16” .308 vs 16” 6.5CM Duel out to 1250yds

I watched it the other day when he first posted it. Not gonna lie, I figured the creed was going to walk all over the 308 but the 308 held it's own. Got me wanting to try some 169's in the LMT now. I want to try the 168 tmk also.

Jack Leuba’s thoughts on the 14.5” 6.5 Creed are very interesting and he is a proponent. Maybe he would comment about the comparison…

LRRPF52 said:

He’s shooting 169gr SMKs in the .308 Win, and 144gr Hybrids in the 6.5CM.

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The 169s are fantastic, I shot a bunch of them through my SSG-3000 and they flew very well to 1000 very predictable and not a lot of weirdness with wind. The 175s I'm shooting now aren't as good past about 800-900 wind grabs them a lot more.

AB's reported G7 BC's

144gr .325
169gr .257

His reported G7 BC's

144gr .356
169gr .300

Here's my takeaway:

Shooting 1.5 - 2 moa at 100? That means he's probably shooting 2 - 3 moa at distance

Reduces the velocity down to 30-30 Win speeds. ES is high

Two-cycle, large frame, gas gun recoil

He has all kinds of shit mounted on them so their heavy as hell. Even with a 16" barrel the guns still aren't small or highly maneuverable.

At what point are you just better off shooting a smaller bolt gun. I think a lot of people feel like they have more firepower with a large frame AR but their still limited to mostly 20rd mags. And it's a precision rifle, supposedly. How much of a difference will the increased rate of fire(20 RDS at a time) really make in most scenarios? The margins are pretty thin.

SFree said:

Jack Leuba’s thoughts on the 14.5” 6.5 Creed are very interesting and he is a proponent. Maybe he would comment about the comparison…

Click to expand...

The performance from those .30 cal 169gr projectiles was pretty impressive.
The vast majority of my 6.5 shooting is with 140gr Bergers and 135gr A-tips. Compared to a 20" 7.62 throwing M118LR or AB39 (175gr SMK) a 14.5" 6.5 will be nearly identical on drop, but with appreciably reduced wind. Step up to a 16" barrel and I get a little more MV while still being small enough to move with and I don't need to worry about NFA hassles.
Generally speaking, at sea level with a 175gr SMK a 20" 7.62 is a 4 MPH gun. A 16" 6.5 is a 5MPH gun. I do think that gaining a mile per hour in gun number is appreciable, especially if I can drop a significant amount of weight and length off the base system.

The wind isn't really talked about in the video, but given that he's using handloaded 144s and 169s, it's really a different discussion. Frankly, I see this video as more of a comparison of 2 different ammo types in 16" guns. Sure, comparing AB39 to M1200 is also comparing two different ammo types, but they're standardized in-service ammunition for program of record rifles.

If you're comparing your 6.5 Creedmoor to a 20 year old 308 bullet it's going to look pretty good. When I compared the 144gr LRHT at 2500 to a 155gr or 169gr at reasonable velocities the Creed had about .7 to .8 mrad more drop and gained about .3 to .4 mrad of wind over the 308. Still an advantage but much less of one. The 308 in short barrels benefits from a larger bore size which demonstrates, in a lot of cartridges, to produce faster velocities than the same parent case with a smaller caliber. Of the course the Creed isn't bc it has less case capacity as well. The shorter barrels you go, the narrower the margins are.

As far as comparing standardized ammo, the conversation just gets more complicated. In reality, that becomes about which cartridge do we choose to modernize. When your developing 300 Norma, polymer cases, putting 6.5 C into service, you can only pick so many initiatives. The 308 is just getting left behind. The big Army is seriously loath to change and develop small arms munitions. It's why they stuck with 300WM in the first place when SOCOM pursued 338LM, then 338 Norma, and eventually 300NM. That discussion is more about which round we choose to develop. For simplicity sake with civilians the discussion of 16" cartridges doesn't have to be constrained to in service bullets.