It’s not really an argument…. Group sizes follow statistics. The target doesn’t lie and neither do statistics. And it turns out that they match up! lol.
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Can a tuner improve these sub MOA groups?
- Thread starter VFL1911
- Start date
** You dont have a dog in the fight. Yet you continue to say they do not work or do not work for you.
One thing you and I can agree on is it takes a good lot of ammo to even be capable of being tuned to a better group.
We will agree to disagree on everything else. For my discipline of NRL22 & PRS style matches I do not need to test 30-40 rounds at a distance.
I lot test all my ammo for my rifles and have GREAT lots of ammo. * Current * Eley Match 7.8 SD, 19 ES of 65 rounds, *Current* Midas + SD 8.6 & ES of 21. The groups are round at all distances inside of 275y. Each ammo shoots equally well in both of my primary rifles.
Bryan Litz has always stated that having a weight on the end of a barrel, whether that's a tuner or something like a suppressor, aids in precision.
What he didn't find is that changing the tuner settings having any real measurable effect on on precision, once you expanding the tests to larger sample sizes.
So Litz does see value in tuners, just not in the way that the tuner crowd advocates. If this has changed, and he's a believer in adjusting a tuner a thou this way or that way to find the perfect "node", I would be very interested to see that. But him having a tuner on his rifle is not evidence that his opinion has changed on tuners.
Even if they work, the cone of error for every discipline besides BR is bigger than tuners seem to help. Positional groups under 1”@100 vertical are about my limit.
Not really. Being able to have the best accuracy is always better than not even in positional. Your wobble is what it is but if the accuracy is smaller than that then that’s good. A tuner can help.
If my Rimfire rifle can hit 1 MOA@100, no, threading and a tuner really don’t do much for me. If the targets get smaller than that, I may adjust, or just move on to some other hobby.
He won the worlds with no tuner…………….. and the national also I believe………………
Where’s the litz post you’re talking about?
My BAD, It was not Brian Litz that I was think about, It was John Whidden of Whidden Gunworks in Nashville, GA. He was working with tuner at the test center.
Brian is work on updated 22lr ballistic for his app.
Sorry for error
Brian is work on updated 22lr ballistic for his app.
Sorry for error
I don't know what match he won with or without a tuner. I'm going by what he is saying in the podcast He is using tuner's now per the podcast, he said so in both. Listen to what is saying, on how well they can work.
If i had a 22 that consistently shot 10rd groups at 100 under 0.75 MOA like that, I would never, ever touch it, period.
That said as long as you don't have to modify the barrel you're not out anything trying one aside time and $ since you could always go back if it didn't pan out. Most of the guys I know running tuners all say the same thing, it tends to really only help in very small amounts and they do a ton of testing etc. to find the best setting. Then they all seem to do different things, some leave them alone and never touch them, others swear they see improvement changing the setting between ammo lots and also significant swings in temp and even pressure.
That said as long as you don't have to modify the barrel you're not out anything trying one aside time and $ since you could always go back if it didn't pan out. Most of the guys I know running tuners all say the same thing, it tends to really only help in very small amounts and they do a ton of testing etc. to find the best setting. Then they all seem to do different things, some leave them alone and never touch them, others swear they see improvement changing the setting between ammo lots and also significant swings in temp and even pressure.
I'm like you I would never thread a barrel like that. Bolt on tuner only. But I have added brakes to centerfire with no change, but they were bigger barrels.
I was thinking about it from another angle. It isn't going to make a crappy 'brand' (ie high ES) better, but instead of 'tuning'/picking the lot of ammo to the barrel- buy consistent ammo and tune the barrel to that lot of ammo. I don't have time or patience to send my gun in and get lot testing, but my thought is buy good ammo, and I can use the tuner.
I guess it wasn't Litz(?), but anecdotally I had a CZ457 with a Lilja barrel- less than stellar with CenterX and some old Wolf Match. I put a tuner on it and it shot half the group size. I did 'tune' it some, but the EC tuner definitely helped just by its presence.
Of course, I have an identical (different stock) CZ set up for my son, and that didn't seem to help- but I think I need to look at the headspace on that gun.
Also, if conditions and shooter ability are adding noise to the groups, a tuner isn't going to address that.
