Read it. Understand it. You will have proof for yourself. No one will have to spoon feed it to you.
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Load development or not?
- Thread starter smokinbobf4
- Start date
Read it. Understand it. You will have proof for yourself. No one will have to spoon feed it to you.
I have proof. I put it in the group. Of actual shooting. No one else seems to be capable of that…..
Does anybody have a "known good" load for a 155 in a 308 ?
@Maurygold you said you shoot a 300winmag, I've got Norma brass, H1k, Fed. 215m's and 215 hybrids, give me a known good one. Trued 700 with a 26" bartlein heavy Palma. Throated to run a 215 right at the neck shoulder junction. I'd have to double check max oal but going off memory I think it was 3.715"ish.
Pictures so you don't think I'm bulling you.
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Apparently my wife shoots it better than I do. Low right group is her first ever attempt at 1,000 (1,060 technically) with this rifle. 215 hybrids, and that mediocre magpro. 12x20 target.
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I don’t shoot Norma brass and would pick lapua over it. But that said. The hybrid almost always shoots at 30’ jump and book max of 78.0 h1000. If that’s not humming I’d go to the middle node of 75.0 gn h1k.
Since you understand stats better than me you’re shooting better groups than me too….. right?
Ok. I understand. If you didn't understand why that wasn't proof. Don't waste 9 dollars on a statistics book. A coloring book might be more your speed. Crayons only. We don't want you injuring yourself with a sharp colored pencil or something.
Ok. I understand. If you didn't understand why that wasn't proof. Don't waste 9 dollars on a statistics book. A coloring book might be more your speed. Crayons only. We don't want you injuring yourself with a sharp colored pencil or something.
All these insults and clearly I’m better at reloading than you. What does that say about you……..
With 4.4sd I’m not sure how you think I’m wasting time.
All I did was ask for proof that what you’re doing is better and you guys have personally insulted my intelligence on nearly every post. Yet here I am the only one who provided an ounce of proof
All you're proving is that you don't understand what any of us are trying to tell you, which is that you could pick another safe charge at random and it would probably show a similar ES & SD over 20-30 shots.
And for the record, saying you have a lack of understanding about something isn't the same as saying you're unintelligent.
The graphs you've posted only prove your gun and ammo are shooting at a consistent velocity (proof of a well built rifle, good components, and a solid ammo production method). It does not prove that your chrono ladder method selected the single best charge weight and that all others would show a larger spread in velocity.
More samples, straighter line. I think there was a caveat about once you’re pushing past max pressures you may see some flattening but I have neither the pressure test equipment nor the stones to go load 80k psi loads for funsies.
No it won’t and you have nothing but speculation to support that, I’ve actually shots thousands of rounds and you don’t consistently get sd under 8 by selecting random loads. If that were true you and the other turkey would be showing me a half dozen groups better than mine.
So I’m just an idiot who is better at building rifles, selecting components and building ammo… but not understanding the concepts of those??
There are flat spots it is not a flat sloping curve and litz also says using 5 shot groups at 100 is a waste of time. Cortina and f class John are both using ladder testing.
Seriously, anyone ever shooting with you?
You must be an absolute pleasure to be around…
All the time but they’re actually high level shooters that understand reloading and don’t insult my intelligence when I show up with some crazy good ammo.
Why are you quoting me? Did the image not load for you?
I truly do not care what your favorite youtubers are using. Or what you're doing, for that matter.
You are making good reloads despite your reloading method, not because of it.
Pretty easy to make good ammo these days with good quality components and reloading gear.
If you think your ladders are finding any velocity "nodes", load up multiple identical ladders and then get back to us on where that "node" is...
Another way to test your "nodes" is to load up some ammo within your "node", and then load up ammo at a random charge weight, or better yet, one that appears to be in an "anti-node".
Shoot both over a chrono, over multiple days. Report back on how well the "node" held up versus the other ammo.
Shoot both over a chrono, over multiple days. Report back on how well the "node" held up versus the other ammo.
@Maurygold what everyone is telling you is true, basically you have been able to make good ammo in spite of your testing, not because of it.
I used to believe the same things you do, until I started playing around more and realized it made less difference than I thought.
Honestly the fact that you think the velocity flat spots or "nodes" are repeatable shows how little testing you have done.
I used to believe the same things you do, until I started playing around more and realized it made less difference than I thought.
Honestly the fact that you think the velocity flat spots or "nodes" are repeatable shows how little testing you have done.
I'm following you guys:
1. are you suggesting that through load development, I could reduce my sd/es even further? If so, through what process, since you guys think the ladder test is BS. (litz is pretty anti- group sampling at 100 or 200 yards so I'm pretty interested)
2. Are you suggesting that any other arbitrary load would result in a similar <8sd? (same components & length - different powder load) IF this is the case what process do you use for load development or do you? (if you tell me no load development and just pick a random powder load I am going to want to see some chronos)
1. are you suggesting that through load development, I could reduce my sd/es even further? If so, through what process, since you guys think the ladder test is BS. (litz is pretty anti- group sampling at 100 or 200 yards so I'm pretty interested)
2. Are you suggesting that any other arbitrary load would result in a similar <8sd? (same components & length - different powder load) IF this is the case what process do you use for load development or do you? (if you tell me no load development and just pick a random powder load I am going to want to see some chronos)
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Hornady and Applied Ballistics both have podcast episodes on this exact subject, that cover the topic in much more detail then any one individual post here could. I would start there.
I would also start with doing the tests I suggested above, to really see if those "nodes" actually exist.
Ladders are great for finding approximate velocity per charge weight, and pressure. Not so much for nodes.
I've listened to them - don't cop out here. Instead of a ladder test, should I:
1. pick a random powder load
2. some form of load development.
And yes, you can get sub 8 fps SD without an elaborate reloading process.
I'm at the point now where I use a charge weight to the nearest half grain (0.5) that gets the approximate velocity that I want. For example, I now just use charge weights like 40.0 or 41.5, rather than say 41.3.
I realize how little it matters, and my brain likes half charges more then random increments.
I'm at the point now where I use a charge weight to the nearest half grain (0.5) that gets the approximate velocity that I want. For example, I now just use charge weights like 40.0 or 41.5, rather than say 41.3.
I realize how little it matters, and my brain likes half charges more then random increments.
Not necessarily, but possibly. some charges will shoot better than others, definitely. I do think the way you are doing it helps weed out the garbage. But more than likely there are several charges that you skipped over that shoot just as well as your load.
If it's a new cartridge I will usually shoot a ladder just to find pressure with the combo I am planning to run. Then I will basically just choose what velocity range I want to be in, there's usually a couple grains of powder here to play with. I will load up 10 of each, .5-1gr apart and shoot them into groups using a chrono. I will look at group size and SD, one might be better or worse one way or another, they might be all the same or very similar, at this point you can basically pick one, or maybe you wanna split the difference on a charge weight. If I think the groups could be tighter I will play with seating depth a bit but typically I am satisfied, when doing seating depth I do big jumps .010-.030 and see if there is any change.
sometimes I choose a charge weight because I like that number better.
Use a powder charge that gets you the velocity you want.
Make sure you use good quality components, good reloading gear and are using a repeatable process.
For example, you can easily develop a sub 8 fps SD load for 6.5 Creedmoor doing the following:
- Lapua brass and CCI BR4 primers
- 41.5 grains H4350 (or 41.0, or 42.0 or 41.3, etc(
- Berger 140 hybrids, loaded ~20 thou off the lands
The above should be sub 8 SD no problem.
It can literally be this simple with good quality components and a powder suited to the cartridge.
*within reason of course
I thought he was bragging about an 8 ES.
8 SD isn't anything special.
any rhyme or season to picking a velocity? just pick the fastest without pressure issues? that's what's best statistically from a dispersion perspective.
so you guys with a random powder charge - let's see some chronos. If it truly doesn't matter, then I expect you have plenty of SD groups under 8 you can share. I'm not being a hater I just want proof this is working to a high degree for you guys - I shared how it is working for me.
no whining about setups either - I'm shooting an 18" carbon fiber barrel w/ a suppressor
I'm showing proof of what I'm doing. I also posted a group at 4.4 SD. I'm consistently and regularly shooting under 8SD - that is much different than bragging about some single outlier group of 8.
Velocity is more or less about finding a decent speed without being in or close to pressure. Other than that, there isn't really any secrets to it.
For 6.5 Creedmoor and 140's, I aim for about 2800 fps. 123 scenars in my hunting rifle about 2850 fps. 220 LRHT's in my .300NM, about 2930-2950 fps.
Those loads produce good ballistics without being in or too close to pressure. But there's also nothing special about those chosen velocities either.
I don't have chrono pictures as I write all my magnetospeed data in my logbook.
But you should just try it. Ignore any "nodes", and pick a speed that you want. Load up ammo with the charge weight that gives you that velocity. I bet your SD's will be very similar to your load that's in a "node".
That is a significantly more honorable answer than others who insulted me and slithered off after asking for proof.
I may try it, but ultimately, my method is working to a high degree, and I am not suggesting some crazy, long-firing schedule to arrive at it either. I think it is better than picking some random number; I just don't know about that...... but I may try it sometime.
For those curious, I don't: mandrel, moly, anneal, turn necks, or touch primer pockets. I am a big proponent of KISS and it works.
You know, not gonna lie, the 45gr charge of varget that was randomly reccomended to me Saturday did pretty good. I loaded fifty virgin formed cases with whatever factory primer was in them and twenty once fired, full length sized and trimmed, with br2's. And for a 25 shot string, the factory primed virgin cases shot an sd of 9.3.
To form them, first pass I used a Wilson 7mm expander. Then, lubed with imperial case wax, I crammed them straight into hornady full length die, then trimmed to 2.010"
Short stint in the case cleaner with rice, load and shoot.
Initially, on Saturday, a five shot string with the br2 shot an sd of 10.3. The next twenty I shot at 600 yesterday were doing better than the factory primer, but I lost that data due to the Garmin wigging out. I think I recorded six shots on paper out of a 15 shot string. I don't have that info in front of me at the moment.
I'll give your random reccomendation for the winmag a try and report back.
I've kind of given up on the ladder thing myself lately. I load up to a pressure I'm willing to tolerate or a velocity I'm happy with and if it shoots, great, if not, I switch bullets. Or if I'm really determined to use that bullet, I'll play with seating depth.
I just got an E.C. tuner brake so my days of seating depth may be done as well. Eeeehhh that ought to start a fight.
I'll get some chrono data next time I am out, I recently sold off my LR and picked up a Garmin, haven't even used it yet.
Next time you are loading try adjusting your charge to the closest whole number and compare it to the load you currently shoot, obviously gonna have to shoot a few groups of each.
FWIW I do think those small powder adjustments are capable of making a difference in group size but it's almost impossible for the average shooter (or even above average) to distinguish with any certainty due to natural dispersion and needing such a volume of shots.
Next time you are loading try adjusting your charge to the closest whole number and compare it to the load you currently shoot, obviously gonna have to shoot a few groups of each.
FWIW I do think those small powder adjustments are capable of making a difference in group size but it's almost impossible for the average shooter (or even above average) to distinguish with any certainty due to natural dispersion and needing such a volume of shots.
Random load behind a .30 cal Lapua Scenar 155gr in a Lapua case with S&B primer.
I just got my Garmin a couple weeks ago. My LR bit the dirt. I think a friend's 338 edge may have had something to do with that.
My uh oh with the Garmin yesterday came when I ended the session and hit the back button to go review the session. It flashed the warmup screen, which never happened previously, and when it did that it wiped out everything. Luckily I had written down most everything up to that point.
I've got a load in my winmag with a 215 and 75.9gr of magpro. Lol. I often think to myself, why didn't you just load 76? Too many F class guy reloading videos on "tuning" a load. That's why. At the time I think I started at 75 and worked up in .3 increments. Yeah I'm pretty well done with that anymore. It did have an effect but I don't think it would consistently have the same effect.
The biggest thing that I found that helped that rifle was the firing pin assembly. Fixed that, and the same ammo that was shooting in .6" territory shot probably a pretty solid .3" haven't put the calipers to it yet.
I'm going to redo this load completely here in the near future. It's too warm for warm weather.
I'm in the mood to try some 155's, and I've got 60 pieces of lapua, what was the load ?
This is basically the thing, you feel the .3gr increments helped you to find a load that is the best, but that load will likely shoot groups anywhere from .5 to .01" when you worked up that load you probably walked right past sever .5" groups but if you would shoot that load over and over it would likely shoot very similar to what you are currently shooting.
So all these benchrest and f class shooters should save their time and just pick an arbitrary velocity and load to hit that? The entire sport of precision has gotten it wrong?
If this is true should random groups all shoot the same? If we shot 4 groups of 500 rounds at different powder loads every single one would have the same sd/es?
If this is true should random groups all shoot the same? If we shot 4 groups of 500 rounds at different powder loads every single one would have the same sd/es?
I watched this video this morning. I have a tendency to defer to the benchrest crowd when I want to learn how to wring everything I can out of handloading.
He still tunes slightly but he starts with a "known good" load. At this point, in the benchrest crowd the loads that work for a br variant or a ppc or a dasher are pretty well known. I think it's mostly the methods used that really make the accuracy.
I'm starting to believe there's more accuracy to be had in case prep and primers than anything else.
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not necessarily, charge weight can affect ES/SD but usually less than you'd think, if you did that experiment I think you'd be surprised how close the numbers are, Hornady and AB have podcasts on the topic and have done similar tests that they share the results of
don't chase primers - but do shoot fed or CCI magnums bottomed out in the cup.
There is diminished but meaningful value in getting very serious about neck tension if you want to get into real precision shooting.
KISS is good. Reloading doesn't have to be elaborate to make good ammo.
If it works for you, then by all means, keep your process. I used to do essentially the same thing, until more testing made me realize that there was no real velocity "nodes". Or at least they didn't really exist like the ladder would make you believe.
The good news is that you are making good ammo because of your components and process. Not because of some secret "node" you found in a ladder. You can probably load any of those charge weights on those ladders and have similar results. I would take solace in that fact.
Like I said in the Savage thread, anyone who does less than me (loading and the results they get) is Stupid! Anyone who does more than me (loading and results) is also stupid. 
That's the way all these conversations and videos go.
Hornady videos are teaching me if you do average things you'll get average results. I guess? I think that's what they're trying to say?
You don't need to do this and this to shoot good enough to do what I want to with my rifle/loads. ( see above ^ )
Everyone's "good enough" is different. Some people don't have one. If there's not a one caliber hole when you're done, there's room for improvement.
Saturday... brand new barrel, new brass, new type bullets, new weight, total starting from scratch with some loads and OAL picked at random. 3 round groups, pretty much meaningless, I know but I was just feeling my way around pressure wise. Shot one group and was disappointed in it, 3/4" I looked at the Garmin... High: 2608 fps. Low: 2606 fps. Ave: 2607 fps. "Wot? Why you shoot so bad!?!?" That was far and away the worst group of the day.
That's the way all these conversations and videos go.Hornady videos are teaching me if you do average things you'll get average results. I guess? I think that's what they're trying to say?
You don't need to do this and this to shoot good enough to do what I want to with my rifle/loads. ( see above ^ )
Everyone's "good enough" is different. Some people don't have one. If there's not a one caliber hole when you're done, there's room for improvement.
Saturday... brand new barrel, new brass, new type bullets, new weight, total starting from scratch with some loads and OAL picked at random. 3 round groups, pretty much meaningless, I know but I was just feeling my way around pressure wise. Shot one group and was disappointed in it, 3/4" I looked at the Garmin... High: 2608 fps. Low: 2606 fps. Ave: 2607 fps. "Wot? Why you shoot so bad!?!?" That was far and away the worst group of the day.
you shouldn't look at groups too closely or develop a load w/ less than 100 rounds down tube. That could clean up to be a great load.Like I said in the Savage thread, anyone who does less than me (loading and the results they get) is Stupid! Anyone who does more than me (loading and results) is also stupid.
Hornady videos are teaching me if you do average things you'll get average results. I guess? I think that's what they're trying to say?
You don't need to do this and this to shoot good enough to do what I want to with my rifle/loads. ( see above ^ )
Everyone's "good enough" is different. Some people don't have one. If there's not a one caliber hole when you're done, there's room for improvement.
Saturday... brand new barrel, new brass, new type bullets, new weight, total starting from scratch with some loads and OAL picked at random. 3 round groups, pretty much meaningless, I know but I was just feeling my way around pressure wise. Shot one group and was disappointed in it, 3/4" I looked at the Garmin... High: 2608 fps. Low: 2606 fps. Ave: 2607 fps. "Wot? Why you shoot so bad!?!?" That was far and away the worst group of the day.
I hate it when that happens. I've actually gotten three in a row to click off the same velocity one time. But it didn't shoot for crap.
I recently had to load for a brand new to me cartridge. Had 3-4 days over a couple weeks to make it happen. 33XC using F215M, Peterson brass, A-tips, Bartlein. I have my reloading process in general pretty dialed at this point. Had 3 powders to work with. I ran ballistics on speed, and with my goals/barrel length, came to a velocity range I would feel good with (~3050 fps).
Single rounds of 10 different charges of H50BMG from 2778 - 2990. N568 from 2835 - 3054. N570 from 2839 - 3046. Did this to check velo and pressure. So now I know what charge weights I should be working with.
These are not big sample sizes, I know, but I feel it got me what I needed. 5 shots of 2 different charges for each powder. the SD for H50BMG were 7.0 and 5.6. N568 were 4.4 and 2.9. N570 were 5.3 and 4.3.
From there I decided N570 was going to burn the barrel out too quick. H50BMG was a little too much case fill I thought. N568 was a nice all around compromise.
Ended up with a load of N568 at 3065 fps that put up a 20 shot SD of 5.2, and lots of 1/2" 5 shot groups at 100y.
Never touched seating depth at 20 thou off.
6 different charge weights, 3 different powders, all shooting mid-single digit SD. I get it's a little different on the big magnums, but still...
Single rounds of 10 different charges of H50BMG from 2778 - 2990. N568 from 2835 - 3054. N570 from 2839 - 3046. Did this to check velo and pressure. So now I know what charge weights I should be working with.
These are not big sample sizes, I know, but I feel it got me what I needed. 5 shots of 2 different charges for each powder. the SD for H50BMG were 7.0 and 5.6. N568 were 4.4 and 2.9. N570 were 5.3 and 4.3.
From there I decided N570 was going to burn the barrel out too quick. H50BMG was a little too much case fill I thought. N568 was a nice all around compromise.
Ended up with a load of N568 at 3065 fps that put up a 20 shot SD of 5.2, and lots of 1/2" 5 shot groups at 100y.
Never touched seating depth at 20 thou off.
6 different charge weights, 3 different powders, all shooting mid-single digit SD. I get it's a little different on the big magnums, but still...
Primers can make all the difference. For example . . .
Just a few weeks ago, I picked up some Remington 9.5's for a really good deal and thought I'd just use them for fireforming some brass. Out of curiosity, since I've never used them before, I loaded up 25 rounds just to see if the velocity difference (if any) due to reports of them being hotter than Fed's and CCI's. Criminy! Average velocity was higher than what I normally get by ~20fps, but it was the inconsistency the floored me. For the 25 rounds I got an SD of 33 fps and and ES of 97fps. What the . . .??? I've never had loads do that poorly, even though I wasn't using my best brass. Then I loaded up 10 rounds of my best loads that work really well, where I typically get mid single digit SD's, but the only difference being the Remington primers. Velocity was still ~20 fps faster than normal and the SD was 14.2 and the ES was 41. The Remington primers I've got SUCK! I guess I'll still use them for fireforming though.
Also few weeks ago I got some .308 Alpha brass and decided to fire form them. I loaded up 10 with my favorite load using CCI400's just to find their case volumes. Out of the 10 I got 3 pierced primers. That too is a first for me. Apparently the larger flash holes that Alpha brass has puts more pressure of the thinner 400's cups. Followed up with CCI 450's in 10 more and they performed well, giving me 5.3 SD and a 16 ES, and . . . the two 5 round groups were at .435" (at 100 yds). Because those 10 did so well, I loaded up the 80 remaining cases with the same load. Yesterday, 80 rounds fired and chronoed with an SD of 6.2 and an ES of 29.
Choosing the right or wrong primers can make a difference.
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