Getting started in rimfire PRS - What rife?

dm250 · Oct 25, 2024

Hi All,

I am really getting the 22 rimfire bug and am falling into the black hole fast. I have a 10/22 style KIDD supergrade that I have dusted off out of the safe that I have really started to shoot alot and now I am thinking I want to go all out and getting a super nice bolt action. But now comes my question where should I start rife wise? I don't plan on winning any national matches I am just average Joe that really enjoys shooting rimfire and has an appreciation of fine craftsmanship in guns. I would like to dabble in some local NRL22/PRS matches but just for fun. I have been looking for a little while now at some of the used CZ's and Tikka's that come and go on this site as well as others but I also feel like if I go down this road why spend the money on that when later I might want a Vudoo or Rimx. So I guess my real question is for those that have gone down the rimfire rabbit hole is it better to just buy once and cry once and just go all out and get Vudoo/Rimx or would you say start slow and work your way up?

For some background I am coming from years of shooting competitively in the clay target world both NSSA, NSCA, and some ISSF skeet. So a DI precision barreled Vudoo with some super nice glass is not jaw dropping to me (when you compare that to what some of my clay target guns cost) but at the same time if something like a second hand $1500-$2k 455 with a Lilja barrel will get the job done then I would much rather go that route.

oldrifleman · Oct 25, 2024

So what are you like? Are you one in a constant drive to do better? If you are then go for a Vudoo or Rimx as that is where you will end up. Figure rifle and scope are about the same price, a couple of cases of match ammo ( say 1100 each) and other gear. If this is a passing fancy then start with a cz457 and a new barrel. In between are the tikka and bergera ( I know spelled them wrong) long term best is a 700 clone as you have the most upgrade parts and stocks. Note gear and triggers are easy to get and can be added later. Speaking as one who has been on a 30 year upgrade path, Welcome to the funny Farm we have tee shirts

LR1845 · Oct 25, 2024

@dm250 If you shot clays competitively my suggestion would be to go Vudoo or RimX. I have shot with 2 guys over the years that came from shooting clays, seen their guns and also seen what those guns sold for, if you where shooting one of THOSE guns then you will never be happy with a CZ, Tikka or Bergara.

DFOOSKING · Oct 25, 2024

You shot competitively and want to dabble in competition.....and like the fine things.

Do you want $2500 competition rifle or the $600 hunting rifle pressed into competition.

Seems like a hard choice.

RETE8 · Oct 25, 2024

Victrix Armaments small bore models are intriguing….

beetroot · Oct 25, 2024

I wouldn't get a 455, the 457 is a better rifle in everyway (bolt, safety, trigger, aftermaket options). If you are wanting to dabble in NRL and don't want to pay Vudoo prices then CZ457 is the way to go.

Obviously a Vudoo build is going to be nice but if you cant want to drop 6k on a setup then CZ457 is the way to go.

Mr. Wolf · Oct 25, 2024

Good recs here. One man's opinion: for reliable mag feeding and Lego like customization, I'd go with the cheapest iron sight CZ457 and get a Modacam barrel and a stock/chassis of your choice.
You can go from a 5 lb squirrel gun to a full up NRL22 setup by slapping on a scope, barrel, and stock/chassis at home with some Torx/Allen bits.
Ymmv, happy shooting

hlee · Oct 25, 2024

A Kidd Supergrade can hold its own against Tikkas and CZs, but will fall just shy of the Vudoos. Having shot a Kidd for a couple of years, I would not consider anything less than a Vudoo an upgrade.

DownhillFromHere · Oct 25, 2024

I was also a long-time NSSA skeet competitor who was bitten by the rifle bug almost eight years ago. I started off in competition with a pair of Tikka centerfire rifles and a CZ-455 .22.

Don't bother with a CZ or similar .22, if you have the budget. Go with Vudoo or Rim-X. Trust me. If you have a Krieghoff, Kolar, or other top-tier shotgun in your safe, you won't stay happy with anything less than the same level of quality in a rimfire rifle. Yes, the CZ-457 is a VERY capable rifle - like Beretta makes a VERY capable competition shotgun.

Plus, with Vudoo or Rim-X you're in the R700-footprint ecosystem with its mind-numbing array of options for triggers and stocks/chassis and, if you don't like one or want to try something different, just swap it out for another.

Just be aware that Vudoo and Rim-X are quite different in their designs. I've written about that here several times, with this post probably the easiest for compare/contrast. While my Rim-X feeds more smoothly than my Vudoo, I go to the latter for competition -see the post. The Rim-X has become rather a safe queen, but I can't bring myself to sell it... and having a backup is good. (One thing I said in that post is that Rim-X is compatible with pre-fit barrels and Vudoo is not; this statement in not completely accurate... there are prefits for Vudoo but not to the degree of availability as Rim-X.)

A couple of notes about optics.

I have learned through experience that a high-magnification optic has a definitive drawback for competition. Rimfire matches often have targets relatively close in, and when magnification is reduced to allow quick acquisition, the reticle shrinks to the point where seeing subtensions is difficult (of course, this presupposes a first focal plane scope; don't even think about a second-plane optic). I had a Vortex Razor 6-36x56 on the Vudoo and moved it to my main centerfire rifle for this reason; the Vudoo now wears my ZCO 5-27x56 with its thicker reticle.
Many shooters "require" an optic the focuses down to 10 yards or so. This is sort of a red herring. If you have a really close target in PRS-style competition, you're almost certainly not going to want high magnification to address it. When you reduce magnification, you increase depth of field. I ran a 2nd-gen Vortex Razor 4.5-27x56 on my Vudoo for a couple of years - min focus ~40 yards. No problem addressing closer targets with reduced magnification.

Welcome to the rabbit hole....

TheJeanyus · Oct 25, 2024

I typically recommend a B14R for starters, but given your background and tastes I'd suggest going ahead and getting a Vudoo or Rim-X, the top-tier stock/chassis of your choice, and putting good glass on it. You're probably going to end up going down that road in short order anyway, so you might as well start there. While the precision of a CZ, Tikka, or Bergara with a bunch of accessories thrown at it can get the job done, a purpose-built custom gun will give you the feel and confidence you'll appreciate more.

dm250 · Oct 26, 2024

Thanks everyone for the responses.

I am definingly leaning towards a Vudoo but I guess my only hold back is do I really need "that much gun"

I guess I have alot of thinking to do. I feel like I am in one of those cartoons with the devil on one should and angle on the other arguing

ma smith · Oct 26, 2024

dm250 said:
Thanks everyone for the responses.

I am definingly leaning towards a Vudoo but I guess my only hold back is do I really need "that much gun"

I guess I have alot of thinking to do. I feel like I am in one of those cartoons with the devil on one should and angle on the other arguing

The $1.5-2k BA is only 1/3rd the cost of the whole gun, the optic and fully kitted out chassis/bipod are similar level of expenses.

DrA1 · Oct 26, 2024

Here’s my rabbit hole journey

Ruger RPR — cool, but nope, quality doesn’t allow it to shoot tight enough groups — don’t waste money putting lipstick on this pig, sold it

Bergara B14R - barreled action, trigger tech, mdt chassis— this on can shoot and it’s on a 700 foot print, but tons of weight needed up front to balance it.

Next up, full send on a Vudoo 360 — now I see what the hype is about — 50 yards groups in the .3s almost everytime, in krg bravo with heavy arca and front weights to balance a 20 inch kukri contour

Back to the Bergara — now I want it to shoot as good (or better than) the vudoo, so off to crossroads precision rifles in Texas for a 25 inch muller works in M24 contour — jackpot — this setup is ridiculously good— it out shoots my 360 now and I don’t need any add on weight to balance perfectly in front of my mag well.

Back to the Vudoo — now I want the same consistent accuracy as the re barreled b14r — so here we go — DI precision has the gun now and going with a MW barrel at 25 inches but did a straight taper 1.125 to try a little different balance.

I also have a T1X — heavy 16 inch barrel- threaded with a suppressor that is used for hunting — I am always amazed at the accuracy with this little gun — it shoots tight groups at 50 yards (sub moa), but not as good as the custom barrel Bergara or Vudoo— but given the price point and light weight it is a good gun. Too light in the factory stock for competition in my opinion.

Lesson here — if you will not be satisfied with “ok” — then skip the progression and break it off big and get a full on custom rig (it’ll save you money in the long run)

DrA1 · Oct 26, 2024

dm250 said:
Thanks everyone for the responses.

I am definingly leaning towards a Vudoo but I guess my only hold back is do I really need "that much gun"

I guess I have alot of thinking to do. I feel like I am in one of those cartoons with the devil on one should and angle on the other arguing

See my post below —- YESSSSS - you need that much gun

LR1845 · Oct 26, 2024

dm250 said:
Thanks everyone for the responses.

I am definingly leaning towards a Vudoo but I guess my only hold back is do I really need "that much gun"

I guess I have alot of thinking to do. I feel like I am in one of those cartoons with the devil on one should and angle on the other arguing

Listen to the Devil....He's right this time.

hlee · Oct 26, 2024

@dm250 are you a “b gun” or a “k gun” shooter?

If b gun, go tikka/CZ/bergara/etc.

If k gun, go voodoo/Rimx/etc…

Masojoh · Oct 26, 2024

dm250 said:
Thanks everyone for the responses.

I am definingly leaning towards a Vudoo but I guess my only hold back is do I really need "that much gun"

I guess I have alot of thinking to do. I feel like I am in one of those cartoons with the devil on one should and angle on the other arguing

Shoot the super grade for at least 5-6 months. I have two super grades and one Kidd classic. Practice finding the ammo it likes, because that is something you’ll have to do with any rifle you go with.

I typically shoot 200 yard groups when evaluating ammo lots. My best RimX ammo lot and my best Kidd ammo lot are almost indistinguishable at that distance.

Spend your money on great glass now. You can move that from rifle to rifle with no issue. Test different ammo lots until you find one that shoots MOA at 200 yards. Adjust the Kidd trigger down to 10 ounces or lower. And be sure you have a stock or chassis with a rear tang. And for heavens’s sake, keep your rifle clean. That Kidd will carry you a long ways.

Kadams1563 · Oct 26, 2024

Just buy a Vudoo 360 with a 24 1.2” straight or a 25” 1.2 straight from one of the builders lol. You’re going to anyway.

If you want to start out and buy something else until you want a full Vudoo build then get a 457 MTR from Area 419 to start you off.

Rimfire is much more fun the centerfire IMO. You can go blow 500 rounds without much problem.

dm250 · Oct 26, 2024

Masojoh said:
Shoot the super grade for at least 5-6 months. I have two super grades and one Kidd classic. Practice finding the ammo it likes, because that is something you’ll have to do with any rifle you go with.

I typically shoot 200 yard groups when evaluating ammo lots. My best RimX ammo lot and my best Kidd ammo lot are almost indistinguishable at that distance.

Spend your money on great glass now. You can move that from rifle to rifle with no issue. Test different ammo lots until you find one that shoots MOA at 200 yards. Adjust the Kidd trigger down to 10 ounces or lower. And be sure you have a stock or chassis with a rear tang. And for heavens’s sake, keep your rifle clean. That Kidd will carry you a long ways.

I do like my KIDD but for some reason I just feel like I "need" a bolt action as well.

Yup my KIDD is setup pretty much as you described. 20" KIDD heavy match barrel, sitting in a KRG bravo with the rear tang, KIDD 8oz trigger, and at the moment I have some midrange glass on it (Ares ETR UHD 4.5-30×56) For the money I found these to be super nice value.

When I first got it I did shoot alot of different ammo through it. It did like Center-x and Midas but if I remember correctly found Eley to be a little more tighter and at the moment I am struggling to find Lapua or SK rimfire ammo so have not really been able to go back and test any. Eley seems to be super easy to get from Killough or Champions. I have had good luck with Tenex and Match. Precision BR was not bad, and I tired Team, Club, Extreme LR, Target, as well but did not have as good of luck with them. I can't say I was every getting MOA or sub MOA at 200yds with any of them but that is probably just me as a shooter. Or maybe I just have not found the right ammo. I never go super scientific with it.

hlee said:
@dm250 are you a “b gun” or a “k gun” shooter?

If b gun, go tikka/CZ/bergara/etc.

If k gun, go voodoo/Rimx/etc…

Haha I am for sure a K gun guy I have a K80 for sporting, Kolar setup for skeet with carrier barrel and full set of tubes, and also have a Blaser that Robert Paxton setup for me with a matching carrier barrel and full set tubes. Probably sell off one of them to fund my new rimfire addiction.

Kadams1563 said:
Just buy a Vudoo 360 with a 24 1.2” straight or a 25” 1.2 straight from one of the builders lol. You’re going to anyway.

If you want to start out and buy something else until you want a full Vudoo build then get a 457 MTR from Area 419 to start you off.

Rimfire is much more fun the centerfire IMO. You can go blow 500 rounds without much problem.

Yeah right now my eye is on a DI Precision Vudoo with a 25" 1-1/4"

Yeah I dabbled in centerfire but ill just keep that for hunting. I find rimfire so much more fun to shoot and your right being able to blow a brick of rimfire ammo great, especially the fact that you don't have to reload!!! After shooting clays so much I am pretty over reloading.

Kadams1563 · Oct 26, 2024

dm250 said:
I do like my KIDD but for some reason I just feel like I "need" a bolt action as well.

Yup my KIDD is setup pretty much as you described. 20" KIDD heavy match barrel, sitting in a KRG bravo with the rear tang, KIDD 8oz trigger, and at the moment I have some midrange glass on it (Ares ETR UHD 4.5-30×56) For the money I found these to be super nice value.

When I first got it I did shoot alot of different ammo through it. It did like Center-x and Midas but if I remember correctly found Eley to be a little more tighter and at the moment I am struggling to find Lapua or SK rimfire ammo so have not really been able to go back and test any. Eley seems to be super easy to get from Killough or Champions. I have had good luck with Tenex and Match. Precision BR was not bad, and I tired Team, Club, Extreme LR, Target, as well but did not have as good of luck with them. I can't say I was every getting MOA or sub MOA at 200yds with any of them but that is probably just me as a shooter. Or maybe I just have not found the right ammo. I never go super scientific with it.

Haha I am for sure a K gun guy I have a K80 for sporting, Kolar setup for skeet with carrier barrel and full set of tubes, and also have a Blaser that Robert Paxton setup for me with a matching carrier barrel and full set tubes. Probably sell off one of them to fund my new rimfire addiction.

Yeah right now my eye is on a DI Precision Vudoo with a 25" 1-1/4"

Yeah I dabbled in centerfire but ill just keep that for hunting. I find rimfire so much more fun to shoot and your right being able to blow a brick of rimfire ammo great, especially the fact that you don't have to reload!!! After shooting clays so much I am pretty over reloading.

I have a DI 360 build. Bought it for $2k with L3I mags. Hell of a deal IMO. They come up for sale here pretty often it seems.

I’d buy another in a heartbeat. I have a lot of fun with it and it shoots great even with yellow box SK, CCI standard. I have not ventured into true match rimfire yet with center X, Eley match, or higher grade ammo yet. For shooting PRS style matches with it SK standard works great.

MarkCZ · Oct 26, 2024

dm250 said:
I do like my KIDD but for some reason I just feel like I "need" a bolt action as well.

Yup my KIDD is setup pretty much as you described. 20" KIDD heavy match barrel, sitting in a KRG bravo with the rear tang, KIDD 8oz trigger, and at the moment I have some midrange glass on it (Ares ETR UHD 4.5-30×56) For the money I found these to be super nice value.

When I first got it I did shoot alot of different ammo through it. It did like Center-x and Midas but if I remember correctly found Eley to be a little more tighter and at the moment I am struggling to find Lapua or SK rimfire ammo so have not really been able to go back and test any. Eley seems to be super easy to get from Killough or Champions. I have had good luck with Tenex and Match. Precision BR was not bad, and I tired Team, Club, Extreme LR, Target, as well but did not have as good of luck with them. I can't say I was every getting MOA or sub MOA at 200yds with any of them but that is probably just me as a shooter. Or maybe I just have not found the right ammo. I never go super scientific with it.

Haha I am for sure a K gun guy I have a K80 for sporting, Kolar setup for skeet with carrier barrel and full set of tubes, and also have a Blaser that Robert Paxton setup for me with a matching carrier barrel and full set tubes. Probably sell off one of them to fund my new rimfire addiction.

Yeah right now my eye is on a DI Precision Vudoo with a 25" 1-1/4"

Yeah I dabbled in centerfire but ill just keep that for hunting. I find rimfire so much more fun to shoot and your right being able to blow a brick of rimfire ammo great, especially the fact that you don't have to reload!!! After shooting clays so much I am pretty over reloading.

Selling one of your clay guns to buy a Vudoo will be a piece of cake. Go with DI precision Vudoo with a 13 tw Muller barrel. Get a EC V2 tuner put on it when also. talk to DI precision about them. 2 of my friends have them, set up like that, they shoot great.
I have 2 Bergara B14r, Tikka T1x, CZ 455, and a Kidd Supergrade all shoot very well. I can't shoot PRS, old knees, and back, can't get up and down. But I shoot long range steel from benches.

dm250 · Oct 26, 2024

Kadams1563 said:
I have a DI 360 build. Bought it for $2k with L3I mags. Hell of a deal IMO. They come up for sale here pretty often it seems.

I’d buy another in a heartbeat. I have a lot of fun with it and it shoots great even with yellow box SK, CCI standard. I have not ventured into true match rimfire yet with center X, Eley match, or higher grade ammo yet. For shooting PRS style matches with it SK standard works great.

Wow that is one hell of a deal. Just out of curiosity where did you pick that up for a deal like that??

Kadams1563 · Oct 27, 2024

dm250 said:
Wow that is one hello of a deal. Just out of curiosity where did you pick that up for a deal like that??

Local sale. I was very surprised.

Masojoh · Oct 27, 2024

Well, if you have already written the Kidd off, I would suggest a RimX by Kenny at Desert Precision gun works with his bolt mod to allow single feeding. Or something similar from Modacam. The CZ bolt feels like a toy compared to the REM 700 bolts. Just be prepared to wait.

Having had two vudoos and two RimXs, I kept one RimX and have sold the others. Topped with a tangent theta 5-25, and it is a very competitive setup.

VFL1911 · Oct 27, 2024

Cz 457 with a Lilja barrel will shoot just as accurately and precise as any Vudoo or RimX. That has been proven on countless YouTube channels. Pursuit of Accuracy being one of the most reputable examples.

Why Vudoo or RimX? You want to be on a R700 platform for upgrades and/or using the AICS style magazines for centerfire parody in training the feel and size.

Personally unless you’re loaded with cash, I would buy a CZ 457 with a Lilja barrel and spend every last bit on high-end glass and a MDT Premier Gen chassis.

dscl · Oct 27, 2024

Vudoo or RimX - personally I don't like the RimX and would recommend Vudoo, but both are S tier.

David Lott · Oct 27, 2024

VFL1911 said:
Cz 457 with a Lilja barrel will shoot just as accurately and precise as any Vudoo or RimX. That has been proven on countless YouTube channels. Pursuit of Accuracy being one of the most reputable examples.

Why Vudoo or RimX? You want to be on a R700 platform for upgrades and/or using the AICS style magazines for centerfire parody in training the feel and size.

Personally unless you’re loaded with cash, I would buy a CZ 457 with a Lilja barrel and spend every last bit on high-end glass and a MDT Premier Gen chassis.

What's your name bud?

MarkCZ · Oct 28, 2024

The cost of a build boils down to the cost of the action. Everything else cost the same. Like the cost of a Browning 725 VS a Krieghoff K-80. Both will do the job, but which do you like better. The DI precision Vudoo is the Krieghoff.

dm250 · Oct 28, 2024

Masojoh said:
Well, if you have already written the Kidd off, I would suggest a RimX by Kenny at Desert Precision gun works with his bolt mod to allow single feeding. Or something similar from Modacam. The CZ bolt feels like a toy compared to the REM 700 bolts. Just be prepared to wait.

Having had two vudoos and two RimXs, I kept one RimX and have sold the others. Topped with a tangent theta 5-25, and it is a very competitive setup.

Well I have not written off the KIDD, its still a great gun and I have no intentions of selling it but I do like the finer things in life and though I am not in this to win a national championship I do want something that gives me that give me the best platform.

Yup Desert Precision, MCR, TS Customs, and DI are what I am looking at.

VFL1911 said:
Cz 457 with a Lilja barrel will shoot just as accurately and precise as any Vudoo or RimX. That has been proven on countless YouTube channels. Pursuit of Accuracy being one of the most reputable examples.

Why Vudoo or RimX? You want to be on a R700 platform for upgrades and/or using the AICS style magazines for centerfire parody in training the feel and size.

Personally unless you’re loaded with cash, I would buy a CZ 457 with a Lilja barrel and spend every last bit on high-end glass and a MDT Premier Gen chassis.

Not trying to be rude or start a whole new trend of budget vs. high end and yeah I am sure there are some youtubers that post stuff but that does not always mean it is true or they are selectively editing. I do agree that a CZ with a Lilja and quality match ammo can shoot amazing but I find it hard to believe that it can compare to something like a MCR built Vudoo.

MarkCZ said:
The cost of a build boils down to the cost of the action. Everything else cost the same. Like the cost of a Browning 725 VS a Krieghoff K-80. Both will do the job, but which do you like better. The DI precision Vudoo is the Krieghoff.

That's a good way to put it.

hlee · Oct 28, 2024

dm250 said:
Well I have not written off the KIDD, its still a great gun and I have no intentions of selling it but I do like the finer things in life and though I am not in this to win a national championship I do want something that gives me that give me the best platform.

Yup Desert Precision, MCR, TS Customs, and DI are what I am looking at.

Not trying to be rude or start a whole new trend of budget vs. high end and yeah I am sure there are some youtubers that post stuff but that does not always mean it is true or they are selectively editing. I do agree that a CZ with a Lilja and quality match ammo can shoot amazing but I find it hard to believe that it can compare to something like a MCR built Vudoo.

That's a good way to put it.

What I like about the Kidd is that I don’t need to run the action after every shot on wobbly, sloped, or otherwise weird props.

LuvDog · Oct 28, 2024

I bought my son a 457 Varmint, and I loved shooting it so much that I got a Tikka T1x. The Tikka got sold off quickly.

The 457 is in an XLR Element with quite a bunch of brass at the end. It shoots just about everything well. I am waiting on an L3i barrel to help it balance better and I guess we'll have to do some ammo testing to find out how picky or not picky it is about ammo.

I ended up getting a Vudoo 360 for myself. It was in a MPA BA Comp, but I could not get the 20" MTU to balance. It's now sitting in a MDT ACC Elite with a bunch of brass and it finally balances. I wish I would have gone with a 24" barrel from the beginning. So if you go with a Vudoo, don't make my mistake . Get a long fat barrel to begin with.

The 457 is just a $10 trigger spring to make it great. Of course, options are also much more limited for it. The stock plastic mags work, but reloads on the clock do take some practice.

The Vudoo is nice because it's R700 compatibility and options galore.

How do they shoot against each other? Well, I'll say that the 457 shoots everything SV well. My Vudoo is much more picky about ammo.

The last outing I did with my son, I just grabbed some random ammo and I could not keep up with him and the 457.

DownhillFromHere · Oct 28, 2024

dm250 said:
Not trying to be rude or start a whole new trend of budget vs. high end and yeah I am sure there are some youtubers that post stuff but that does not always mean it is true or they are selectively editing. I do agree that a CZ with a Lilja and quality match ammo can shoot amazing but I find it hard to believe that it can compare to something like a MCR built Vudoo.

While a good CZ-457 may well be as accurate as a Vudoo or Rim-X, it will never feel like a Vudoo or Rim-X in its operation no matter how much it's dressed up.

I ran 100s with my Beretta 687EELL back in the day; it did fine... but it didn't feel like the Kolar that replaced it. Nor did Beretta Silver Pigeons feel anything like the the K-20 my wife shot for a few years.

There's far more to choosing/owning a firearm than its raw capability of hitting what it's aimed at. Top-tier gear isn't going to make a shooter "better...." although I've seen situations where it turned mediocre shooters into assholes....

oldrifleman · Oct 28, 2024

Never could get behind a K gun ( started with 682x and ended with a MX-8) just didn’t feel right, but I was shooting wobble trap, so different games different tools! But totally right, if it doesn’t feel right it’s not going to shoot to its potential. I have chasing accuracy in the Anschutz world and finally found what I like in the AT-X with 1727 and 54:18, they finally feel right, only took 25 years

hlee · Oct 28, 2024

DownhillFromHere said:
While a good CZ-457 may well be as accurate as a Vudoo or Rim-X, it will never feel like a Vudoo or Rim-X in its operation no matter how much it's dressed up.

I ran 100s with my Beretta 687EELL back in the day; it did fine... but it didn't feel like the Kolar that replaced it. Nor did Beretta Silver Pigeons feel anything like the the K-20 my wife shot for a few years.

There's far more to choosing/owning a firearm than its raw capability of hitting what it's aimed at. Top-tier gear isn't going to make a shooter "better...." although I've seen situations where it turned mediocre shooters into assholes....

Hot take. They were always assholes.

RubiconJoey · Oct 28, 2024

Whatever you decide to get make sure you spend the money on a good chassis (or stock if you really must). The balance and ability to get your rifle to NPA is paramount to success in PRS.

dm250 · Oct 31, 2024

DownhillFromHere said:
While a good CZ-457 may well be as accurate as a Vudoo or Rim-X, it will never feel like a Vudoo or Rim-X in its operation no matter how much it's dressed up.

I ran 100s with my Beretta 687EELL back in the day; it did fine... but it didn't feel like the Kolar that replaced it. Nor did Beretta Silver Pigeons feel anything like the the K-20 my wife shot for a few years.

There's far more to choosing/owning a firearm than its raw capability of hitting what it's aimed at. Top-tier gear isn't going to make a shooter "better...." although I've seen situations where it turned mediocre shooters into assholes....

Wow a 687EELL to a Kolar, that brings back memories. That is actually the same route I went and felt the exact same. One of the early Kolar Standard Skeets was my first proper target gun (I had a mid-1xxx serial number) and later picked up a Max Skeet with a carrier barrel and tubes. Something about when you load two and feel it hinged closed the way is just click to together like a vault feels totally different. Its hard to describe its kind of one of those if you know you know situations. Its like racking the slide on a Kimber vs. a Nighthawk; two very different experiences.

Also funny you mentioned the K20. One of my dreams is a K20 Katherine Nonn engraved 20/28 two barrel set, and of course if were dreaming to go with it got to have a full size K80 matching engraving carrier barrel and tubes.

Haha yes Top Tier gear defiantly does not make a shooter better. I am a perfect example of that but unlike many I know I'm not a top tier shooter. I love my 1911's/2011's and have some high end variants but I am more than happy to tell you I am a horrible handgun shooter, I just love the build quality and craftsmanship of them. I don't know why I just never took well to practical pistol shooting I am a trigger slapping clay target shooter or I need that super relaxed and calm slow pull pull pull bang of nice crisp 5oz TT diamond.

RubiconJoey said:
Whatever you decide to get make sure you spend the money on a good chassis (or stock if you really must). The balance and ability to get your rifle to NPA is paramount to success in PRS.

Yes of course, that is a given, same with the glass. I'm a pretty big MPA fan, I have a basic 6.5 Falkor/Bartlein combo sitting in an older BA comp chassis and I was very very happy with it but I really like the new matrix pro 2. Would love to see one in person.

DownhillFromHere · Oct 31, 2024

I'll say this right up front: this long post is about SHOTGUNS - but its tie to the thread is the service that goes with top-tier firearms.

dm250 said:
Wow a 687EELL to a Kolar, that brings back memories. That is actually the same route I went and felt the exact same. One of the early Kolar Standard Skeets was my first proper target gun (I had a mid-1xxx serial number) and later picked up a Max Skeet with a carrier barrel and tubes.

My Kolar serial is 002xx. My understanding is the initial "in the wild" production run started at 00200 or -01. I had a business trip to Dallas and met Robert Paxton there. Fondled Krieghoffs and his Kolar demo gun - Kolar had just become available. As you may know, Kolar and Krieghoff feel VERY different. Krieghoff was/is a well-refined thoroughbred; Kolar was/is a massive overbuilt tank, equally refined but... different. Spend much time with a Kolar, pick up a Krieghoff and the latter's trigger feels like a skinny little nub. Even the Kolar's firing pin looks like a relative brute (somehow I ended up with an extra one). The early Kolars got very nice wood and different engraving from later production runs. Anyway... Paxton sent me off to Dallas Gun Club with that demo, where I met his wife Mary and shot a few rounds. My new Kolar arrived in NC a few days later. Life memory.
----

Here's another thing about top-tier firearms as opposed to the "merely good" ones: service. As I've written repeatedly: Your Vudoo won't shoot, you get somebody on the phone Right Now and they'll have you return the rifle. Zermatt/RimX won't troubleshoot the whole rifle but you'll get Ray on the phone pdq for guidance. Your CZ pukes a firing pin? Who ya gonna call? Your Tikka T1X barfs an ejector? Yeah, search my history for Tikka and Beretta for insight to Beretta service.
(Edit: well, for obvious mechanical issies like firing pins or ejectors, the best thing is to go to a skilled local smith... if one is available and can get parts.)

Krieghoff is, or at least was, similar to Kolar/Vudoo/Zermatt. I shot a few times with a guy whose first Krieghoff was a K-32 (which was replaced by the K-80 in 1980). He had its innards updated with K-80 parts where feasible. He called Krieghoff's US headquarters to ask about stock replacements. They sent him three different stocks to try and he was to send back whichever three he didn't keep.
***

The first time I shot my new Kolar in near-freezing cold, I experienced misfires and light primer strikes. Wha....? Call Kolar Monday morning. Within seconds, I had the gun's designer on the phone. He told me exactly what the issue was (cold-stiffened grease in the cocking rods' channels) and how to correct it. Over that first year, Keith and I had several conversations. He was very interested in feedback about his creation.

dm250 said:
One of my dreams is a K20 Katherine Nonn engraved 20/28 two barrel set, and of course if were dreaming to go with it got to have a full size K80 matching engraving carrier barrel and tubes.

I mentioned my wife's K-20. Well, yes, it was a -20. Full disclosure, it was a Gold Super Scroll 3-barrel set. Great beginner gun, right? Here's that story.

When my wife started shooting, I set her up with a level-4 instructor and got the heck out of the way. Then I set up an appointment with a nationally-known Krieghoff distributor and master gunsmith a few hours' drive from us. Over the course of a few hours, she handled and messed with quite a few shotguns, but she kept coming back to that K-20. She had no idea what it was.

I already knew all about it... Ernie had told me on the phone it was a nearly-new safe queen whose owner finally decided to part with it. Was it cheap? Uh, no. Was it priced way less than new? Yes. When my wife finally looked at the tag on the case handle, she jumped back like it was a snake. I explained that it was a very good buy.

She shot that gun for a couple of years, then decided skeet wasn't her thing. I shot it a few times... it handled like a go-kart compared to the Kolar's mass. Recoil was surprisingly mild for a sub-8-pound shotgun - testament to stock design.
-----------

Again, the point of all this is the service I've enjoyed with investing in top-tier firearms... as well as recalling very pleasantr memories from decades gone by. In many of the best times of my life, shotguns were there.

LuckyDuck · Oct 31, 2024

@dm250

In all honesty- and I know this is a pit of vipers when it comes to protecting your wallet but, given what you've shared I'd have to agree with others, it might sound contrary but I'd just go ahead and buy a Vudoo. Check that box and know you've got a good rig and then allow your head to spin with optic options.

But mainly- just buy the Vudoo man.

-LD

TheOE800 · Oct 31, 2024

This thread made me buy a Vudoo with a Bartlein and I wasn’t even shopping for a new rimfire rifle.

LR1845 · Oct 31, 2024

TheOE800 said:
This thread made me buy a Vudoo with a Bartlein and I wasn’t even shopping for a new rimfire rifle.

That’s usually when I end up with most of the stuff I buy….when I’m not looking/shopping.

SoftCookie · Oct 31, 2024

Just get the Vudoo because anything else just won't scratch the itch.

Dead Eye Dick · Nov 2, 2024

SoftCookie said:
Just get the Vudoo because anything else just won't scratch the itch.

I kept putting money back and everytime I was ready to spend the bucks to get a Bergara something more important would come up. And our son’s B14r looks nice, but I got a windfall last winter and since I always really wanted a Vudoo….

Kadams1563 · Nov 2, 2024

Just got two 24” straight tube Vudoo 360’s in for a buddy and he called and said that they both shoot great.

He’s shooting rebar hangers at 100 yards consistently with bulk ammo.

Hasn’t got into even SK standard or match ammo yet. He is impressed with them both.

LR1845 · Nov 2, 2024

Kadams1563 said:
Just got two 24” straight tube Vudoo 360’s in for a buddy and he called and said that they both shoot great.

He’s shooting rebar hangers at 100 yards consistently with bulk ammo.

Hasn’t got into even SK standard or match ammo yet. He is impressed with them both.

What barrels?

Kadams1563 · Nov 3, 2024

LR1845 said:
What barrels?

Bartlien “I believe” that’s what they use for the straights but honestly I have no idea lol.

I have another Vudoo with a Bartlien Kukri and it shoots great as well I just wish I would have got a much heavier and longer barrel when I bought that one.

LR1845 · Nov 3, 2024

Kadams1563 said:
Bartlien “I believe” that’s what they use for the straights but honestly I have no idea lol.

I have another Vudoo with a Bartlien Kukri and it shoots great as well I just wish I would have got a much heavier and longer barrel when I bought that one.

I think they have a B stamped in them if its Bartlien, I thought I read that here on the site...I've had 2 Bartlien barreled Vudoos and they both shot great. I have a 1.25" Bartlien on order hoping to see it in February it will be going on a RimX action.

TheOE800 · Nov 24, 2024

TheOE800 said:
This thread made me buy a Vudoo with a Bartlein and I wasn’t even shopping for a new rimfire rifle.

I don’t shoot RF much, but I am VERY happy with my Bartlein-barreled Vudoo I picked up from @NPS.

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