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Optics for Home Defense and Range
- Thread starter pewpew300WM
- Start date
I forgot my sarcasm emoji and myopically saw home defense vice property defense or neighborhood defense.
-Stan
2 very different weapons dude , i stretch the use of my CC to home defense ....none of them are for range or plinking
The problem with most people is they have this ridiculous fixation with the "best" rifle/optic/whatever for X task and pay no mind to skill.
A skilled shooter with a less than ideal weapon will fucking smash a poorly trained one with the "best" weapon.
A skilled shooter with a less than ideal weapon will fucking smash a poorly trained one with the "best" weapon.
The discussion is about rifles for home defense. If you don't use one then feel free to fuck off.
you do not know how to defend anything but here we are ....another man bun ar cheerleader
I quoted 308pirate second but I am going to respond to his thoughts first. I totally agree, nothing beats practice with a particular system. Most people would be surprised at how well they can hit targets with a dot out to 300 yards with great reliability.
Now to the OPs post, my favorite current rifle is actually very similar to yours. It is the Geissele URG-I 14.5" with an LMT ambi lower. It is not my primary self defense rifle but it easily could be. I actually use it to shoot feral pigs, some predators, so a lot of shooting at night with a thermal. I have had two optic setups that work really well. The first is the rifle with the led ACOG (TA51 BDC crosshair reticle) with a RCR top mounted. The second configuration is a Nightforce ATACR 1-8 also top mounted with a Trijicon RCR. I use an IRAY mini rico thermal mounted in front of the day optic for night hunting. If you practice with either setup, it should work just fine for up close in personal as the RCR will be your primary aiming optic. When you get past 100 yards, looking through the ACOG or scope makes it pretty easy.
I’d say the “unique characteristics” are of the same vein as the differences between a CC pistol and a USPSA carry optics legal pistol. Or between a hunting rifle and a prs rifle. Can I shoot an Sig 365 with an rmsc pattern optic in carry optics? Yes. Am I going to? No. Can I take my heavy prs rifle on an elk hunt? Yes. Do I have other rifles better set up for mountain hunting? Yes.
My neighbors in this suburban neighborhood are significantly less than 100 yards away. And, I'm having a hard time justifying the need to shoot even that far in a HD scenario. I mean, I'm not defending their house. Right? Maybe if someone is standing in the street (our house is at the end of a cul de sac) and lobbing rounds into my front door, but that's a pretty low probability.
Hey, if your HD scenarios require covering a 300 yard perimeter, set your gun up for that. My HD scenario is more like someone is trying to kick in the front door. For that, I think a red dot is optimal.
But, I don't enjoy shooting red dot equipped rifles. My range rifles have magnified optics, anything from 1-6x to 5-25x. Unless it is a specific trip to train with the HD gun, it is not what I am reaching for one I head to the range.
The above notwithstanding, I am contemplating a 1-8x lpvo with a top mounted reflex sight that might fit the bill for a HD/range gun.
Have you ever timed up drills with pairs at 10, 15, and 20 yards with a rifle with a red dot and same rifle with an lpvo set st 1x? Because I have and found no difference in speed and accuracy.
Have you ever mock cleared rooms and hallways in your house with one rifle and the two different sight systems? I have and found none easier than the other.
Because of that I use an lpvo for everything i need a carbine for.
I didn't read about it. I didn't listen to social media. I saw for myself.
I ask again, what mission requirements say that an rdo is necessary or better for in home defense?
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Sometimes I wonder about your mental health buddy. You don't seem to be a very happy person and hurt people, hurt people.
(And, FWIW, I also have a P4Xi 1-4 and have had one since they came out ~10 years ago, and it appears you're the dumb one as they don't really hold a candle to the speed and ease of use of a good red dot and you should know that.)
Namaste.
Aimpoint! if you are running it for home defense. IMO you want to leave the optic on so if you have to use it you don't have to worry about it. I have one on my home defense rifle and my truck gun.. leave the optic on and change the battery once a year. and I have a 3x on a qd mount I can put behind them if and when I want .
Any scope under 20X that you spend a lot of time behind should be that way. $2K into a rifle system is wasted without a similar investment in ammo drills, one shot at a time. There is no substitute for repetitions. Not cheap though.
Really, I land on a red dot for one reason. It is always on.
Below are three pictures taken inside my home. I hung a black dress shirt in my closet, with the light off. The room adjacent to the closet (master bath) has its lights on. The bedroom is illuminated by a lamp. The “shot” is from the master bedroom, through the bathroom, into the closet.
I pulled 2 rifles for these pics. One has a LPVO; the other wears a red dot. The LPVO was off when it came out of the safe. The red dot was on.
LPVO, illumination off.
LPVO, illumination on.
Red dot, always on.
The closet is certainly sufficiently well lit to make a target ID, but without illumination the reticle is missing in action. The LPVO has a relatively short battery life and is stored off. The red dot has a ludicrously long battery life and is stored on.
Yes, it is only one more step, but it is one more step. And, this optic only requires a single click on the illum knob- in either direction- to be bright enough for indoors. But, it is not ready to go when I pick it up.
From a more philosophical standpoint, I think of a HD gun as an “in case of emergency, break glass” kind of item. I don’t take my home fire extinguisher on camping trips.
I take my cc pistol to the range, but I didn’t buy my cc pistol to shoot at the range.
My range bag doesn’t double as my airline carry on.
I have a rifle that only really comes out when I go hunting in the mountains.
Etc.
And, I think that many (myself included) are prone to tune a “range carbine” to the ragged edge of reliability, where a HD gun may be better served with more margin for reliability.
As I wrote in my previous post. I don’t really enjoy red dots. I recently got my first set of prescription glasses . As one with astigmatism, I was somewhat excited to look through a red dot (with the astigmatism correction) and see the crisp red orb that everyone else sees. Much to my chagrin, they are either unchanged or in one case worse. FML. Anyway, when “they” come up with an LPVO with red dot battery life, I’ll be in line. Until then, I’ll just argue minutia on the internet.
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Your problem there is with a poorly designed ACSS reticle on that LPVO. If that LPVO had cross hairs that extend towards the edge of the view, you’d know exactly where you were aiming.Really, I land on a red dot for one reason. It is always on.
Below are three pictures taken inside my home. I hung a black dress shirt in my closet, with the light off. The room adjacent to the closet (master bath) has its lights on. The bedroom is illuminated by a lamp. The “shot” is from the master bedroom, through the bathroom, into the closet.
I pulled 2 rifles for these pics. One has a LPVO; the other wears a red dot. The LPVO was off when it came out of the safe. The red dot was on.
LPVO, illumination off.
View attachment 8506572
LPVO, illumination on.
View attachment 8506592
Red dot, always on.
View attachment 8506575
The closet is certainly sufficiently well lit to make a target ID, but without illumination the reticle is missing in action. The LPVO has a relatively short battery life and is stored off. The red dot has a ludicrously long battery life and is stored on.
Yes, it is only one more step, but it is one more step. And, this optic only requires a single click on the illum knob- in either direction- to be bright enough for indoors. But, it is not ready to go when I pick it up.
From a more philosophical standpoint, I think of a HD gun as an “in case of emergency, break glass” kind of item. I don’t take my home fire extinguisher on camping trips.
I take my cc pistol to the range, but I didn’t buy my cc pistol to shoot at the range.
My range bag doesn’t double as my airline carry on.
I have a rifle that only really comes out when I go hunting in the mountains.
Etc.
And, I think that many (myself included) are prone to tune a “range carbine” to the ragged edge of reliability, where a HD gun may be better served with more margin for reliability.
As I wrote in my previous post. I don’t really enjoy red dots. I recently got my first set of prescription glasses . As one with astigmatism, I was somewhat excited to look through a red dot (with the astigmatism correction) and see the crisp red orb that everyone else sees. Much to my chagrin, they are either unchanged or in one case worse. FML. Anyway, when “they” come up with an LPVO with red dot battery life, I’ll be in line. Until then, I’ll just argue minutia on the internet.
As for battery life, the Elcan spectre does have more than two months of constant on battery life set on a rather bright setting. It can get truly red dot right. There are also options like the Primary Arms Nova that will give you red dot brightness, a usable reticle with full length crosshairs, and a shake awake/“auto-live” option to extend battery life.
Can’t blame anybody wanting a red dot for an HD rifle though, for many of the reasons that have been listed. I just prefer to have a setup I can take with me on the go and have that greater capability.
Edit: typo
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Maybe buy an LPVO that has a reticle that doesn't need illumination to work but also has a nuclear bright red dot when you want one.Really, I land on a red dot for one reason. It is always on.
Below are three pictures taken inside my home. I hung a black dress shirt in my closet, with the light off. The room adjacent to the closet (master bath) has its lights on. The bedroom is illuminated by a lamp. The “shot” is from the master bedroom, through the bathroom, into the closet.
I pulled 2 rifles for these pics. One has a LPVO; the other wears a red dot. The LPVO was off when it came out of the safe. The red dot was on.
LPVO, illumination off.
View attachment 8506572
LPVO, illumination on.
View attachment 8506592
Red dot, always on.
View attachment 8506575
The closet is certainly sufficiently well lit to make a target ID, but without illumination the reticle is missing in action. The LPVO has a relatively short battery life and is stored off. The red dot has a ludicrously long battery life and is stored on.
Yes, it is only one more step, but it is one more step. And, this optic only requires a single click on the illum knob- in either direction- to be bright enough for indoors. But, it is not ready to go when I pick it up.
From a more philosophical standpoint, I think of a HD gun as an “in case of emergency, break glass” kind of item. I don’t take my home fire extinguisher on camping trips.
I take my cc pistol to the range, but I didn’t buy my cc pistol to shoot at the range.
My range bag doesn’t double as my airline carry on.
I have a rifle that only really comes out when I go hunting in the mountains.
Etc.
And, I think that many (myself included) are prone to tune a “range carbine” to the ragged edge of reliability, where a HD gun may be better served with more margin for reliability.
As I wrote in my previous post. I don’t really enjoy red dots. I recently got my first set of prescription glasses . As one with astigmatism, I was somewhat excited to look through a red dot (with the astigmatism correction) and see the crisp red orb that everyone else sees. Much to my chagrin, they are either unchanged or in one case worse. FML. Anyway, when “they” come up with an LPVO with red dot battery life, I’ll be in line. Until then, I’ll just argue minutia on the internet.
Steiner makes one.....
My personal situation can cover everything from your standard home invasion, to being able to see out to about 400 yards in several directions. My nearest neighbor is a half mile away through thick timber.
Since I expect a significantly lesser chance of someone attacking me from the tree line at 400 yards...and my response window time to someone attacking me from that distance is significantly greater... I'm set up with the EOTech on an AR for the much more likely 0 - 50 yards. That covers my house and shop. Anything else really doesn't cover a home defense scenario anyway.
My doors have reinforced strike plates, and my windows have the 3M film. Those will NOT prevent a breech into your home. However, they will give me that extra 20 seconds to figure myself out in the middle of the night and touch the power button on my EOTech. Again, that reticle matches my thermal reticle and I have a thousand hours and a thousand critter kills worth of experience with that reticle in the dark. It would take a lot of practice at this point to switch to something else, and I personally feel it is not needed (for me).
I have a safe with loaded firearms that I use from time to time around the ranch (pest control, hunting etc...). One of those loaded rifles is the same make/model as my HD rifle, but has a LPVO on it. I call it the "home offense" rifle.
^ LPVOs have got to the point where speed proficiency with one is on par to proficiency with a dot. However, the eyebox of that holographic is undefeated when you are trying to manipulate yourself around an object, and your rifle around you at the same time and fire.
Just my situation and opinion, which is worth what you paid for it.
Since I expect a significantly lesser chance of someone attacking me from the tree line at 400 yards...and my response window time to someone attacking me from that distance is significantly greater... I'm set up with the EOTech on an AR for the much more likely 0 - 50 yards. That covers my house and shop. Anything else really doesn't cover a home defense scenario anyway.
My doors have reinforced strike plates, and my windows have the 3M film. Those will NOT prevent a breech into your home. However, they will give me that extra 20 seconds to figure myself out in the middle of the night and touch the power button on my EOTech. Again, that reticle matches my thermal reticle and I have a thousand hours and a thousand critter kills worth of experience with that reticle in the dark. It would take a lot of practice at this point to switch to something else, and I personally feel it is not needed (for me).
I have a safe with loaded firearms that I use from time to time around the ranch (pest control, hunting etc...). One of those loaded rifles is the same make/model as my HD rifle, but has a LPVO on it. I call it the "home offense" rifle.
^ LPVOs have got to the point where speed proficiency with one is on par to proficiency with a dot. However, the eyebox of that holographic is undefeated when you are trying to manipulate yourself around an object, and your rifle around you at the same time and fire.
Just my situation and opinion, which is worth what you paid for it.
damn are you living in Lebanon or south side Shitcago?? sheesh, rack right next to your bed I suppose?
You realize that things like this exist, right?
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And are you really trying to mock people for wanting to use an effective defensive tool? We all know a rifle round is much more effective in terminal performance than handgun rounds.
In all honesty pick whatever you justify to yourself!!!! Your narrowing and disregarding it seems because of how you view it. That's fine as long as you realize it. In TRUTH inside a house or within any reasonable distance a irons, dot, lvpo or naked barrel will work if you train with it. Have you ever had to point a gun at or shoot someone? All the other crap goes away. You obviously know a little about the hardware, ok great. Have you verified what does and doesn't work vs building what u think tactical should be for a finite window?
Not trying to be mean or shitty, trying to look at it as fact and experience.
Not trying to be mean or shitty, trying to look at it as fact and experience.
Sorry, it sometimes takes me a long time to get back to the forum replies. It really depends on your use case. Frankly, anything inside 3-400 yards can be done with a RDS and magnifier, but it's not comfortable after about 100 yards. Inside 100 yards the RDS is king.
Simple LPVO will do everything you want for general purpose and if you need a red dot for close up, add one. Everyone is different however. Competition and hunting shooters have very specialized needs. Joe's like me want general purpose rifles, or somewhat specialized like a shorter home defense weapon for in and outdoors, and maybe a longer range setup for fun and hunting.
Like I said, the Trijicon Credo 2nd focal plane 1-6 with Red BDC (.223/5.56) is what I like for simple General Purpose AR. It's like $835 and rugged enough for most. Expensive buy once cry once stuff starts there and goes up. Next big jump is to around $1500.
I have some older scopes that I still love, like the Trijicon Accupoint 1-4 with the red triangle post, excellent for fast shooting at short ranges. Not sure this is the way to go now.
Hunting is quite different of course. I think traditional hunting scopes make total sense, and there are tons of those on the market. I like lightweight and and big objective lenses to egt the light in for early or late hunting. Leupold make some excellent scopes in the VX lines. Hunting scopes are no longer a priority for me, other than the Leupold VX3 2.5-8 for my new TacSol .22 I got an excellent deal on. 11.5 oz 2.5-8! And I do have an old Leupold Ultra-Lite 2-7X for another .22 at 9.5 OZ.
I looked hard at the Trijicon Huron and Credo lines too.
My older hunting rifles from the 70's have really ancient optics, but I don't hunt game any longer so I cannot give much feedback on that.
@pewpew300WM
I'll play...
Whatever you choose, make sure to budget for a quality weapon mounted light.
In any HD scenario, that is non-negotiable.
You don't want to dirtnap some 13yr old sneaking in to play video games with your kid, shoot your spouse that is on Ambien or similar.
PID what you are connecting to "that sound I heard".
Heck, a high lumen output deployed from cover can even get someone off their game enough to get them on the ground without firing a shot (which is the best scenario).
A good light that is mounted as conformal as possible will not be in the way for your range or comp shooting.
If you go with a RDS and magnifier, DO NOT get a mount that attempts to handle both. Get a solid and separate swing away mount for your magnifier.
Whatever you get, dryfire and shoot the piss out of it. Every time you pick it up and manipulate it, you are programming your brain which is what will carry you through under stress.
I'll play...
Whatever you choose, make sure to budget for a quality weapon mounted light.
In any HD scenario, that is non-negotiable.
You don't want to dirtnap some 13yr old sneaking in to play video games with your kid, shoot your spouse that is on Ambien or similar.
PID what you are connecting to "that sound I heard".
Heck, a high lumen output deployed from cover can even get someone off their game enough to get them on the ground without firing a shot (which is the best scenario).
A good light that is mounted as conformal as possible will not be in the way for your range or comp shooting.
If you go with a RDS and magnifier, DO NOT get a mount that attempts to handle both. Get a solid and separate swing away mount for your magnifier.
Whatever you get, dryfire and shoot the piss out of it. Every time you pick it up and manipulate it, you are programming your brain which is what will carry you through under stress.
For home defense, you should be using a shotgun, IMO. No optics required.
So you know I'm not pulling your collective legs, I am including a picture of some recent builds with optics I am enjoying. Note, that I have not put these through hard use, but I feel very confident in these optics setups.
Top, MCX with T2 on Unity mount and Scalar Works front iron. Aimpoint magnifier in Unity mount (I have not yet put any rounds on the magnifier. RC2 supressor (love it) if interested in my thoughts.
Geissele Super Duty 14.5" with ATACR 1-8 DMX reticle with Unity mount I believe (not sure I'm using this mount long term), heart this rifle, probably will be my GoTo for the coming end of civilization LOL. Troy irons. I've got a Griffin Explorr 224 with a B+T SF hub adapter, no miles on the supressor yet.
11.5" Super Duty with Scalar Works 1.93" and T2, Surefire light in the grass. Our bump in the night gun, RC3 supressor still to be fully tested. I have a set of Scalar Works 1.93" BUIS to install and zero. I have a magnifier for this, but I'm not sure I will install it for everyday use.
Sig Rattler 300 Blackout, going back to Sig due to light primer strikes. Truck Gun LOL (no one would leave this in their truck). Set up with the pictured EXPS two dot reticle on Unity Riser. I just put the 5X magnifier on there for the photo as a joke (EOTech 5X on Unity mount). Seems to be a pretty good 5X magnifier, but haven't had enough time on it. SF SOCOM 300 SPS supressor, unfired as of today.
Bottom; One of the Commiefornia guns I built with Trijicon Credo 1-6 Second Focal Plane w/BDC reticle. I have 2000+ rounds through this, so it did get some use. I do like this scope for it's clarity, utility and reasonable cost. I give it a thumbs up.
Top, MCX with T2 on Unity mount and Scalar Works front iron. Aimpoint magnifier in Unity mount (I have not yet put any rounds on the magnifier. RC2 supressor (love it) if interested in my thoughts.
Geissele Super Duty 14.5" with ATACR 1-8 DMX reticle with Unity mount I believe (not sure I'm using this mount long term), heart this rifle, probably will be my GoTo for the coming end of civilization LOL. Troy irons. I've got a Griffin Explorr 224 with a B+T SF hub adapter, no miles on the supressor yet.
11.5" Super Duty with Scalar Works 1.93" and T2, Surefire light in the grass. Our bump in the night gun, RC3 supressor still to be fully tested. I have a set of Scalar Works 1.93" BUIS to install and zero. I have a magnifier for this, but I'm not sure I will install it for everyday use.
Sig Rattler 300 Blackout, going back to Sig due to light primer strikes. Truck Gun LOL (no one would leave this in their truck). Set up with the pictured EXPS two dot reticle on Unity Riser. I just put the 5X magnifier on there for the photo as a joke (EOTech 5X on Unity mount). Seems to be a pretty good 5X magnifier, but haven't had enough time on it. SF SOCOM 300 SPS supressor, unfired as of today.
Bottom; One of the Commiefornia guns I built with Trijicon Credo 1-6 Second Focal Plane w/BDC reticle. I have 2000+ rounds through this, so it did get some use. I do like this scope for it's clarity, utility and reasonable cost. I give it a thumbs up.
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How big is your back yard? I consider home defense on my property, which is not very big compared to many here. 3 acres, so I'm covered with an 11.5" 5.56, but magnification is nice for identification. So 3X and a good light.. But the nice thing about a LPVO is that it is by definition variable.
A red dot is perfect in your standard suburban home. But if you like to shoot father and/or anticipate civil unrest, maybe a general purpose setup with a LPVO is not a bad choice.
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I can't remember if it was in a Paul Harrell video or a James Reeves video but one of them mentioned that unfortunately the case studies also show that it's easier for the defense in court if you used a shotgun or lever action. That's the reality we live in.
Best weapon gets thrown around a lot. The best weapon depends entirely on your situation. In my situation 5.56 is a complete non-starter. Far too much penetration with how close neighbors are.
People love to talk about guns and kit and don't talk about the stuff that's vastly more important. Situation. Accessibility. Training. Local laws. Local LE behavior. Environment. Threat model. Etc
I forgot to mention that Geissele is close to releasing a 10" 300 blackout upper. 300 blackout is nice if you intend to suppress it, otherwise a less expensive to shoot 5.56 is the way to go for home defense IMHO.
8.6 is silly at this point, even if suppressed, sorry. Unless you can just throw money at guns and random ammo, and even then it's kinda goofy. The use case is way out there...
Yes. I was talking about defending the home structure, not the entire property. Over-penetration is a consideration if you have close neighbors. I believe shooting someone with anything, except non-lethal, can be deemed "intent to kill." I have #4, 00 and slugs loaded in mine.
I can't remember the when, but a few years ago Yavapai Sheriff's Office did a penetration test article for the NTOA. They tested 9mm and 40cal from a handgun and a 5.56 with mid to lightweight expanding bullets. I think maybe a couple of other guns and calibers.
The jest of it was that the 5.56 with 40 to 50gr expanding bullets had the LEAST penetration of all tested. Test was through typical interior wall: Sheetrock, insulation and sheetrock again on framed 2x4.
Basically the high speed, lightly constructed bullets would start to expand and loose energy on the first layer and quickly decelerate/break up/loose energy on subsequent layers. Expanding bullets at speed actually penetrate less than everything else. This rule also applies on terminal performance on tissue.
9 and 40 handgun rounds typically would not expand on light/thin layers and just go thunking through layers until velocity is gone.
I'm just throwing this out for you to consider and probably do your own testing.
^^^^^^Agree Terry, the "what's the best" question can never be solved as it's opinion based and everyone knows about opinions.
Best oil, best bullet, best pistol/rifle/SG ad nauseum. Use what serves you best in your situation it's not brain surgery.........
FWIW I use a silenced 9mm PCC and a 12ga w/4buck for HD
Best oil, best bullet, best pistol/rifle/SG ad nauseum. Use what serves you best in your situation it's not brain surgery.........
FWIW I use a silenced 9mm PCC and a 12ga w/4buck for HD
Does the light cast strange shadows with your multi cam thong?
“So tell me Mr.Jones, the man you killed was on the edge of your three acre property, how again was he posing a threat to your life?”
-A Prosecutor Someday
“Stepped onto the porch. Yes. So you voluntarily left the safety of your home to go hunting a fellow human. Noted. The prosecution rests.”
-Stan
I still can't believe in this day and age, how many people still believe "mo velocity = mo penetration" is law. Expansion threshold? Accelerated expansion/destruction...?
Though, I must say Terry, I'm glad you at least denote the 5.56 bullets being lighter than pretty much ANY standard defensive load....save for maybe the TSX 50gr (which I doubt is pulling up short on penetration) as there are way too many who have whittled this stuff down to: .223 penetrates less than 9mm in structures.
It's almost as if one should know what their fucking bullet was designed to do...how novel!
