How to improve offhand accuracy with AR15

Fatorangecat · Oct 28, 2024

I have spent a lot of time shooting an AR from a bipod and with good ammo and a VSeven barrel the rifle will quite literally stack rounds. Off hand I struggle to keep a tight group. What is a realistic expectation for 5rds at 100 yards off hand? And what do you do to improve? How do you grip the rifle? I find that if I use my sling to tighten up or try to firmly drive the rifle my sight picture is really shaky and groups open up. I shoot better groups if I gently cradle the rifle but have slower follow up shots. So I guess I have three questions for anyone willing to share some advice.

1. What is a realistic expectation for group size to consistently shoot at 100 yards?
2. How do you hold the rifle?
3. What drills or traiing have helped you improve?

papershredder · Oct 28, 2024

Practice, practice, practice. Tightening up muscles will make you shaky, the trick is to get comfortable, as you're starting to notice. You'll always have a wobble, no way to completely get rid of that, you'll just have to learn your wobble zone and how to time your shots. If you're shooting 4" groups offhand at a hundred, you're doing pretty good actually. IIRC, the xring for the 200yd Service Rifle target is 3". The C-clamp grip is not for distance or shooting for groups. Look to techniques used in Service Rifle/High Power Match Rifle competitions for offhand accuracy.

Here's a good starting place if you like reading books.

And here's an interview with a former Olympic shooter divided into three videos that is packed full of tips, well worth the watch and there's a quite a few other videos on youtube that go into detail on using the leather sling if you search around. If you pay attention to the vids below, you'll notice in Dan isn't even using the sling.

sinister · Oct 28, 2024

The sling is not used in international air or rimfire competition, in Conseil Internationale du Sport Militaire military rifle shooting, nor in Service Rifle.

It takes a good firing position and lots of practice. It sounds counter-intuitive, but a heavier rifle helps prevent rifle movement and sway.

smoothy8500 · Oct 28, 2024

A lot of dry-fire practice is the key. Yes, there's wobble, but as you learn to control the rifle, the wobble diminishes. Another key is maintaining a "sight focus" on the crosshair or dot of your scope. You will develop the subconscious coordination of the eye and trigger finger to fire as the crosshair swings into the center of the target.

Once you get that subconscious control you can then learn to control the recoil. The AR is a little easier, the M14's .308 recoil takes a little extra control.

Bullet's just exited the muzzle and I'm still maintaining focus on the front sight, on the target. That's a key aspect of follow-through.

smoothy8500 · Oct 28, 2024

I will admit that the Highpower offhand position is not optimum for other shooting sports such as practical carbine or some other "run-n-gun" shooting. But, the fundamentals of "sight focus" and dry-fire practice to reduce your wobble zone are universal to any shooting sport.

papershredder · Oct 28, 2024

In the last vid Sinister linked, Steven points to a distinction between natural point of aim and firing position. Understanding natural point of aim is a major key in every shooting discipline. If your natural point of aim is on target, wobble is less of a problem. The vids I posted, Dan gives tips on stance adjustments to establish and maintain natural point of aim.

Fatorangecat · Oct 28, 2024

I genuinely appreciate the feedback. I will work through all the videos and order the suggested reading and work from there. I have been working at 100 yards on a 6” plate but I think I’m really over muscling everything. I feel like I’m racing to break the trigger before muscle fatigue turns into a shaky sight picture.

smoothy8500 · Oct 28, 2024

Fatorangecat said:
working at 100 yards on a 6” plate

That's pretty good if your keeping close to that at 100 yds. Our offhand NRA targets at 200 yards is 11-1/2" so it's about the same size MOA.

sinister · Oct 28, 2024

This is the 200-yard standing slow fire and sitting rapid fire target scaled for 100-yard ranges. It is 21" x 21" a side.

Put ten shots in ten minutes in the black (about the size of those 6" paper plates) at 100 yards and you've shot a 90 -- an expert score.

It is challenging but NOT impossible. It's a Springfield, M1, M14, or M16 (not a benchrest gun) and you're standing.

When I shot on the Army Team the biggest thing that helped me develop fast (besides dry-firing) was being coached to repeat to myself every time I dry-fired, practiced, or shot a match -- "I LOVE Standing."

Everyone else hates or tolerates it. Matches are won at 200 and lost at 600. I had a good day if I shot a 94. I had a GREAT day if I bested 96.

I had a heavy fall and early winter dry-firing regimen every night at the end of 2002. I volunteered for and deployed forward in a joint special operations task force for the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003. The war started and I returned to the states in early summer to take command. I went to Camp Perry in July and shot 20th in the President's Rifle Match with a 99 standing, a 95 at 300 (two clicks high), and a 99 at 600.

It had taken me four years from starting highpower in 1999 (shooting on one day a weekend as my wife was working) to Distinguished Rifleman (in 2002) and the President's Hundred in 2003.

Fatorangecat · Oct 29, 2024

sinister said:
This is the 200-yard standing slow fire and sitting rapid fire target scaled for 100-yard ranges. It is 21" x 21" a side.

View attachment 8534244

Put ten shots in ten minutes in the black (about the size of those 6" paper plates) at 100 yards and you've shot a 90 -- an expert score.

It is challenging but NOT impossible. It's a Springfield, M1, M14, or M16 (not a benchrest gun) and you're standing.

When I shot on the Army Team the biggest thing that helped me develop fast (besides dry-firing) was being coached to repeat to myself every time I dry-fired, practiced, or shot a match -- "I LOVE Standing."

Everyone else hates or tolerates it. Matches are won at 200 and lost at 600. I had a good day if I shot a 94. I had a GREAT day if I bested 96.

I had a heavy fall and early winter dry-firing regimen every night at the end of 2002. I volunteered for and deployed forward in a joint special operations task force for the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003. The war started and I returned to the states in early summer to take command. I went to Camp Perry in July and shot 20th in the President's Rifle Match with a 99 standing, a 95 at 300 (two clicks high), and a 99 at 600.

It had taken me four years from starting highpower in 1999 (shooting on one day a weekend as my wife was working) to Distinguished Rifleman (in 2002) and the President's Hundred in 2003.

Thank you for the comparison. I just found some of these targets online and ordered a few.

MrSmith · Oct 29, 2024

Two things that helped me, in addition to the excellent advice posted above, was more running as part of your physical training and stretching just before going to the line.

I didn't look at the videos posted but I'm sure Natural Point Of Aim (NPOA) is included somewhere. Major important! Also, you have a time limit that NPOA works, after that your body begins to wobble. The running and stretching increases this time.

Thank you,
MrSmith

diggler1833 · Oct 29, 2024

I used to think I was a decent offhand shooter. I would generally allow myself to drop 2 points at the 200 offhand during qualification in the known distance course of fire before I would start getting irritated (and I got irritated more than once).

Then I got a chance to compete in a few National-level matches, including the Interservice Rifle Matches against the USAMU and USMC rifle teams (and some fantastic Guard and Navy Units). Typically, I would shoot between 185 - 190 in the 200 yard offhand individual matches...which is only about 10-15 points less than whoever ended up winning the match would shoot.

In 2001, I do remember that the guy who won it (open sights) shot a 199 with at least 10Xs. I pulled his target. He shot a 995 across the course (1000 possible). I might have shot a 186 or so at the 200, which put me in the bottom half (and that is where I stayed).

Much respect to the positional shooting skills of the distinguished marksmen. Those gentlemen had skills beyond anything I've ever had.

********

In regards as to how you get better: I got better when I became a member of the 2D MARDIV MTU (Markmanship Training Unit). The reason why I got better is because 1) I had 3 other PMIs standing there and critiquing everything I was doing, as I was doing it. Then you had 2) the extra ammo I was getting to shoot...Nothing beats good practice for improving skills. Shooting positionally is extremely perishable. I know...I suck now.

*Lately, I've got to where I've recorded myself shooting and started critiquing my own applications of fundamentals. It is really about the best thing that you can do if you are by yourself, or have no skilled shooters to hang around with IMO.

jthor · Oct 29, 2024

papershredder said:
Practice, practice, practice. Tightening up muscles will make you shaky, the trick is to get comfortable, as you're starting to notice. You'll always have a wobble, no way to completely get rid of that, you'll just have to learn your wobble zone and how to time your shots. If you're shooting 4" groups offhand at a hundred, you're doing pretty good actually. IIRC, the xring for the 200yd Service Rifle target is 3". The C-clamp grip is not for distance or shooting for groups. Look to techniques used in Service Rifle/High Power Match Rifle competitions for offhand accuracy.

Here's a good starting place if you like reading books.

And here's an interview with a former Olympic shooter divided into three videos that is packed full of tips, well worth the watch and there's a quite a few other videos on youtube that go into detail on using the leather sling if you search around. If you pay attention to the vids below, you'll notice in Dan isn't even using the sling.

The man, the myth, the legend, and good friend Dan Lowe. Great dude.

Most important part of off hand shooting is NPA and using as much bone structure as you can. Shoot relaxed
There are several different hand techniques to hold the rifle most common is reverse grip or placing the rifle on your fist. I choose the fist grip because it is a world of difference for me and my scores reflect that.

cramfarm · Sunday at 11:19 AM

The first highpower match I attended was a 100 shot offhand match and I watched the other shooters and thought they were from another planet because certianly normal humans could not shoot 10's at 200 yds repetitively but the key is having the desire to improve and then practice a lot and to be able to recognise items in your stance that give better results. I found that the amount of pressure or tension in your hold makes for a slower moving rifle. after probably 10,000 rnds standing I got reasonably good at standing, would typically shoot a 194 or so out of 200, once at a big match I shot a 199 but the last shot I was so nervous it was luck that it turned out to be a 10. Dry fire at home is a great help as you can see what happens after the trigger is pulled. bone support as much as possible. It's also handy to not get old because that seems to make me a lot less steady standing which is a great dissapointment in my life. my normal practice routine years ago when I could shoot standing fairly well was shoot 40 shots that way I would not sych myself out on shot 20. I think a person does need to concentrate on being relaxed and practice trying different tensions in your grips mostly practice

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How to improve offhand accuracy with AR15

Fatorangecat

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papershredder

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sinister

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smoothy8500

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papershredder

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Fatorangecat

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smoothy8500

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sinister

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Fatorangecat

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MrSmith

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diggler1833

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jthor

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