Load development or not?

[Ledzep]

You have been one the biggest perpetuators of this trope, at least on this forum. Yourself and Dthomas have pounded the statistically relevant sample size and dispersion drum pretty hard. This seems like a retraction?


This topic is the Tide Pod Challenge of our era’s reloading forums, future shooters will wonder how it was ever taken seriously. I’m hesitant to respond, but for the sake of the historical record, I will, again.

Here’s a few pearls:

Barrels have bullets and powders they don’t “like”.

There are internal combustion ballistic “sweet” spots.

Barrel harmonic “happiness” effects POI consistency.

*For the culture - The words happy, like, and sweet are often used interchangeably with the word, node.

No, it's exactly the same message as it's been for the last 3-4 years. I've had people tell me that I'm saying "nothing matters" and that's not the case, either.

To get a decent predictive perception of what a load is capable of requires a large enough sample size (20+ IME). Altering different variables is *likely* to create different levels of performance change. Swapping components is the quickest way to see big changes. Fiddling with seating depth or powder charge ladders is potentially how to effect things positively or negatively in very small ways.

I just wanted to point out that there is more nuance than "Load to 2800fps and it's guaranteed to hammer" because it's not really a realistic guarantee and you may have to try a couple different powders or bullets to get to a good place. Whether or not you want to mess with seating depth or powder charge or neck tension or muzzle device from there is up to whether it's worth it to you or not.

 

[smokinbobf4]

I understand it’s not a guarantee was more just wondering how much truth there is to it “most of the time”. Wouldn’t be a bad thing to try and if it doesn’t work, then back to the drawing board. I am also aware that it’s probably not any combo, I was thinking the ones that have been shot a lot and have a ton of info. 6 dasher/varget/105 or 109. I have had to do a bit of work on my 6 creed with h4350 and Berger 109 but have it shooting really well now. I have a friend who isn’t as picky with his reloading and got a 6 dasher proof prefit and it will shoot anything, that combo mentioned earlier with great accuracy and numbers. I am really thinking when this barrel is shot out of switching to that combo.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

You have been one the biggest perpetuators of this trope, at least on this forum. Yourself and Dthomas have pounded the statistically relevant sample size and dispersion drum pretty hard. This seems like a retraction?


This topic is the Tide Pod Challenge of our era’s reloading forums, future shooters will wonder how it was ever taken seriously. I’m hesitant to respond, but for the sake of the historical record, I will, again.

Here’s a few pearls:

Barrels have bullets and powders they don’t “like”.

There are internal combustion ballistic “sweet” spots.

Barrel harmonic “happiness” effects POI consistency.

*For the culture - The words happy, like, and sweet are often used interchangeably with the word, node.

Unfortunately, for those same years you have been picking and choosing what to take from those posts that you don't like and either completely misunderstanding it or making straw man arguments. I'm not sure which it is, but it doesn't matter too much. As you will either never understand the depth of the conversation, or you refuse to.

Just like you did here, you saw one tiny sentence in his post and without taking the entire thought in its entirety or context, you attempted to attack the part you picked as an argument against it.


There's long list of industry contributors such as Litz, you guys take aim at anyone who attempts to help the precision community with their time. Hornady fires more rounds in a controlled environment than everyone on this forum combined. They give the data here and in their podcasts for what amounts to free for everyone who is reading or watching. You don't ever have to buy a single Hornady product and you can get the info, or at least the meat and potatoes.

And instead of attempting to understand it (or just ignoring it if you don't like it), you zero in on tiny pieces in an attempt to discredit. It's the hide version of cancel culture. And eventually this kind of info ends up behind website or patreon pay walls thanks to posters like you.

 

[mrcheesemoose]

You have been one the biggest perpetuators of this trope, at least on this forum. Yourself and Dthomas have pounded the statistically relevant sample size and dispersion drum pretty hard. This seems like a retraction?


This topic is the Tide Pod Challenge of our era’s reloading forums, future shooters will wonder how it was ever taken seriously. I’m hesitant to respond, but for the sake of the historical record, I will, again.

Here’s a few pearls:

Barrels have bullets and powders they don’t “like”.

There are internal combustion ballistic “sweet” spots.

Barrel harmonic “happiness” effects POI consistency.

*For the culture - The words happy, like, and sweet are often used interchangeably with the word, node.

Your dumb

 

[Buzzinga]

@Ledzep

First, it’s because of what you’ve and others mentioned have posted that made me rethink traditional reloading methods and it has made life a lot easier and shooting more enjoyable so thank you.

It took a while to accept that what I thought I was seeing wasn’t what was actually there and I was reading too much into too little.

When you say eventually a barrel won’t like even a generally accepted good load, do you mean that there is a combination of factors that would combine to make a barrel only shoot 1-1.5 moa? and that combination and negative result would likely be repeated for each identical barrel cut that way? Or

Are you saying that if you had, for example a couple hundred identical Bartlein barrels from the same batch cut with the same reamer specs, that eventually you would find one that only shoots 1-1.5 moa?

Thanks for sharing, it is appreciated

 

[Haney]

Your dumb

 

[Ledzep]

When you say eventually a barrel won’t like even a generally accepted good load, do you mean that there is a combination of factors that would combine to make a barrel only shoot 1-1.5 moa? and that combination and negative result would likely be repeated for each identical barrel cut that way? Or

Are you saying that if you had, for example a couple hundred identical Bartlein barrels from the same batch cut with the same reamer specs, that eventually you would find one that only shoots 1-1.5 moa?

The blue one. As to WHY a particular bullet powder barrel combination works well and the next barrel bullet or powder doesn't... yet to be truly discovered. I don't think anyone completely understands what's physically happening. Lots of theories with lots of holes in them

 

[Baron23]

Swapping component types is the quickest way to find the bulk of precision potential. Most situations people aren't in a position to swap the barrel so that typically means trying out different bullets and powders.

In my experience whatever subtle "tune" can be achieved by playing with seating depth within about .100" of jump, or trying powder charge ladders within 1.0 gr are not likely to show bigger changes in performance than what you'll see from swapping powders. You can mess with seating depth and powder charge and neck tension and wrangle in the last little bit of performance if you care to test so much (or don't if you want the 90% solution), but none of it is going to fix a combination of bullets and powder that don't shoot well, and that entire window of performance, if you care to test it to death, is going to be eclipsed by swapping components.

So IMO it's worth swapping components around a little to find one or many suitable combinations for your barrel, but the bulk of the rest of what has traditionally been done, especially in 3-5 round increments are noisy wishy washy wastes of time, albeit theraputic and confidence inspiring to some.

No two barrels are the same, so while Varget and 110 A-tips is a go-to for most of the ARC/BR/Dasher/GT sized 6mm's, I promise you there are barrels out there that will not shoot the combination better than 1-1.5 MOA. However, if you were to try 110 Atips with RL 15.5, RL-16, H4350, XBR 8208, etc... You can probably find something that works great. Likewise if you keep varget and swap the 110's for 105's, 109's, 108's, etc... you are likely to eventually find a bullet that will shoot with Varget in that barrel.

On top of all of that, you can swap or omit muzzle devices and get different distinct performances. Worth a test/try IMO, especially with gas guns. It's not as pronounced a difference with bolt guns but it's still there.

All good advice and suggestions....except when we can't just go out on any given day and buy 3-4 diff powders and 3-4 diff bullets cause they are only sporadically available. I mean, say I buy just a bit of diff powders and bullets and find my optimum load for my barrel....and then want to buy 2,500 bullets and 8-16 lbs of powder of this optimum load (and don't even mention primers) and...yeah, good luck easily finding them. The way its been going, one may well be sitting there with a great load on paper that...well, you just can't shoot cause you just can't get the reloading supplies.

Ok, I'll go off and whine elsewhere! hahaha

Cheers

 

[mrcheesemoose]

View attachment 8405516

Sorry let me fix it. Ur dum

 

[Taylorbok]

All good advice and suggestions....except when we can't just go out on any given day and buy 3-4 diff powders and 3-4 diff bullets cause they are only sporadically available. I mean, say I buy just a bit of diff powders and bullets and find my optimum load for my barrel....and then want to buy 2,500 bullets and 8-16 lbs of powder of this optimum load (and don't even mention primers) and...yeah, good luck easily finding them. The way its been going, one may well be sitting there with a great load on paper that...well, you just can't shoot cause you just can't get the reloading supplies.

Ok, I'll go off and whine elsewhere! hahaha

Cheers

My thoughts exactly. In 3/6 cartridges I had to make substitutions on components due to availability.

 

[Baron23]

My thoughts exactly. In 3/6 cartridges I had to make substitutions on components due to availability.

haha...and that is such a more succinct way to say it....lol.

 

[Haney]

Sorry let me fix it. Ur dum

You suck at this . Keep trying.

 

[Seymour Fish]

If you have a load worked up it may transfer to another barrel. For example, I have a good load for my TRG-22 that happens to shoot awesome in my AI. I would venture to say that there are some loads that just happen to shoot well in a variety of firearms. But to say pick a velocity and forget it is pure unadulterated bullshit.

Then again, what do you expect from people who failed at reloading.

Exactly

 

[jakelly]

Unfortunately, for those same years you have been picking and choosing what to take from those posts that you don't like and either completely misunderstanding it or making straw man arguments. I'm not sure which it is, but it doesn't matter too much. As you will either never understand the depth of the conversation, or you refuse to.

Just like you did here, you saw one tiny sentence in his post and without taking the entire thought in its entirety or context, you attempted to attack the part you picked as an argument against it.


There's long list of industry contributors such as Litz, you guys take aim at anyone who attempts to help the precision community with their time. Hornady fires more rounds in a controlled environment than everyone on this forum combined. They give the data here and in their podcasts for what amounts to free for everyone who is reading or watching. You don't ever have to buy a single Hornady product and you can get the info, or at least the meat and potatoes.

And instead of attempting to understand it (or just ignoring it if you don't like it), you zero in on tiny pieces in an attempt to discredit. It's the hide version of cancel culture. And eventually this kind of info ends up behind website or patreon pay walls thanks to posters like you.

How do you know what I was or wasn’t doing prior to your join date?

I have been a part of several where the take away was “there is no load development, use quality components, pick a velocity, tune with seating depth and drive on.” Led Zep surely did not take issue with it then. In fact, he was a cited authority in that camp.

The threads are there, look them up. I’m not going to take the time to fill you in.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Are you saying that if you had, for example a couple hundred identical Bartlein barrels from the same batch cut with the same reamer specs, that eventually you would find one that only shoots 1-1.5 moa?

1-1.5 MOA? With Bartlein? Probably not that much. But will there be a difference? The answer is an unequivocal yes. Not all barrels, even from the same manufacturer, are equal. Due to minute imperfections in the material, they will all react differently to the strain induced during turning and introducing rifling. Better manufacturers (like my favorite, Bartlein) will minimize the differences, but they can't remove them entirely.

How does this strain manifest itself?

A barrel that is not completely straight. And it is the difference between the centerline of the bore and the center of gravity of the spinning bullet that induces vibration in the barrel. This vibration is a primary contributor to dispersion/group size as it travels up and down the barrel during the shot. If the bullet exits while the bulk of the vibration is at the muzzle end of the barrel, you see larger dispersion. You can control all the components and brass prep to a large extent, but you can't control the rotational orientation of the bullet with respect to an off-center CG, which will change the dynamics of the vibration shot to shot.

What you CAN control is the speed of the bullet (through powder selection and charge) and how far it is off the lands, which will impact when it leaves the barrel. When you tune this to when the vibration is at the action end of the barrel, you get reduced dispersion.

 

[Haney]

Unfortunately, for those same years you have been picking and choosing what to take from those posts that you don't like and either completely misunderstanding it or making straw man arguments. I'm not sure which it is, but it doesn't matter too much. As you will either never understand the depth of the conversation, or you refuse to.

Just like you did here, you saw one tiny sentence in his post and without taking the entire thought in its entirety or context, you attempted to attack the part you picked as an argument against it.


There's long list of industry contributors such as Litz, you guys take aim at anyone who attempts to help the precision community with their time. Hornady fires more rounds in a controlled environment than everyone on this forum combined. They give the data here and in their podcasts for what amounts to free for everyone who is reading or watching. You don't ever have to buy a single Hornady product and you can get the info, or at least the meat and potatoes.

And instead of attempting to understand it (or just ignoring it if you don't like it), you zero in on tiny pieces in an attempt to discredit. It's the hide version of cancel culture. And eventually this kind of info ends up behind website or patreon pay walls thanks to posters like you.

 

[ironpony52]

I am not a long range guy, yet. But some of the reading I have done, the one article interviewed the top 30 shooter and about 10 were using off the shelf loads.
They felt they did not gain anything by spending all the time developing and reloading. I will try and find it.

 

[Macht]

A barrel that is not completely straight. And it is the difference between the centerline of the bore and the center of gravity of the spinning bullet that induces vibration in the barrel. This vibration is a primary contributor to dispersion/group size as it travels up and down the barrel during the shot. If the bullet exits while the bulk of the vibration is at the muzzle end of the barrel, you see larger dispersion.

Source please. Edit: I should be more clear. I'm referring to the bolded portion.

 

[Maurygold]

Swapping component types is the quickest way to find the bulk of precision potential. Most situations people aren't in a position to swap the barrel so that typically means trying out different bullets and powders.

In my experience whatever subtle "tune" can be achieved by playing with seating depth within about .100" of jump, or trying powder charge ladders within 1.0 gr are not likely to show bigger changes in performance than what you'll see from swapping powders. You can mess with seating depth and powder charge and neck tension and wrangle in the last little bit of performance if you care to test so much (or don't if you want the 90% solution), but none of it is going to fix a combination of bullets and powder that don't shoot well, and that entire window of performance, if you care to test it to death, is going to be eclipsed by swapping components.

So IMO it's worth swapping components around a little to find one or many suitable combinations for your barrel, but the bulk of the rest of what has traditionally been done, especially in 3-5 round increments are noisy wishy washy wastes of time, albeit theraputic and confidence inspiring to some.

No two barrels are the same, so while Varget and 110 A-tips is a go-to for most of the ARC/BR/Dasher/GT sized 6mm's, I promise you there are barrels out there that will not shoot the combination better than 1-1.5 MOA. However, if you were to try 110 Atips with RL 15.5, RL-16, H4350, XBR 8208, etc... You can probably find something that works great. Likewise if you keep varget and swap the 110's for 105's, 109's, 108's, etc... you are likely to eventually find a bullet that will shoot with Varget in that barrel.

On top of all of that, you can swap or omit muzzle devices and get different distinct performances. Worth a test/try IMO, especially with gas guns. It's not as pronounced a difference with bolt guns but it's still there.

I disagree if you are using good components. I have Never met a barrel that didn’t like the following combo:

Ignition - cci/ federal
Brass - lapua/ alpha/ adg
Powder - h4350,h1000, varget
Bullet - Berger hybrid.


If you use subpar brass or hornady/ nosler bullets yeah expect to have to do some testing.

 

[Cfshooter]

I am not a long range guy, yet. But some of the reading I have done, the one article interviewed the top 30 shooter and about 10 were using off the shelf loads.
They felt they did not gain anything by spending all the time developing and reloading. I will try and find it.

Top 30 in what discipline? Some disciplines do not require super precise/accurate performance to do well. The quality of barrels and bullets help some of those factory loads perform very well. I had a Savage in 6.5cm that consistently shot .5 with factory loads, plenty enough for some disciplines.

 

[ironpony52]

PRS NRL

Hornady ELDM 140 & 147

 

[Cfshooter]

PRS NRL

Hornady ELDM 140 & 1

Those are all solid factory loads for sure. Also in inherently accurate calibers.

 

[XP1K]

1-1.5 MOA? With Bartlein? Probably not that much. But will there be a difference? The answer is an unequivocal yes. Not all barrels, even from the same manufacturer, are equal. Due to minute imperfections in the material, they will all react differently to the strain induced during turning and introducing rifling. Better manufacturers (like my favorite, Bartlein) will minimize the differences, but they can't remove them entirely.

How does this strain manifest itself?

A barrel that is not completely straight. And it is the difference between the centerline of the bore and the center of gravity of the spinning bullet that induces vibration in the barrel. This vibration is a primary contributor to dispersion/group size as it travels up and down the barrel during the shot. If the bullet exits while the bulk of the vibration is at the muzzle end of the barrel, you see larger dispersion. You can control all the components and brass prep to a large extent, but you can't control the rotational orientation of the bullet with respect to an off-center CG, which will change the dynamics of the vibration shot to shot.

What you CAN control is the speed of the bullet (through powder selection and charge) and how far it is off the lands, which will impact when it leaves the barrel. When you tune this to when the vibration is at the action end of the barrel, you get reduced dispersion.

If you watch Mark and Sam afterwork, he uses standard large rifle primers in just about all of his rifles, even the big magnums. His theory being that the magnum primers introduce more vibration from the start with a more violent ignition of the powder charge. He even says you can feel it in the recoil impulse.

Seeing his results at distance I decided to try standard primers in my 300winmag. My go to is usually a fed 215m or cci250. Cci 250 was the only primer I loaded for years in everything I loaded, whether it called for a magnum primer or not.

So, back to my winmag. I had been struggling with sd and magpro with my 215's. I didn't want to back off powder, so I switched to 250's, got worse. Switched to standard winLR and bingo, groups went from about .75 moa to .5, and the recoil impulse was noticeably softer. More of a soft push than a whack.

The Smith that I bought my lathe from once recrowned a barrel five or six times to tune it for a certain factory load he wanted to shoot. Allowing the bullet to exit at a certain point in the vibrations at the muzzle. I think there's something to it.

 

[Maurygold]

If you watch Mark and Sam afterwork, he uses standard large rifle primers in just about all of his rifles, even the big magnums. His theory being that the magnum primers introduce more vibration from the start with a more violent ignition of the powder charge. He even says you can feel it in the recoil impulse.

Seeing his results at distance I decided to try standard primers in my 300winmag. My go to is usually a fed 215m or cci250. Cci 250 was the only primer I loaded for years in everything I loaded, whether it called for a magnum primer or not.

So, back to my winmag. I had been struggling with sd and magpro with my 215's. I didn't want to back off powder, so I switched to 250's, got worse. Switched to standard winLR and bingo, groups went from about .75 moa to .5, and the recoil impulse was noticeably softer. More of a soft push than a whack.

The Smith that I bought my lathe from once recrowned a barrel five or six times to tune it for a certain factory load he wanted to shoot. Allowing the bullet to exit at a certain point in the vibrations at the muzzle. I think there's something to it.

What in the fudd are you in here circulating. Magnum primers do work better. That powder is trash and crowning barrels doesn’t change that especially with factory loads.

Crimping bullets helps reloads. What in the Palma rifle 308 is king are you saying???

 

[mrcheesemoose]

I disagree if you are using good components. I have Never met a barrel that didn’t like the following combo:

Ignition - cci/ federal
Brass - lapua/ alpha/ adg
Powder - h4350,h1000, varget
Bullet - Berger hybrid.


If you use subpar brass or hornady/ nosler bullets yeah expect to have to do some testing.

I have a 300 prc and a 308 barrel that don’t shoot anything Berger well. The hornady and sierra groups definitely did better with Varget in the 308, and h1000 in the prc.

 

[Maurygold]

I have a 300 prc and a 308 barrel that don’t shoot anything Berger well. The hornady and sierra groups definitely did better with Varget in the 308, and h1000 in the prc.

Sounds like a chambering issue. Or you used cheap brass

 

[XP1K]

What in the fudd are you in here circulating. Magnum primers do work better. That powder is trash and crowning barrels doesn’t change that especially with factory loads.

Crimping bullets helps reloads. What in the Palma rifle 308 is king are you saying???

That powder was all that was available at time of purchase. I will agree, it's less than ideal. Seen any reloader 26 lately ? H1000 is still hit or miss. I've got a good line on N570 but man that stuff is hot! Im not really lookimg to cut four or five hundred rounds of barrel life out of my winmag. Things have gotten better as far as selection of components recently but rewind a year or two and selection was pretty limited.

I'm just sharing my experiences of things that I have seen firsthand with my own eyes. Not something I've read in a book or on the internet. That's what we're here for right, so people can read other opinions and draw their own conclusions ?

 

[FredHammer]

I have a 300 prc and a 308 barrel that don’t shoot anything Berger well. The hornady and sierra groups definitely did better with Varget in the 308, and h1000 in the prc.

Makes me wonder if the degree of obturation/engraving of the bullets in the rifling is making this difference. Bullets vary in dia between brands by up to .0008" over caliber size I've measured via micrometer. Bores vary in the ID too. Get a small ID bore and a larger over caliber bullet, or vice versa, is the relationship between bullet and bore size a thing for precision? I don't know for sure, but I am on the hunt to find the answer to this.

 

[Maurygold]

That powder was all that was available at time of purchase. I will agree, it's less than ideal. Seen any reloader 26 lately ? H1000 is still hit or miss. I've got a good line on N570 but man that stuff is hot! Im not really lookimg to cut four or five hundred rounds of barrel life out of my winmag. Things have gotten better as far as selection of components recently but rewind a year or two and selection was pretty limited.

I'm just sharing my experiences of things that I have seen firsthand with my own eyes. Not something I've read in a book or on the internet. That's what we're here for right, so people can read other opinions and draw their own conclusions ?

I’ve bought 10+ lbs of h1000 in the last year and another 15+ of h4350 (my personal choice for win mag).

You just shared some shit you heard from a gunsmith not witnessed - and it was not helpful or accurate.

 

[mrcheesemoose]

Sounds like a chambering issue. Or you used cheap brass

Same exact combo you had above for both, lapua, CCI, same powders and bullet combos. I mean it don’t shoot poorly, it just didn’t shoot as well as the hornadys and sierras

 

[Maurygold]

Same exact combo you had above for both, lapua, CCI, same powders and bullet combos. I mean it don’t shoot poorly, it just didn’t shoot as well as the hornadys and sierras

Bartlein?

 

[ARShooter91]

H4350 and Hornady/Lapua brass with a 140eld doesn't seem to care what the charge or seating depth is in my rifle. At the same time my buddy's bergara doesn't shoot it that great. SD and es double in his rifle.

Also same barrel with a 130g Norma is very particular on seating depth and a little on charge weight.

 

[mrcheesemoose]

Bartlein?

Nope, ones a Shaw, the others a criterion

 

[Maurygold]

Nope, ones a Shaw, the others a criterion

Ew - that explains it

 

[mrcheesemoose]

I have Never met a barrel that didn’t like the following combo

You did say “a barrel”, not “a bartelin barrel”. But the Shaw is pretty good. I’m happy with it. Have a bartelin as well, and I like the Shaw better

 

[Ledzep]

I disagree if you are using good components. I have Never met a barrel that didn’t like the following combo:

Ignition - cci/ federal
Brass - lapua/ alpha/ adg
Powder - h4350,h1000, varget
Bullet - Berger hybrid.


If you use subpar brass or hornady/ nosler bullets yeah expect to have to do some testing.

Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

[Baron23]

Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Oh no, not in Murray’s life. To Murray, whatever he thinks is the alpha and the omega of facts on the subject. lol

 

[XP1K]

Okay. Getting pretty close to my last installment here. Going off the recommended load of 44.5-45gr of varget I went with 45.

New sig fury hybrid cases, formed to 308, primed by sig. No clue what primer.
178gr eldm @2.800"
45gr of varget.

first group, it's always that last shot. The way it was going, velocity wise, it should have been in there. It seems to like to be between about 2640 and 2660 fps.

Second group I went and loaded what I had left of my formed cases with the same 45gr charge and fired them all at the same target. Only had 9 left. #8 was the wild one, 2703 fps. #7 was on me, fighting a pretty gusty 8-12mph wind that switches three times inside 100 yards. It was blowing pretty good left to right, I held off and it hit directly point of aim.

Overall I'm pretty happy with it. Especially considering i have no idea what primer is in them. I'll load a few and go shoot them at 600 tomorrow. Maybe there really is no need for load development anymore. Just consult the Hide for its infinite wisdom.

 

[XP1K]

Speaking of consulting the Hide, I'm about to reload these initial 20 cases, somebody tell me what primer to use. I've got cci br2, 200, 250, 34, winLR, might have a few fed210m, fed215m rem9½, 9½m.

I'm going back and forth between the br2 and the 210 myself. What say the Hide?

 

[Rocketmandb]

Speaking of consulting the Hide, I'm about to reload these initial 20 cases, somebody tell me what primer to use. I've got cci br2, 200, 250, 34, winLR, might have a few fed210m, fed215m rem9½, 9½m.

I'm going back and forth between the br2 and the 210 myself. What say the Hide?

I use BR2s extensively and like them the best for my 300 PRC on down. 210Ms are good, but Federal primers are tougher to come by. You might have some now, can you get them as readily later?

 

[XP1K]

I'll give the br2 a go.

 

[Rocketmandb]

If you watch Mark and Sam afterwork, he uses standard large rifle primers in just about all of his rifles, even the big magnums. His theory being that the magnum primers introduce more vibration from the start with a more violent ignition of the powder charge. He even says you can feel it in the recoil impulse.

Sort of a correct assessment, but not exactly. Burn rate at any given point in time is directly related to pressure in the case body. Pressure in the case body goes up as powder burns. See the issue here? The faster you burn a powder, the more pressure goes up. The more pressure goes up, the faster you burn powder. See what can happen? This can create a runaway condition until the bullet starts to move, powder gets burned and pressure starts to go down.

What magnum primers do is introduce more energy into the powder, which causes it to burn quicker, which causes the pressure to rise quicker, which causes the powder to burn quicker, etc.

It's been no secret for, well... ever... that if you move from standard primers to magnum primers that you need to lower powder charge to compensate.

By the way, as I just mentioned in the post above, I too prefer BR2s, but not because of any perceived impulse change - which is a symptom of load and primer - but rather because I did a fair amount of testing and found that BR2s delivered more consistent results.

Seeing his results at distance I decided to try standard primers in my 300winmag. My go to is usually a fed 215m or cci250. Cci 250 was the only primer I loaded for years in everything I loaded, whether it called for a magnum primer or not.

So, back to my winmag. I had been struggling with sd and magpro with my 215's. I didn't want to back off powder, so I switched to 250's, got worse. Switched to standard winLR and bingo, groups went from about .75 moa to .5, and the recoil impulse was noticeably softer. More of a soft push than a whack.

Think about what happened here - going back to what I talked about above. You lowered the burn rate at the beginning of ignition, which lowered pressure build, which lowered burn rate, etc. This has the effect of smoothing/lengthening the total ignition pressure curve. That could certainly give you the "soft push" you experienced. Was it the primer? Not specifically - you could have gotten the same results by either lowering the powder charge or changing to a slower-burning powder.

The Smith that I bought my lathe from once recrowned a barrel five or six times to tune it for a certain factory load he wanted to shoot. Allowing the bullet to exit at a certain point in the vibrations at the muzzle. I think there's something to it.

An extreme measure to obtain this, but yes, that is one solution to the problem.

 

[Rocketmandb]

I'll give the br2 a go.

I have like 5000 BR2s on the shelf and about 2000 215Ms. The 215Ms I use in my 37XC and I had to pay dearly for them due to the "GunBroker Tax" - availability is a very nice side effect of BR2s.

 

[Maurygold]

You did say “a barrel”, not “a bartelin barrel”. But the Shaw is pretty good. I’m happy with it. Have a bartelin as well, and I like the Shaw better

Sorry, I only build rifles with the best components.

 

[Maurygold]

Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I didn’t say it was an absolute. I have never seen it, just like I wrote. You assumed more than I wrote that’s not on me

 

[Ledzep]

Crazy person. Got it.

 

[XP1K]

I have like 5000 BR2s on the shelf and about 2000 215Ms. The 215Ms I use in my 37XC and I had to pay dearly for them due to the "GunBroker Tax" - availability is a very nice side effect of BR2s.

I'm down to about 1,500 215's. Last I bought any I got them for $50 a thousand.

 

[Maurygold]

Crazy person. Got it.

The guys saying hybrids didn’t work used a fucking Shaw and criterion barrel (what are those?!?!?). And the other guys is talking about crimping for accuracy. Yeah…. I’m crazy.

 

[mrcheesemoose]

The guys saying hybrids didn’t work used a fucking Shaw and criterion barrel (what are those?!?!?). And the other guys is talking about crimping for accuracy. Yeah…. I’m crazy.

Never said they didn’t work. I said they weren’t as good as sierras and hornadys out of those barrels. Being loyal to a good brand is nice and all, but there are other barrel manufacturers out there that make just as good, and some maybe better, barrels as bartelin.

 

[Maurygold]

Never said they didn’t work. I said they weren’t as good as sierras and hornadys out of those barrels. Being loyal to a good brand is nice and all, but there are other barrel manufacturers out there that make just as good, and some maybe better, barrels as bartelin.

Bartlein is the king of 30 cal. Krieger outshines them slightly below 30 cal. And I think proof is outstanding but probably third in line. I shot a lot of f class and we all landed on the bartlein at 30 and krieger below. I’m not a loyalist but I’ve spent some time around precision.

You almost have to wonder why krieger and bartlein are the most common barrels at precision events and not whatever a criterion is? Don’t say you’re shooting the best components and that’s the shit it’s going through.