Can a tuner improve these sub MOA groups?

VFL1911 · Oct 3, 2024

Is a lot tested group like this as good as it gets or would throwing on a tuner tighten it up even more? Been debating testing a Harrels on this, but not sure if it’s worth the time and money or just to continue to extensively lot test until I get these results.

5 shot group at 50 yards grouping .257 and 10 shot group at 100 yards grouping .635

CZ 457 with 21 inch lilja in MDT ACC Premier Gen 2.

Primarily shoot NRL/PRS. Wasn’t sure if the tuner would primarily address tightening up more of those “pretty good” lots but be marginal (if at all) on improving lots like this.

VFL1911 · Oct 3, 2024

PS - forgot to mention these were with Lapua Long Range

oldrifleman · Oct 3, 2024

Not sure you would see much improvement on the top and maybe a bit on the bottom, combined not sure it would do much. Tuners generally work to reduce the vertical stringing, not so much to reduce the horizontal spread. Question do you plan to shoot at beyond 100yrds? If not I am not sure LR is the right choice. It and its brother SLR come into their own at 100 and beyond. At 50 or 100 I would try centerX.

jetjock07 · Oct 3, 2024

The accuracy shown is good enough for PRS/NRL. If you want to tighten them up some more then I would say yes to a tuner. Have you tried accuracy out at 200 or 300 yet? Is your barrel a straight or a tapered barrel??

I have a 20in 1.2” straight on my rimx and decided to throw a tuner on and the groups shrunk some. But then again a a short straight barrel isn’t going to have the same effect of a tuner as a thinner barrel or tapered.

VFL1911 · Oct 3, 2024

oldrifleman said:
Not sure you would see much improvement on the top and maybe a bit on the bottom, combined not sure it would do much. Tuners generally work to reduce the vertical stringing, not so much to reduce the horizontal spread. Question do you plan to shoot at beyond 100yrds? If not I am not sure LR is the right choice. It and its brother SLR come into their own at 100 and beyond. At 50 or 100 I would try centerX.

Thanks for the feedback. And Yes I shoot NRL & PRS matches, so out to 300 isn’t out of the ordinary on a monthly basis.

VFL1911 · Oct 3, 2024

jetjock07 said:
The accuracy shown is good enough for PRS/NRL. If you want to tighten them up some more then I would say yes to a tuner. Have you tried accuracy out at 200 or 300 yet? Is your barrel a straight or a tapered barrel??

I have a 20in 1.2” straight on my rimx and decided to throw a tuner on and the groups shrunk some. But then again a a short straight barrel isn’t going to have the same effect of a tuner as a thinner barrel or tapered.

It’s a straight contour

oldrifleman · Oct 3, 2024

VFL1911 said:
Thanks for the feedback. And Yes I shoot NRL & PRS matches, so out to 300 isn’t out of the ordinary on a monthly basis.

Then it would depend on what you see at 100. If you see any real vertical as a pattern I would definitely go for it.

Csafisher · Oct 3, 2024

Dang look at all the barrel harmonics…… oh wait. Turn that tooner though

mark5pt56 · Oct 4, 2024

If my rifle was shooting that well without one, I wouldn't waste resources and time. To see actual improvement, you would need multiple range sessions under ideal conditions to get enough data to say otherwise.
My .02

LR1845 · Oct 4, 2024

I have a DI precision Vudoo with a 1.25" 13T Muller works barrel with a tuner on it...I had Tom install the tuner for looks....it serves no other purpose. I have turned it to the max adjustment both ways 1 full rev at a time and shot 5 shot groups with each rev and it did not change anything, not group size, or POI. I am no scientist but I doubt a 22 creates enough harmonics or barrel movement with a 1.20-1.25" barrel for a tuner to much, if anything.

Like @mark5pt56 said that rifle shoots damn good I'd leave it alone, more often than not you start messing with a good thing and it just makes things worse.

bobby1028 · Oct 4, 2024

Bench rest yes, any gains are beneficial. PRS no, if you can hold anywhere close to that off props and beat the clock you're a winner...

flatland1 · Oct 4, 2024

LR1845 said:
I have a DI precision Vudoo with a 1.25" 13T Muller works barrel with a tuner on it...I had Tom install the tuner for looks....it serves no other purpose. I have turned it to the max adjustment both ways 1 full rev at a time and shot 5 shot groups with each rev and it did not change anything, not group size, or POI. I am no scientist but I doubt a 22 creates enough harmonics or barrel movement with a 1.20-1.25" barrel for a tuner to much, if anything.

Like @mark5pt56 said that rifle shoots damn good I'd leave it alone, more often than not you start messing with a good thing and it just makes things worse.

When you said you'd tried the tuner by going 'one full revolution at a time', it pointed out the distinct possibility that you'd skipped over a point where the tuner might've had a positive effect on group size. None of the four barrels I have tuners on are as large as your 1.25" bbl - they're either sendero contour, or Shilen R5 or R0. Sendero bbls are on Vudoo repeaters (early Gen 1 & Three-60), Shilens are on V22S single shots. I've done a lot of shooting with all four rifles to get their tuners set, and there's absolutely no question in my experience that the tuners (two Harrels & two Pro-X) make a difference, but you've got to try finer adjustments to find the sweet spot.

Defender32 · Oct 4, 2024

A straight taper barrel will indeed "tune" for group size. You check every line on a tuner with 2-3 shots on 1 target for each number. You will burn a good amount of ammo doing so.

O.P. with a barrel shooting as good as yours is if the ES & SD are also as good. Check the groups at 200Y. if it is way open it is a possibility tuning at a closer distance to settle the shot to shot dispersion WILL shrink your longer yardage groups.

Here is a picture of my tuner test target and how I run it. All of these shots are a 1.2" barrel at 25" long and a Gen1 EC Tuner. This is SK Standard+. Just a case I had at the house to see what the rifle would do with it for club matches.

oldrifleman · Oct 4, 2024

Rimfire Tuners work, the BR community has proven it many times, they are also not the miracle fix for all thing and barrel geometry plays a part. Long thinner barrels show the most promise with a tuner as the harmonic effects are more dramatic. Short thick barrels show less dramatic results as they naturally damp the harmonic effects better. Are they appropriate in all shooting sports, probably not. To me the 50 yrs results shown are not that spectacular, but also not horrible ( I come from a BR background). The length issue is real in the PRS world and would have to considered. Try one and see if it works for you.

Csafisher · Oct 4, 2024

Defender32 said:
A straight taper barrel will indeed "tune" for group size. You check every line on a tuner with 2-3 shots on 1 target for each number. You will burn a good amount of ammo doing so.

O.P. with a barrel shooting as good as yours is if the ES & SD are also as good. Check the groups at 200Y. if it is way open it is a possibility tuning at a closer distance to settle the shot to shot dispersion WILL shrink your longer yardage groups.

Here is a picture of my tuner test target and how I run it. All of these shots are a 1.2" barrel at 25" long and a Gen1 EC Tuner. This is SK Standard+. Just a case I had at the house to see what the rifle would do with it for club matches.

View attachment 8516980

How can you tell which setting is best using 3 shot groups? I get that a bad group won’t get any better but a good group has a likelihood of “lying” to you. 3 shot groups have around a +/- 60% change is size from group to group.

Defender32 · Oct 4, 2024

I have been doing this for 4 years this way. You will typically have 3-4 groups that stand out of the tested settings @ test distance. (50, 75 or 100) At this time w/ 4 rifles and helping countless other shooters at my club I have probably tested 25-30 lots of ammo in that time frame. If it is Lapua tested ammo I still do the same test to see what I can squeak out of it. 99% of the time you can still get a better group than tested once the rifle is tuned.

Once you have the tuner numbers to see what appeared to shoot the best. Roll to that number and shoot paper at 50y, 75y, 100y and 200y. Shoot multiple 5 round groups or 10 round groups. the tuner test at this point will not lie to you on what groups the best. Once you have done this for plenty of lots of ammo you know what groups to select and how to shorten your test on wasting ammo.

Csafisher · Oct 4, 2024

Defender32 said:
Once you have the tuner numbers to see what appeared to shoot the best. Roll to that number and shoot paper at 50y, 75y, 100y and 200y. Shoot multiple 5 round groups or 10 round groups. the tuner test at this point will not lie to you on what groups the best.

I’ve gone to the bottom of the rabbit hole a couple times with 22s. Every time I find a good tuner group it turns out no better than non tuned. Even 10 shot groups can very 30% or more. Every test I’ve done the results are all within a normal variance of group sizes.

oldrifleman · Oct 4, 2024

I have had Harrels on a few Anschutz rifles in the past. Were they perfect, did they improve my scores, yeah, some. To me a setting is only effective for a given lot of ammo and really only at a given temperature bracket (+/- 10 Deg F). I knew the range of settings that were good for the rifle and I re-calibrated the rifle before each match. When I quit being so serious about my BR scores (Beyond Anal retentive) I pulled the tuners off and just picked the best ammo I could afford and enjoyed the rifles for what they were. Did I consider putting one on my latest rimfire obsession, yes but I did not have the muzzle threaded and at 1.05" it was too thick to fit a Harrels tuner. Am I sad about that, maybe for a day, but I am very happy with it's capability with a naked barrel.

LR1845 · Oct 4, 2024

flatland1 said:
When you said you'd tried the tuner by going 'one full revolution at a time', it pointed out the distinct possibility that you'd skipped over a point where the tuner might've had a positive effect on group size. None of the four barrels I have tuners on are as large as your 1.25" bbl - they're either sendero contour, or Shilen R5 or R0. Sendero bbls are on Vudoo repeaters (early Gen 1 & Three-60), Shilens are on V22S single shots. I've done a lot of shooting with all four rifles to get their tuners set, and there's absolutely no question in my experience that the tuners (two Harrels & two Pro-X) make a difference, but you've got to try finer adjustments to find the sweet spot.

I am not saying tuners do not work...I shot tuners on center fire rifles for several years so I do know how they work and how to adjust them...when you turn a tuner a full revolution it should at least change the POI especially if your turning it several revolutions in or out.

MarshallDodge · Oct 4, 2024

I would spend the money on ammo and practice more in as many conditions as you can.

MarkCZ · Oct 4, 2024

VFL1911 said:
Is a lot tested group like this as good as it gets or would throwing on a tuner tighten it up even more? Been debating testing a Harrels on this, but not sure if it’s worth the time and money or just to continue to extensively lot test until I get these results.

5 shot group at 50 yards grouping .257 and 10 shot group at 100 yards grouping .635

CZ 457 with 21 inch lilja in MDT ACC Premier Gen 2.

Primarily shoot NRL/PRS. Wasn’t sure if the tuner would primarily address tightening up more of those “pretty good” lots but be marginal (if at all) on improving lots like this.

You have vertical in your 100yd group. A tuner will take some of that out. You will be shooting longer ranges, what is your vertical at 200yds.

MarkCZ · Oct 4, 2024

LR1845 said:
I have a DI precision Vudoo with a 1.25" 13T Muller works barrel with a tuner on it...I had Tom install the tuner for looks....it serves no other purpose. I have turned it to the max adjustment both ways 1 full rev at a time and shot 5 shot groups with each rev and it did not change anything, not group size, or POI. I am no scientist but I doubt a 22 creates enough harmonics or barrel movement with a 1.20-1.25" barrel for a tuner to much, if anything.

Like @mark5pt56 said that rifle shoots damn good I'd leave it alone, more often than not you start messing with a good thing and it just makes things worse.

The max you should turn a tuner is 1/4 turn at a time. A full turn will tell you nothing.

LR1845 · Oct 4, 2024

MarkCZ said:
The max you should turn a tuner is 1/4 turn at a time. A full turn will tell you nothing.

So a full turn....Or several full turns will not change the POI? Is that what your saying? Because if it is your wrong!

mark5pt56 · Oct 4, 2024

MarshallDodge said:
I would spend the money on ammo and practice more in as many conditions as you can.

This, get to know the rifle, minute oddities, wind, trends with the rifle as you shoot, ccb, cb, etc.

oldrifleman · Oct 4, 2024

MarkCZ said:
The max you should turn a tuner is 1/4 turn at a time. A full turn will tell you nothing.

No you turn it it one notch at a time. A node can be one or two notches wide. You need to just go through the process. There are math equations that can give you “starting” length of the barrel ( barrel plus tuner). But you test at each mark and record it along with conditions and lot. I find it fun, any time pulling the trigger is fun, but unless you fin and record the nodes you are actually just wasting time.

jetjock07 · Oct 4, 2024

LR1845 said:
So a full turn....Or several full turns will not change the POI? Is that what your saying? Because if it is your wrong!

Of course it will change POI, but the purpose is to find the best grouping with the same POI. A full turn will not show that. With my 22 I only change 2 notches at a time. 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, etc…. Then I find best groups with same POI and test those numbers.

LR1845 · Oct 5, 2024

jetjock07 said:
Of course it will change POI, but the purpose is to find the best grouping with the same POI. A full turn will not show that. With my 22 I only change 2 notches at a time. 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, etc…. Then I find best groups with same POI and test those numbers.

I understand that, and I know how tuners work and how to adjust them...like I said in my post I ran them on center fire rifles for several years...as a matter of fact I was the first shooter at our club to run a tuner.
I stopped using them because as mentioned in this thread they will go out of tune with changing environments and I struggled with this for awhile and watch guys at our local matches still struggle with tuner settings. This is the driving reason I have gone to all 1.25" barrels on all of my comp rifles.

Do you run 1.25" rim fire barrels? Do you have a tuner on an 1.25" rim fire barrel? I am NOT saying they do not work I am saying there was no change when adjusting the tuner on MY 1.25" 13 Twist muller works barrel from DI Precision.

bobby1028 · Oct 5, 2024

I gather from those who posted here with some extensive tuner experience that it's a long, tedious process to get consistent feedback. Not sure I could concentrate thru the process to get reliable results, I can barely get thru 5 shot groups when lot testing without rushing and throwing the obvious flyer by shot #5, and if I could would my best lot still be available to purchase after testing. Don't think my rifle would benefit from a tuner even if I was good enough to take advantage of one, mixed lots I get little if any vertical dispersion...except for my flyers. 50 yd examples below...

oldrifleman · Oct 5, 2024

LR1845 said:
I understand that, and I know how tuners work and how to adjust them...like I said in my post I ran them on center fire rifles for several years...as a matter of fact I was the first shooter at our club to run a tuner.
I stopped using them because as mentioned in this thread they will go out of tune with changing environments and I struggled with this for awhile and watch guys at our local matches still struggle with tuner settings. This is the driving reason I have gone to all 1.25" barrels on all of my comp rifles.

Do you run 1.25" rim fire barrels? Do you have a tuner on an 1.25" rim fire barrel? I am NOT saying they do not work I am saying there was no change when adjusting the tuner on MY 1.25" 13 Twist muller works barrel from DI Precision.

Yeah I had long discussions with the guys are Harrels and they were adamant that’s thick straight barrel would not see much if any improvement with a tuner. The reason s that the vibration nodes of a truck axle were REALLY small and the chance of hitting one and it being meaningful were also really small. Also to make any improvement would require a very large amount weight.
That’s why I gave up my most recent search.

MarkCZ · Oct 5, 2024

LR1845 said:
So a full turn....Or several full turns will not change the POI? Is that what your saying? Because if it is your wrong!

Full turns will change POI but, you missing good setting in the middle. I use a EC V2 tuner. I start flush with the muzzle. Fire 3 shot groups at 50 yds( if first 2 are not touching I move on ) I move 5 marks towards the shooter and 3 more shots and so on. I can go 4 full turns in. You see the groups open and close and move around. I take the best of the best to 200yds. I go 2 marks at time each way, then maybe just 1. I look for best vertical.

Rob01 · Oct 5, 2024

Yup spinning a full turn is just wasting ammo. On my 1.2" barrels I turn 4-5 marks at a time. I also tune at at least 100 yards in my rimfire. I never saw a tune in my centerfire or rimfire go out due to environmental conditions. I have shot at different elevations and temps without issue. The first tuner I tried on my centerfire I tuned at only 100 yards due to range restrictions and at about 300 feet ASL and then went to a match up in WV at about 2000+ feet ASL and different temp and the tune was still great when I shot the 900 yard steel on the practice day.

Tuners work but the OP could be the only one to answer if it was worth it to him to get one. How does that ammo shoot at 100, 200, 300 or 400 yards? If it stays close to the relative size at yardages then I wouldn't worry about it if you have plenty of it. I got tuners on mine so when I change ammo I can try and get it to shoot the best out of my rifles.

MarkCZ · Oct 9, 2024

VFL1911 said:
Is a lot tested group like this as good as it gets or would throwing on a tuner tighten it up even more? Been debating testing a Harrels on this, but not sure if it’s worth the time and money or just to continue to extensively lot test until I get these results.

5 shot group at 50 yards grouping .257 and 10 shot group at 100 yards grouping .635

CZ 457 with 21 inch lilja in MDT ACC Premier Gen 2.

Primarily shoot NRL/PRS. Wasn’t sure if the tuner would primarily address tightening up more of those “pretty good” lots but be marginal (if at all) on improving lots like this.

You have great groups as is. your 50yds has no vertical, but maybe a little wind. Your 100yd group has a little vertical. I don't know if a tuner will improve you 100yds group. But check your ammo at 200yds and see what the vertical is. If has more vertical than width a tuner can take some that vertical out. I have had groups at 200yds shaped like your 50 yds group. one bullet tall and 1" to 1.5" wide in good conditions.
I main thing that sold me on a tuner, that there is no need to chase lots again. Just buy a new lot of your Lapua Long Range and retune. I have done it 3 times with SK Longe Range. All I had to do last time, was fine tune it at 200yds. A lot of guys say they don't work. Some they work some what. Then there is the group says Tuners work Damn good. You just need to know how to use them. Search " MarkCZ, EC V2 tuner and B14R" to see my process.

bobby1028 · Oct 9, 2024

MarkCZ said:
You have great groups as is. your 50yds has no vertical, but maybe a little wind. Your 100yd group has a little vertical. I don't know if a tuner will improve you 100yds group. But check your ammo at 200yds and see what the vertical is. If has more vertical than width a tuner can take some that vertical out. I have had groups at 200yds shaped like your 50 yds group. one bullet tall and 1" to 1.5" wide in good conditions.
I main thing that sold me on a tuner, that there is no need to chase lots again. Just buy a new lot of your Lapua Long Range and retune. I have done it 3 times with SK Longe Range. All I had to do last time, was fine tune it at 200yds. A lot of guys say they don't work. Some they work some what. Then there is the group says Tuners work Damn good. You just need to know how to use them. Search " MarkCZ, EC V2 tuner and B14R" to see my process.

Just adds to how much I need to think about. Considering converting my RH 457 to a benchrest gun .I'm LH. My first PRS was a RH 457 due to lack of LH action, since resolved...built a good LH when the varmints became available. So my RH gets treated like a bastard step child, thinking a Lilja 26x1.00, big Lilja fan won't talk me out of that...but it's unfamiliar territory for me. Modify the Timney currently on the rifle, stone and polish the OEM trigger, SFP scope options, have no clue...stocks, quality micro adjust rest, tuner...no clue. Going to start a thread for some guidance. A never ending mystery to the pursuit of accuracy in a 22lr platform...gotta love it

Csafisher · Oct 9, 2024

MarkCZ said:
You have great groups as is. your 50yds has no vertical, but maybe a little wind. Your 100yd group has a little vertical. I don't know if a tuner will improve you 100yds group. But check your ammo at 200yds and see what the vertical is. If has more vertical than width a tuner can take some that vertical out. I have had groups at 200yds shaped like your 50 yds group. one bullet tall and 1" to 1.5" wide in good conditions.
I main thing that sold me on a tuner, that there is no need to chase lots again. Just buy a new lot of your Lapua Long Range and retune. I have done it 3 times with SK Longe Range. All I had to do last time, was fine tune it at 200yds. A lot of guys say they don't work. Some they work some what. Then there is the group says Tuners work Damn good. You just need to know how to use them. Search " MarkCZ, EC V2 tuner and B14R" to see my process.

So you don’t think a tuner could help him at 100yd but it could at 200yd? lol please explain that one….

oldrifleman · Oct 9, 2024

Simple. The group at 100 is fairly circular but that will expand at 200. If you start seeing vertical at 200, you can try to minimize that with a tuner. It won’t hurt the 100 and 50 yard groups (may shrink them) but ammo will show things at 200 as it will exaggerate the 100 yard dispersion.

Csafisher · Oct 10, 2024

oldrifleman said:
Simple. The group at 100 is fairly circular but that will expand at 200. If you start seeing vertical at 200, you can try to minimize that with a tuner. It won’t hurt the 100 and 50 yard groups (may shrink them) but ammo will show things at 200 as it will exaggerate the 100 yard dispersion.

I asking how it is possible for groups to stay the same at 100 and improve at 200. That’s what mark is saying. Toooners must be magic….

trlrman · Oct 10, 2024

Defender32 said:
A straight taper barrel will indeed "tune" for group size. You check every line on a tuner with 2-3 shots on 1 target for each number. You will burn a good amount of ammo doing so.

O.P. with a barrel shooting as good as yours is if the ES & SD are also as good. Check the groups at 200Y. if it is way open it is a possibility tuning at a closer distance to settle the shot to shot dispersion WILL shrink your longer yardage groups.

Here is a picture of my tuner test target and how I run it. All of these shots are a 1.2" barrel at 25" long and a Gen1 EC Tuner. This is SK Standard+. Just a case I had at the house to see what the rifle would do with it for club matches.

View attachment 8516980

Which 1 did you settle on ?

Defender32 · Oct 10, 2024

trlrman said:
Which 1 did you settle on ?

1 + 24. It was the most consistent for 75y, 100, 150 & 200. 10 shots at 75y was right at .4". 10 at 100 was just under .7. 10 at 200 was right at 2" outside to outside.

trlrman · Oct 10, 2024

Defender32 said:
1 + 24. It was the most consistent for 75y, 100, 150 & 200. 10 shots at 75y was right at .4". 10 at 100 was just under .7. 10 at 200 was right at 2" outside to outside.

I was guessing 2+20 or 22 then adjust scope

MarkCZ · Oct 10, 2024

Csafisher said:
I asking how it is possible for groups to stay the same at 100 and improve at 200. That’s what mark is saying. Toooners must be magic….

I said "I don't know if it will help" I don't say it will not help. IMO it should help the 100yds group, 200yds and on out.
Have you tried a tuner? You would know, if you know how use a tune. Tuner's are magic.

Csafisher · Oct 10, 2024

MarkCZ said:
I said "I don't know if it will help" I don't say it will not help. IMO it should help the 100yds group, 200yds and on out.
Have you tried a tuner? You would know, if you know how use a tune. Tuner's are magic.

Yes. Have not found them to work. I’d be willing to bet you haven’t shot enough rounds to say they actually work. 5 and 10 shot groups have a lot of variance. Tuner “experts” can’t even agree on how they work….

MarkCZ · Oct 10, 2024

Csafisher said:
Yes. Have not found them to work. I’d be willing to bet you haven’t shot enough rounds to say they actually work. 5 and 10 shot groups have a lot of variance. Tuner “experts” can’t even agree on how they work….

So you are saying, you do not have a tuner, and don't know how they work. You don't have to agree on how they work. You need to know THEY DO WORK
You would lose the bet. I have shot long range for 30 years. I have shot 3 world records In IBS 600yd benchrest and won many long range steel knockdown rimfire matches. I shoot long range rimfire 2 times a week for the last 5 years. 500 to 1000 rounds per week. I have been using tuner for nearly 3 years. My old range we shot steel knockdown out to 400yds, 12" gongs at 500yds. I moved to SC this year. my range is out to 300yds. I set up 1" to 6" steel at 200yds and 3" to 8' steel 300yds only The only time I shoot at 50yds and 100yds is to zero a scope.
I have shot enough to know they work. Tuner's took my long range rimfire shooting to the next level.

oldrifleman · Oct 10, 2024

Agreed, they do work! In the BR world it is highly unlikely that you could end up on the leader board without a tuner.

Csafisher · Oct 10, 2024

MarkCZ said:
So you are saying, you do not have a tuner, and don't know how they work. You don't have to agree on how they work. You need to know THEY DO WORK
You would lose the bet. I have shot long range for 30 years. I have shot 3 world records In IBS 600yd benchrest and won many long range steel knockdown rimfire matches. I shoot long range rimfire 2 times a week for the last 5 years. 500 to 1000 rounds per week. I have been using tuner for nearly 3 years. My old range we shot steel knockdown out to 400yds, 12" gongs at 500yds. I moved to SC this year. my range is out to 300yds. I set up 1" to 6" steel at 200yds and 3" to 8' steel 300yds only The only time I shoot at 50yds and 100yds is to zero a scope.
I have shot enough to know they work. Tuner's took my long range rimfire shooting to the next level.

Didnt ask about your range. I asked about your testing and sample sizes….. Shooting a bunch of 3 and 5 shot groups is nonsense. Even 10 shows a lot of variance. Too much to conclude which setting would be “best.” Shoot some 30-40rd groups…. Anyone have a test like that showing that they do? I’ve only seen tests showing they don’t work.

I do have 2 tuners. Centerfire and rimfire. No statistical differences found.

MarkCZ · Oct 11, 2024

I shoot 3 shots groups ( just two if not touching ) when finding the tune, then many 5 shot groups, to confirm the best. My goal is long range. 30-40rd groups a 200yds is a waste of ammo. Condition change so fast, you can't tell anything. You don't know what is going, wind, and so on. What is the difference between 6-8 5 shot groups vs 30-40 rd ? 5 shot groups show you accuracy without condition changes. I see why you get "No statistical differences found."

Csafisher · Oct 11, 2024

MarkCZ said:
I shoot 3 shots groups ( just two if not touching ) when finding the tune, then many 5 shot groups, to confirm the best. My goal is long range. 30-40rd groups a 200yds is a waste of ammo. Condition change so fast, you can't tell anything. You don't know what is going, wind, and so on. What is the difference between 6-8 5 shot groups vs 30-40 rd ? 5 shot groups show you accuracy without condition changes. I see why you get "No statistical differences found."

Group sizes will follow normal distribution around your real average. 5 shot groups can vary 45% +\- your average. Do the math….

Defender32 · Oct 11, 2024

Csafisher is one of those guys that believes what FEW tell him about tuners NOT Working. Brian Litz and Applied Ballistics being one of those the push " Tuners Don't Work" . I like Brian and lots off his findings. I believe he is great in what he does with AB & The Radar system.

The shooters that use Tuners for Rimfire and their discipline know that they work and do what they do well. I have my rimfire with them installed and use them to the fullest. There are times with different Lot's of ammo its not needed or makes minimal change due to how good that lot is. There are also times where 1 rifle really likes that ammo and another one not so well. I tune the other rifle so I can have a backup for the same lot of ammo.

@MarkCZ your groups of 5 shots for 6-10 groups is an equlivent test to 40 or 50 shot at the same dot. In tuning the weather needs to be perfect for proper testing. I will do just what you are doing. I test my tuner at a set distance. Find the few possible nodes and test those for 10 -20 rounds of 5 shot groups. Then I'll settle on 1 node, re zero at 50y. I'll then proceed to test and DSF my data out with 5-10 shots at each yardage from 75y in 25y increments to 350y. This has worked well for me and a slew of other shooters within a 3 hour drive of me.

Rob01 · Oct 11, 2024

MarkCZ said:
I shoot 3 shots groups ( just two if not touching ) when finding the tune, then many 5 shot groups, to confirm the best. My goal is long range. 30-40rd groups a 200yds is a waste of ammo. Condition change so fast, you can't tell anything. You don't know what is going, wind, and so on. What is the difference between 6-8 5 shot groups vs 30-40 rd ? 5 shot groups show you accuracy without condition changes. I see why you get "No statistical differences found."

Don't bother arguing. He's a "statistic" guy and will just come back with "statistics say....". I go by what the target says. When I can shoot and see a group tighten when the tuner adjusts it proves it works. I have been using the same tune with my case of SK LR in different temps and conditions and it still shoots tight. But never wasted ammo and shot a 40 shot group so I am sure it doesn't count. LOL

Hoser · Oct 11, 2024

In my experience tuners will not make crappy ammo into a magic lot of awesome ammo.

I try an initial tune at 50 yards and then see of I can improve anything at 100 yards. I would try further but thats the longest indoor range that I have access to.

Most of the time the POA/POI will shift around and group size will vary. Usually when the group gets to about 6:00 on the target that is a really good start point for being in tune. The groups from there can get a bit better and also more round.

But I am just a hack with more dollars than sense.

Csafisher · Oct 11, 2024

Defender32 said:
Csafisher is one of those guys that believes what FEW tell him about tuners NOT Working. Brian Litz and Applied Ballistics being one of those the push " Tuners Don't Work" . I like Brian and lots off his findings. I believe he is great in what he does with AB & The Radar system.

The shooters that use Tuners for Rimfire and their discipline know that they work and do what they do well. I have my rimfire with them installed and use them to the fullest. There are times with different Lot's of ammo its not needed or makes minimal change due to how good that lot is. There are also times where 1 rifle really likes that ammo and another one not so well. I tune the other rifle so I can have a backup for the same lot of ammo.

@MarkCZ your groups of 5 shots for 6-10 groups is an equlivent test to 40 or 50 shot at the same dot. In tuning the weather needs to be perfect for proper testing. I will do just what you are doing. I test my tuner at a set distance. Find the few possible nodes and test those for 10 -20 rounds of 5 shot groups. Then I'll settle on 1 node, re zero at 50y. I'll then proceed to test and DSF my data out with 5-10 shots at each yardage from 75y in 25y increments to 350y. This has worked well for me and a slew of other shooters within a 3 hour drive of me.

I don’t have a dog in the fight. I’d love for them to work as advertised. I haven’t found that to be the case. I think it’s a waste of time, especially for the PRS world. You can’t tune out a high SD/ES. If they actually work, then why doesn’t someone do a test proving it with relevant sample sizes. The only tests doing that prove otherwise. I’d also encourage y’all to look at slow motion footage of bullets exiting the muzzle… no harmonics…. Just recoil.

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