe placing well. (Refer back to shit talking)

Maybe I’m old and short sighted. I still have yet to shoot a real PRS match, and I complained about the format and lack of reality for years but I think what I missed is that for MOST shooters, it’s just a fun game. Not training or some missing skill set they are honing. Just a game they can utilize their expensive kit in, and that’s ok. Edit: where I tend to notice the biggest difference of opinion in match format and value is between those who served in combat arms, and those who didn’t.

When I look at it like a game, like Outlaw 2Gun matches, I see an opportunity for shooters to participate in a format that fits what/why they want to shoot. If they desire more, there are matches are behind developed and held by the very people in and reading this thread that will challenge even the hardest motherfuckers here.

IMO, despite the cost and all the stress about laws and the constant political back and forth, we live in a time where shooting options have never been better. As @JR1200W3 said, he can shoot every weekend if he wants. Most of us could.

 

[lead ƒarmer]

But then a lot of the stuff that gets repeated about PRS on this site has either changed or was never entirely true.

And (mostly) by old fudds who never shot a PRS match anyway...

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Maybe I’m old and short sighted. I still have yet to shoot a real PRS match, and I complained about the format and lack of reality for years but I think what I missed is that for MOST shooters, it’s just a fun game. Not training or some missing skill set they are honing. Just a game they can utilize their expensive kit in, and that’s ok. Edit: where I tend to notice the biggest difference of opinion in match format and value is between those who served in combat arms, and those who didn’t.

I don't know man.

I've spent time at matches with lots of folks who were "combat arms." Everyone from current and former enlisted infantry & officers to guys with decades in the special operations community. To a man, all of them understand that matches are a game, and they are participating either to hang out and have fun or to test themselves against other shooters. Often both. I've yet to hear one of these guys complain that a match lacked some sort of "training value" or wasn't "reality based."

I've found this to be true across PRS, NRL Hunter, and team field matches.

TBH, the way that PRS is discussed on this forum has very little to do with the actual reality of the matches or the people who attend them.

 

[kthomas]

It would be interesting to see what the rate of attrition is for PRS competitors.

What percentage of shooters still go to a PRS match after their first comp? 5th? 10th? Those would be interesting numbers.

 

[FatBoy]

I don't know man.

I've spent time at matches with lots of folks who were "combat arms." Everyone from current and former enlisted infantry & officers to guys with decades in the special operations community. To a man, all of them understand that matches are a game, and they are participating either to hang out and have fun or to test themselves against other shooters. Often both. I've yet to hear one of these guys complain that a match lacked some sort of "training value" or wasn't "reality based."

I've found this to be true across PRS, NRL Hunter, and team field matches.

TBH, the way that PRS is discussed on this forum has very little to do with the actual reality of the matches or the people who attend them.

Understood. The comment was directed at the guys I shoot with who resist or avoid shooting PRS. The comments on why not to try it revolve around the kit “needed” to compete and the types of positional shooting not having any relevance to what they have experienced or trained. Maybe it’s just my small circle of friends, or maybe it’s just an excuse?

FWIW, these types of conversation are not unique to PRS. F Class arms race is another example.

 

[kthomas]

Understood. The comment was directed at the guys I shoot with who resist or avoid shooting PRS. The comments on why not to try it revolve around the kit “needed” to compete and the types of positional shooting not having any relevance to what they have experienced or trained. Maybe it’s just my small circle of friends, or maybe it’s just an excuse?

FWIW, these types of conversation are not unique to PRS. F Class arms race is another example.

There's a lot of people who want to shoot PRS but never feel "ready" for it. I remember when this forum was flooded with threads and posts about guys preparing/thinking about shooting PRS, but not until they were "ready". And "ready" never comes.

Trying to overcome that mental hurdle of feeling "ready" for a PRS match is a huge obstacle for some, and nobody is really trying to reduce that obstacle. Which I think goes along with some of the points Frank is trying to make.

Not only is the barrier of entry for PRS expensive, but many people don't ever feel prepared to jump into PRS and shoot a match, and that prevents them from ever taking the leap to shoot that first match.

And I'm curious how many people come back and shoot PRS after inevitably getting their asses kicked on that first match.

 

[BurtG]

Meh they could do what everyone says get a step ladder and practice dry and live fire positionally and be at least presentable at a match




As far as training from prs. It really does get your gear and technique sorted. I learn something from every single match I go to. From simple stuff like make sure your turrets are at 0 after the stage and make sure your mags are full and you have extra to advanced stuff like positional techniques and wind

 

[kthomas]

Meh they could do what everyone says get a step ladder and practice dry and live fire positionally and be at least presentable at a match


As far as training from prs. It really does get your gear and technique sorted. I learn something from every single match I go to. From simple stuff like make sure your turrets are at 0 after the stage and make sure your mags are full and you have extra to advanced stuff like positional techniques and wind

That's not the point. Nobody will ever feel "ready" for a match, typically they just need to get over the mental barrier and show up and shoot it. But most won't.

The PRS could also do a lot more in this regard to help people out overcome this hurdle, if they chose to.

 

[JR1200W3]

It would be interesting to see what the rate of attrition is for PRS competitors.

What percentage of shooters still go to a PRS match after their first comp? 5th? 10th? Those would be interesting numbers.

I don't know if the stats on that would be meaningful. There are a lot of people who don't make it back to the very next PRS match for general purpose, life reasons. And I don't know what statute of limitations you would have on "making it back".

I would say though that the learning curve for first time PRS shooters is a hell of a lot higher than it was 10 years ago. Mattress are definitely more difficult than they were back then. I don't really give a shit about feeder matches and growing the sport but if we wanted to get philosophical you kind of need feeder style matches that help people get started and bridge into PRS. Our local club used to run P dog matches And it was a very simple format. There was no moving around with a gun. Very static. Very simple. I would think it's got to be pretty intimidating to try to start off in a 3-day steel Safari , or run and Gun match or full tilt PRS match when you're a beginner with very few skills and knowledge.

The comment above about run and gun matches and adventure matches like Mammoth picking up where PRS leaves off, I'm not so sure about. To be honest, those types of matches existed before PRS did. I think they will always remain somewhat niche with a lower percentage of the shooter population attending them. It's like USPSA versus the tactical games. What PRS (club series) does offer that those longer and more intensive multi-day matches don't is a much easier low investment shooting opportunity. It really is like the fast food of action shooting long gunnery. Lots of flash and attitude but often fails to deliver on quality. And it's everywhere. It is convenient to not have to think about it until the morning of. Pack your shit up, go shoot and be home by 3.

 

[BurtG]

The PRS could also do a lot more in this regard to help people out overcome this hurdle, if they chose to.

The local match circuit here puts on a yearly welcoming beginner match I would think that’s helpful

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Understood. The comment was directed at the guys I shoot with who resist or avoid shooting PRS. The comments on why not to try it revolve around the kit “needed” to compete and the types of positional shooting not having any relevance to what they have experienced or trained. Maybe it’s just my small circle of friends, or maybe it’s just an excuse?

FWIW, these types of conversation are not unique to PRS. F Class arms race is another example.

Ah, that makes sense. And yeah, I know some folks who are the same way, and in their case I'd say it's an excuse. But that's okay, it ain't for everyone.

 

[kthomas]

I don't know if the stats on that would be meaningful. There are a lot of people who don't make it back to the very next PRS match for general purpose, life reasons. And I don't know what statute of limitations you would have on "making it back".

I would say though that the learning curve for first time PRS shooters is a hell of a lot higher than it was 10 years ago. Mattress are definitely more difficult than they were back then. I don't really give a shit about feeder matches and growing the sport but if we wanted to get philosophical you kind of need feeder style matches that help people get started and bridge into PRS. Our local club used to run P dog matches And it was a very simple format. There was no moving around with a gun. Very static. Very simple. I would think it's got to be pretty intimidating to try to start off in a 3-day steel Safari , or run and Gun match or full tilt PRS match when you're a beginner with very few skills and knowledge.

The comment above about run and gun matches and adventure matches like Mammoth picking up where PRS leaves off, I'm not so sure about. To be honest, those types of matches existed before PRS did. I think they will always remain somewhat niche with a lower percentage of the shooter population attending them. It's like USPSA versus the tactical games. What PRS (club series) does offer that those longer and more intensive multi-day matches don't is a much easier low investment shooting opportunity. It really is like the fast food of action shooting long gunnery. Lots of flash and attitude but often fails to deliver on quality. And it's everywhere. It is convenient to not have to think about it until the morning of. Pack your shit up, go shoot and be home by 3.

I think there's a way that you could structure those statistics to find it helpful on determining attrition rate and who's coming back and who's never shooting a PRS match again. I'm not talking about shooting every single match. But who's coming back to shoot a match once a year? Twice? 5 times? And who's showing up once to never come back again?

And I totally agree. Some places will have "feeder" matches, others won't. This nation wide problem of introducing new shooters to the sport is left to being handled at the local level, if MDs choose to do so.

I think Franks frustration with PRS as an organization, which from my personal perspective seems like a just one, is that the org itself does nothing to really help out in advancing the sport. Its all left to the local MDs to figure out problems in their own silos. This should be worked on at a national/organizational level, the MDs shouldn't be trying to solve this on their own, independently of each other.

PRS could do a lot of things to mitigate this. They could release a detailed video series on the PRS series, how it works, what a typical stage may look like, general strategies and equipment. They could host seminars around the country at local ranges, to introduce people to PRS and give brief live demonstrations and let people run through them themselves. They could work with MDs to get more matches going that teams up a "pro" with a new shooter (like the one match at K&M). And/or a plethora of other things. These are all just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are a host of other things that could be done.

Anyways, just my constructive thoughts. Despite being bored of the barricade benchrest aspect of what PRS has become, I don't hate PRS. I think this is an interesting conversation, and an interesting thought experiment on what something could be.

 

[kthomas]

The local match circuit here puts on a yearly welcoming beginner match I would think that’s helpful

And that's awesome.

But I think its a problem that this isn't being solved at a national/organizational level, but rather left to the MDs to independently solve on their own.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

There's a lot of people who want to shoot PRS but never feel "ready" for it. I remember when this forum was flooded with threads and posts about guys preparing/thinking about shooting PRS, but not until they were "ready". And "ready" never comes.

Trying to overcome that mental hurdle of feeling "ready" for a PRS match is a huge obstacle for some, and nobody is really trying to reduce that obstacle. Which I think goes along with some of the points Frank is trying to make.

Not only is the barrier of entry for PRS expensive, but many people don't ever feel prepared to jump into PRS and shoot a match, and that prevents them from ever taking the leap to shoot that first match.

And I'm curious how many people come back and shoot PRS after inevitably getting their asses kicked on that first match.

It probably doesn't help that anyone coming on the Hide and looking for information about shooting their first match will be confronted with the overwhelmingly negative image of the community painted by threads like these.

I got into precision rifle shooting because some buddies invited me to shoot with them, and then after a while talked me into trying a local match. I had never even heard of the Hide, and wouldn't until after I'd been to a couple of matches. By then I'd had the time of my life hanging out with a group of great people while getting my teeth kicked in and learning how much I didn't know about shooting a rifle, and I was hooked.

If my first step had been to come on the Hide and research PRS, and the information I found was "PRS Sucks," "Barricade Benchrest," "Jersey Shooters are jerks," "MDs are all unimaginative Hacks," and the other stuff that gets pushed here with the clear intent of damaging the series, I probably never would've attended the first match. And it's been encouraged for long enough that I think that's probably the point.

 

[Lowlight]

I was told 3 years is the burnout rate for a competitor. Some have said 5, but it’s going down not up

 

[Lowlight]

It probably doesn't help that anyone coming on the Hide and looking for information about shooting their first match will be confronted with the overwhelmingly negative image of the community painted by threads like these.

I got into precision rifle shooting because some buddies invited me to shoot with them, and then after a while talked me into trying a local match. I had never even heard of the Hide, and wouldn't until after I'd been to a couple of matches. By then I'd had the time of my life hanging out with a group of great people while getting my teeth kicked in and learning how much I didn't know about shooting a rifle, and I was hooked.

If my first step had been to come on the Hide and research PRS, and the information I found was "PRS Sucks," "Barricade Benchrest," "Jersey Shooters are jerks," "MDs are all unimaginative Hacks," and the other stuff that gets pushed here with the clear intent of damaging the series, I probably never would've attended the first match. And it's been encouraged for long enough that I think that's probably the point.

Fuck you sideways they earned it

You have no fucking clue the efforts on the backside, the PRS started here,

Why they fuck are you here then, what they fuck do they do to positively promote their own sport

Look how it grew with me being part of something vs me against it. I grew the sport better than most here you never was

 

[FatBoy]

Trying to overcome that mental hurdle of feeling "ready" for a PRS match is a huge obstacle for some, and nobody is really trying to reduce that obstacle. Which I think goes along with some of the points Frank is trying to make.

This is an overall problem with people in this country in general, not just shooters. Seems many don’t appreciate working up from the bottom and trying to continually improve, regardless of what we’re talking about. They want to show up and be a top contender, which isn’t how most shit works in my experience.

I pimp Legion/Tenet matches pretty hard, because I believe in the meaning behind the matches and I think they fun and well run. I talk to people at the range, at the gym, pretty much any place they’ll listen and it’s common to hear “I’m not ready” from guys who have been shooting 2 gun or NRA matches for years. My position is if you can safely manipulate your firearms and are healthy enough to walk 4 miles, get started in a match. You’re never going to know until you try. (See how that contradicts my “it ain’t real training” above )

I’m not sure if it’s fear or embarrassment, lack of self confidence? I don’t know…. But regardless of the type of match, dudes will spends $10k on shit to shoot it and never leave the bench at the local range. God bless ‘em, but they’re missing out.

 

[Lowlight]

Funny there are matches in Alaska, everyone is a student of mine. Who from the PRS went up there and helped them stand up a match season ?

Where are the PRS Range Officers ? What’s the RO program ?

Where is the PRS liaison officer to make sure matches are standardized or run according to the rules

Who is the PRS out reach that coordinates with big box stores to introduce new shooters to competition?

Last time I checked the officials at the NASCAR race are part of nascar and not team gap

 

[Lowlight]

I have no issue with the IPRF that is your bullshit

The issue is, rather than address the issues they shoot the messenger so they came to me cuz I do t give a fuck , I was on the ground floor, I know the dirty secrets

My only issue with the IPRF is what they did to Andy and Keith prior to the match. How come the two of the best shooters with the most matches a year under their belt wasn’t there? I know do you ? The answer would surprise you

 

[kthomas]

This is an overall problem with people in this country in general, not just shooters. Seems many don’t appreciate working up from the bottom and trying to continually improve, regardless of what we’re talking about. They want to show up and be a top contender, which isn’t how most shit works in my experience.

I pimp Legion/Tenet matches pretty hard, because I believe in the meaning behind the matches and I think they fun and well run. I talk to people at the range, at the gym, pretty much any place they’ll listen and it’s common to hear “I’m not ready” from guys who have been shooting 2 gun or NRA matches for years. My position is if you can safely manipulate your firearms and are healthy enough to walk 4 miles, get started in a match. You’re never going to know until you try. (See how that contradicts my “it ain’t real training” above )

I’m not sure if it’s fear or embarrassment, lack of self confidence? I don’t know…. But regardless of the type of match, dudes will spends $10k on shit to shoot it and never leave the bench at the local range. God bless ‘em, but they’re missing out.

IMO, there's a lot that the PRS could do at an organization level to introduce new shooters to the sport, and removing that mental roadblock. I don't agree that for a lot of people, that couldn't be alleviated from an organizational level from the PRS.

Sure, there will always be some that won't shoot a PRS match no matter what, and that's fine. But there are others that would jump in if they had a better understanding of what they are getting into and having a ramp to entry rather than immediately just swimming with the sharks.

I just don't think the PRS focuses at all on introducing new shooters to the sport, there's a lot of complacency there. All the focus is on making the top 20% of shooters happy.

 

[FatBoy]

IMO, there's a lot that the PRS could do at an organization level to introduce new shooters to the sport, and removing that mental roadblock. I don't agree that for a lot of people, that couldn't be alleviated from an organizational level from the PRS.

Sure, there will always be some that won't shoot a PRS match no matter what, and that's fine. But there are others that would jump in if they had a better understanding of what they are getting into and having a ramp to entry rather than immediately just swimming with the sharks.

I just don't think the PRS focuses at all on introducing new shooters to the sport, there's a lot of complacency there. All the focus is on making the top 20% of shooters happy.

Yeah, that makes sense in trying to grow the sport. If you can keep people coming back regularly.

Do they still allow teams? Teams, allowing guys to be wind dummies so one guy could clean up, combined with guys bitching they won’t go unless the prize table was like $100k+ was really off putting to me.

Maybe local, fun matches is where it’s at.

 

[AirgunnerPCP]

Fuck you sideways they earned it

You have no fucking clue the efforts on the backside, the PRS started here,

Why they fuck are you here then, what they fuck do they do to positively promote their own sport

Look how it grew with me being part of something vs me against it. I grew the sport better than most here you never was

Yikes...

 

[Lowlight]

It probably doesn't help that anyone coming on the Hide and looking for information about shooting their first match will be confronted with the overwhelmingly negative image of the community painted by threads like these.

I got into precision rifle shooting because some buddies invited me to shoot with them, and then after a while talked me into trying a local match. I had never even heard of the Hide, and wouldn't until after I'd been to a couple of matches. By then I'd had the time of my life hanging out with a group of great people while getting my teeth kicked in and learning how much I didn't know about shooting a rifle, and I was hooked.

If my first step had been to come on the Hide and research PRS, and the information I found was "PRS Sucks," "Barricade Benchrest," "Jersey Shooters are jerks," "MDs are all unimaginative Hacks," and the other stuff that gets pushed here with the clear intent of damaging the series, I probably never would've attended the first match. And it's been encouraged for long enough that I think that's probably the point.

Oh talking matches over looking the obvious

During the time I was bitching about the PRS according to you, I was supporting the RTC, they were running the Snipers Hide Challenge up there for years. They were doing tons of underhanded things around other events.

The SH events was the longest running match of its kind, it went nonstop from 2002 to 2021

 

[Lowlight]

You guys are so small minded you’ll argue mediocrity vs attempting to even suggest small changes to improve the experience

Pathetic actually, don’t get me wrong some of you get it. The others have to run to extremes, as nobody said burn it down.

Small changes can be meaningful but you’d never know that with the party loyalist around, more of the same, attack the messenger so the message is lost.

 

[Long Range 338]

Yeah, that makes sense in trying to grow the sport. If you can keep people coming back regularly.

Do they still allow teams? Teams, allowing guys to be wind dummies so one guy could clean up, combined with guys bitching they won’t go unless the prize table was like $100k+ was really off putting to me.

Maybe local, fun matches is where it’s at.

You pretty much nailed it here from my limited experience. The smaller club matches are more relaxed and more fun. To be honest the small matches had the better stages that weren't just copy/paste.

It's almost intangible but at the less enjoyable matches there is always an air of "elitism" or some kind of snobbery. Plenty of crying about RO calls and lack of amazing prizes at the prize table though...

 

[Fig]

So, shooting off a ball hitch? Shooting off a wobbly, plastic barrel? The chain platform? A car windshield? Out of bus windows? Cinder block moves? Jumping jacks/push-ups before/after "engage"? Weak side? No-bipod/no-bag? No dial? No scope!?!? Short time with unlimited rounds? KYLs? Etc., etc., etc.

I kinda always thought it was "outlaw rulz", and that was part of the fun. But there are just as many threads bitchin' about gamer stages and ridiculous stages/not realworld, etc.

Gamer stage, not-a-gamer stage? Real world/no real world value?

Should the course of fire be too difficult for even the best marksmen to clean all of it? < that is a serious question. Is the gauge of a match if it's just not possible to clean the whole course of fire? I've got no problem with it, but I'm pretty sure that will piss just as many people off.

Seems really hard to make everyone happy because people come at it from so many different angles.
My opinion is of no consequence. I get so little time to shoot a two day match I'm just so happy to be there it doesn't matter to me.

 

[Lowlight]

Look at the buzz around the Real World Sniper Challenge vs just about anything else right now.

The buzz that follows NRL Hunter, there is a reason people are gravitating in those directions it’s different it has new challenges

If the audience says it’s time to change, most consider that clue

 

[Ruff 364]

I shoot in some form every 3 days usally I enjoy it, I teach weekly too, enjoy that... i do a lot to support people and the sport
I drove 4 hours to the IPRF just to say hi and visit, where a bunch of them don't like me... so I was still there...

I even gave an impromptu wind class and spent 45 minutes showing a group of people the Kraft Quick Wind stuff... I put a case of books on the prize table and 5 packages of stickers, just to leave when it got started

I find it odd the push back to do things a bit better, vs being contrived day in and out, truly mediocre is being promoted sad

I picked up one of your books off the RO table. Since I already have it this one is going to a new shooter that shows drive and intitative at my next couple of matches. Thanks for the donation, it will go towards training a newbie.

 

[Sparkeytj]

From what I have seen over the few years competing mostly with my regional series with a few 2 days here and there is there seems to be much more variability within local matches. I think some of it is because it's a lot more layed back with less on the line than a national match. If there is a wobbly prop at a local match nobody notices if the same prop is at a 2 day people try to get the whole stage thrown out.

People talk about the high cost of entry for the average shooter, but I haven't ever herd anyone talk about how much it costs to get a match started. This is where I think the prs could help from the conversations I've had with local match directors the cost of the steel alone for an 8 stage match is crazy. Locations are difficult and the owners get most of the match fees. Most match directors don't get paid at all. If prs wanted to grow the sport they would invest in increasing the number of local matches and locations. Instead of taking a percentage of match fees invest in under served areas mabe by covering insurance or providing the steel until the match can support itself.

The more matches the better in my opinion as that's the only way to make the majority of people happy if people have options then the better match wins.

 

[jthor]

Unless you increase time and trigger weight for an off hand stage the range/MD accepts a lot of risk. NDs will happen. You’re rushing someone on something that takes some time to check correct positioning and fundamentals for off hand shooting. Then with increased time you have a stage being a bottle neck. People will be sky loading or closing the bolt into the dirt and then shouldering the rifle in many cases. Atleast my process in
Service Rifle is with gun parallel:
- Place round on the mag sled and dip rifle down so round falls in chamber
- hit bolt release
- shoulder rifle
- go through my breath cycle and NPA check
- Pew
SR triggers can be 4.5 lbs at their lightest.

That being said. I’m not for off hand in PRS. Maybe out east where you have less wind, sure. However out west off hand can suck. The last SR match I shot was a month ago in Cheyenne, WY and it was blowing 23 MPH and gusting above that. With wind like that it doesn’t matter how good your off hand NPA is nor can you really check it due to how much you are getting blown around.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Unless you increase time and trigger weight for an off hand stage the range/MD accepts a lot of risk. NDs will happen. You’re rushing someone on something that takes some time to check correct positioning and fundamentals for off hand shooting. Then with increased time you have a stage being a bottle neck. People will be sky loading or closing the bolt into the dirt and then shouldering the rifle in many cases. Atleast my process in
Service Rifle is with gun parallel:
- Place round on the mag sled and dip rifle down so round falls in chamber
- hit bolt release
- shoulder rifle
- go through my breath cycle and NPA check
- Pew
SR triggers can be 4.5 lbs at their lightest.

That being said. I’m not for off hand in PRS. Maybe out east where you have less wind, sure. However out west off hand can suck. The last SR match I shot was a month ago in Cheyenne, WY and it was blowing 23 MPH and gusting above that. With wind like that it doesn’t matter how good your off hand NPA is nor can you really check it due to how much you are getting blown around.

Not PRS, but the last East Coast NRL Hunter match I shot this year had an unsupported stage on the second day:

• Single target, a bear (about 40" wide by 24" tall) at 200 yd.
• No support gear allowed other than perhaps a sling, shooters could shoot seated, kneeling, or standing offhand, but not prone.
• 4 positions (meaning you had to stand up, move 3 ft, and reset your unsupported position), 2 attempts at a hit from each position.
• Time limit 4 minutes.

And since it was a Hunter match, most guys were shooting rifles that weighed 12-16lb.

It was fun, and completely safe. But I agree it wouldn't have worked within the context of a modern PRS match.

 

[jthor]

Not PRS, but the last East Coast NRL Hunter match I shot this year had an unsupported stage on the second day:

• Single target, a bear (about 40" wide by 24" tall) at 200 yd.
• No support gear allowed other than perhaps a sling, shooters could shoot seated, kneeling, or standing offhand, but not prone.
• 4 positions (meaning you had to stand up, move 3 ft, and reset your unsupported position), 2 attempts at a hit from each position.
• Time limit 4 minutes.

And since it was a Hunter match, most guys were shooting rifles that weighed 12-16lb.

It was fun, and completely safe. But I agree it wouldn't have worked within the context of a modern PRS match.

Severely increase target size is also viable, glad you mentioned that. I was thinking of my standard target sized out to the 9 ring in SR . Then the last time I shot off hand at a PRS match it was an 8 or 10” circle at 200 going back and forth between off hand and shooting at like 600 or 700 off a tire.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Severely increase target size is also viable, glad you mentioned that. I was thinking of my standard target sized out to the 9 ring in SR . Then the last time I shot off hand at a PRS match it was an 8 or 10” circle at 200 going back and forth between off hand and shooting at like 600 or 700 off a tire.

That's pretty close to what I remember, though it's been a several years since I've seen off hand at a PRS match.

FWIW, the last one I remember seeing was at the Pigg River HAM match in VA several years ago, and most of the "Pros" were cleaning the stage. Including a then teenage girl named Allison Zane. The folks bitching and dropping points on the stage were nearly all midpack shooters.

 

[jthor]

Zane has a history in small bore if I remember correctly so that makes sense.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

There's a lot of people who want to shoot PRS but never feel "ready" for it. I remember when this forum was flooded with threads and posts about guys preparing/thinking about shooting PRS, but not until they were "ready". And "ready" never comes.

Trying to overcome that mental hurdle of feeling "ready" for a PRS match is a huge obstacle for some, and nobody is really trying to reduce that obstacle. Which I think goes along with some of the points Frank is trying to make.

Not only is the barrier of entry for PRS expensive, but many people don't ever feel prepared to jump into PRS and shoot a match, and that prevents them from ever taking the leap to shoot that first match.

And I'm curious how many people come back and shoot PRS after inevitably getting their asses kicked on that first match.

There are a lot of pussies out there. If you want to shoot then go shoot. The vast majority of complaints are by people who DO NOT COMPETE or shot one match and got their ass handed to them so they have a grudge. If people did not enjoy themselves and aren't having fun at matches, they wouldn't shoot them.

I don't get why so many non competitors are so invested in the PRS. They talk so much shit but they never did anything to make it better. How many people did they introduce to the sport? How many matches did they RO so others could have fun? Do they have a spare gun and setup they can loan out to people who want to try a match?

This whole thread is nothing but a big screaming "Stop liking what I don't like". The PRS is not training. If you want sniper training from some old guy who's TTP's are already obsolete there are plenty of people out there. Some of the best shooters AND instructors never spent a day in the military or law enforcement. In fact, the tip of the spear brings those Plumbers and Dentists into their units to teach them how to shoot better. If you want training, go take training. If you want to shoot matches, go shoot matches.

Want to learn about the PRS? Go shoot or RO a bunch of matches. You will find what people say on here about it is not reality.

You can enjoy other match formats without constantly trying to neg the PRS.

 

[Lowlight]

There are a lot of pussies out there. If you want to shoot then go shoot. The vast majority of complaints are by people who DO NOT COMPETE or shot one match and got their ass handed to them so they have a grudge. If people did not enjoy themselves and aren't having fun at matches, they wouldn't shoot them.

I don't get why so many non competitors are so invested in the PRS. They talk so much shit but they never did anything to make it better. How many people did they introduce to the sport? How many matches did they RO so others could have fun? Do they have a spare gun and setup they can loan out to people who want to try a match?

This whole thread is nothing but a big screaming "Stop liking what I don't like". The PRS is not training. If you want sniper training from some old guy who's TTP's are already obsolete there are plenty of people out there. Some of the best shooters AND instructors never spent a day in the military or law enforcement. In fact, the tip of the spear brings those Plumbers and Dentists into their units to teach them how to shoot better. If you want training, go take training. If you want to shoot matches, go shoot matches.

Want to learn about the PRS? Go shoot or RO a bunch of matches. You will find what people say on here about it is not reality.

You can enjoy other match formats without constantly trying to neg the PRS.

This is royal fucking lie... the people responding compete, you just don't like the answers

The majority answering this stuff are not NON Competitors, they are people who did it before and don't like it now...

This is the fucking joke of shoot the messenger, reducing the complaints to people who dont'... the only ones NOT doing anything are people who don't like what they read

There are plenty of competitors commenting, more fucking distractions and lies,

 

[Lowlight]

The dirty secret of these COMPETITORS is the majority of them are one trick ponies who only go to the same place and see the same people so it’s the ultimate echo chamber

I teach across the country, I’ll be in Ohio next week and I actually talk to shooters from a variety of places and backgrounds. These other guys never leave their pond.

They don’t acknowledge a lot of people and if you really paid attention the majority hate having to compete around new shooters - they get in the way. They don’t want you at a 2 day match unless you’re ready but you can’t get ready on your own which is what is said under their breathe

They only play with themselves and very few branch out. They say you don’t compete cuz they don’t know you, but they only hit the same 3 places.

 

[Lowlight]

Remember when this started (pre2012) every match had a train up, to help new shooters

Then better shooters started coming and people cried foul, so they outlawed it

We used to have pistols too til an idiot designed a bad stage (K&M) and in short order a guy shot his leg. No more pistol. We did twice as many matches for 3x the years without a safety violation, less than 2 years into the PRS and they hung up pistols and stopped pre match training.

Sounds like grow the sport to me.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

This is royal fucking lie... the people responding compete, you just don't like the answers

The majority answering this stuff are not NON Competitors, they are people who did it before and don't like it now...

This is the fucking joke of shoot the messenger, reducing the complaints to people who don't... the only ones NOT doing anything are people who don't like what they read

There are plenty of competitors commenting, more fucking distractions and lies,

Its not the same game it was 10 years ago. You have some high level shooters (which I am not claiming to be) in here who are disagreeing with what the vocal majority are saying, including one of the better MD's in the country.

What I hear people say about the PRS on this website and what I see with my own eyes traveling around the nation shooting and talking to hundreds of competitors is not the same thing. There are plenty of areas for improvement within the PRS and there is a process if people want change. But most of the complaints seem to be unfounded or not what a lot of us that shoot have seen. Its a small community, everyone knows everyone and talks.

The bottom line is the PRS has evolved. I get it some people don't like where it has gone, especially those who had a hand in its formation. It is a shooter and MD driven league and all the changes are because of the shooters and the MDs. The actual PRS has little to do with the day to day operation of matches. Its essentially a loose affiliation so we can track scores and have finales. There are MD's out there who suck and do the bare minimum and then there are MD's out there who go above and beyond to bring in new people and keep them entertained. Blaming the PRS for this is not going to change anything. If people want change, they need to get out there and volunteer at the local level.

 

[stanley_white]

If a few words were changed in this thread it could be discussing the evolution of CrossFit.

-Stan

 

[kthomas]

The dirty secret of these COMPETITORS is the majority of them are one trick ponies who only go to the same place and see the same people so it’s the ultimate echo chamber

I teach across the country, I’ll be in Ohio next week and I actually talk to shooters from a variety of places and backgrounds. These other guys never leave their pond.

They don’t acknowledge a lot of people and if you really paid attention the majority hate having to compete around new shooters - they get in the way. They don’t want you at a 2 day match unless you’re ready but you can’t get ready on your own which is what is said under their breathe

They only play with themselves and very few branch out. They say you don’t compete cuz they don’t know you, but they only hit the same 3 places.

This was totally the case when I was shooting a lot more PRS matches years ago.

The jersey shooters (for the most part) HATED interacting with the "normies". Some of the worst was the Team GAP guys. Some of the stuff I saw was so incredibly petty. There was a big divide between the jersey shooters and the rest of the crowd, at least from what I experienced.

I do think this has improved in recent years, at least from what I saw from my experience at a PRS match last year. The Team MDT guys were really awesome to interact with, for example. Experienced shooters were very willing to help newer shooters, which was awesome to see. I'm sure there's still some cliquish factions here and there, but for the most part it's gotten much better than some of the earlier days in this regard.