The Cartridge Conundrum

[nocoolname]

I’m starting to think that this site isn’t the right place to ask these questions. It’s the definition of preaching to the choir. Instead of posting questions to shooters that do shoot competitively, the questions need to be asked to shooters that don’t compete, but are curious about it. Everyone that competes has already overcome the largest hurdle, getting to the first match. So, how do you get them to that match, and then bring them back after they take their lumps? A rifle they WANT to shoot is part of that.

I've done one PRS style match about 3 years ago, and a couple of belly matches here and there. I've got 2 buddies that I've gotten into long range shooting but they're afraid of competing. They have rifles they like to shoot but they don't have equipment; no tripods, one rear bag, shooting factory ammo, no kestrel, no high end binos.

I feel this thread has hit on how to get people into the sport or make it appealing to more. It's been stated that everyone and their brother have an AR. There's also a lot of ranges that don't go out to 1k yds. Why isn't there a starter class? Make an AR only 3-700ish yds, limit gear to a bipod and one support bag for the whole comp. Factory ammo only. Have some movement so it's not barricade benchrest. Pretty much minimal gear, minimal barriers to entry.

 

[Rob01]

Let's see, it was first introduced in 2007, as a long range target round, by Dave Emary of Hornady and Dennis Demille of Creedmoor sports. It languished for eight to ten YEARS before the PRS crowd began to pick up on it. Finally around 2017, it caught hold and finding a rifle anywhere in 6.5 Creedmoor was impossible. Finally becoming common around rifle ranges in 2019. Some super marketing job. The round sold itself,

Everyone seems to think that Hornady introduced it, marketed the hell out of it and everyone and his brother owned two or three rifles chambered with it, two days after it was introduced. Ain't so. All this talk about super marketing. I never saw it. Been in and out of gunshops all these years and the first one I ever saw in the wild was 2017. (and I will admit, I purchased it. and was shocked to see a second in the wild a few days later in another shop).

Wrong. It was being used in what are now called “PRS” matches in early 2008. Right @Lowlight?

 

[beetroot]

I've done one PRS style match about 3 years ago, and a couple of belly matches here and there. I've got 2 buddies that I've gotten into long range shooting but they're afraid of competing. They have rifles they like to shoot but they don't have equipment; no tripods, one rear bag, shooting factory ammo, no kestrel, no high end binos.

I feel this thread has hit on how to get people into the sport or make it appealing to more. It's been stated that everyone and their brother have an AR. There's also a lot of ranges that don't go out to 1k yds. Why isn't there a starter class? Make an AR only 3-700ish yds, limit gear to a bipod and one support bag for the whole comp. Factory ammo only. Have some movement so it's not barricade benchrest. Pretty much minimal gear, minimal barriers to entry.

If you want to have a CoF for new shooters to be competitive in an existing match, it's going to be far too easy for more experienced shooter.
You then look at running two different CoFs in a single match, different targets, stage rules, props etc, then it's more work for MDs.

It's not just a starter/newbie class that's required though, you are talking about running an entirely different match.

PRS/IPRF can be the Formula 1 of the shooting world (or not if you think they are arseholes), local matches, outlaw matches, field shoots, NRL22, NRL hunter, run and gun, etc are the F2/F3/go-karting, and the way to attract new people into the sport.

There is basically no realistic way to attract new shooters into a proper PRS match, the barrier for entry is just too high.
Even if it wasn't for the extra crap you need (tripod, glass, game changer, etc) the level of precision in your ammo and dope you are expected to turn up with is way higher than casual shooters usually have.
I've seen it plenty of times where a new shooter turns up with hundreds of dollars of factory ammo for their first comp and throws almost all of it into the dirt, which isn't fun for anyone.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Wrong. It was being used in what are now called “PRS” matches in early 2008. Right @Lowlight?

Wrong? I am not wrong, I am never wrong, it’s the rest of the world that is wrong but not I, I am always never wrong.

 

[nocoolname]

If you want to have a CoF for new shooters to be competitive in an existing match, it's going to be far too easy for more experienced shooter.
You then look at running two different CoFs in a single match, different targets, stage rules, props etc, then it's more work for MDs.

It's not just a starter/newbie class that's required though, you are talking about running an entirely different match.

PRS/IPRF can be the Formula 1 of the shooting world (or not if you think they are arseholes), local matches, outlaw matches, field shoots, NRL22, NRL hunter, run and gun, etc are the F2/F3/go-karting, and the way to attract new people into the sport.

There is basically no realistic way to attract new shooters into a proper PRS match, the barrier for entry is just too high.
Even if it wasn't for the extra crap you need (tripod, glass, game changer, etc) the level of precision in your ammo and dope you are expected to turn up with is way higher than casual shooters usually have.
I've seen it plenty of times where a new shooter turns up with hundreds of dollars of factory ammo for their first comp and throws almost all of it into the dirt, which isn't fun for anyone.

That's a better way of looking at it than my idea. The thing is how do you advertise to get these matches out and get more people interested though. I hear of a few NRL22 matches around me and do plan to compete in a few this year, I'm in a run and gun group on FB. But the local and outlaw matches near me aren't that local, at least not the ones I hear about.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

If you want to have a CoF for new shooters to be competitive in an existing match, it's going to be far too easy for more experienced shooter.
You then look at running two different CoFs in a single match, different targets, stage rules, props etc, then it's more work for MDs.

You make what is easy too hard. You don’t need two different courses of fire. You have stages that are relatively easy and stages that are challenging. Suits both the beginner and the seasoned competitors. I’ve shot at matches like this where the COF contains a varied level of targets. It works.

 

[Lowlight]

Remember I helped create what was supposed to be the “establishment” and when it was corrupted from the original intent, myself and others walked away from a singular group focus.

I was just a dangerous messenger so they had to manage my reach.

These matches started at Rifles Only and he’s not part of the system. A clue there, the guy that started it disagrees with the direction too.

I am looking in other places (disciplines) and observing what they are doing and saying which is why I’m guiding my questions a certain way, instead of saying, do it like this or else.

I’m genuinely asking, even if the answers are all over the place, I can read between the lines, like saying in one post brass doesn’t slow anyone down then have 4 examples of how it happens and the physical steps needed to not be the last squad on the line. I can decipher the issues needed to considered. I’m not as unfamiliar as they want you to believe. I make things flow.

 

[Lowlight]

Posted without comment

 

[ma smith]

Remember I helped create what was supposed to be the “establishment” and when it was corrupted from the original intent, myself and others walked away from a singular group focus.

I was just a dangerous messenger so they had to manage my reach.

These matches started at Rifles Only and he’s not part of the system. A clue there, the guy that started it disagrees with the direction too.

I am looking in other places (disciplines) and observing what they are doing and saying which is why I’m guiding my questions a certain way, instead of saying, do it like this or else.

I’m genuinely asking, even if the answers are all over the place, I can read between the lines, like saying in one post brass doesn’t slow anyone down then have 4 examples of how it happens and the physical steps needed to not be the last squad on the line. I can decipher the issues needed to considered. I’m not as unfamiliar as they want you to believe. I make things flow.

Land owners are not (universally) going to listen to MDs complaining they "need" to go home 30 minutes early, so they leaving 5 to 10 thousand pieces of litter behind on the range...That just sounds like something that's not going to happen...

 

[Lowlight]

Nobody is saying leave a mess lol

 

[Rob01]

Consider the brass chasers, why do they chase the brass, hard to find, hard to work it, don't want to lose one. Think about that, they are coveting brass... when brass the expendable part of the equation has that much value you missed the objective.
nicely

Saw this first hand back in 2004 in my team mates. The .243 was coming into the sport and I built one buy my two team mates, who Lowlight knows well, bought into a .243 variant with the shoulder blown out and you had to fireform it because they were told you would get a little more velocity, maybe 50-100fps, and longer barrel life. First part was true and second part wasn’t but first part didn’t even matter much as both were plenty fast enough even back then when everyone was hotrodding their loads as flatter was better when you didn’t always know the range to target.

So I buy 500 pieces of brass and go have fun. If I lost some at a match it was no big deal but my buddies were hunting and pecking like a couple chickens after every stage as they couldn’t lose one piece of brass. I just chuckled and busted their balls. I still chuckle seeing similar at matches. lol

 

[EbTac]

So I buy 500 pieces of brass and go have fun. If I lost some at a match it was no big deal but my buddies were hunting and pecking like a couple chickens after every stage as they couldn’t lose one piece of brass. I just chuckled and busted their balls. I still chuckle seeing similar at matches.

Seeing guys take forever hunting for a piece of brass is like nails on a chalk board to me. If I find 8 out of 10 really quick I always say I donated to the range gods with those lost pieces. Brass is consumable. Let it go

 

[ma smith]

Pick up your brass and don't be a slob...

Its leave no trace 101, you pack out your garbage...

 

[Makinchips208]

Pick up your brass and don't be a slob...

Its leave no trace 101, you pack out your garbage...

This is where child labor comes in handy.

 

[Rob01]

Pick up your brass and don't be a slob...

Its leave no trace 101, you pack out your garbage...

Not about being a slob but keeping the stages moving. The last squad on the stage can pick up their brass and any others if the match is on a range where it needs to be 100% picked up but not all ranges are like that. Some left over brass is like putting down some small stones for decorations as it is a rifle range. lol

 

[ma smith]

This is where child labor comes in handy.

I know right...

This is the funniest Tangent in this thread...

 

[Tritiumdials]

Pick up your brass and don't be a slob...

Its leave no trace 101, you pack out your garbage...

Rimfire guys reading your comment.

 

[Lowlight]

Saw this first hand back in 2004 in my team mates. The .243 was coming into the sport and I built one buy my two team mates, who Lowlight knows well, bought into a .243 variant with the shoulder blown out and you had to fireform it because they were told you would get a little more velocity, maybe 50-100fps, and longer barrel life. First part was true and second part wasn’t but first part didn’t even matter much as both were plenty fast enough even back then when everyone was hotrodding their loads as flatter was better when you didn’t always know the range to target.

So I buy 500 pieces of brass and go have fun. If I lost some at a match it was no big deal but my buddies were hunting and pecking like a couple chickens after every stage as they couldn’t lose one piece of brass. I just chuckled and busted their balls. I still chuckle seeing similar at matches. lol

I was at the Brawl and I saw Jorge get out of his chair and crawl under the excavator trailer which never moved for 15 years looking for “A” piece of Dasher brass before the new stuff.

I was like, damn Jorge something under there is gonna bite ya and kill ya for a single piece of brass, South Texas is the last place I’m crawling under an old anything

 

[beetroot]

View attachment 8581142

Rimfire guys reading your comment.

I do pick up my 22 brass most of the time. Obviously not at a range or a competition, but if shooting on my own land or other private property I try not to leave 200 pieces of brass behind every time I shoot.

 

[Kadams1563]

I do pick up my 22 brass most of the time. Obviously not at a range or a competition, but if shooting on my own land or other private property I try not to leave 200 pieces of brass behind every time I shoot.

lol I’ll try and remember a picture tom of where we shoot rimfire. Probably 10k pieces there right now slowly sinking in the ground.

 

[hlee]

In 1000 years, abandoned gun ranges will be the only reliable sources of lead, copper, and zinc. Do your part for future generations…

 

[anon]

Is Hornady going to sell the 6 ARC Bolt Load pressure ammo as loaded ammo?

Hornady lists the 108 ELD-M G7 as 0.270, they list the 88 ELD-M G7 as 0.274. For the 5.56 NATO they have 6 different powders showing 2700 fps, and one of those, Win 748, up to 2750. That is with a 20" barrel. Their 6 ARC Bolt Data in a 24" barrel, has 4 powders at 2800 fps, and one of those up to 2850.

Lapua advertises their 105 Scenar 6 BR at 2674, that is consistent with what I've seen from their boxed ammo. I am interested to see real numbers from a bolt gun shooting boxed 6 ARC ammo.

I'm not throwing shade on the 6 ARC Bolt numbers, I haven't shot any of it, but their 88 ELD-M is a good bullet. I have shot it. I have also shot 223 F/TR and 223 Service Rifle at 1000 and understand the challenge of hitting a 2 moa target at those ranges.

But, numbers wise, the 88 ELD-M hangs with the 108 ELD-M.

I would be interested to know the industry wide rounds shot per lug failure on both the .378" bolts and the .441" bolts.

The Ruger RPR's like LL shot were marked 5.56 NATO. Hornady could sell a 5.56 NATO with the 88 ELD-M loaded correctly and call it 5.56 NATO Long, or Long Range. It would feed from the 5.56 RPR mag, and some other currently available AICS pattern mags.

Someone needs to convince Ruger to build up some Custom Shop 5.56 NATO RPR's and get Hornady to make 88 ELD-M NATO ammo, and then go show how it can be done.

Service Rifle AR's have been fed long loads for what, 30 years now? The bolt world needs to catch up.

One could even have a 223/5.56 only class. Sure it will not reach as far, but can still teach and exercise the basics. Hell, run some of those matches as factory boxed ammo only. Surely, Hornady could get behind that.

 

[anon]

Also, to address the low energy impacts, just use any of the now available hit indicators. Hornady's product even.

Well?

 

[anon]

If someone wanted to get really inventive, make the hit indicators wifi capable, write the software to watch a full match's hits real time.

 

[Lowlight]

That would be the best, numbers wise this would be no problem to match work

I understand the real life limitations as I saw them with the Valkyrie but I also felt reloading the Valkyrie to 2950fps changed the game for the cartridge.

2800-2850 should be easy with an ARC in a bolt gun and I ordered a Terminus to see, it’s just a bolt and barrel easy to replace. Heck I keep my spare bolt behind the seat anyway

It might be them being risk adverse since I know they can go faster but choose not too

 

[rlsmith1]

If companies are going to do gas gun and bolt gun loadings, why not do the bolt guns with a hybrid case (steel base) and really make more speed? I'm hoping to load my 16" 25 CM with hybrid cases and am hopeful the velocity is close to standard barrel length

 

[hlee]

If companies are going to do gas gun and bolt gun loadings, why not do the bolt guns with a hybrid case (steel base) and really make more speed? I'm hoping to load my 16" 25 CM with hybrid cases and am hopeful the velocity is close to standard barrel length

Probably because $3+ per round is a non-starter for factory ammunition…

 

[ma smith]

Probably because $3+ per round is a non-starter for factory ammunition…

.585 boltface crew

 

[hlee]

.585 boltface crew

Perhaps, but we’re talking about 6ARC. And, you just know some mouth breather would blow one up in his AR, then sue…

 

[Lowlight]

Somebody’s a tattle tale, lol

 

[357Max]

@rlsmith1 - Mentioned the hybrid cases and it got me thinking.

I've used converted Fury Hybrid cases from a 18" 6.5 Creedmoor 135 A-tips @2740. They worked well, but they're a whole bunch of work to convert, to much!

Those Hybrids check none of the boxes For any of Franks points.............but!

A different kind of hybrid could check damn near all @Lowlight points.

Might be a worthy of some discussions at shot.

1. Affordable brass that is 1 and done. Actually SS, not brass.
2. Can easily be picked up with a magnet to clean up range.
3. To load, they is no need for cleaning, annealing, FL sizing. Just Prime, drop powder, & seat your favorite pill.
4. + 8% powder capacity. In currently available 5.56 cases it basically has the capacity of an Ackley Improved 223 case
5. The 5.56 is around .26 per case. At that price I have no issue leaving it where it lands. Just my time returned via no brass prep is worth it.

The next few items/ideas is where the discussion is needed.

6. These are 2 piece cases meaning they can easily put a 5.56 case head on a Grendel body. See where I'm headed.
7. With a .373 bolt in an AR now the upper PSI limit for 6ARC/22ARC should be same as a bolt gun.
8. If factory Ammo was loaded for the above I suppose some idiot could and would put it in a std 6ARC. Thing is it wouldn't extract & cases are good to 70,000+psi.
9. As a Yuge bonus the ARC cases now sport a 37gr capacity. This puts them in the sweet spot for temp stable powders like H4350, Vit N550, RL 15.5

Below is a GRT load for a 6ARC with the added capacity ss case. 109 Berger & H4350 and when P1 & Zmax line up like this, it'll shoot very well.

Example of factory loaded 5.56 below. 80.5 Berger's @ 2830 from an 18"

Last thing I'll say is that I plan to put the above items 1-5 into practice. I'd like to shoot more and spend less time loading this year.
For the IWI gas gun matches it's basically a lost brass match anyway so these are perfect. I have a 1000 5.56 cases on the way.

1,000 5.56x45mm Cases | Shell Shock Technologies

1,000 new unprimed NAS3 5.56x45mm cartridge cases. Shell Shock’s NAS3 cases: Up to 50% lighter than brass cases Offer greater lubricity and will not abrade, clog, foul, wear-out or damage breach and ejector mechanisms. Offer greater corrosion resistance, tensile strength, and elasticity than...

shellshocktechnologies.com

 

[Huskydriver]

If you see someone in your squad not doing anything, say something. I tell people all the time they need to help get brass or spot. Some just don't know the eticate and some are lazy. Either way being polite but asking them to help makes match and squad flow much better. I'll be damned if I'm getting people's brass, spotting and helping everyone while someone is sitting on their ass doing nothing. There are two famous shooters who are notorious lazy selfish dickheads and I have told both to their face they are shitty people. I refuse to squad with either. Surprised it hasn't made a podcast yet but I really dgaf. The more everyone works together the quicker we can get done and go home. Being the last squad while everyone waits is a shitty feeling.

Yea the hides gunna need some names

 

[TheOE800]

The more everyone works together the quicker we can get done and go home. Being the last squad while everyone waits is a shitty feeling.

The last match I ever shot was the last match I ever shot because the venue was overcrowded with two extra squads, we constantly waited 45 minutes after wrapping up CoF to move to next stage, and this fucking loud mouth in the squad WOULD NOT SHUT THE FUCK UP. He did nothing, talked loud as fuck while it wasn’t his turn both on and off the line, then would fucking ask everyone who shot before him what their wind hold was.

It was super easy to walk away from any kind of competition after that. 4-5 hours in the car, gas, meals, getting home late as fuck when I should have been home hours before, and paying for that privilege? Fuck that. I’m not skilled, I gain nothing by doing this stuff except trying to have some fun.

 

[Huskydriver]

The last match I ever shot was the last match I ever shot because the venue was overcrowded with two extra squads, we constantly waited 45 minutes after wrapping up CoF to move to next stage, and this fucking loud mouth in the squad WOULD NOT SHUT THE FUCK UP. He did nothing, talked loud as fuck while it wasn’t his turn both on and off the line, then would fucking ask everyone who shot before him what their wind hold was.

It was super easy to walk away from any kind of competition after that. 4-5 hours in the car, gas, meals, getting home late as fuck when I should have been home hours before, and paying for that privilege? Fuck that. I’m not skilled, I gain nothing by doing this stuff except trying to have some fun.

Where was this?

 

[TheOE800]

Where was this?

Eons ago at Peacemaker.

 

[Macht]

6. These are 2 piece cases meaning they can easily put a 5.56 case head on a Grendel body. See where I'm headed.

Good luck feeding anything with that level of rebated rim in an AR.

 

[hlee]

Good luck feeding anything with that level of rebated rim in an AR.

And, at $1.50 per round (for 223), it’s still not a more economical alternative to brass.

 

[357Max]

And, at $1.50 per round (for 223), it’s still not a more economical alternative to brass.

That’s factory loaded with Berger’s, but that’s not the point. That was just to show performance advantage.
For a lost brass match .25 per for brass is affordable.

Cost for a new guy to get in the game and reload this stuff is half. No cleaning, annealing, or FL sizing. This is assuming the QC on these is good?
I'll load some 5.56 as soon as I get it give it a thorough review.

Good luck feeding anything with that level of rebated rim in an AR.

458 Socom is more rebated then ARC-223.

I don't have a Socom.

I have been running 224 Valkyrie rebated to 223 bolt in one of my AR's for over 1K rounds without a single feed issue.
these give me a 1.3gr increase in case capacity (shell shock would give a 3 gr increase).

If these were available in steel for .25 each I'd stand in line to buy them.

A new guy wanting to shoot PRS could take his 223 Tikka and simply screw a nutted pref-fit 6ARC or 22ARC on there without needing to find a bolt. That's a pretty big deal. As is factory ammo not needing to be neutered for low pressure .441 AR bolts.

 

[hlee]

That’s factory loaded with Berger’s, but that’s not the point. That was just to show performance advantage.
For a lost brass match .25 per for brass is affordable.

Cost for a new guy to get in the game and reload this stuff is half. No cleaning, annealing, or FL sizing. This is assuming the QC on these is good?
I'll load some 5.56 as soon as I get it give it a thorough review.


458 Socom is more rebated then ARC-223.

I don't have a Socom.

I have been running 224 Valkyrie rebated to 223 bolt in one of my AR's for over 1K rounds without a single feed issue.
these give me a 1.3gr increase in case capacity (shell shock would give a 3 gr increase).

If these were available in steel for .25 each I'd stand in line to buy them.

A new guy wanting to shoot PRS could take his 223 Tikka and simply screw a nutted pref-fit 6ARC or 22ARC on there without needing to find a bolt. That's a pretty big deal. As is factory ammo not needing to be neutered for low pressure .441 AR bolts.

View attachment 8583361

Wait, so the point is reloading a wildcat cartridge (6mmARC with a 223rem case head) using a niche case, as a hook to get new guys into the sport? I mean, that’s what the thread is about. If so, bwahahaha, breath, bwahahaha!

 

[357Max]

Wait, so the point is reloading a wildcat cartridge (6mmARC with a 223rem case head) using a niche case, as a hook to get new guys into the sport? I mean, that’s what the thread is about. If so, bwahahaha, breath, bwahahaha!

Pretty sure you missed all the points.

I even numbered them. 1-5 is here now as a reality for 223. # 6-9 the 6ARC - 223 bolt idea is a suggested topic for discussion at shot that considers many of the points Frank made.

I've proofed the concept & seen the benefits via the Sig Fury cases & the rebated Valkyrie cases.

Everything was niche at some point.

 

[Emerson0311]

I've done one PRS style match about 3 years ago, and a couple of belly matches here and there. I've got 2 buddies that I've gotten into long range shooting but they're afraid of competing. They have rifles they like to shoot but they don't have equipment; no tripods, one rear bag, shooting factory ammo, no kestrel, no high end binos.

I feel this thread has hit on how to get people into the sport or make it appealing to more. It's been stated that everyone and their brother have an AR. There's also a lot of ranges that don't go out to 1k yds. Why isn't there a starter class? Make an AR only 3-700ish yds, limit gear to a bipod and one support bag for the whole comp. Factory ammo only. Have some movement so it's not barricade benchrest. Pretty much minimal gear, minimal barriers to entry.

The local guys I know are the same. Budget is the first barrier, which is why this discussion turned to losing brass.

 

[hlee]

Pretty sure you missed all the points.

I even numbered them. 1-5 is here now as a reality for 223. # 6-9 the 6ARC - 223 bolt idea is a suggested topic for discussion at shot that considers many of the points Frank made.

I've proofed the concept & seen the benefits via the Sig Fury cases & the rebated Valkyrie cases.

Everything was niche at some point.

No, I saw them.

Of your points, only #2 (tangentially) has any bearing on getting new shooters into the sport- which is the overall topic of this thread.

One of the largest barriers to entry is the idea that one must reload to be competitive (and the associated cost in money and time). Substituting a “one and done” case for a reloadable case ultimately makes that barrier greater. The cost of a brass case goes down every time it is reloaded. The cost of a disposable case is always what it is. At $1/case, replacing s 10% loss rate in brass is cheaper than buying new wonder cases every match.

As the remainder are of no consequence to the new match shooter, I ignored them.