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So over the Contrived and Repetitive Nature of Stages today
- Thread starter Lowlight
- Start date
Because there are nearly 40,000 USPSA members, compared with about 1000 dues paying PRS Pro Series members.
I think USPSA style classifications would be a positive change, but it would add a ton of work for a relatively small organization with a fraction of the membership of USPSA.
Edit: There actually is a classification system currently in the Pro Series. But as far as awards it’s only really used to award trophies & occasionally prizes to the top shooters of each of the classes below pro at 2-day matches.
There aren’t separate awards for the top 3-5 shooters in each classification. And there aren’t formal classifier matches.
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Yeah i know about the pro series classification, but in order to be classified you have to shoot a minimum of 3 matches then you get your classification at the end of the year based on where you fell in the overall points for the year.
I think if they implemented classifier stages you would see a better breakdown of skill across the board. Also I like the idea of implementing the classification system down to the regional level as well.
Not a bad idea being OPPS has an annual meeting for its members and actually discuss ideas and potential rule changes and everyone votes.
That’s why prize tables should be a random draw. Giving the same half dozen shooters the goods does sweet fuck all for the match.
Great, except one thing. The PRS shooters all expect that even small local matches give out trophies or plaques at every match. True story.
It’s already a big cost with 1st-3rd Open, Ladies, Juniors, Seniors, Production, mil/LE awards needed at every match. Add classifications and I’d be out. It’s barely break even now for me, if that.
It’s more important to me to provide an opportunity for those in my area to compete and to try and draw new shooters into the fun of doing so. Young people especially.
It’s easy to throw ideas out and to see what will stick. Actually making them happen as an MD faced with reality is less easy, by far.
So glad my rifle is 28 lbs 4 oz then. Phew...
I get where you are coming from. Most local matches I've shot only give a trophy to first place overall. No one is telling you that you gotta hand out a trophy for every division/ class.
I would just like to see our current classification system or a different one that we have in the pro series down on the regional level.
I pay a what $55 membership just so PRS can put my points into a database. Adding a classification system isn't Adding all that much to a pre existing data base.
I only shoot one range that gives trophies to 1st 2nd and 3rd open. 1st lady,1st Jr and Mil/Leo.
If this says anything at one range we generally have more shooters that are not PRS members than shooters who are members. I haven't seen much from PRS itself to "grow the sport"
It's pretty much every match director for himself from what little I have seen. Do you get any help from PRS or even the Regional directors in your region? I'd like to know more about the ins and out of the organization but everything always seems tight lipped. I have huge respect for guys who host matches. I've seen my fair share of a range getting screwed over by PRS for no reason at all other than poor leadership.
Personal opinion alert: The big steel trophies are cool and all, but I'd rather them be reserved for the Finale and just get medals/coins at regional matches. It's something the PRS could make a more or less standard item that can be more easily displayed, stored, whatever.
I've got so many giant metal/stone trophies that are all completely different for mounting/display and take up space... Like a single display case with a bunch of coins would be easier on all fronts.
It seems like you might not have spent a lot of time really thinking about the size of the PRS (membership numbers and what role that might play in revenue generation).
There's always lots of talk on here that operates under the assumption the PRS a giant organization that generates a ton of cash off its members. It might be illuminating for you to take a moment to do some math on membership numbers, fees paid, and what portion of a shooter's match fee actually goes back to the organization. Much of the data needed to figure this out is available on the PRS website.
Do tell... What sort of system are we talking about, and how could it be implemented that it wouldn't add much if any work to the existing score keeping system?
Chris is angling for me to do something, I might host a few small ones to implement my ideas.
I can do .22 easy, even the home range works, for center fire id want more, so we will see, he was on me last night to create a better experience, maybe …
There are so many great ideas that don’t get used because of the resistance to change things, I mean if it was me, the moment the finale was over I would putting out changes for the next year, you never rest
I can do .22 easy, even the home range works, for center fire id want more, so we will see, he was on me last night to create a better experience, maybe …
There are so many great ideas that don’t get used because of the resistance to change things, I mean if it was me, the moment the finale was over I would putting out changes for the next year, you never rest
We trained and exhibited horses in the 80’s and 90’s. We left for a couple of reasons, our son was seriously allergic to everything in a horse barn (and training horses takes a serious amount of time away from the family) and we were losing our shirt every month. We sold the farm, and built a nice little cottage on a lake. (Even paying for the home we were saving money compared to the horse business.) Our son became a nationally ranked water skier. I participated in tournaments as well. When he graduated from high school and realized he wanted to be a college graduate and an Air Force officer instead of a professional water skier who made his living waiting tables at a local restaurant, I lost my skiing buddy. As we had been shooting forever, I took up handgun silhouette. But still, i needed something physical, so I took up cycling. Became a Time Trialist. In Senior Olympics, locally i made the podium and even finished on top reasonably often (locally).
Point. I have a ton of trophies, ribbons, medals. Tons, they are stashed everywhere but mostly in the attic except those in the bike shop. (I rebuild bikes for poor folks, so I needed a shop). This is just the cycling medals.
Frankly, I’ve lost count.
What means far, far more to me than dozens upon dozens of pieces of cloth and medal are these two things, both published on the internet.
I’m the fat fellow on the left, 2nd place in our age division at the Louisiana / Mississippi State Time Trial championships
And this taken at Altus during the PRS 22 match late this past September.
Recognition is everlasting, medals and trophies wind up in the attic.
Attachments
Are you kidding it’s 90% automated, we did all this without practiscore or IPads, every sport does this stuff today.
Look at the Tennis stuff I pulled out, especially today one computer and it’s complete, We just think cause we dont;work in this field, computers it’;s harder than it is, it’s not it’s bone simple to set this stuff up
The PRS charges “Blank of the PRS” $50k they take in advertising too, not just memberships, they also charge $3 per score entered for every match so the MD does the work, uploads to PRS and pays them. There is other revenue beyond the membership they are a marketing company selling all your data. All they have are shooter lists, but there are sponsors too.
Universal Tennis Rankings, it’s giant, look at Archery, a great pipeline for new people if you dont’ want to do pistol sports
We have models to follow that are successful just takes the will
why not just use the same classification system that already exists in the pro series? Thats your easiest route.
PRO Series Classification Bracket Percentages:
Professional – First 20%
Semi-Professional – Next 25%
Marksman – Next 25%
Amateur – Remaining shooters (approx. 30%)
Percentages are broken down from the total number of shooters, based on yearly standings. The number of shooters included in each class will be rounded up or down to the nearest whole number. Tied shooters who fall into 2 separate classes based on the percentages will be classed up into the higher class. The “classed up shooters” former positions will remain unfilled in the lower class. Top shooters within each classification will be allowed to attend the PRS Pro Series finale, fostering growth and encouraging participation at all levels. Shooters with no previous year end-of-season series score will be titled “unclassed” (UNC) for the current season. These “unclassed” shooters will receive a classification before the finale based on the current season series scores and may be eligible for entry into the finale. Regional Series implementation will take place when each region hits a 400-500 shooter threshold. Rimfire Series implementation will take place when each region hits a 200-300 shooter threshold.
It’s funny there is minor drama with the PRS and IPRF right now cause of taxing a shooters and the optics surrounding the drama, so I was contacted last night over it. After the drama part was over I was asked a question about the organization and I gave my feedback based on he conversations I had in Cameo. It was welcomed they appreciated it, but what it was about is the surprising part.
The IPRF and PRS have different rules technically and they gloss over them, so I was initially curious how the AI ATX was a factory rifle, but it lead to me asking Team USA shooters how they qualified for the event. Only 1 out of 5 could tell me how they qual’d most said I don’t know I just shot my Normal matches and qual ‘d but it’s different here vs there. So even these guys are disorganized and have no idea they just threw everything together and called it a sport
In a way it matters, short term at a local match not so much but big pictures, looking in from out, if it makes no sense why would you join ? More road blocks to growing the sport
The IPRF and PRS have different rules technically and they gloss over them, so I was initially curious how the AI ATX was a factory rifle, but it lead to me asking Team USA shooters how they qualified for the event. Only 1 out of 5 could tell me how they qual’d most said I don’t know I just shot my Normal matches and qual ‘d but it’s different here vs there. So even these guys are disorganized and have no idea they just threw everything together and called it a sport
In a way it matters, short term at a local match not so much but big pictures, looking in from out, if it makes no sense why would you join ? More road blocks to growing the sport
My point being that it's stupid a shooter has to shoot 3 pro matches just to get his/her classification at the end of the year. That's a shit ton of money just in match fees alone for a person.
It makes more sense to implement the classification on the regional level wether it be where you finished in points for the year or a new system like classifier stages or any other idea.
Hardly anyone in this thread is throwing out ideas to discuss. Most of you are just sitting back defending the stagnant waters saying it's just too much work and effort.
It makes more sense to implement the classification on the regional level wether it be where you finished in points for the year or a new system like classifier stages or any other idea.
Hardly anyone in this thread is throwing out ideas to discuss. Most of you are just sitting back defending the stagnant waters saying it's just too much work and effort.
The average pro is doing about 10 matches a year, I know Keith Baker did like 38 as part of MDT, some of the Team Guys are into the 20s with matches, I want to say I saw Andy Slade did 25.
I don’t think many can get away with the minimum number of matches anymore. Not unless they just want to qual and not be really competitive
I sure as hell can't afford it. I'm lucky if I get to shoot 2 pro matches next year. And I'm lucky, where I'm located I've got 3 pro matches within a 3 hr drive of me.
Again talking about the pro level and how many PRO level matches it takes to Qualify is completely missing the point of were you need to get growth. Just like when the MD tells the group of shooters at the safety briefing that the match is set up for the top shooters and the middle and lower shouldn’t expect to do well soon the middle and lower are not going to participate and the the sport dies.
Where does it say that you have to shoot 3 “pro level matches” in order to get a classification?
Your right it does not say you need 3 matches to earn a classification. But being the series is based off an accumulation of a shooters 3 best matches 1 of which being a qualifier. One would assume your gonna need 3 match scores to get a classification.
I don’t golf but how many people that like to golf go pay an insane amount of $ just to “watch” the best golfers in country play?
How much more would they pay to play on the same course at the same time as the elite players???
For the price of an entry fee to a PRS match, you get to not only “watch” the best in your area but you essentially get free training and can pick their brains (at the appropriate time) along the way. If you look at this way, it’s really not such a bad setup at all.
If the only pleasure folks get from shooting PRS is getting a trophy, then you are shooting for the wrong reasons anyways. You are really only competing against yourself anyways.
And anyway, his contention was that you need to shoot in three “pro” matches (I assume he means two day matches) in order to earn a classification. That’s different than earning a spot in the finals
However, if you are not shooting lots of matches as you mention above, you’ll not make it to the finale anyway. That’s honestly no different than in many of these other sports being used as examples.
And Frank, I’m not defending what is in place, I’m trying to keep the bullshit down to sensible levels so that we’re discussing what actually is and not what is perceived to be.
I applaud any positive changes that you, through your platforms and with your name, can bring about. As a small local MD with no aspirations to be more, I do what I can within the structure that won’t kill the only local match in this part of the state.
I did outlaw matches for quite a while and they dried up even though they were enjoyed and created some current top shooters. People wanted more recognition than a simple read down of the standings at the end of the match.
I expect that you’ll have much more success and look forward to seeing it.
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I was pointing out that your wording of “pro level matches” was misleading and implying that these matches all have to be 2-day big dollar matches.
The qualifier is necessary if you want to have a better chance at getting invited to the finale. It does not say that you need 3 series scores to be classified. You published the exact words above on this very page. Nowhere does it say three scores are necessary to be classed. Assume all you want.
Yes in order to get a classification you have to shoot in the pro series "2 day matches" and must have paid membership into the pro series.
I didn't realize I needed to be any clearer than I already have been. Most of this is pretty common knowledge if you just skim through the rule book.
I didn't realize I needed to be any clearer than I already have been. Most of this is pretty common knowledge if you just skim through the rule book.
The shooter’s end-of-season total must be
comprised of three pro series match scores to be included in the class calculations.
2.11.10 Upon recalculation of shooter classes each season, if a shooter’s season score
is in a higher classification bracket, the member will be moved to that class. If the
shooter’s season score is in a lower classification bracket, they will not be moved to a
lower class and will retain the highest class they have earned.
2.11.11 Shooters with a longer PRS score history, that began prior to the institution of
the classification system, may request to be placed in a class that is representative of
their series placements in previous years. The member must send a letter stating the
reasons for reclassification. After the request has been received, the member’s scores
will be checked to see whether there are any recent scores that indicate the member is
properly classified. If the request is granted, the class will be updated on the website.
The PRS reserves the right to place a shooter in an appropriate class, based
comprised of three pro series match scores to be included in the class calculations.
2.11.10 Upon recalculation of shooter classes each season, if a shooter’s season score
is in a higher classification bracket, the member will be moved to that class. If the
shooter’s season score is in a lower classification bracket, they will not be moved to a
lower class and will retain the highest class they have earned.
2.11.11 Shooters with a longer PRS score history, that began prior to the institution of
the classification system, may request to be placed in a class that is representative of
their series placements in previous years. The member must send a letter stating the
reasons for reclassification. After the request has been received, the member’s scores
will be checked to see whether there are any recent scores that indicate the member is
properly classified. If the request is granted, the class will be updated on the website.
The PRS reserves the right to place a shooter in an appropriate class, based
Yes, you are right. I stand corrected on that point.
Shows you how much I care about the pro series. No at all. I think I’ve made it clear that while I create courses of fire that will challenge the “pros”, my intent is always to balance it out with stages that are accessible to new and middle pack shooters. I state that at the beginning of every match and it’s in my match descriptions on both PRS and PractiScore sites.
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@lash
I did learn something though looking at the rules a little closer regarding having classifications on the regional level.
Regional Series implementation will take place when each region hits a 400-500 shooter threshold. Rimfire Series implementation will take place when each region hits a 200-300 shooter threshold.
While I think those number are a little steep on the centerfire side atleast there is hope.
I did learn something though looking at the rules a little closer regarding having classifications on the regional level.
Regional Series implementation will take place when each region hits a 400-500 shooter threshold. Rimfire Series implementation will take place when each region hits a 200-300 shooter threshold.
While I think those number are a little steep on the centerfire side atleast there is hope.
You are doing the right thing. I've always had the opinion no matter how hard or easy you make a match your top shooters will always be successful. At the same time the match needs to be beneficial for newer shooters. Prime example for me was at this year's Okie Showdown at fouled bore. Watts made the target's very generous in size. I learned more those 2 days than I ever have at any match that has small targets. It allowed me to learn to make micro corrections on plate. It made me learn how to spot impacts on plate better.
My opinion a shooter doesn't gain much from a very difficult COF with short par times. I shot a match a few weeks that destroyed me because I had never shot in 1:45 par time. I felt rushed the entire match and felt I barely had time to watch my shots land. I had 49/99 impacts. out of damn near 100 shooters and somehow managed to come in 37th lmao.
@Lowlight Why would you join? Unless you really are in contention to win the “final” or are going after one of the prestigious matches such as the AG Cup or the World Championship, what real benefit does a local shooter get? (Other than supporting the organization which may or may not be really working for the sport). And I have seen far too many national organizations that have goals that totally ignore the average paying member.
At least the NRA sends us a magazine.
At least the NRA sends us a magazine.
I have no intention of joining them, Chris just wanted a better option for matches
There is always issues either big or small and for 90% of the people out there it’s not worth complaining. This is the thing, the better guys alibi and complain for every point, the average guys don’t care.
So aside from stage variety there are administrative and logistical issues I think we can solve so he wants to try a few things
There is always issues either big or small and for 90% of the people out there it’s not worth complaining. This is the thing, the better guys alibi and complain for every point, the average guys don’t care.
So aside from stage variety there are administrative and logistical issues I think we can solve so he wants to try a few things
This. If you are a chronic competitor like me, the random rewards pile up and take up space until I move on to a different hobby and clean out the storage room. Honestly no one gives a fuck on Monday unless it’s the nationals. Any regional/national class competitor can choose classes and matches to shoot that will allow the collection of easy self pleasure trophies. I remember when I was competitive with a shooter I admire, not what place I finished.
I’m going to take this to heart. Two matches ago, I did medallions except for first open an Junior and they were well received. They aren’t honestly any cheaper, but that’s not the point.
Anything that keeps MDs in the game and new-ish shooters/competitors showing up is a victory. The last Rimfire fun day I facilitated, the pastor’s little girl was ecstatic and ran to tell her dad she put 10/10 on a 1/3 IPSC. Made his day and mine.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. It just seemed that most products are geared toward open class. There certainly is more stuff geared towards production class, tac, etc….
I wasn’t intending to mean geared toward top shooters, just the open class in general.
Around 2014 I had a big SHC in Douglas, I gave away 7 rifles including the first rifle won by a Female shooter
After that match I took a ton of heat from the PRS guys especially the Okies, Reeves was a big driver of this hate, I gave a 58th place shooter a rifle and they were mad ! They bitched online for years about.
Problem was the 58th placed shooter was the High 308 and gave him a 6.5CM. To this day that shooter is still engaged and still uses that rifle. In fact if you are familiar with WYCO matches the top 308 in 58th place was Collin Fossen, if you know you know
It’s crazy how you can buck the masses and make it work.
Don’t be afraid to observe an issue and make a new call to fix it.
After that match I took a ton of heat from the PRS guys especially the Okies, Reeves was a big driver of this hate, I gave a 58th place shooter a rifle and they were mad ! They bitched online for years about.
Problem was the 58th placed shooter was the High 308 and gave him a 6.5CM. To this day that shooter is still engaged and still uses that rifle. In fact if you are familiar with WYCO matches the top 308 in 58th place was Collin Fossen, if you know you know
It’s crazy how you can buck the masses and make it work.
Don’t be afraid to observe an issue and make a new call to fix it.
Now that is simply OUTSTANDING thank you for sharing that as a previous MD that had to make you feel great to put the smiles on those faces especially the 58th shooter!!!!! Wow
There is no “training value” to playing baseball, football, soccer, basketball, or any of the myriad VERY popular and lucrative professional sports. The games are painfully contrived (fields and courts are all pretty much the same, the goals of the game are always the same, etc).
PRS is a game. Accept it for what it is. Practice PRS to be better at PRS. Shoot PRS to have fun and score well in PRS. Don’t expect all of the skills to carry on ver to other persuits.
Being good at swinging a bat doesn’t make you good at swinging a hammer. And, that’s ok.
PRS is a game. Accept it for what it is. Practice PRS to be better at PRS. Shoot PRS to have fun and score well in PRS. Don’t expect all of the skills to carry on ver to other persuits.
Being good at swinging a bat doesn’t make you good at swinging a hammer. And, that’s ok.
Yeah, PRS rifles are impractical for a lot things but, they're super practical & kind of necessary if you want to compete well in PRS &, the weight is legal so, better just sticking to the subject I think.
Ya’ll are still missing the point! It’s not about weight or caliber or any of the ansilary stuff it is about classification so the a shooter who is starting or has a little experience is not competing against the top shooters, as they are learning and getting better they are competing against others who are progressing with them. In IHMSA I was a top shooter in all disciplines but as I was getting there my scores were only gauged against others progressing at the same rate not against the top shooters. AND we could help those shooters progress with spotting help and verbal calls during course of fire. Even our best sniper’s have help on the glass.
Because snipers are a team. PRS is not a team sport. You seem to miss that point.
Oh no I don’t miss the point I am trying to use my knowledge of 37 years of watching IHMSA die as a sport to help save Prs from doing the same. I am going to be 69 in March I don’t move well or shoot well enough to be a threat to anyone’s score but I do see problems were people are soon going to start walking away. I think it is a great sport that needs a little tweaking and I think lowlight see’s the same.
Yes and no. These threads always turn into a shit show of gripes about PRS, from both shooters and detractors. You’re not going to keep this herd of cats on topic, because everyone has their own idea about what is wrong with PRS.
Is it a lack of classifications? Too many qualifiers? Too few qualifiers? “Impractical”gear? Barriers to entry? Boring stages? Apathetic leadership? Contrived stages? Targets are too big? Targets are too small? FUCKING PRIZE TABLES?
Yes. To all of it. It could be a lot better. But, also no, because matches are still selling out and shooters are voting with their wallets.
