I forgot my sarcasm emoji and myopically saw home defense vice property defense or neighborhood defense.Jesus Christ, what a dumb question. Tell me you've never used a good LPVO on 1X without telling me you've never used a good LPVO on 1X.
-Stan
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I forgot my sarcasm emoji and myopically saw home defense vice property defense or neighborhood defense.Jesus Christ, what a dumb question. Tell me you've never used a good LPVO on 1X without telling me you've never used a good LPVO on 1X.
2 very different weapons dude , i stretch the use of my CC to home defense ....none of them are for range or plinkingLove all the folks on their high horse who didn't read the OP that think it's an HD-only niche gun.
Title says HD and "Range".
OP notes:
"I want to have a useful home defense optic but be able to hit the range to run and gun and potentially run NV down the road....
it’s a buy once cry once deal."
lmao....yeah get that out of the nightstand quick
lmao....yeah get that out of the nightstand quick
i bet they are the rage on COD for youI see you're doubling down on dumb
Ever hear of quick access racks?
The discussion is about rifles for home defense. If you don't use one then feel free to fuck off.i bet they are the rage on COD for you
now who is the dumb one lmaoThe discussion is about rifles for home defense. If you don't use one then feel free to fuck off.
2 very different weapons dude , i stretch the use of my CC to home defense ....none of them are for range or plinking
you do not know how to defend anything but here we are ....another man bun ar cheerleaderI don't know who you are or what you're talking about. Carry on.
you do not know how to defend anything but here we are ....another man bun ar cheerleader
2 very different weapons dude , i stretch the use of my CC to home defense ....none of them are for range or plinking
So after many years, I finally paired my radian adac lower with a geissele 14.5 upper. Now I’m researching optics and mounts, mainly red dot/holos as I’m not too into lvpo or acogs. I want to have a useful home defense optic but be able to hit the range to run and gun and potentially run NV down the road. So I’m to the point it’s a buy once cry once deal. I’ve looked into the trijicon mro hd, holosun 503/515/530 and aems, multiple aimpoints, eotech and a few sig optics. As for mounts it seems like most run the scalarworks or unity mounts. Can anyone make other recommendations on some I’ve missed, add some photos of their similar setups or give me so opinions to narrow down my lists.
I quoted 308pirate second but I am going to respond to his thoughts first. I totally agree, nothing beats practice with a particular system. Most people would be surprised at how well they can hit targets with a dot out to 300 yards with great reliability.The problem with most people is they have this ridiculous fixation with the "best" rifle/optic/whatever for X task and pay no mind to skill.
A skilled shooter with a less than ideal weapon will fucking smash a poorly trained one with the "best" weapon.
I’d say the “unique characteristics” are of the same vein as the differences between a CC pistol and a USPSA carry optics legal pistol. Or between a hunting rifle and a prs rifle. Can I shoot an Sig 365 with an rmsc pattern optic in carry optics? Yes. Am I going to? No. Can I take my heavy prs rifle on an elk hunt? Yes. Do I have other rifles better set up for mountain hunting? Yes.Why? What is so magical and unique about a home defense rifle?
Have you ever timed up drills with pairs at 10, 15, and 20 yards with a rifle with a red dot and same rifle with an lpvo set st 1x? Because I have and found no difference in speed and accuracy.I’d say the “unique characteristics” are of the same vein as the differences between a CC pistol and a USPSA carry optics legal pistol. Or between a hunting rifle and a prs rifle. Can I shoot an Sig 365 with an rmsc pattern optic in carry optics? Yes. Am I going to? No. Can I take my heavy prs rifle on an elk hunt? Yes. Do I have other rifles better set up for mountain hunting? Yes.
My neighbors in this suburban neighborhood are significantly less than 100 yards away. And, I'm having a hard time justifying the need to shoot even that far in a HD scenario. I mean, I'm not defending their house. Right? Maybe if someone is standing in the street (our house is at the end of a cul de sac) and lobbing rounds into my front door, but that's a pretty low probability.
Hey, if your HD scenarios require covering a 300 yard perimeter, set your gun up for that. My HD scenario is more like someone is trying to kick in the front door. For that, I think a red dot is optimal.
But, I don't enjoy shooting red dot equipped rifles. My range rifles have magnified optics, anything from 1-6x to 5-25x. Unless it is a specific trip to train with the HD gun, it is not what I am reaching for one I head to the range.
The above notwithstanding, I am contemplating a 1-8x lpvo with a top mounted reflex sight that might fit the bill for a HD/range gun.
Operator error(And, FWIW, I also have a P4Xi 1-4 and have had one since they came out ~10 years ago, and it appears you're the dumb one as they don't really hold a candle to the speed and ease of use of a good red dot and you should know that.)
Any scope under 20X that you spend a lot of time behind should be that way. $2K into a rifle system is wasted without a similar investment in ammo drills, one shot at a time. There is no substitute for repetitions. Not cheap though.There's no FOV with red dots... you either have both eyes open, or you're using them wrong.
Things like "window size" and "wide FOV" are how marketing teams sell red dots to people who don't know how to use red dots.
Jesus save me!! I agree with the pirate. Fuck, who am I?Operator error
Really, I land on a red dot for one reason. It is always on.Have you ever timed up drills with pairs at 10, 15, and 20 yards with a rifle with a red dot and same rifle with an lpvo set st 1x? Because I have and found no difference in speed and accuracy.
Have you ever mock cleared rooms and hallways in your house with one rifle and the two different sight systems? I have and found none easier than the other.
Because of that I use an lpvo for everything i need a carbine for.
I didn't read about it. I didn't listen to social media. I saw for myself.
I ask again, what mission requirements say that an rdo is necessary or better for in home defense?
Your problem there is with a poorly designed ACSS reticle on that LPVO. If that LPVO had cross hairs that extend towards the edge of the view, you’d know exactly where you were aiming.Really, I land on a red dot for one reason. It is always on.
Below are three pictures taken inside my home. I hung a black dress shirt in my closet, with the light off. The room adjacent to the closet (master bath) has its lights on. The bedroom is illuminated by a lamp. The “shot” is from the master bedroom, through the bathroom, into the closet.
I pulled 2 rifles for these pics. One has a LPVO; the other wears a red dot. The LPVO was off when it came out of the safe. The red dot was on.
LPVO, illumination off.
View attachment 8506572
LPVO, illumination on.
View attachment 8506592
Red dot, always on.
View attachment 8506575
The closet is certainly sufficiently well lit to make a target ID, but without illumination the reticle is missing in action. The LPVO has a relatively short battery life and is stored off. The red dot has a ludicrously long battery life and is stored on.
Yes, it is only one more step, but it is one more step. And, this optic only requires a single click on the illum knob- in either direction- to be bright enough for indoors. But, it is not ready to go when I pick it up.
From a more philosophical standpoint, I think of a HD gun as an “in case of emergency, break glass” kind of item. I don’t take my home fire extinguisher on camping trips.
I take my cc pistol to the range, but I didn’t buy my cc pistol to shoot at the range.
My range bag doesn’t double as my airline carry on.
I have a rifle that only really comes out when I go hunting in the mountains.
Etc.
And, I think that many (myself included) are prone to tune a “range carbine” to the ragged edge of reliability, where a HD gun may be better served with more margin for reliability.
As I wrote in my previous post. I don’t really enjoy red dots. I recently got my first set of prescription glasses . As one with astigmatism, I was somewhat excited to look through a red dot (with the astigmatism correction) and see the crisp red orb that everyone else sees. Much to my chagrin, they are either unchanged or in one case worse. FML. Anyway, when “they” come up with an LPVO with red dot battery life, I’ll be in line. Until then, I’ll just argue minutia on the internet.
Maybe buy an LPVO that has a reticle that doesn't need illumination to work but also has a nuclear bright red dot when you want one.Really, I land on a red dot for one reason. It is always on.
Below are three pictures taken inside my home. I hung a black dress shirt in my closet, with the light off. The room adjacent to the closet (master bath) has its lights on. The bedroom is illuminated by a lamp. The “shot” is from the master bedroom, through the bathroom, into the closet.
I pulled 2 rifles for these pics. One has a LPVO; the other wears a red dot. The LPVO was off when it came out of the safe. The red dot was on.
LPVO, illumination off.
View attachment 8506572
LPVO, illumination on.
View attachment 8506592
Red dot, always on.
View attachment 8506575
The closet is certainly sufficiently well lit to make a target ID, but without illumination the reticle is missing in action. The LPVO has a relatively short battery life and is stored off. The red dot has a ludicrously long battery life and is stored on.
Yes, it is only one more step, but it is one more step. And, this optic only requires a single click on the illum knob- in either direction- to be bright enough for indoors. But, it is not ready to go when I pick it up.
From a more philosophical standpoint, I think of a HD gun as an “in case of emergency, break glass” kind of item. I don’t take my home fire extinguisher on camping trips.
I take my cc pistol to the range, but I didn’t buy my cc pistol to shoot at the range.
My range bag doesn’t double as my airline carry on.
I have a rifle that only really comes out when I go hunting in the mountains.
Etc.
And, I think that many (myself included) are prone to tune a “range carbine” to the ragged edge of reliability, where a HD gun may be better served with more margin for reliability.
As I wrote in my previous post. I don’t really enjoy red dots. I recently got my first set of prescription glasses . As one with astigmatism, I was somewhat excited to look through a red dot (with the astigmatism correction) and see the crisp red orb that everyone else sees. Much to my chagrin, they are either unchanged or in one case worse. FML. Anyway, when “they” come up with an LPVO with red dot battery life, I’ll be in line. Until then, I’ll just argue minutia on the internet.
damn are you living in Lebanon or south side Shitcago?? sheesh, rack right next to your bed I suppose?I see you're doubling down on dumb
Ever hear of quick access racks?
Don't need to justify anything I do to anyone.damn are you living in Lebanon or south side Shitcago?? sheesh, rack right next to your bed I suppose?
You realize that things like this exist, right?damn are you living in Lebanon or south side Shitcago?? sheesh, rack right next to your bed I suppose?
Sorry, it sometimes takes me a long time to get back to the forum replies. It really depends on your use case. Frankly, anything inside 3-400 yards can be done with a RDS and magnifier, but it's not comfortable after about 100 yards. Inside 100 yards the RDS is king.Yeah, I have been narrowing down my list and got to the T2, eotech and sig 4tpro. I dream of running nv one day but who knows if it’ll happen. I built a long range gun, spent crazy amounts of cash and topped it with a zco all to shoot maybe 20 rounds. A few buddies actually recommended checking the lpvo route as they said it’s comparable to running a red dot/holo once you get use to it. Then I started pricing out lvpo setups and compare it to the t2 with a magnifier and don’t know which way to roll. As for mounts I like the unity idea with built ins but I like my optics lower so I’m unsure how I’d like it in the end.
How big is your back yard? I consider home defense on my property, which is not very big compared to many here. 3 acres, so I'm covered with an 11.5" 5.56, but magnification is nice for identification. So 3X and a good light.. But the nice thing about a LPVO is that it is by definition variable.How much magnification do you need for home defense?
Why? Old FUDFor home defense, you should be using a shotgun, IMO. No optics required.
I can't remember if it was in a Paul Harrell video or a James Reeves video but one of them mentioned that unfortunately the case studies also show that it's easier for the defense in court if you used a shotgun or lever action. That's the reality we live in.For home defense, you should be using a shotgun, IMO. No optics required.
Aimpoint PRO or Comp M5.
Look at Aimpoint Duty if buying new. They make nice mounts for the duty now too. Really a replacement for the PRO. $ to $ better. Otherwise Comp M5. Don't get me wrong the PRO is a good optic, I have one, but it has some dimensional and weight challenges, plus it uses that weird 1/3N battery.
But is it the best weapon? Also, shooting someone with 00 buck pretty much says you intend to kill. Sign of the times. Check your local listings for what a court/DA might do...I can't remember if it was in a Paul Harrell video or a James Reeves video but one of them mentioned that unfortunately the case studies also show that it's easier for the defense in court if you used a shotgun or lever action. That's the reality we live in.
Best weapon gets thrown around a lot. The best weapon depends entirely on your situation. In my situation 5.56 is a complete non-starter. Far too much penetration with how close neighbors are.But is it the best weapon? Also, shooting someone with 00 buck pretty much says you intend to kill. Sign of the times. Check your local listings for what a court/DA might do...
I forgot to mention that Geissele is close to releasing a 10" 300 blackout upper. 300 blackout is nice if you intend to suppress it, otherwise a less expensive to shoot 5.56 is the way to go for home defense IMHO.I haven’t looked through a lpvo to see but I’m unsure how it would be for me. I’m to the point I’m thinking I nice 300blk out or a 8.6 sbr may be a better home defense setup. Then just build this 14.5 for a nice run and gun setup and some occasional nv.
Yes. I was talking about defending the home structure, not the entire property. Over-penetration is a consideration if you have close neighbors. I believe shooting someone with anything, except non-lethal, can be deemed "intent to kill." I have #4, 00 and slugs loaded in mine.Best weapon gets thrown around a lot. The best weapon depends entirely on your situation. In my situation 5.56 is a complete non-starter. Far too much penetration with how close neighbors are.
People love to talk about guns and kit and don't talk about the stuff that's vastly more important. Situation. Accessibility. Training. Local laws. Local LE behavior. Environment. Threat model. Etc
I can't remember the when, but a few years ago Yavapai Sheriff's Office did a penetration test article for the NTOA. They tested 9mm and 40cal from a handgun and a 5.56 with mid to lightweight expanding bullets. I think maybe a couple of other guns and calibers.Best weapon gets thrown around a lot. The best weapon depends entirely on your situation. In my situation 5.56 is a complete non-starter. Far too much penetration with how close neighbors are.
@pewpew300WM
I'll play...
Whatever you choose, make sure to budget for a quality weapon mounted light.
In any HD scenario, that is non-negotiable.
You don't want to dirtnap some 13yr old sneaking in to play video games with your kid, shoot your spouse that is on Ambien or similar.
PID what you are connecting to "that sound I heard".
Heck, a high lumen output deployed from cover can even get someone off their game enough to get them on the ground without firing a shot (which is the best scenario).
A good light that is mounted as conformal as possible will not be in the way for your range or comp shooting.
If you go with a RDS and magnifier, DO NOT get a mount that attempts to handle both. Get a solid and separate swing away mount for your magnifier.
Whatever you get, dryfire and shoot the piss out of it. Every time you pick it up and manipulate it, you are programming your brain which is what will carry you through under stress.
“So tell me Mr.Jones, the man you killed was on the edge of your three acre property, how again was he posing a threat to your life?”People love to talk about guns and kit and don't talk about the stuff that's vastly more important. Situation. Accessibility. Training. Local laws. Local LE behavior. Environment. Threat model. Etc
“When I stepped onto the porch, he fired a gun at me- Photos of the bullet strikes have already been presented as evidence- I returned fire…”“So tell me Mr.Jones, the man you killed was on the edge of your three acre property, how again was he posing a threat to your life?”
-A Prosecutor Someday
“Stepped onto the porch. Yes. So you voluntarily left the safety of your home to go hunting a fellow human. Noted. The prosecution rests.”“When I stepped onto the porch, he fired a gun at me- Photos of the bullet strikes have already been presented as evidence- I returned fire…”
I can't remember the when, but a few years ago Yavapai Sheriff's Office did a penetration test article for the NTOA. They tested 9mm and 40cal from a handgun and a 5.56 with mid to lightweight expanding bullets. I think maybe a couple of other guns and calibers.
The jest of it was that the 5.56 with 40 to 50gr expanding bullets had the LEAST penetration of all tested. Test was through typical interior wall: Sheetrock, insulation and sheetrock again on framed 2x4.
Silly ass. It's a spider man thong and you can only see it under NODS.Does the light cast strange shadows with your multi cam thong?