So over the Contrived and Repetitive Nature of Stages today

[spife7980]

As a non member because I refuse to travel more than two hours so chasing season points is futile:
My biggest issue with two day prs matches is 1) the price and 2) how many people there are.
If you lower 1, 2 increases which means more time waiting in lines.
If you raise 1, 2 decreases and I’m one of them because it’s too expensive which it’s looking like is going to happen this next year.

I will admit I’m a fair weather shooter, I’m not going to pay for the privilege of being miserable. I will wait to sign up until the forecast is out and positive.
And if I do show up and it turns nasty I’ll just skip a stage if it equals standing in a puddle of water. My socks will stay dry.

I dont necessarily think that training newbies should be the concern of the prs series, if someone doesn’t know how to shoot and shows up to a 300 dollar 2 day national level match then they should expect to get their teeth kicked in.

I don’t mind being a squad mom and herding the newbies at a club match though… but to say I prefer doing that over shooting with my group of friends would be a blatant lie.

The biggest issue with new shooters is motivation. People ask me to get into shooting all the time, not even matches. I tell them show up Saturday at the ranch at 9 am, I get maybe two people a year take me up on it and they rarely ever come back. I got the rifles and ammo. They don’t like waking up before noon and driving 10 minutes out of town.
The second biggest is money because kids ruin peoples lives lol

 

[Long Range 338]

The biggest issue with new shooters is motivation. People ask me to get into shooting all the time, not even matches. I tell them show up Saturday at the ranch at 9 am, I get maybe two people a year take me up on it and they rarely ever come back. I got the rifles and ammo. They don’t like waking up before noon and driving 10 minutes out of town.
The second biggest is money because kids ruin peoples lives lol

This is true as well. I always invite others to the range for shooting sessions. Everyone is a long range shooter or wants to learn until it’s time to show up. Then it’s the wife, the kids, etc.

I’m not sure if it’s a time issue or intimidation factor but the struggle is real.

 

[clefairy]

Someone build it, and they will come. Talk is easy, no one wants to build the best shooting game.

Plus, no matter what you do, watching shooting sports will always be more boring then staring at the new seasons of the Simpkins.

 

[MarinePMI]

I wish all you people who think shooting in rain and mud and cold is just fine had spent time with me on Peason Ridge in 1970. (Much less highlands of Viet Nam in 1971)

Setting up and running matches, setting and resetting targets in the middle of the Louisiana summer with minimal or zero attendance, caused us to get out of the match business. We busted our ass, lost enough pre-biden dollars, and generally despite our best efforts accomplished little or maybe nothing for the sport. That made us believers, enough is enough.

But remember, it’s supposed to be fun. If your idea that suffering is a definition of fun, may I recommend a good psychiatrist. Better yet a whole fucking hospital of psychiatrist. Remember, people are paying their post biden dollars to attend your match. Making a tough sport miserable, is not going to endear you to the paying public.

Two stories here.
Give the Match Directors some help. Otherwise, they’ll be gone
Match Directors, its their dollars, its their time, both are limited, think about what they like, not what you want to impose.

I’m a Time Trialist. Time Trialist live in the pain cave, so yes I suppose I do need a whole hospital of psychiatrist, for my own self.

Suffering is part of the point. In fact, that lack of people willing to suffer to become proficient at things, is partly what's wrong with this current generation. But that's my personal opinion. And don't think you have a monopoly on suffering in combat; there are many here who have had similar experiences in a lot of shitty places around the world.

Without paying a personal price for something, the value of that something is diminished. Much like any other thing in life. I'm glad you didn't show up to the Hide Cup in 2015. That was a classic case of suffering through the cold and rain. Or the Big Horn Steel match in 2019, where it was 26* the second morning, and everything was frozen solid. The day before it was 34* and pissing down rain all day. And yes, both of the matches were great. Not because the weather sucked, but because it pushed people to overcome their physical discomfort to still perform at a high level.


Or as the saying goes "I'd rather suffer in good company, than live comfortably surrounded by delicate men."

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Suffering is part of the point. In fact, that lack of people willing to suffer to become proficient at things, is partly what's wrong with this current generation. But that's my personal opinion. And don't think you have a monopoly on suffering in combat; there are many here who have had similar experiences in a lot of shitty places around the world.

Without paying a personal price for something, the value of that something is diminished. Much like any other thing in life. I'm glad you didn't show up to the Hide Cup in 2015. That was a classic case of suffering through the cold and rain. Or the Big Horn Steel match in 2019, where it was 26* the second morning, and everything was frozen solid. The day before it was 34* and pissing down rain all day. And yes, both of the matches were great. Not because the weather sucked, but because it pushed people to overcome their physical discomfort to still perform at a high level.


Or as the saying goes "I'd rather suffer in good company, than live comfortably surrounded by delicate men."

I’m sorry but I cannot agree. You don’t go to contests to learn how to suffer to get good. You go to contest/competition to win

To win, you practice, you preserver, you sacrifice, so that on game day, whatever the game is, you can win. Practice, preparation is where the suffering and sacrifice Should Occur. If conditions in the game go bad, that’s that. However, you make the contest hard, to make it worth it, not to make people suffer so you can sit back in your easy chair after the “game” and feel good that people fell bad.

 

[ma smith]

Its all about the fun scale...

The Fun Scale

I first heard about the Fun Scale from my friend Peter Haeussler back in 2001, as we bushwhacked through thick Alaskan Devil’s Club en route to cold beers on his sailboat. I’d just come out of the …

kellycordes.com

 

[clefairy]

Suffering is part of the point. In fact, that lack of people willing to suffer to become proficient at things, is partly what's wrong with this current generation. But that's my personal opinion. And don't think you have a monopoly on suffering in combat; there are many here who have had similar experiences in a lot of shitty places around the world.

Without paying a personal price for something, the value of that something is diminished. Much like any other thing in life. I'm glad you didn't show up to the Hide Cup in 2015. That was a classic case of suffering through the cold and rain. Or the Big Horn Steel match in 2019, where it was 26* the second morning, and everything was frozen solid. The day before it was 34* and pissing down rain all day. And yes, both of the matches were great. Not because the weather sucked, but because it pushed people to overcome their physical discomfort to still perform at a high level.


Or as the saying goes "I'd rather suffer in good company, than live comfortably surrounded by delicate men."

The match is no longer running? Doesn't that prove that everyone wants to live comfortably surrounded by delicate men?

Suffering sucks. Unless your david goggins and getting after it everyday, the talk of suffering is cheeeaaaaap.

 

[Lowlight]

FYI
I’m guy responsible for the $300 price tag on a match

But we were also paying for gas for the helicopter we always had. The issue is, nobody adjusted for reality. I did it cause I could I knew we already had a full match based on the students from the classes.

The SHC slots used to sell out in a minute cuz there was only 10 open spots, everyone else was on a list from the classes. So I understood the market and my customers.

At the high point, guys would arrive on Sunday, Monday to Wednesday was the train up, Thursday we set up the range and Friday to Sunday we shot. We’d have 25 in the train up doing that.

Plus we had a $250k prize table a DQ’d shooter who hung around got $1000 off the table, that was the minimum. You paid $300, I guaranteed you $1000 in swag or prizes to leave. Plus shirts, food, etc. it’s why they still give SHC matches props

We always changed up at least 3 stages a yr.

 

[Ruff 364]

Setting up and running matches, setting and resetting targets in the middle of the Louisiana summer with minimal or zero attendance, caused us to get out of the match business. We busted our ass, lost enough pre-biden dollars, and generally despite our best efforts accomplished little or maybe nothing for the sport. That made us believers, enough is enough.


I refuse to run centerfire matches in AZ June to November for that reason.

I set up a NRL hunter games match by myself in May last year. Zero help, everyone was busy.
Match day one fucking guy showed up from the 15 that signed up. Told him I guess you and I are battling for 1-2 place and we shot it anyhow.

 

[clefairy]

FYI
I’m guy responsible for the $300 price tag on a match

But we were also paying for gas for the helicopter we always had. The issue is, nobody adjusted for reality. I did it cause I could I knew we already had a full match based on the students from the classes.

The SHC slots used to sell out in a minute cuz there was only 10 open spots, everyone else was on a list from the classes. So I understood the market and my customers.

At the high point, guys would arrive on Sunday, Monday to Wednesday was the train up, Thursday we set up the range and Friday to Sunday we shot. We’d have 25 in the train up doing that.

Plus we had a $250k prize table a DQ’d shooter who hung around got $1000 off the table, that was the minimum. You paid $300, I guaranteed you $1000 in swag or prizes to leave. Plus shirts, food, etc. it’s why they still give SHC matches props

We always changed up at least 3 stages a yr.

Start again in CO. Let’s goooo

 

[roostercogburn98]

To show how much he PRS cares about its shooters they postponed the regional Rimfire finale match at Clinton house today a whole two hours after the whole area was decimated by a storm yesterday. No hotels or power in the nearby town and people can’t make it but hey the PRS cares. Lol

It stormed round here?

 

[Lowlight]

I would only do a .22 thing today, I have a section in F.M. Every time I’m in it I want to run a stage through it, super interesting

 

[Tx_Aggie]

FYI
I’m guy responsible for the $300 price tag on a match

But we were also paying for gas for the helicopter we always had. The issue is, nobody adjusted for reality. I did it cause I could I knew we already had a full match based on the students from the classes.

The SHC slots used to sell out in a minute cuz there was only 10 open spots, everyone else was on a list from the classes. So I understood the market and my customers.

At the high point, guys would arrive on Sunday, Monday to Wednesday was the train up, Thursday we set up the range and Friday to Sunday we shot. We’d have 25 in the train up doing that.

Plus we had a $250k prize table a DQ’d shooter who hung around got $1000 off the table, that was the minimum. You paid $300, I guaranteed you $1000 in swag or prizes to leave. Plus shirts, food, etc. it’s why they still give SHC matches props

We always changed up at least 3 stages a yr.

It would really great if you and Chris Way did something together.

There’s absolutely an appetite among shooters for alternatives to PRS. The success of NRL Hunter, team matches like Major Land & the Chaos Concepts events, DMR competitions, and of course Competition Dynamics shows this.

With your history and knowledge base and Chris’s creativity and unique perspectives, you guys could do something really unique and interesting. An event that would be challenging, fresh, and a ton of fun.

No bullshit. The old school stuff does sound like a ton of fun. Maybe it’s time to bring it back, with a little modern twist (like Marathons).

 

[Ronws]

It would really great if you and Chris Way did something together.

There’s absolutely an appetite among shooters for alternatives to PRS. The success of NRL Hunter, team matches like Major Land & the Chaos Concepts events, DMR competitions, and of course Competition Dynamics shows this.

With your history and knowledge base and Chris’s creativity and unique perspectives, you guys could do something really unique and interesting. An event that would be challenging, fresh, and a ton of fun.

No bullshit. The old school stuff does sound like a ton of fun. Maybe it’s time to bring it back, with a little modern twist (like Marathons).

And thanks for clearing up some of my ignorance. I did not realize there are DMR competitions.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

And thanks for clearing up some of my ignorance. I did not realize there are DMR competitions.

There are more than a few, and they're a hoot:

Match Finder: Find a Scoped Carbine Match Near You!

Are you searching for a match that will stretch the legs on your scoped carbine or precision gas gun? Check out our list of matches below to find an organization in your state! This list is SPECIFICALLY based on matches designed for scoped carbine, SPR/DMR, or precision gas gun that test your...

www.sunnshadow.com

 

[Ronws]

There are more than a few, and they're a hoot:

Match Finder: Find a Scoped Carbine Match Near You!

Are you searching for a match that will stretch the legs on your scoped carbine or precision gas gun? Check out our list of matches below to find an organization in your state! This list is SPECIFICALLY based on matches designed for scoped carbine, SPR/DMR, or precision gas gun that test your...

www.sunnshadow.com

My primary activity is hunting on public land. While I have never been a DM or served, I think the idea of improvised shooting positions is important to me.

Having read the memoirs of snipers, I know there are times where you set up a hide and have time to rest.

And another time, you are engaged in a fight and you hump up your portable ladder to a roof top and set up to start taking out bad guys. So, breathing ragged, pulse elevated, sweating like a whore in church on Sunday. And still make the shots.

 

[Emerson0311]

My primary activity is hunting on public land. While I have never been a DM or served, I think the idea of improvised shooting positions is important to me.

Having read the memoirs of snipers, I know there are times where you set up a hide and have time to rest.

And another time, you are engaged in a fight and you hump up you portable ladder to a roof top and set up to start taking out bad guys. So, breathing ragged, pulse elevated, sweating like a whore in church on Sunday. And still make the shots.

I think the elephant in the room when discussing PRS type matches is rifle overall weight. Put a 10-12 lbs limit in place and everything changes. Non solid props and we are back to hunting style stuff. Sure, mostly the same people will win, but it’s a shooter skill race more than a gear thing. Problem is, shooter skill is tougher to develop than gear is to purchase.

 

[VFL1911]

I think there’s a big psychological toll that comes into play as well. The sport/hobby is extremely addicting and requires so much time, effort, and money to truly reach a high level.

I’d be lying if I didn’t feel some sense of regret after not doing as well as I’d hoped at a match driving home 5-6+ hrs away after not spending time with family that whole weekend (plus all the practice and lead up to the match).

At least for me, it can really weigh heavy at times when you look at the pros and cons of how you just spent your time + money + energy vs. just staying local for a range trip rather than a whole weekend away.

Don’t get me wrong, competing is a blast and tons of fun to travel to new places to meet new faces…but this sport/hobby is continually requires some pretty big sacrifices to compete at a high level.

I genuinely believe it’s why you hear the lifespan of PRS Pro’s only being 3-4 years these days.

Relating my ramble to the OP intent of stage variation…I do think MD’s are in a tough spot trying to find the balance of making COF’s approachable for the mid to low skill shooters, while also providing a challenge for the top tier. I think this is what fuels the dissatisfaction and boredom for so many people around NRL, etc.

 

[clefairy]

I would only do a .22 thing today, I have a section in F.M. Every time I’m in it I want to run a stage through it, super interesting

Cmon bro, everyone wants to talk about change but no one actually wants to change.

-George Washington

 

[MarinePMI]

I’m sorry but that is pure bullshit. You don’t go to contests to learn how to suffer to get good. You go to contest/competition to win

To win, you practice, you preserver, you sacrifice, so that on game day, whatever the game is, you can win. Practice, preparation is where the suffering and sacrifice Should Occur. If conditions in the game go bad, that’s that. However, you make the contest hard, to make it worth it, not to make people suffer so you can sit back in your easy chair after the “game” and feel good that people fell bad.

Nope. But I'm beginning to think you're pure bullshit (or have no idea what you're talking about). But that's just MHO.

So answer me this genius. If you don't practice how to suffer while still competing well, how do you expect to perform when shit goes sideways?

Life never goes the way it should, so you practice for that eventuality. Otherwise, you're just practicing for optimum conditions. Anything else and you're not really pushing yourself to handle any situation.

I think the part you're missing is that club matches are training validation contests, designed to tell you if you're prepared to move to a higher level...even in poor or inclement conditions.

But, what do I know?

And yes, our matches continue to be held, and I'd argue, our club has an abnormally large group of very competitive shooters at the National level.

 

[BurtG]

did not realize there are DMR competitions.

Geissele/ Drew Walter have monthly ones at tremont. It’s a great time and they raffle off a rifle , a couple uppers and a bunch of handguards and triggers at the end of each one.


Highly recommend

 

[BurtG]

Put a 10-12 lbs limit

Too low a suppressed AI will be way heavier than that

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I may be no genus but you have not understood what I wrote and was trying to convey.

To quote my post…”To win, you practice, you preserver, you sacrifice, so that on game day, whatever the game is, you can win. Practice, preparation is where the suffering and sacrifice Should Occur”.

Also wrote “If conditions in the game go bad, that’s that.” (Because you trained / practiced for that).

There is an old war fighter saying. You Train like you Fight and you Fight like you Train.

You and I are obviously not on the same wavelength because we now seem to be arguing the same point at each other.

Nope. But I'm beginning to think you're pure bullshit (or have no idea what you're talking about). But that's just MHO.

So answer me this genius. If you don't practice how to suffer while still competing well, how do you expect to perform when shit goes sideways?

Life never goes the way it should, so you practice for that eventuality. Otherwise, you're just practicing for optimum conditions. Anything else and you're not really pushing yourself to handle any situation.

I think the part you're missing is that club matches are training validation contests, designed to tell you if you're prepared to move to a higher level...even in poor or inclement conditions.

But, what do I know?

And yes, our matches continue to be held, and I'd argue, our club has an abnormally large group of very competitive shooters at the National level.

 

[MarinePMI]

You and I are obviously not on the same wavelength because we now seem to be arguing the same point at each other.

Well, when you call someone's comment "pure bullshit" then yeah, you kind of think you're not arguing the same thing.

 

[clefairy]

Well, when you call someone's comment "pure bullshit" then yeah, you kind of think you're not arguing the same thing.

You guys talking about suffering reminds me of this video below. Just two guys, measuring.

 

[MarinePMI]

You guys talking about suffering reminds me of this video below. Just two guys, measuring.

LOL! Are you sure you aren't projecting bro? It's early Sunday morning, shouldn't you be working out with your shake weight?

AFAF...

 

[Lowlight]

Cmon bro, everyone wants to talk about change but no one actually wants to change.

-George Washington

My moment has passed I did my part

Now it’s just nostalgia for me

 

[Rthur]

Nope. But I'm beginning to think you're pure bullshit (or have no idea what you're talking about). But that's just MHO.

So answer me this genius. If you don't practice how to suffer while still competing well, how do you expect to perform when shit goes sideways?

Life never goes the way it should, so you practice for that eventuality. Otherwise, you're just practicing for optimum conditions. Anything else and you're not really pushing yourself to handle any situation.

I think the part you're missing is that club matches are training validation contests, designed to tell you if you're prepared to move to a higher level...even in poor or inclement conditions.

But, what do I know?

And yes, our matches continue to be held, and I'd argue, our club has an abnormally large group of very competitive shooters at the National level.

R

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Well, when you call someone's comment "pure bullshit" then yeah, you kind of think you're not arguing the same thing.

My choice of wording was not the best and for that I do publicly apologize and am removing it from the original posting.

 

[EbTac]

So I believe Frank hits the nail on the head on a few points. One thing I've noticed this year strictly on the regional level is just how tight and far down the points are this year for the central region. Like having 9 shooters at 300. This was not this case last year. In my opinion on the regional level we are having too many qualifier matches and too many matches in general. This is only my second year competing in PRS matches and I've had a pretty decent year in my opinion for my skill level. For example I have,

2-2nd place finishes
1-6th place @qualifier
1-5th that has better points than my 2nd places finishes

I think I'm currently 72nd in the central region right now. You can creep on my shooter profile on PRS I don't have anything to prove to anyone. But to be 72nd is just a kick in the nuts in my opinion with those kind of scores. So my question is are we putting out too many qualifiers on the schedule??

Another topic I wanna bring up that I'm sure will really stir the pot. What's everyone's opinion on shooters with 300 season points still competing in regional matches while other people are really grinding for points or their first match win?

 

[Tx_Aggie]

So I believe Frank hits the nail on the head on a few points. One thing I've noticed this year strictly on the regional level is just how tight and far down the points are this year for the central region. Like having 9 shooters at 300. This was not this case last year. In my opinion on the regional level we are having too many qualifier matches and too many matches in general. This is only my second year competing in PRS matches and I've had a pretty decent year in my opinion for my skill level. For example I have,

2-2nd place finishes
1-6th place @qualifier
1-5th that has better points than my 2nd places finishes

I think I'm currently 72nd in the central region right now. You can creep on my shooter profile on PRS I don't have anything to prove to anyone. But to be 72nd is just a kick in the nuts in my opinion with those kind of scores. So my question is are we putting out too many qualifiers on the schedule??

Another topic I wanna bring up that I'm sure will really stir the pot. What's everyone's opinion on shooters with 300 season points still competing in regional matches while other people are really grinding for points or their first match win?

Wait...what?

 

[Tx_Aggie]

My moment has passed I did my part

Now it’s just nostalgia for me

Sorry to hear that Frank. And sorry I wasn't around back when you and Jacob were doing your thing.

 

[lash]

@EbTac, You sound like you’re whining because your two 2nds, a fifth, and a sixth place didn’t place you in the top ten. That’s not how it works.

You’re shooting good for your second year, but those top guys that already have their points are practicing and competing every match so that they’ll be ready for finals.

Would you set on your laurels if you were possibly in contention at the finals?

Or do you feel that they should just set it out to “make it fair”?

 

[Rob01]

Sorry to hear that Frank. And sorry I wasn't around back when you and Jacob were doing your thing.

You missed a good time.

 

[EbTac]

@EbTac, You sound like you’re whining because your two 2nds, a fifth, and a sixth place didn’t place you in the top ten. That’s not how it works.

You’re shooting good for your second year, but those top guys that already have their points are practicing and competing every match so that they’ll be ready for finals.

Would you set on your laurels if you were possibly in contention at the finals?

Or do you feel that they should just set it out to “make it fair”?

Haha no I'm definitely not whining. I'm pretty happy how I've competed this year on the regional level especially the shooters I've had to compete against.

No I don't think they should sit out of matches at all. Idk I'm probably way out of line here, but I feel if I was at that level and sitting at 300 points I'd still go compete to stay on point but I think the right thing to do would be telling the match director hey don't submitt my scores for today I'm just here for practice. Just my 2 cents that don't matter at all. I'll be honest it does suck to show up to a 1 day match and just get skull drug by pros on a monthly basis.

I will probably never have the time nor the resources to be able to shoot at a pro skill level.

I'm not whining by any means. I'm extremely happy for those guys that hit 300 and are extremely successful at every match they go to. They earned it. They put in that time and got very good. Just makes it difficult to show up to a match and get good points when 1st place beats 2nd place by 10 to 12 shots.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Haha no I'm definitely not whining. I'm pretty happy how I've competed this year on the regional level especially the shooters I've had to compete against.

No I don't think they should sit out of matches at all. Idk I'm probably way out of line here, but I feel if I was at that level and sitting at 300 points I'd still go compete to stay on point but I think the right thing to do would be telling the match director hey don't submitt my scores for today I'm just here for practice. Just my 2 cents that don't matter at all. I'll be honest it does suck to show up to a 1 day match and just get skull drug by pros on a monthly basis.

I will probably never have the time nor the resources to be able to shoot at a pro skill level.

I'm not whining by any means. I'm extremely happy for those guys that hit 300 and are extremely successful at every match they go to. They earned it. They put in that time and got very good. Just makes it difficult to show up to a match and get good points when 1st place beats 2nd place by 10 to 12 shots.

How long have these "Pros" been shooting competitively?

Man, being ranked 72nd in your region during only your second year is something to be proud of, not frustrated by. You're legitimately in the top 25% in a seriously competitive part of the county. Be proud of that, don't tarnish it by complaining that there are too many matches or too many competitive shooters in your area.

You've shot what, 10 regional matches this year? Keep doing that, combined with some deliberate and regular practice, and you should improve pretty rapidly. Maybe a class with the JTAC boys, if you haven't done that already.

 

[BurtG]

think the right thing to do would be telling the match director hey don't submitt my scores for today

 

[EbTac]

View attachment 8513610

You laugh but there are a handful of pros that actually request their scores not to be submitted. Trust me I get it, I'll catch alot of flack for that opinion.

 

[EbTac]

How long have these "Pros" been shooting competitively?

Man, being ranked 72nd in your region during only your second year is something to be proud of, not frustrated by. You're legitimately in the top 25% in a seriously competitive part of the county. Be proud of that, don't tarnish it by complaining that there are too many matches or too many competitive shooters in your area.

You've shot what, 10 regional matches this year? Keep doing that, combined with some deliberate and regular practice, and you should improve pretty rapidly. Maybe a class with the JTAC boys, if you haven't done that already.

Your not wrong trust me. Just wanted to bring up a talking point. Like one point no one has touched on is the amount of qualifier matches we had on schedule this year. Is more better? Or is less better quality?

 

[EbTac]

@Tx_Aggie unfortunately JTAC is out of my tax bracket

 

[BurtG]

 

[Makinchips208]

.

 

[Terry Cross]

Setting up and running matches, setting and resetting targets in the middle of the Louisiana summer with minimal or zero attendance, caused us to get out of the match business. We busted our ass, lost enough pre-biden dollars, and generally despite our best efforts accomplished little or maybe nothing for the sport. That made us believers, enough is enough.

Where were you running these matches and when?

 

[clefairy]

My moment has passed I did my part

Now it’s just nostalgia for me

You answered your original post. People will rather run what works today and continue to do their part until their moment has passed.

 

[Barelstroker]

It's all been seen before in other disciplines.
In the clay target sports for example; they've had handicap comps for decades. It didn't start off that way though. There was a gradual change in rules, target speed, target departure angle, shot size & weight & distance from the traps.
As sports mature from their inceptions, there is a growth in the number professionals or semi professionals which unintentionally hijack the sport until changes & systems are implemented, most often to address dwindling participation numbers.
There are a number of things I can think of such as changes in target size relative to shooter ability. Shooter grades, AA, A, B,C & etc.
There are many ways the sport can be improved from a competition perspective, it's more a question of the governing bodies willingness to make the changes.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Where were you running these matches and when?

I am a long time competitor in IHMSA. Where once, handgun matches proliferated in Louisiana and Mississippi and one had to make a reservation days if not weeks in advance to have a spot to shoot, participation had seriously fallen off. There were no Centerfire silhouette matches in Louisiana and only one in Mississippi.

In an effort to get the sport restarted, we rebuilt an old silhouette range on Transport road east of Weston, Louisiana in 2008 and held matches at that range (Handgun Silhouette) for four years. At first we were getting 20 or more entries. However, we ended when participation dropped to zero. Our Friend, Charlie Braud, took up the challenge and moved the matches to Top Shot in Hodge, Louisiana. As of the last two years, he has been the only competitor at those matches. The matches also host Cowboy small bore silhouette and as of late, only one competitor has shown up.

We go to Charlies’ matches just to try to meet old friends when we are in Louisiana. His last match, he set out some half scale silhouettes for Brenda and I to shoot. Charlie and I have discussed getting into the Precision Rifle matches. However, as I will be 76 in a few days and he is 74, we are both getting a bit long in the tooth to host, much less set up targets for matches.

Final thought. unless I can convince Charlie to give up his match date at Top Shot and use it to hold money making precision .22 matches (for us and for the range) and we are successful, he is going to loose his match date reservation.

This can be the future of PRS/NRL.

Note, because both handgun silhouette and rifle silhouette use a fixed course of fire, there is not an issue with the match director competing in the matches he/she is hosting. And, many of the complaints discussed in this thread were also brought forth on web IHMSA discussions in the early to mid 2000’s. (Too easy, guns too complicated/expensive, production class is a mess etc).

You asked.

 

[lash]

Your not wrong trust me. Just wanted to bring up a talking point. Like one point no one has touched on is the amount of qualifier matches we had on schedule this year. Is more better? Or is less better quality?

Consider that in order to qualify for semi-finals and finals, one must have shot a qualifier. If there were fewer qualifiers and local competitors had to travel 4-6 hours to attend a 1-day qualifier match, don’t you think that would be a bigger issue for those people than your perceived problem of too many qualifiers?

You really think that is what’s affecting quality of a match?

 

[Barelstroker]

I am a long time competitor in IHMSA. Where once, handgun matches proliferated in Louisiana and Mississippi and one had to make a reservation days if not weeks in advance to have a spot to shoot, participation had seriously fallen off. There were no Centerfire silhouette matches in Louisiana and only one in Mississippi.

In an effort to get the sport restarted, we rebuilt an old silhouette range on Transport road east of Weston, Louisiana in 2008 and held matches at that range (Handgun Silhouette) for four years. At first we were getting 20 or more entries. However, we ended when participation dropped to zero. Our Friend, Charlie Braud, took up the challenge and moved the matches to Top Shot in Hodge, Louisiana. As of the last two years, he has been the only competitor at those matches. The matches also host Cowboy small bore silhouette and as of late, only one competitor has shown up.

We go to Charlies’ matches just to try to meet old friends when we are in Louisiana. His last match, he set out some half scale silhouettes for Brenda and I to shoot. Charlie and I have discussed getting into the Precision Rifle matches. However, as I will be 76 in a few days and he is 74, we are both getting a bit long in the tooth to host, much less set up targets for matches.

Final thought. unless I can convince Charlie to give up his match date at Top Shot and use it to hold money making precision .22 matches (for us and for the range) and we are successful, he is going to loose his match date reservation.

This can be the future of PRS/NRL.

Note, because both handgun silhouette and rifle silhouette use a fixed course of fire, there is not an issue with the match director competing in the matches he/she is hosting. And, many of the complaints discussed in this thread were also brought forth on web discussions in the early to mid 2000’s. (Too easy, guns too complicated/expensive, production class is a mess etc).

You asked.

Yep, that's basically along the same lines I mentioned.
For guys who are interested & competitive, it's almost a dream to be recognised as a top shooter. The reality though, consists of guys who have the money & time to be the best &, that's ok & there's nothing wrong with that. I did that myself in sporting clays. Bought a new expensive shotgun, had it fitted to me, bought $5K worth of cartridges & spent the next 2 years practice shooting every spare moment I had &, I reloaded all those cartridges 3 x each as well. Cost me prolly 20K or more over about 3 1/2 years but I got to AA grade in relatively short time. The problem is, most guys can't afford that & they get jacked with never taking a win or even getting close so, they just fall away because they aren't competitive. That's where a shooting grading & handicap system get the average guys, who, are the bread & butter of most clubs, a fighting chance to win legitimately against those who simply have more time & money at their disposal. I've heard the argument a dozen times about whether or not a financial advantage is a legitimate advantage. My thinking is that there can be "winner takes all" no handicap matches. That's only fair to the guys who can afford to boost themselves but, they have to have competed in a certain number of handicap comps throughout the year to qualify for open entry. So no four flushers or dark horses &, they pay hard to play hard.
During most of the season with a grade system, the AA boys have to work their ass's off to keep their status but, cannot fall below "A" grade, ever, no matter how badly they may score. So no grade sitters or circling sharks.
There's plenty that can be done to enhance the competitive enjoyment for all the members &, it's a far better settup than watching the sharks bleed the comp dry & destroy the discipline as a result.
To be honest, it's a wonder that PRS has gone this long without having done something about the situation.
As much as I hate to say it, there's unspoken volumes right there with regard to the motivation of the guys running the show. I don't believe their priority is in the welfare of the sport.
Just sayin.

 

[Emerson0311]

Yep, that's basically along the same lines I mentioned.
For guys who are interested & competitive, it's almost a dream to be recognised as a top shooter. The reality though, consists of guys who have the money & time to be the best &, that's ok & there's nothing wrong with that. I did that myself in sporting clays. Bought a new expensive shotgun, had it fitted to me, bought $5K worth of cartridges & spent the next 2 years practice shooting every spare moment I had &, I reloaded all those cartridges 3 x each as well. Cost me prolly 20K or more over about 3 1/2 years but I got to AA grade in relatively short time. The problem is, most guys can't afford that & they get jacked with never taking a win or even getting close so, they just fall away because they aren't competitive. That's where a shooting grading & handicap system get the average guys, who, are the bread & butter of most clubs, a fighting chance to win legitimately against those who simply have more time & money at their disposal. I've heard the argument a dozen times about whether or not a financial advantage is a legitimate advantage. My thinking is that there can be "winner takes all" no handicap matches. That's only fair to the guys who can afford to boost themselves but, they have to have competed in a certain number of handicap comps throughout the year to qualify for open entry. So no four flushers or dark horses &, they pay hard to play hard.
During most of the season with a grade system, the AA boys have to work their ass's off to keep their status but, cannot fall below "A" grade, ever, no matter how badly they may score. So no grade sitters or circling sharks.
There's plenty that can be done to enhance the competitive enjoyment for all the members &, it's a far better settup than watching the sharks bleed the comp dry & destroy the discipline as a result.

That’s a really good description of what is happening where I see.

 

[Hickswr]

Competitions are just that, compete amongst peers.

Train and practice on your own time and show up to a match to “compete”.

I’m sure glad the football games played on Saturday are competitions and not training sessions