Load development is a myth?

morganlamprecht · Nov 19, 2024

Yea the 108 is great

I’ve done the same with more bullets than I can probably remember in other Calibers also…but all ones that have a proven track record for consistency/performance in Berger/hornady/sierra brands mainly

You’re the first person I’ve met who calls that load development though lol everyone else tells me that won’t work for them and they can’t be accurate that way

The semantics does cause a lot of confusion

JR1200W3 · Nov 20, 2024

morganlamprecht said:
Yea the 108 is great

I’ve done the same with more bullets than I can probably remember in other Calibers also…but all ones that have a proven track record for consistency/performance in Berger/hornady/sierra brands mainly

You’re the first person I’ve met who calls that load development though lol everyone else tells me that won’t work for them and they can’t be accurate that way

The semantics does cause a lot of confusion

You had a goal. Tested the components to calibrate the amount of ingredients. Crafted the recipe to achieve it. And then proofed it. If it didn't meet your goal, you would have made a change. That has always been load development. People do a lot of different things to the same tune. Yes, there are some mislead ideas out there. But the basic process is the same.

morganlamprecht · Nov 20, 2024

JR1200W3 said:
And then proofed it. If it didn't meet your goal, you would have made a change. That has always been load development.

as long as its understood the change would have occurred after the 12 round composite string/group where i never fired the load i settled on and would have been component changes ( i dont want anyone reading this later and taking interpretation liberties with the intent)

the return trip with 20 rounds of 41.5 was just for zero/chrono for a load i hadnt shot in a barrel still speeding up/breaking in

wade2big · Nov 20, 2024

It seems much of the back and forth is how “load development” is defined. Why not agree for the sake of argument that “load development” is handloading with any intentions of making a change if a desired outcome isn’t met regardless if a change is realized or not.

Once a definition is agreed upon, the argument is now on the depth of the process, what matters/what don’t, and not the definition of a word(s).

Snuby642 · Nov 20, 2024

memilanuk said:
but at the end of the day... bad shots can go 'into' the group as well as 'out'. We just don't usually recognize them as such

I'd like to spend all day accidentally dropping bullets into the center of groups.

My luck enhancement protocol.

Since some folks say load development is useless, and or based on luck of breaking the shot, I changed things.

I do lucky charge weights in 0.3g increments and pick the luckiest one. Then to see if I can get any luckier I bracket that in 0.1g incraments.

Sometimes I get to feeling lucky and mess with seating depth tests and or crank around on my lucky EC rabbits foot and tuner on the muzzle.

I'm a lucky guy

LR1845 · Nov 20, 2024

Snuby642 said:
I'd like to spend all day accidentally dropping bullets into the center of groups.

My luck enhancement protocol.

Since some folks say load development is useless, and or based on luck of breaking the shot, I changed things.

I do lucky charge weights in 0.3g increments and pick the luckiest one. Then to see if I can get any luckier I bracket that in 0.1g incraments.

Sometimes I get to feeling lucky and mess with seating depth tests and or crank around on my lucky EC rabbits foot and tuner on the muzzle.

I'm a lucky guy

I wish you lived in Nevada I’d take your lucky ass gambling and we’d retire with all that luck.

Snuby642 · Nov 20, 2024

Nevada: 10 -12+ hr shifts 7 - 45 days at a time.

Not much time for anything but work eat sleep.
Wring the cash out of the cow and haul ass before the bull shit gets it back.

tickets a car and per diem maybe Wednesday night local 7 card game.

sirhrmechanic · Nov 20, 2024

XP1K said:
Speaking of a vacuum, I've heard of people pulling a vacuum on powder before loading it to pull moisture out of it. What kind of effect would this have on es/sd ?

That’s a new one on me!!!! Pulling a vacuum on powder??

Can you send a link or article? Because it sounds
Like complete voodoo to me!

Then again there are folks who take a box lot of 5,000 match bullets and weigh each one to a 10th of a grain and only use the ones they weigh the same….

So there is some weird stuff that us crazy handloaders get up to!!

Cheers, Sirhr

PS. I did try that bullet weighing thing back c. 2009 when it was a “big thing” here on SH. I didn’t find that weighing bullets and only using the ones that were the same weight to 1/10 grain… made any difference at all! But what the heck, it was worth trying once and, hey, maybe it does work and I just don’t shoots dat gooder.

kthomas · Nov 20, 2024

Huskydriver said:
What about tuners and structured barrels?

I'll show myself out

XP1K · Nov 20, 2024

sirhrmechanic said:
That’s a new one on me!!!! Pulling a vacuum on powder??

Can you send a link or article? Because it sounds
Like complete voodoo to me!

Then again there are folks who take a box lot of 5,000 match bullets and weigh each one to a 10th of a grain and only use the ones they weigh the same….

So there is some weird stuff that us crazy handloaders get up to!!

Cheers, Sirhr

PS. I did try that bullet weighing thing back c. 2009 when it was a “big thing” here on SH. I didn’t find that weighing bullets and only using the ones that were the same weight to 1/10 grain… made any difference at all! But what the heck, it was worth trying once and, hey, maybe it does work and I just don’t shoots dat gooder.

I'd like to read some on it myself. I actually only heard about it from one of my cousins that doesn't even shoot long range or reload at all.
That's why I asked here if anyone had ever heard of it.

Where I'm at on the gulf coast the humidity is usually 90% or better here most of the year so I thought maybe there would be some merit to it.

I don't know that I've ever a a humidity related issue with reloading but maybe I need to try this to satisfy my curiosity. I could always use something else to help drive me crazy.

LR1845 · Nov 21, 2024

Snuby642 said:
Nevada: 10 -12+ hr shifts 7 - 45 days at a time.

Not much time for anything but work eat sleep.
Wring the cash out of the cow and haul ass before the bull shit gets it back.

tickets a car and per diem maybe Wednesday night local 7 card game.

LOL!! I feel ya, I've been doing the 10-16 hour 5-6 day for almost 21 yrs now.

morganlamprecht · Nov 21, 2024

XP1K said:
I'd like to read some on it myself. I actually only heard about it from one of my cousins that doesn't even shoot long range or reload at all.
That's why I asked here if anyone had ever heard of it.

Where I'm at on the gulf coast the humidity is usually 90% or better here most of the year so I thought maybe there would be some merit to it.

I don't know that I've ever a a humidity related issue with reloading but maybe I need to try this to satisfy my curiosity. I could always use something else to help drive me crazy.

for your curiosity...i'm also on the gulf coast (Corpus Christi)

notes: my garage at the time was tied with my central A/C, but not independently controlled...i should have noted the actual temp/humidity at the time, but i didnt...i was just checking to see if i saw any difference

"Left in Hopper" = left in hopper w/ lid on
"Left Open" = left in bowl, uncovered

the pre/post test standard load samples were the load i always ran, so i only fired 3 and 3 for this, but i already knew the average velocity of that load was around 3000fps...scale was checked with check weight between each powder string charges were thrown

the "left open in garage" velocity was significant IMO
groups were basically a wash

my suspicion is the powder left in hopper covered would have crept down in velocity over time, 3 days, just wasnt long enough to see a larger change

JR1200W3 · Nov 21, 2024

Meanwhile....

Post in thread 'AR Positional POI Shift Test' https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/ar-positional-poi-shift-test.7221976/post-11873658

People trying to derive a half minute zero shift with large 3rd groups. Thinking they're identifying handguard shift in an AR while purposely shifting the way they run the gun

ReaperDriver · Dec 9, 2024

For all of you who have said you "load to a velocity", how do you pick the desired velocity you are shooting for?? Is it max velocity without pressure? Is it some mid range velocity? Or is it "I've heard many shooters like 2950 with 6mm CM, so that's what I'm going to pick"?

Its not a trick question..... I'm sorta in that mindset myself. I'm just trying to figure out how you decide on the velocity number you're aiming for.

DM1975 · Dec 9, 2024

ReaperDriver said:
For all of you who have said you "load to a velocity", how do you pick the desired velocity you are shooting for?? Is it max velocity without pressure? Is it some mid range velocity? Or is it "I've heard many shooters like 2950 with 6mm CM, so that's what I'm going to pick"?

Its not a trick question..... I'm sorta in that mindset myself. I'm just trying to figure out how you decide on the velocity number you're aiming for.

I work up till I see pressure signs and then drop back a half a grain. If it shoots well then that’s my velocity.

CK1.0 · Dec 9, 2024

ReaperDriver said:
For all of you who have said you "load to a velocity", how do you pick the desired velocity you are shooting for?? Is it max velocity without pressure? Is it some mid range velocity? Or is it "I've heard many shooters like 2950 with 6mm CM, so that's what I'm going to pick"?

Its not a trick question..... I'm sorta in that mindset myself. I'm just trying to figure out how you decide on the velocity number you're aiming for.

I’m a bit of a weirdo in that I like to go as slow as I can get away with while still reliably getting 5 shot groups at 100 yards where all the holes touch and SDs in the 5-7 range over 20 shots. I want a softer shooting gun and as much TOF as I can get so I can more easily spot which way plates rock (with brass that lasts forever as a bonus). For me, with 6GT, that has me in the 2800-2850fps range.

Doom · Dec 11, 2024

CK1.0 said:
I’m a bit of a weirdo in that I like to go as slow as I can get away with while still reliably getting 5 shot groups at 100 yards where all the holes touch and SDs in the 5-7 range over 20 shots. I want a softer shooting gun and as much TOF as I can get so I can more easily spot which way plates rock (with brass that lasts forever as a bonus). For me, with 6GT, that has me in the 2800-2850fps range.

Actually I don't see that as weird in the least. Regardless of why we are shooting the ultimate measure of success is the target. As much as we may like to think we can handle anything that is not the case. Recoil and its management is part of the accuracy equation. Some of us just can't manage it as well as other, be it mental or physical. Recreational shooting shouldn't be painful or taxing, unless of course the shooter is a masochist.

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Load development is a myth?

Load development is a myth?

1. Any form of load development to "tune" accuracy is a myth.

2. Only certain gross changes can change accuracy

3. Some forms are legitimate, as long as the sample size is large enough

4. All options are on the table, but sample size

5. Sample size isn't always required, but there are some quack methods out there

6. There is absolutely merit to OCWs and round robins.

7. I still think velocity flat spots and accuracy nodes exist

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