The guy that stuffed 115s in the ARC had to have a longer freebore so I would imagine yes his OAL was longer. If I remember correctly he loaded mag length on a BR or dasher mag.
The Cartridge Conundrum
- Thread starter Lowlight
- Start date
This is not hypothetical. Our resident Hornady guy @Ledzep has stated that all of the ARC factory ammunition is loaded to pressures safe for AR rifles.
I’m thinking the other way. A new rifle for a new shooter. The now rather old 6.5 Creedmoor makes more sense. Go to a 130 Berger, recoil is not that drastic, components practically are falling off trees and its easy to spot misses (which the beginner is likely to see a lot of).
I actually thought of building a .22 in the Valkyrie chambering. However, now, I am pretty certain, I’m going to rebarrel one of my GT’s to the CM when the barrel next wears out.
I know this is backwards from what Frank is discussing, but I believe there is merit in the old 6.5.
I actually thought of building a .22 in the Valkyrie chambering. However, now, I am pretty certain, I’m going to rebarrel one of my GT’s to the CM when the barrel next wears out.
I know this is backwards from what Frank is discussing, but I believe there is merit in the old 6.5.
Absolutely, I started off with a 14lb 6.5. I made work with what I had at the time. Before I got into PRS I wanted a do all rifle so I built a 22in 6.5 in a prs1 stock. It shot the 130s really good. Ran them at 2875 with RL16 until both become unicorn dust and seeds.
I did not know that, either way they necked down a case and sold it as the greatest thing ever. They had people saying you could take elk at a 1000 yds with this miracle cartridge
Let's see, it was first introduced in 2007, as a long range target round, by Dave Emary of Hornady and Dennis Demille of Creedmoor sports. It languished for eight to ten YEARS before the PRS crowd began to pick up on it. Finally around 2017, it caught hold and finding a rifle anywhere in 6.5 Creedmoor was impossible. Finally becoming common around rifle ranges in 2019. Some super marketing job. The round sold itself,
Everyone seems to think that Hornady introduced it, marketed the hell out of it and everyone and his brother owned two or three rifles chambered with it, two days after it was introduced. Ain't so. All this talk about super marketing. I never saw it. Been in and out of gunshops all these years and the first one I ever saw in the wild was 2017. (and I will admit, I purchased it. and was shocked to see a second in the wild a few days later in another shop).
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If you push X projectile at Y velocity you get Z result.
Hornady have done an incredible job of standardising turn key solutions for high BC projectiles in modern case designs at sufficient velocities, in completely off the shelf packages from multiple manufacturers. You can't fault them for that, at all. Legacy cartridges, chambers and twist rates don't lend themselves to modern high BC projectiles and new shooters don't want to mess with wildcat cartridges, custom barrels/chambers and hand loaded ammo. They want something they can buy off the shelf, take to the range, and pound steel out to absurd distances with. And that's exactly what hornady have given them.
Hornady have done an incredible job of standardising turn key solutions for high BC projectiles in modern case designs at sufficient velocities, in completely off the shelf packages from multiple manufacturers. You can't fault them for that, at all. Legacy cartridges, chambers and twist rates don't lend themselves to modern high BC projectiles and new shooters don't want to mess with wildcat cartridges, custom barrels/chambers and hand loaded ammo. They want something they can buy off the shelf, take to the range, and pound steel out to absurd distances with. And that's exactly what hornady have given them.
Probably one of those people who go around telling everyone what a great mistake it was to drop the M-14 when they’d never even seen a true M-14 much less had to actually use tote one in the jungle
Getting back to the subject at hand, The ARC. Even more rhe 22 ARC, 22GT or 22 Valkyrie. Could a universal lighting system that was cheap, curable help the RO’s spotting hits as well as asking range managers to put clear berms leaving only dirt behind many, if not most target areas, to help in target identification and especially spotting misses.
Simple steps to make the rifle Frank is promoting an even more practical reality.
Making shots easier to spot would encourage a lighter rifle. Even to the point of a fellow showing up with a varmint grade rifle in .223 (obviously with a fast twist barrel) and a decent scope. The 12 to 14 pound rifle that is truly affordable and good enough. A rifle, a shooter actually could get double use. (If he/she so wanted.)
Simple steps to make the rifle Frank is promoting an even more practical reality.
Making shots easier to spot would encourage a lighter rifle. Even to the point of a fellow showing up with a varmint grade rifle in .223 (obviously with a fast twist barrel) and a decent scope. The 12 to 14 pound rifle that is truly affordable and good enough. A rifle, a shooter actually could get double use. (If he/she so wanted.)
It gets better than that.
Look at cartridge dimensions for the 250 Savage and 300 Savage.
A tweak here, an improvement here.
What's old is new again.
25 creedmoor is literally a 250 Savage improved (not the Ackley version) with a fast twist barrel.
The 6 ARC is a very slightly modified 6 PPC.
None of this stuff is new, it's just a modification or copy of something someone did 30-50 years ago.
We get the benefit of better bullets, better chambering and great optics.
Can confirm you can fire a 250 savage in a 25 CM....
6 Arc in a bolt gun with more freebore is a good thing. Great for new shooters to borrow. You can load it on a progressive with CFE and get solid numbers and velocity for PRS. I would only argue that its maybe not as great as a first rifle choice for a new shooter. I would argue that it's easier and more cost efficient to go with a cartridge family and experiment within. Like Creedmoor, GT, or x47. Get one lot of brass, one bushing die, one seating die and you can bounce around between calibers with out much more out of pocket. (22...6...25...6.5) Can't do this with Arc.
Just saying that 6 ARC is fairly niche and great for shooters who've already done their experiments and tried other cartridges. A newer shooter with a newer rifle would probably benefit financially and learning wise from more universal options like a .473 bolt and a wider cartridge family to try.
6 Arc in a bolt gun with more freebore is a good thing. Great for new shooters to borrow. You can load it on a progressive with CFE and get solid numbers and velocity for PRS. I would only argue that its maybe not as great as a first rifle choice for a new shooter. I would argue that it's easier and more cost efficient to go with a cartridge family and experiment within. Like Creedmoor, GT, or x47. Get one lot of brass, one bushing die, one seating die and you can bounce around between calibers with out much more out of pocket. (22...6...25...6.5) Can't do this with Arc.
Just saying that 6 ARC is fairly niche and great for shooters who've already done their experiments and tried other cartridges. A newer shooter with a newer rifle would probably benefit financially and learning wise from more universal options like a .473 bolt and a wider cartridge family to try.
to revisit my thinking, the promotion of the longer range small frame AR cartridges is much bigger than anything bolt action. The AR numbers are huge.
It’s about a quicker, easier, and cheaper entry into the comp sports. It’s a lot in reality and it pushes people away. In my mind pairing the two helps ease people into the sport. While 6.5CM was meant to solve this along with 6CM, it moved away from those in many ways. It’s honestly a bit regional as well discipline specific, though we have a ton of cross over cuz it’s just a touch on target and no energy.
Side note, in the old days when guys moved away from 308 we used to have 1 or 2 stages with Larue targets you had to knock down, we knew it was a bit unfair but it’s how we managed gear. We’d even lean em forward.
But I was thinking more plug in play for guys. If shooters went that way and it fell apart after 700 I get that and that’s not good either and I saw it too so I understand it.
But like noted the 22 ARC stuff is everywhere. I read the numbers and it’s right back to Valkyrie speed + 25fps maybe. You get the bathroom rags in and each one is back to promoting the AR 15 stuff.
Generally speaking the 6.5CM is perfectly fine, but nobody is gonna promote it when the winners come from the 6mm world.
The 6GT is the closet today, but the exclusive stuff has to run out.
It’s about a quicker, easier, and cheaper entry into the comp sports. It’s a lot in reality and it pushes people away. In my mind pairing the two helps ease people into the sport. While 6.5CM was meant to solve this along with 6CM, it moved away from those in many ways. It’s honestly a bit regional as well discipline specific, though we have a ton of cross over cuz it’s just a touch on target and no energy.
Side note, in the old days when guys moved away from 308 we used to have 1 or 2 stages with Larue targets you had to knock down, we knew it was a bit unfair but it’s how we managed gear. We’d even lean em forward.
But I was thinking more plug in play for guys. If shooters went that way and it fell apart after 700 I get that and that’s not good either and I saw it too so I understand it.
But like noted the 22 ARC stuff is everywhere. I read the numbers and it’s right back to Valkyrie speed + 25fps maybe. You get the bathroom rags in and each one is back to promoting the AR 15 stuff.
Generally speaking the 6.5CM is perfectly fine, but nobody is gonna promote it when the winners come from the 6mm world.
The 6GT is the closet today, but the exclusive stuff has to run out.
I posted this in another thread, but here are some real numbers from factory Hornady 22 Arc, from a 20” AR15. Good enough to “move the needle” in that direction for PRS? IDK, but these are factory offerings loaded at AR-safe pressures. A handloaders with a bolt gun should be able to do better in all respects.
And, my apologies to the statisticians, I’m not trying to publish a paper in a peer reviewed journal…
And, my apologies to the statisticians, I’m not trying to publish a paper in a peer reviewed journal…
Those 22ARC numbers are the same as the Valkyrie with the 88s at 2790, the 90s are 2750fps
The 22 has to be over 2850-2900 to work in comps with heavies.
That is why I said WTF the 22 ARC is a repackaged Valkyrie
The 22 has to be over 2850-2900 to work in comps with heavies.
That is why I said WTF the 22 ARC is a repackaged Valkyrie
The 22 arc is a dud IMO. It has no staying power. You really need to get those 85-90 class bullets going about 2900 to take advantage of the BC loss from the 6mils. I think the 6 ARC really maximized the small frame but for 22 caliber, I would step up to a 22 BR/Dasher/GT so you can take advantage of the velocity. 22 Creed at good case fill velocities is probably going to be so overbore you are lucky to get 1000 rounds out of a barrel. Plus you can run at lower pressures in a large frame case vs small frame so you can run in ARs safely.
The other benefit for PRS type shooting, is the added weight and mass of the large frame AR is benefit. Easier to balance and tame the recoil. We just need good mags that can feed BR class cases from an AR.
The other benefit for PRS type shooting, is the added weight and mass of the large frame AR is benefit. Easier to balance and tame the recoil. We just need good mags that can feed BR class cases from an AR.
Which they are downloading the speeds on purpose.
My hand load is 3025fps with the 85.5gr using 27.5gr CFE
The arc after the Valkyrie is silly , the numbers above for the Arc vs the Valk
My hand load is 3025fps with the 85.5gr using 27.5gr CFE
The arc after the Valkyrie is silly , the numbers above for the Arc vs the Valk
Why I was looking at this too, my Valkyrie has just shy of 6000 rounds through it and I know early on Brian Whalen got 8000 out of his when he was doing stuff with JP.
There is no heat, so it lasts much longer.
There is no heat, so it lasts much longer.
I just don't understand how you can get that kinda barrel life when you dont even get that with a 6 BR, which is less overbore and similar charge weights (plus a few grains). CFE is not know for its temp stability.
If thats true, then a 85.5 @ 3K with a long barrel life would save a ton of money in barrels and bullets in a season. Not to mention time in breaking in a new barrel.
If thats true, then a 85.5 @ 3K with a long barrel life would save a ton of money in barrels and bullets in a season. Not to mention time in breaking in a new barrel.
While Hornady publishes both gas gun and bolt gun specific loads in their manual, I imagine there’s a metric butt ton of liability in selling bolt gun specific loadings for a cartridge looked at as primarily at gas gun offering. And, Hornady has already been burned by peeps running Superformance loads in their gas guns and breaking stuff.
That said, the 88gr load is listed as 2820fps on the box. An “aggressive” handloaders can probably get more out of an AR, and can certainly push it harder in a bolt gun. But, we live in a litigious society and Hornady would likely get burned bigly when someone blew up their gas gun with a box of factory bolt gun loads. I mean, it said 22Arc on the box…
My opinion depends on who’s asking. If it’s a guy already knee deep in AR’s & reloading, then 6 ARC is a good option. 6GT is better IMO, but I get what your saying about standardizing caliber across platforms.
If it’s a new shooter that hasn’t yet spent the initiation fee to outfit a reloading bench then I’d recommend 6.5 or 6 Creedmoor in that order. 6.5 is so versatile 100gr VT’s -156eol.
I know there’s a lot of 6 Arc factory ammo, but it’s all neutered for gas guns like the Valk was. Rio just posted above sub 2600 from a 22” gasser. My 22” AR is getting 2640 from factory. Still anemic. With Lever I can get 2710 but Lever is the only real option.
For bolt 6 ARC I consider reloading as a requirement to get past 2800 & the bolt Ammo can’t be used in the AR.
Powder options are way better with a 6GT.
It’s not just the rifle as a barrier to entry. Reloading can easily x 2 entry cost if it’s needed for caliber of choice like 6ARC or 6GT.
Below is the progression of my choices that I’ve shot PRS type matches with. Not claiming there right, just the path I took.
TLDR version:
6.5C
6GT
308 Win.
6.5C
Building 6ARC bolt gun 26” cause why not & have one in AR already. If I’m being honest it’s not cause I wanted to standardize, I just like building guns.
Long version
1. First Long Range rifle purchase was a Steyr THB 6.5 Creed in a Manners. I did practice with it, but never shot a match with it. It didn’t balance well, CG is about 1” into the magwell. Great rifle but not a PRS rig.
2. ARC complete rifle 4th of July Special 6.5C in a Zylo. Shot first PRS matches with this gun & factory Berger 140 hyb. 18lb gun with 1.5lb trigger.
Caught the bug.
3. Finally got reloading set up up to speed.
4. Started chasing gear & built a 6GT in a manners TCS & TT diamond turned down. Shot a few matches with this & started with a few cases of Prime 115RDF. Switched to handloads with Berger 109 & N555. GT is easy load. Just added powder to get the speed (2930) & it shoots tight. I shot a Guardian @Pig River & a Mover stage is burned in my memory. 12rnd 90sec stage from a conex. Andy Slade was RO IiRC & I had brass bouncing all over in there. Hit % was ok, but what burned in my memory was RO saying Dude you had 30+ seconds left
. My time management sucked. Finished 10th in the match & self taught to this point. I obviously could benefit from some training.
5. Took Franks class in PA & took the ARC 6.5C 130 berger handloads (2960). Took the 6.5 & loaded spicy cause I wanted a bit of recoil for the class. During class gun weight was right at 18lb. Sure as shit on my eval Frank and Mark said my recoil management was poor. Not only did I lack any training, I’d likely picked up some bad habits from the match shooting using a 21lb 6GT with a 10-12oz single stage trigger. Second day of the class I was seeing trace for the first time from 400 out.
6. Although my recoil management was much improved after the class it got me thinking & I decided to drop a 308 in that Zylo for the following year. Tuning the trigger puller as opposed to gear was my mindset.
7. Repeated Franks class with the 308 & my fundamentals were improved. Also kind of standardized on Huber 2 stage with 1.5 - 2lb triggers. Did pretty well in the Major Land match with that 308.
8. This year I had a 13.5lb 6.5C 18” gas gun Suppressed for the class & Major Land match. The work with the 308 seems to have payed off. Able to spot shots pretty well with the gas gun. Bad zero was eating my lunch on the LR stages (lesson learned) but stage 20 was my bright spot. KYL @ UKD with any miss zeroing the stage. This was last stage for my squad and the KYL was part 2 of the stage after pistol & running up a fucking hill 200+y. Despite the heavy breathing I was able to see every shot on plate and adjust hold to clean it.
9. Building a 6ARC bolt gun now. It will mirror my 308 in a matching Zylo. I plan to shoot some positional drills with 2 almost identical rifles accept for caliber. This will be videoed using the Shooter Global stuff. I’m genuinely curious to see actual data on videos with just a cartridge difference. Then I’ll repeat with a chassis swap to a Vision Pro for the 6ARC.
In between the above I also built a 22GT, 6.5PRC, 224Valk (AR), 6ARC (AR), 223 W bolt, 223 W (AR), 6.5C (AR), & 308 (AR)
With plenty of choices I find myself drawn to the 6.5C & 308 latley. Hard to train for recoil when shooting something that has none. Same for trigger press 10oz vs 1.5lb.
Honestly I think some of the worst caliber advice for someone entering PRS type shooting is to get a 223 trainer. Fuck that, it’ll just reinforce competition scars. Train with a 6.5 or 308. They will reward good fundamentals. Ammo cost is higher but ROI is worth it IMO.
If it’s a new shooter that hasn’t yet spent the initiation fee to outfit a reloading bench then I’d recommend 6.5 or 6 Creedmoor in that order. 6.5 is so versatile 100gr VT’s -156eol.
I know there’s a lot of 6 Arc factory ammo, but it’s all neutered for gas guns like the Valk was. Rio just posted above sub 2600 from a 22” gasser. My 22” AR is getting 2640 from factory. Still anemic. With Lever I can get 2710 but Lever is the only real option.
For bolt 6 ARC I consider reloading as a requirement to get past 2800 & the bolt Ammo can’t be used in the AR.
Powder options are way better with a 6GT.
It’s not just the rifle as a barrier to entry. Reloading can easily x 2 entry cost if it’s needed for caliber of choice like 6ARC or 6GT.
Below is the progression of my choices that I’ve shot PRS type matches with. Not claiming there right, just the path I took.
TLDR version:
6.5C
6GT
308 Win.
6.5C
Building 6ARC bolt gun 26” cause why not & have one in AR already. If I’m being honest it’s not cause I wanted to standardize, I just like building guns.
Long version
1. First Long Range rifle purchase was a Steyr THB 6.5 Creed in a Manners. I did practice with it, but never shot a match with it. It didn’t balance well, CG is about 1” into the magwell. Great rifle but not a PRS rig.
2. ARC complete rifle 4th of July Special 6.5C in a Zylo. Shot first PRS matches with this gun & factory Berger 140 hyb. 18lb gun with 1.5lb trigger.
Caught the bug.
3. Finally got reloading set up up to speed.
4. Started chasing gear & built a 6GT in a manners TCS & TT diamond turned down. Shot a few matches with this & started with a few cases of Prime 115RDF. Switched to handloads with Berger 109 & N555. GT is easy load. Just added powder to get the speed (2930) & it shoots tight. I shot a Guardian @Pig River & a Mover stage is burned in my memory. 12rnd 90sec stage from a conex. Andy Slade was RO IiRC & I had brass bouncing all over in there. Hit % was ok, but what burned in my memory was RO saying Dude you had 30+ seconds left
. My time management sucked. Finished 10th in the match & self taught to this point. I obviously could benefit from some training.5. Took Franks class in PA & took the ARC 6.5C 130 berger handloads (2960). Took the 6.5 & loaded spicy cause I wanted a bit of recoil for the class. During class gun weight was right at 18lb. Sure as shit on my eval Frank and Mark said my recoil management was poor. Not only did I lack any training, I’d likely picked up some bad habits from the match shooting using a 21lb 6GT with a 10-12oz single stage trigger. Second day of the class I was seeing trace for the first time from 400 out.
6. Although my recoil management was much improved after the class it got me thinking & I decided to drop a 308 in that Zylo for the following year. Tuning the trigger puller as opposed to gear was my mindset.
7. Repeated Franks class with the 308 & my fundamentals were improved. Also kind of standardized on Huber 2 stage with 1.5 - 2lb triggers. Did pretty well in the Major Land match with that 308.
8. This year I had a 13.5lb 6.5C 18” gas gun Suppressed for the class & Major Land match. The work with the 308 seems to have payed off. Able to spot shots pretty well with the gas gun. Bad zero was eating my lunch on the LR stages (lesson learned) but stage 20 was my bright spot. KYL @ UKD with any miss zeroing the stage. This was last stage for my squad and the KYL was part 2 of the stage after pistol & running up a fucking hill 200+y. Despite the heavy breathing I was able to see every shot on plate and adjust hold to clean it.
9. Building a 6ARC bolt gun now. It will mirror my 308 in a matching Zylo. I plan to shoot some positional drills with 2 almost identical rifles accept for caliber. This will be videoed using the Shooter Global stuff. I’m genuinely curious to see actual data on videos with just a cartridge difference. Then I’ll repeat with a chassis swap to a Vision Pro for the 6ARC.
In between the above I also built a 22GT, 6.5PRC, 224Valk (AR), 6ARC (AR), 223 W bolt, 223 W (AR), 6.5C (AR), & 308 (AR)
With plenty of choices I find myself drawn to the 6.5C & 308 latley. Hard to train for recoil when shooting something that has none. Same for trigger press 10oz vs 1.5lb.
Honestly I think some of the worst caliber advice for someone entering PRS type shooting is to get a 223 trainer. Fuck that, it’ll just reinforce competition scars. Train with a 6.5 or 308. They will reward good fundamentals. Ammo cost is higher but ROI is worth it IMO.
I’ve thought about doing a 6ARC bolt-gun at some point, I have an Origin, so I’d just need a $125 bolt head and a $500 Proof prefit, then a $80 mag or two…
If it’d do ~2700-2750fps with Varget/N140 out of a 26” without having to stomp on the brass it’d probably be a nice low recoil option.
That said, I moved from 6CM to 6GT a couple of years ago and all it cost me was a new barrel… and it’s a pussycat recoil-wise at 2800-2850fps and my brass lasts forever.
If it’d do ~2700-2750fps with Varget/N140 out of a 26” without having to stomp on the brass it’d probably be a nice low recoil option.
That said, I moved from 6CM to 6GT a couple of years ago and all it cost me was a new barrel… and it’s a pussycat recoil-wise at 2800-2850fps and my brass lasts forever.
You want to minimize the brass goblins, they are the biggest delayers of stages and remember for every 60 competitors every minute is an hour ... if you are waiting for that one guy to find that piece of brass, it's time and we all know ROs let em.
Brass prep is a thing and reloading for some is not an option in the beginning.
Cost of entire process for a new shooter is expensive time consuming and really shouldn't be the only way to place. The 6GT is the best option if you start fresh, but there its a TON Of guys who shoot ARs and the AR crowd runs to these calibers and cartridges so if you can piggy back on their love for the 6ARC in an Gas Gun, you can then pair them with a bolt action a reasonable price that is, "match ready" in many ways. We know reloading gets you the podium but factory gets you in the game.
That is why I laughed at some of my critics who say, I don't do this or that or my comp scores are not high, cuz I never reload and that is factor. Reloading right now is needed, if you had a factory divisions that used factory ammo, no, but when it's all pretty much OPEN ammo wise, a guy with factory ammo will rarely place unless they get lucky.
So is the sales pitch, 6 Dasher, all the reloading, all the education or forget it, or honestly if you look at the advice on FB it's all to WIN or place and nothing to show. So the advice is big dollar up front. You have to do this or you won't be competitive is what they say... that turns people off. I have a 6.5CM and you tell me I need a 6Dasher... not coming to your game.
I am lookin for a path for people that doesn't intimidate them
Brass prep is a thing and reloading for some is not an option in the beginning.
Cost of entire process for a new shooter is expensive time consuming and really shouldn't be the only way to place. The 6GT is the best option if you start fresh, but there its a TON Of guys who shoot ARs and the AR crowd runs to these calibers and cartridges so if you can piggy back on their love for the 6ARC in an Gas Gun, you can then pair them with a bolt action a reasonable price that is, "match ready" in many ways. We know reloading gets you the podium but factory gets you in the game.
That is why I laughed at some of my critics who say, I don't do this or that or my comp scores are not high, cuz I never reload and that is factor. Reloading right now is needed, if you had a factory divisions that used factory ammo, no, but when it's all pretty much OPEN ammo wise, a guy with factory ammo will rarely place unless they get lucky.
So is the sales pitch, 6 Dasher, all the reloading, all the education or forget it, or honestly if you look at the advice on FB it's all to WIN or place and nothing to show. So the advice is big dollar up front. You have to do this or you won't be competitive is what they say... that turns people off. I have a 6.5CM and you tell me I need a 6Dasher... not coming to your game.
I am lookin for a path for people that doesn't intimidate them
Nobody makes bolt guns in 220 russian bolt-face that are widely available at LGS.
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Brass doesn't really effect match flow. Either a brass buddy shags it or you grab it all at the end of your squad's firing. The next quad still is waiting for people to show up , needs a brief and time to get their stuff together.
People who bitch about brass must shoot some really poor run matches. Doesn't seem to be a problem in the vast majority. You are going to loose 5-10% at a match anyway, its part of the baked in cost. Like always on here, most of the people bitching about problems at matches, don't actually shoot matches.
Even if I shoot factory ammo, I still pickup my brass. That's .20-.50 CPP, which offsets cost of shooting factory ammo. Most people aren't going to throw away $25-100 worth of brass at a match. Even shitty hornady brass has some value.
People who bitch about brass must shoot some really poor run matches. Doesn't seem to be a problem in the vast majority. You are going to loose 5-10% at a match anyway, its part of the baked in cost. Like always on here, most of the people bitching about problems at matches, don't actually shoot matches.
Even if I shoot factory ammo, I still pickup my brass. That's .20-.50 CPP, which offsets cost of shooting factory ammo. Most people aren't going to throw away $25-100 worth of brass at a match. Even shitty hornady brass has some value.
Yep, find a brass buddy or make it so it’s easy to spot in the pile. As stated, you will never get it all back
It’s been a couple of years now, but I shot behind a guy shooting Berger factory 6.5CM ammunition (He was in the squad in front of mine). He must have been a high dollar lawyer, or hand surgeon, or something, because he left every piece of brass on the deck. For those unaware, Berger is (or was at the time) loaded in Lapua brass.
Having a son attend matches with you means always having a personal brass goblin shagging brass for you. Of course, I’m doing the same for him. It is funny how many guys will stand around (not spotting, not gaming the stage, not writing dope, just converting O2 into CO2) blissfully unaware that they could move 3 ft, squat down, open their mits and the brass will just fling into them.
And yeah, the biggest time drain at a match is that no one seems to be able to read the stage brief before they are at that stage. For fucks sake, you were the first person in the squad to shoot the last stage, and had 45 minutes to get ready for this stage. Your mags aren’t loaded, you haven’t written anything on your dope card, and you don’t have the foggiest idea what you’re doing here? Did you go out for drinks while the rest of us were shooting?
And maybe I’m just blessed with luck, but I’ve never had a problem with the Caldwell mesh brass catchers in an AR- except remembering to attach it before a stage.
I was a range officer last month, it was an issue, granted it was a mixed crowd, bigger variety in shooter than most matches but I saw it. I'm a pretty quick turnaround when I RO, guys got in my way. Sure it's minor but in the big picture everything adds up... there are a lot of different matches and styles out there, and not everyone goes to a places that holds multiple matches, so only do 1 a year and it's crappy in my opinion.
Sure the Guardians I never see a flow issue, but I have seen it, the local matches have eliminated the flow issues too but think about that, the same people shoot it month to month os you know them. Start adding in new people you need a process
I will note several military teams had to bring back dunnage too
Sure the Guardians I never see a flow issue, but I have seen it, the local matches have eliminated the flow issues too but think about that, the same people shoot it month to month os you know them. Start adding in new people you need a process
I will note several military teams had to bring back dunnage too
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Not poke holes at your contrived stages, but brass in your matches isn’t an issue cuz you all don’t move, you walk 3 steps and plant yourself on a prop, so all the brass is in one places.
When you go to matches with movement and distance to cover lol
I watched a Douglas WY SHC video today the shooters had to run up a mountain shooting pistol as they went to reach the rifle shots. 5 minute stages, guys are outta breathe
My mindset is different, this video presents it well.
When you go to matches with movement and distance to cover lol
I watched a Douglas WY SHC video today the shooters had to run up a mountain shooting pistol as they went to reach the rifle shots. 5 minute stages, guys are outta breathe
My mindset is different, this video presents it well.
85.5s @ 2800+ with a 26” barrel in a 223 rem case is easily doable. 23-25gr powder depending on what you use. Same performance as a 6 BR or dasher not pushed to its limit. I actually built a 22 BR but i can’t get enough extra speed to justify it over a basic 223, so it sits in the safe. And yes, it’s way cheaper to shoot and barrels last forever.
If you think the 6 CM and GT are pussy cats...
Light off a whole 30gr of powder under a 105-112gr bullet in a 22# rifle. With a 26" barrel, you'll get your 2800, maybe more.
Seeing trace and making impacts to 1k is just stupid easy. 1200 isn't hard.
I shot in a squad with a 223AI, pretty sure he was top 10 in open,
I came in 9th locally a few years back with an RPR in 223, aced all the inside 600 stuff
I came in 9th locally a few years back with an RPR in 223, aced all the inside 600 stuff
The squads I've shot in do a good job grabbing brass for each other. I know I'm going to lose some and I don't sweat it. You should buy enough to cover the losses. The only time I was a little sad about brass was a run n gun that I shot my light 6.5 bolt gun in. I'm sure I left at least 50, maybe more, pieces of lapua out there.
I don't get too hyped on the 6 ARC in a bolt gun when it's easier to just run BR or Dasher with the brass options these days. Mags are not an issue in my opinion either. I have recommended it to guys that want a little 6mm and are going to shoot factory ammo, and my favorite thing about the 6 ARC is the 103 and 108's are very good at putting game down. 6 ARC is a killer. Speeds aren't that great, I have 20" and 16" Seekins AR's. The 20" was the right choice in another run n gun I did. CFE and LVR give the best velocity, but they are damn dirty--bought a flow through can specifically for these cartridges. Looking forward to eventually running thermal on the 16".
I have a 22" 22 ARC (AR), and the ballistics are more impressive. Can get 2850 with 85.5's and low 2800's with 90 A-Tips. Have pushed both to 2900, but it's clearly wrecking brass, and I don't want to shear a lug. Took that barrel off and put the 16" 6 ARC barrel on simply because it was so dirty to shoot. Will revisit it at some point, but I wasn't in love with it and decided to just keep things simple from an ammo standpoint and have 2 6 ARCs. My bolt guns in standard bolt faces can do everything better. I have a long throated 223 barrel for my bighorn that will shoot 80 eldms at 2800 from a 22", and I've never really stepped on it or tried to see what the 85.5's will do. I think a 22 arc would be decently fun in a bolt gun.
I don't get too hyped on the 6 ARC in a bolt gun when it's easier to just run BR or Dasher with the brass options these days. Mags are not an issue in my opinion either. I have recommended it to guys that want a little 6mm and are going to shoot factory ammo, and my favorite thing about the 6 ARC is the 103 and 108's are very good at putting game down. 6 ARC is a killer. Speeds aren't that great, I have 20" and 16" Seekins AR's. The 20" was the right choice in another run n gun I did. CFE and LVR give the best velocity, but they are damn dirty--bought a flow through can specifically for these cartridges. Looking forward to eventually running thermal on the 16".
I have a 22" 22 ARC (AR), and the ballistics are more impressive. Can get 2850 with 85.5's and low 2800's with 90 A-Tips. Have pushed both to 2900, but it's clearly wrecking brass, and I don't want to shear a lug. Took that barrel off and put the 16" 6 ARC barrel on simply because it was so dirty to shoot. Will revisit it at some point, but I wasn't in love with it and decided to just keep things simple from an ammo standpoint and have 2 6 ARCs. My bolt guns in standard bolt faces can do everything better. I have a long throated 223 barrel for my bighorn that will shoot 80 eldms at 2800 from a 22", and I've never really stepped on it or tried to see what the 85.5's will do. I think a 22 arc would be decently fun in a bolt gun.
Honestly picking up brass is just part of the game.
If I were shooting comps where I was expected to loose my brass, yet to be competitive needed to shoot a gamer cartridge I just wouldn't bother.
There's a big difference between shooting cheap, bulk 223/308 and expensive handloaded 6BRA/6.5x47L.
If you try and treat these as the same it'll just become a race to see who has the most money to spend on expensive brass for their exotic cartridge.
I get the idea of where you are going with the 22/6 ARC idea, but if you are shooting PRS type matches (with small targets and tight times) then eventually you'll end up in the same place where we are now. Either the CoF is set up so guys can be competitive with factory ammo (and the guys who reload will have an easier time (more accurate, faster, etc)) or you set targets and times difficult enough to challenge those who handload then guys with factory ammo will be uncompetitive.
If I were shooting comps where I was expected to loose my brass, yet to be competitive needed to shoot a gamer cartridge I just wouldn't bother.
There's a big difference between shooting cheap, bulk 223/308 and expensive handloaded 6BRA/6.5x47L.
If you try and treat these as the same it'll just become a race to see who has the most money to spend on expensive brass for their exotic cartridge.
I get the idea of where you are going with the 22/6 ARC idea, but if you are shooting PRS type matches (with small targets and tight times) then eventually you'll end up in the same place where we are now. Either the CoF is set up so guys can be competitive with factory ammo (and the guys who reload will have an easier time (more accurate, faster, etc)) or you set targets and times difficult enough to challenge those who handload then guys with factory ammo will be uncompetitive.
I don't mind at all helping other's get their brass. They help me get mine. Even cheap Hornady brass runs 3/4 of a buck. And it lasts as does just about every other brand if you anneal regularly and don't try to push it too hard. And the thought was several years ago, shoo the cheap stuff at matches cause you're going to loose some anyway (saving the good stuff for what?).
My worry is doing my best to stay out of other's way.
My worry is doing my best to stay out of other's way.
This has been my question as well. I’ve always assumed that the good stuff was saved for bragging in the reloading section about the brass you use.
I think that most can see that brass “can” be a problem. And, a match that drags at every stage is less enjoyable than one that flows smoothly.
I was squadded with a guy once that took it as his job to bitch and moan about how slow that match was going. Yeah it was dragging a bit, and we appeared to be behind the slow squad, but fuck it wasn’t moving considerably worse than normal. I don’t know what he was rushing to get home to, but it must have been a root canal appointment, because he sure was a sour fuck.
New guys are what really slow a match- them and poor match design. LL’s near singular focus is on getting new shooters into the sport. And, he doesn’t give one singular fuck about established shooters, or the larger establishment. This thread seems to be another piece to that puzzle. A rifle that a new shooter wants to buy (as opposed to needs to buy), chambered in a cartridge they are familiar with, with readily available factory ammunition, that is competitive in the bolt gun games (I’m going to define “competitive” as a new competitor is limited by his/her skill and not the gun/ammo/gear.)
I’m starting to think that this site isn’t the right place to ask these questions. It’s the definition of preaching to the choir. Instead of posting questions to shooters that do shoot competitively, the questions need to be asked to shooters that don’t compete, but are curious about it. Everyone that competes has already overcome the largest hurdle, getting to the first match. So, how do you get them to that match, and then bring them back after they take their lumps? A rifle they WANT to shoot is part of that.
If you see someone in your squad not doing anything, say something. I tell people all the time they need to help get brass or spot. Some just don't know the eticate and some are lazy. Either way being polite but asking them to help makes match and squad flow much better. I'll be damned if I'm getting people's brass, spotting and helping everyone while someone is sitting on their ass doing nothing. There are two famous shooters who are notorious lazy selfish dickheads and I have told both to their face they are shitty people. I refuse to squad with either. Surprised it hasn't made a podcast yet but I really dgaf. The more everyone works together the quicker we can get done and go home. Being the last squad while everyone waits is a shitty feeling.
It would be a neat experiment in both enrollment and shortened match time if brass pickup was only permitted at the end of the shooting day.
-Stan
-Stan
How did we go from the topic of which cartridges to use to whining about picking up brass.
Thank you for the complement in the first sentence.This has been my question as well. I’ve always assumed that the good stuff was saved for bragging in the reloading section about the brass you use.
Everyone that competes has already overcome the largest hurdle, getting to the first match.
Now about that last part, when you get to be my age, its not getting to the first match that matters, its being able to get up out of bed, get the bones moving, actually get in the truck (dressed) and actually make it to the Next Match
Says the man who just won the powerball lottery and has forgotten the value of money
Less a powerball winner and more someone who unhealthily takes joy in causing adult tantrums.
-Stan
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