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So over the Contrived and Repetitive Nature of Stages today
- Thread starter Lowlight
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lol. You misread my response. I only pointed out that I’ve been a member since 2012 because you keep insisting that nobody in the sport wants change and it’s only outsiders and new guys (well and now old guys) that are the need for change.
And despite your dedicated ignorance and willingness to believe that no change is needed, I’ll point out that many of the changes that PRS has instituted, albeit slowly, were first brought up and discussed here on Snipers Hide. All the while, those that were blind insisted that no change was needed.
Without input and improvement, no organization can continue for very long. The shooting disciplines discussed in this very thread that have faded away will attest to that. Long range silhouette came about in the 70s and existed for many years. Yet, they did not change and so have faded into the sunset, as have many similar shooting sports.
Your refusal to believe that incremental change is not only needed but necessary is saddening to those of us that know.
Without growth there is death and there can be no growth without change.
It’s not specifically about the range as much as it is the level of match that a qualifier is intended to be. I know that qualifiers in this region are a step more difficult than the everyday local match.
Yeah that is generally known knowledge. But for instance oklahoma matches and qualifiers are generally same difficulty given our denominator is generally the wind.
I think this may be the progression of all of the different disciplines. I can’t think of one shooting sport that hasn’t grown to a point, then slowly dwindled as people moved to the next best thing.
All of the NRA sports are like this. Our LR state championship used to be 90+ shooters, this year it was like 12. The juniors we would have had went to PRS or 3 gun style matches. F class is maybe prolonging this, but it’s just a matter of time when the average age of a competitor is 60+. Same with small bore, etc. unless you’re trying to get into the Olympics or get a colleges scholarship, who shoots it anymore? Across the course is next. Bullseye pistol. You name it. NRAs corruption didn’t help any either.
I wonder, overall, what the percentage of people who compete is and how it compares over the last 24-30 years.
I wonder how much participation in every outdoor activity has declined.
Hunting / sports etc. Everyone is addicted to screens and getting lazier. Playgrounds are empty you hardly see kids outside these days
US population :
There is a bigger issue with hunting, which is accessibility. At least in TN. Public last is shit, and private is so expensive you may just as well buy a side of beef. I haven’t bought a license in 4 years, and I was a Sportsman purchase each year. That said, I shoot more matches in SEP-NOV as I’m not in a tree stand so the shooting has increased, even if my freezer is barren of venison.
You’re on point with people glued to these fucking phones…
Tell me a shooting sport that has lasted the test of time. Your optimism in prs is adorable. Why aren’t CD matches and the likes taking over if it’s really the better way?
You won’t see the voice on the hide is small compared to the majority. And you don’t want to do the work yourself.
Work vs complaining; we both know what we like doing more, one’s just more honest.
I’m an MD. I am doing the work.
I can think of a few but, maybe you're right because there are quite a few that haven't & I have to concede that I don't know what the cause was.
If this is the reality, the thinking may have to be that regular changes be introduced or, maybe there's not much can be done & there needs to be a "new Fad".
I know that covid bullshit took a heavy toll on our participation numbers. I'm not sure if the numbers are improving slowly or the rot has set in for good. Time will tell I suppose.
The hunting numbers graph blows me away. Over 16,000,000 hunters in the 80's.
Mind boggling.
Absolutely.....those things have gutted our social structure &, just about everything else that made us Human. Fucking things.
The biggest threat humanity has ever faced, a true scourge.
I would like to comment on this. I am a child of the 1950’s, a teen of the 1960’s. In 1960, at the age of 11, both my parents worked, I was given free rein. They expected me to be back by supper time. We spent the entire day on the bayou. (If not out in the Chauvin Swamp) Our parents never worried about much, they knew we were excellent swimmers so they did nto fear us on the water. The big thing was child predators, They were hardly, if ever, heard of. Children were safe. I might add that it was one hell of a fun childhood. (Except school, I hated school).
In these days and times we all complain that our children live on a computer. Never go outside. Never play any sports except what they are forced to do in school PE (if the school has pe, everyone is so worried about passing “the Test.”
But laziness may not be the entire problem. We raised our son in the country. It was reasonably safe. But in the city? I would not let him out of my sight. I wonder how many parents, keep their children on very tight reins, for fear of two things. Child predators for some and joining gangs for the other. Keep them safe, because it truly is a very dangerous world out there for children.
Parents who have the time can take thier children to the playgrounds, but in these days of biden economics, who has the time, its work, work work, have to pay the food and rent. I realize parents arn't perfect and in fact some of them arn't worth the cost of the bullet needed to shoot them. Being a former teacher, I’ve seen both, best and worthless.
However, I fear that fear is what is destroying our children. The welfare program, only providing for single parents, cutting off married families has pretty much destroyed the American family.
Off the top of my head I would say ones that allow the most common firearms, maybe broken down into levels of shooters, a consistent organizational structure with a training and vetting system for the match directors?
I don't do much now other than go to a couple local ranges to do my own thing. While I may the time, me personally I don't care to spend the money on the associated fees, travel, etc. I used to shoot IPSC, High Power, local action pistol matches and precision matches, 1K and 300/600 "modern military" I was for over 20 years one of three guys who ran a LE only "duty gear" matches. I can say that it's hard work and nobody gives a shit about helping set up, etc.
I can say that all the above were within 30 minutes from my house which made it easy in regards to time spent and cost.
Any discipline can suffer from a poorly run match, a dishonest MD or group running the match, I never shot IDPA in my area as the club was run by the dad, son and a couple close friends, mainly formed a "club" and if you weren't "in it" you were penalized for anything they could in order for the club to have the top spots.
Does the same thing happen in the PRS circuit? I have no clue.
In my opinion Frank would like to see more of the "spirit" of the Rifleman. It's based on reading here, a game with folks using highly specialized rifles, support equipment, stuff for the most part isn't practical in the real world. Don't get me wrong, gear and technolgy has changed, will continue to and if applicable, take advantage of it if that to enhance your abilities to accomplish a task.
Maybe break it down to Hunter, Tactical and Match classes, adjust the target size, distance, time, type of gear, etc. Let the shooter decide how they would like to compete that way they can control the spending at least with support gear and money spent of a rifle and scope.
The MD that ran the local rifle matches would break down the 300, 600 and 1k matches into Vintage Sniper, Modern Military, Match and Open, so you maybe shooting a 338 whizbang while the shooter next to you would be spanking a Mauser.
Oh well, enough ramble for the night, old man has to sleep, hope the above helps.
One last point to ponder--if there wasn't a prize table--would their be less participation?
I do what I can.
Maybe if you payed attention to what you read and stopped being an ass for a bit you’d know. But I feel no compunction to answer to your combative ass. Have a nice day.
Take a look at the IWI Gas Gun Challenge...I'm the MD. We run fast stages (90sec), fun, odd props (airplane and such) and engagements that will truly challenge your equipment, your skills and you'll probably make some new friends.
Robin Gilmore, MD
Robin Gilmore, MD
You need to ban the transformers. They are a safety hazard in so many ways
I would like to jump in! For 37 years I shot IHMSA sillouette I saw it go from full 2 day matches to total death!!! Low light is correct to keep PRS from dieing you need two things a classing system, and help the new shooter with spotting calls!!!!! I am 68 years old I still move pretty well my firearm shoots in the .300,s and I like to shoot long range. BUT from a bottom of the list shooter What I see from down here is ( as it was so eliquently put at our finally match) ( you lower shooters shoudn't expect to do well this match is set up for the top shooters) The stages are more about how complicated they can be then marksmanship. I come to stage do all the right things and shoot a perfect hole in the ground 2 inches off the target while 5 guys stand there looking throught 2000 dollar spoting scopes and can't say anything until after you are done missing then they say oh you were off just a little!!!! Even our finest military snipers shoot in teams! I want to tell you I enjoy time shooting with my son and some mighty fine other people BUT like I have told our local state and the national directors unless you change soon YOUR SPORT IS GOING TO BE DEAD IN 5 YEARS! Rant over OH and I am from WISCONSIN
You realize it's not a team sport right? Part of the engagement on the clock is seeing your miss and making a correction. Per the rules coaching on the clock is not allowed. If you are brand new most regional matches will allow the RO to give a little help but if you expect it all the time then this is the wrong sport. Part of getting better is being able to do this.
Totally understand the no help spotting and no classes will slowly have the middle and lower shooters walk away. When matches are designed for the top 20 shooters the rest will stop paying 75-100 per match to come and watch. Over the years I have seen many new shooting sports come and go mostly for the same reasons they start out to be fun for everyone and they evolve for the top shooters and the ones in the middle and lower pay for the top shooter’s to have fun.
In my view a properly designed match has 50-60% of the targets are “meatball” targets somewhat easy to shoot. And the remaining ones are harder to much harder. These are to separate the top shooters
No those rules will not drive people away. Those rules were in effect at most all matches before PRS was a thing and the rules rolled over from those matches. The PRS did not start this sport. Just a part of it.
And part of the sport is to try and get better. Not just your placement but your personal skill level. If you don't see that then not sure what to say. If you are not having fun then don't do it.
In defense of lash, If the match is within the rules of the national organization, you do what you can do, but options are limited.I do what I can.
Maybe if you payed attention to what you read and stopped being an ass for a bit you’d know. But I feel no compunction to answer to your combative ass. Have a nice day.
Altus as run outlaw matches for the last couple of years. I have to say they are a lot of fun. But too many folks are looking for points, Points rule, what we want and what we can have often makes for hard choices and mad folks.
I would like to add, at this year’s IHMSA International, they drew 79 shooters. In that sport you can enter more than one class of firearm and shoot multiple entries, but in the entire world, 79 people showed up for the annual championship. As @ramslammer said, it used to be full two day LOCAL matches. This was for a full centerfire, small bore (22lr) and air handgun firearms.
I shot a centerfire PRS match at Altus Saturday a week ago and a PRS .22 match the following Sunday. We had 60 shooters on Saturday and 24 shooters on Sunday. 84 people; more than a sports world championship where anyone who is a member can show up and shoot. .
Sports die, Some totally go away. Some settle back into something of a niche but they keep on going. Sailing is a good example. Once front page news, now still participated worldwide. They pine about growth, and do have occasional spurts of growth but in the end it reminds relatively stable. Young people come in, old people stay as long as they can. How does this happen? Young people sail Lazers, catamarans, racing scows, Blindly fast, wet, often overturned but exciting. Older folks sail larger sloops, with full interiors, comfortable, seaworthy not nearly as wet nor as fast but far more comfortable and still sailing. The sport fits people not people having to fit the sport.
New sports? Wonder how the current “wonder sports” such as pickle ball, corn hole will last. Neither seem the least bit interesting to me, but they do move people off the couch and outdoors. That’s important. And they are sports that in someways fit people more than people fitting the sport.
I understand that Percision Rifle is not a team sport. But growth is important. To make the sport “growable” it must accommodate newer/young/very old members. I do like Altus method of having diabolically difficult stages back to back with stages that a weak shooter can score well on if not clean. Too easy, No! Too hard for every stage, will drive the weaker shooters away. But If a shooter in my current age and class can clean every stage in a match, it’s not worth the time to even show up. Same if I can’t hit hardly any targets at all. You cool kids may not like it, but there has to be middle ground. Otherwise, you will find yourselves with no ground.
In the end I stand on my two points of successful matches.
1. The Point of shooting steel is shooting steel. Because shooting dirt is pretty much pointless because dirt is already pretty much dead.
2.. (regarding any sport) It has to have a point, it either has to be fun, or it has to be a challenge of accomplishment or, it has to make you a living. Anything else, is just a waste of your time.
Final thought, it’s fun to watch a great competitor. But EVERY sport is built on its base. Without its base/foundation, it’s going to fail.
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Make a way for people to compete in spotter / observer teams but their total score is cut in half at the end of the day.
Charge 150% of the entry fee for these teams.
-Stan
Charge 150% of the entry fee for these teams.
-Stan
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No, give them all their points, but they are no longer in contention of placement in the overall. Its ok to get help, but I can’t agree that they or me for that matter, gets a placement over others who did it the “right” way.
Part of the issue is all the manufacturers sell products that support open division.
Love these types of matches. Here in the south, the Guardian Team matches in Georgia and (now no longer) South Carolina are sooooo much fun! They seem very simular to what you're discussing.
6 minute par times
Blind stages that often include a pistol component
Targets have to be found, ranged, and doped; just like any real world scenerio
The physical and mental stressors add a unique challenge. Things I've had to do:
-fast rope down a pipe and sprint through it to the FFP
-Navigate a building from memory during the stage brief and shoot Ranger Grunts with pistol sim rounds
-Pistol fire from the bed of a moving flat bed truck
-Solve a riddle from pre match intelligence to escape a room to get to the FFP
The list is endless on things you can do with a little imagination.
Manufacturers are not just supporting the open division - completely made up
I had the largest prize tables ever in the SHC they support the shooters not just the open shooters and giving a $3k prize to sponsored open guy who gets a picture with the box and then sells it for $2500 is not the ROI they wanted.
They actually want people to use their stuff not sell it. They want to see a shooter posting about it on their rifle and how winning it was awesome. What you never see
I had the largest prize tables ever in the SHC they support the shooters not just the open shooters and giving a $3k prize to sponsored open guy who gets a picture with the box and then sells it for $2500 is not the ROI they wanted.
They actually want people to use their stuff not sell it. They want to see a shooter posting about it on their rifle and how winning it was awesome. What you never see
This problem is not limited to PRS. Top shooters in every sport win plenty of things and sell it. At the end of the day, someone gets the prize... And it's usually the one who performs "the best" (in whatever definition people see that as).
I was fortunate to shoot the AI Fall Brawl this year in Virginia and they had an interesting format for the prize table that was really refreshing.
The top 3 teams got checks (paid out from a portion of entry fees) with trophies for the top 5.
The best prizes were used as stage prizes, with the top team for each stage being awarded the prizes donated by manufacturer who sponsored that stage, with the added wrinkle that a team could only win one stage prize. For example, if the high team on stage 1 also won stage 12, they picked the one they wanted and then the team that scored 2nd on the other stage became that stage's "winner."
The rest of the prize table was done as a random draw, and still included some pretty swanky stuff such as Proof barrel certs, KGM suppressor certs, various certs for discounts on actions & chassis, a nice selection of Vortex & Leupold optics, some product from Geissele, etc. I think everyone who showed up for the match left with something nice.
And at least one of the AI sponsored shooters who won the match donated his stage win prize to a newer shooter.
For years, decades, maybe even centuries people have made fun of students, alumni and fans of Texas A&M. Yet it took an Aggie to get the prize table squared away. Best idea I've seen yet @Tx_Aggie
People have been using this method, drawings, to give away prize table/end of presentation/etc gifts ever since I can remember. When I made presentations to the Special Education Meetings in Lafayette, that's what we did. Takes a smart fellow from Texas to bring it to the front.
People have been using this method, drawings, to give away prize table/end of presentation/etc gifts ever since I can remember. When I made presentations to the Special Education Meetings in Lafayette, that's what we did. Takes a smart fellow from Texas to bring it to the front.
Random draw sucks. I thought it 15-20 years ago when I was top 5 shooter and think it now when I am a mid pack shooter. Might as well give everyone a trophy too. LOL
Nah. War gas gun has random match. It’s great. And I’ve been top 5 every time I’ve shot except when I had silencer debris giving me malfunctions at last match
50 shooters and 10-20 prizes is good odds
Never been to a meeting where they are giving away potted plants and other associate goodies? ( that my Brenda can kill dead unless I take care of it.
) Heck, as a teacher, being The One Person who does not get a prize is definitely The Winner!Yeah, I agree. But I liked the combination of cash payout to the top teams, earned prizes for the stage winners, and random draw for everything else. Seemed a bit like the best of both worlds.
I can't take credit for the idea as it wasn't mine. That belongs entirely to the Match Director. He's a pretty amazing guy (but not an Aggie).
PRS is a joke. Guys running around with all kinds of shit with a 30lb rifle. Reminds me of guys riding bikes with spandex on or the effeminate hipster in skinny jeans. If you don’t know what I’m talking about then you’re the guy I’m talking about.
Just sell your rifle and go golfing.
Just sell your rifle and go golfing.
Now hold on there. The spandex is not for looks. It is for support and protection.. when a fellow or lady finishes their ride, they got something down there that they want to still work. Get my drift.
See.
Now here’s the guy that either is too afraid to show up and compete. Or. Went once. Realized how terrible he is at shooting and will never come back.
Tell ya what. Grab your 30lb rifle and all your pillows, then we’ll go for a 10 mile walk in the woods then shoot from an unsupported position in the dirt and see how that goes.
In today's world, Divisions for the table are better and give you a Pipeline for growth
A division can be the Top 15% and trickle down from there ...
And if you rate the shooter by their division you have a pipeline for growth, you can use it for a host of reasons.
The divisions need a fix anyway, you can use it to simplify things
A division can be the Top 15% and trickle down from there ...
And if you rate the shooter by their division you have a pipeline for growth, you can use it for a host of reasons.
The divisions need a fix anyway, you can use it to simplify things
What’s a tripod? I use sticks and some rope to tie them together.
Just because you can walk 10 miles don't mean you can make a solid wind call.
Why does no one want copy USPSA to an extent on divisions? Or classifiers. I'd like to see weight divisions or skill based divisions in PRS.
