oh jesus this thread has been invaded. please no one load to these speeds ever
7mm SAW
- Thread starter Temper
- Start date
After last weeks shitty grouping continuation with the @CarbonSix 7 SAW, I decided to check concentricity, and the barrel threads are not concentric to the bore. All of my 9" cans leaned far enough with the alignment rod, that at the very end nearly had strikes. So, I decided, to try my 7" cans, and it was much better, but still cockeyed... But it was much more centered in the suppressor bore, than the longer 9" cans were, so I figured it would be less of a chance of causing any interference with the groups.
So, I decided to try my Magnus-S on the end to see if that would help... It actually, did, but still not enough for me to be remotely near happy with this barrel. I will be calling Gene tomorrow about a refund or possible replacement... A $1000+ barrel shouldn't be shooting more than 1/2-MOA at most with handloads.
So, here's today's groups... They were ALL shot with 45.0 grains of H4350, Berger 175 Elites, CCI 400's, 1x Fired/FL Sized Alpha brass, same everything...
So, I decided to try my Magnus-S on the end to see if that would help... It actually, did, but still not enough for me to be remotely near happy with this barrel. I will be calling Gene tomorrow about a refund or possible replacement... A $1000+ barrel shouldn't be shooting more than 1/2-MOA at most with handloads.
So, here's today's groups... They were ALL shot with 45.0 grains of H4350, Berger 175 Elites, CCI 400's, 1x Fired/FL Sized Alpha brass, same everything...
Gene is the main guy who runs CarbonSix. He's not a gunsmith or a barrel builder. He's just the one I've dealt with since the beginning, when the other shitshow about the .25 Creed barrel (that never came to be) got ordered. He has been very helpful, so I'm sure it won't be an issue, it's just frustrating when you drop that kind of coin on a barrel, and a factory Aero Precision (Ballistic Advantage) barrel is smoking it... It should be embarrassing for a company. Not to mention the fact I've burnt through almost $150 worth of Berger bullets, and a half pound of powder (x2 different powders), and 2 trays of primers just to fight a losing battle. It's not about the money, it's about burning through those components just to end up having to do all that shit over again when I get a new tube for it. It was all basically for nothing, and a bunch of wasted time.
And no, I don't use a gunsmith for the Solus rifles, I build them myself at home.
Oof, that’s bad.
Isn’t 0.5moa their guarantee?
Hilarious that this 7SAW thread with almost 700 posts isn’t stickied, but 10mm auto, 243ai, 22bra, 7lrm are all stickied w/ less than 50 posts
McGowan is owned by the same company as CarbonSix. CS uses McGowan blanks. So, this is probably par for the course. I’ll just get a refund and order a Proof blank from EB and have the awesome folks over at Blue Mountain Precision build it fit me, like they did my Solus .25CM prefit, that shoots 0.3xx MOA 5-shot groups.I had the same issue with two Mcgowen barrels.
Yeah, see here:If 1/2 minute is their guarantee, they owe me two barrels…
Popped the CarbonSix barrel off yesterday evening after work after emailing Gene that morning, and then talking to him that afternoon, and they sent me an overnight shipping label. It will arrive tomorrow morning. So hopefully by tomorrow afternoon we'll have some answers as to what is/was wrong with it. And a solution on it's way into the works (new barrel) on getting machined and on it's way to me. He still has to get another 7 SAW reamer (I think they rented the last one for my barrel). He said they already have another 20" 1:8 7mm barrel blank already built (wrapped, etc...), just hasn't been finished or chambered. So, it should be a fairly quick process getting a new barrel on the way.
Talked to Gene today, and since the muzzle threads are slightly off, they are just going to build a new barrel from scratch. Their CS has been excellent, I can't fault them for that. And lemons do slip through the cracks. Also, even if a barrel LOOKS perfectly fine in every way, sometimes something inside of it just won't jihaw and "act right". I'm thinking this is one of those cases, since he said a quick initial inspection showed the bore was perfectly fine (it wasn't undersized or oversized with the pin gauges), and the chamber looks great. So, we'll see. My main thing to figure out right now is do I want to go 7 SAW I or 7 SAW II?
After running some calculations tonight based on my Type1 chamber specs with the 175 Elite Hunters, and knowing that the freebore on the Type1 is 0.045" and the Type2 is 0.105", I extrapolated that if I was to have them chamber it to a Type2, I will still be jumping the bullets 0.080" just because that's as far as my AICS mags will allow to reliably feed without dragging the front of the mag box.
HOWEVER, there is always a second option... I could have them chamber it to a Type1, and then custom throat it another 0.035", and I would be able to seat them to the max mag length, and only be jumping 0.010", which would be ideal. I will probably go this route. Doing this would gain me an extra 0.031" length over the Type1 seating depth I was running, so that would help alleviate some protrusion of the boat tail into the case with compressed loads. Every little bit helps.
Thoughts?
After running some calculations tonight based on my Type1 chamber specs with the 175 Elite Hunters, and knowing that the freebore on the Type1 is 0.045" and the Type2 is 0.105", I extrapolated that if I was to have them chamber it to a Type2, I will still be jumping the bullets 0.080" just because that's as far as my AICS mags will allow to reliably feed without dragging the front of the mag box.
HOWEVER, there is always a second option... I could have them chamber it to a Type1, and then custom throat it another 0.035", and I would be able to seat them to the max mag length, and only be jumping 0.010", which would be ideal. I will probably go this route. Doing this would gain me an extra 0.031" length over the Type1 seating depth I was running, so that would help alleviate some protrusion of the boat tail into the case with compressed loads. Every little bit helps.
Thoughts?
Your math is off, because I don’t use standard AICS mags. I use the MDT steel mags with no front binder plate, which allows longer COAL compared to their standard AICS mags.
The Type 1 with the 175 Elite sits at 2.206” jammed. I had mine seated 2.200”, so 0.006” jump. And it was very deep into the case body. I was not a fan. Basically, going Type1 + 0.035” custom throating, will allow me to seat then an extra 0.031” (2.231”) out, compared to the regular Type 1 that is very constricted.
i'll only use a Type 2 .150 freebore myself. i ain't afraid of a little jump
I have a type 2 chamber, but I'm shooting 168 vld's. At 2.950 COAL I'm about 0.015 jump, iirc, which has been perfect (2.260 CBTO).
I decided to opt for the Type2 chamber. He already had the reamer there, so they said I should have my new barrel back by next week sometime.
Unfortunately, I'll be jumping them 0.080" just be able to fit into the magazine, but I'm jumping them 0.135" in my Christensen Arms 7mm-08 Rem to feed in the 700 length floor plate/feed ramp, and it's shooting 1/4 MOA 3-shot groups, so maybe they won't be so picky, and they'll actually shoot good. We'll see...
Unfortunately, I'll be jumping them 0.080" just be able to fit into the magazine, but I'm jumping them 0.135" in my Christensen Arms 7mm-08 Rem to feed in the 700 length floor plate/feed ramp, and it's shooting 1/4 MOA 3-shot groups, so maybe they won't be so picky, and they'll actually shoot good. We'll see...
Well, the new CarbonSix barrel showed up today... 1 week turnaround for a warrant claim, is impressive.
I did some measuring on it off the gun, since the action has that other spiral-fluted 6.5CM barrel on it right now. The 7 SAW-II chamber is noticeably longer than the Type-1, but not quite as far as the numbers suggest. After crunching the numbers before to make a guess on COAL, my estimate based on their freebore numbers on the website, show that it should have seated the 175 Elite Hunter to 2.311" base-to-ogive. But reality testing it was 2.300" on the dot. So, that means my jump after seating them deep enough to clear and feed from the AICS mag, will be anywhere from around 0.050" to 0.070"
I'm going to do the first round of testing on my other 6.5CM barrel first, since it's already spun on that action, and once I figure out how well it shoots, and get a quick load developed for it, then I'll spin the new 7 SAW barrel on, and restart load development. Probably in the next couple weeks (weekends).
Also, the barrel threads on this new CarbonSix barrel aren't 100% perfect (like a CNC cut barrel), but they're damn-sure MUCH straighter than the first barrel. This one is very close to center, so I'm not complaining, because it shouldn't affect anything, and it definitely won't get any baffle strikes like the first one had me worried about.
I did some measuring on it off the gun, since the action has that other spiral-fluted 6.5CM barrel on it right now. The 7 SAW-II chamber is noticeably longer than the Type-1, but not quite as far as the numbers suggest. After crunching the numbers before to make a guess on COAL, my estimate based on their freebore numbers on the website, show that it should have seated the 175 Elite Hunter to 2.311" base-to-ogive. But reality testing it was 2.300" on the dot. So, that means my jump after seating them deep enough to clear and feed from the AICS mag, will be anywhere from around 0.050" to 0.070"
I'm going to do the first round of testing on my other 6.5CM barrel first, since it's already spun on that action, and once I figure out how well it shoots, and get a quick load developed for it, then I'll spin the new 7 SAW barrel on, and restart load development. Probably in the next couple weeks (weekends).
Also, the barrel threads on this new CarbonSix barrel aren't 100% perfect (like a CNC cut barrel), but they're damn-sure MUCH straighter than the first barrel. This one is very close to center, so I'm not complaining, because it shouldn't affect anything, and it definitely won't get any baffle strikes like the first one had me worried about.
Here is my 25 saw.
26" Preferred Barrels Remage prefit
1:7.5 twist
Long action Remington 700 LH
Ag Composite stock
Using two bushings to neck down brass then through a mandrel. Using EC mandrel die
Running SW Long Rifle and will probably just run it. Shooting good with the 134gr eldm.
26" Preferred Barrels Remage prefit
1:7.5 twist
Long action Remington 700 LH
Ag Composite stock
Using two bushings to neck down brass then through a mandrel. Using EC mandrel die
Running SW Long Rifle and will probably just run it. Shooting good with the 134gr eldm.
Eric @ Blue Mountain Precision in Vernal, Utah does incredible work.
Has anyone loaded the 168 nosler accubond long range in a 22” barrel? Curios on powder preferences and velocities.
New 22" 7 SAW is cut in two weeks from Drews Precision. I sent him a reamer and go/no gauges he has blanks then contours the barrel. He even sent me a video of the run out on the chamber.
What are you guys running for bushing size? My Redding dies got delivered today, I have a SAC .310 & .311 but looking at measured neck thickness I'm guessing I'll probably need the .309. I have the Cortina 308 mandrel die with a 282 mandrel. Using a SAW2 reamer on a Sig Cross built by Straight Jacket, will be shooting 162 ELDX/M.
I have been acquiring all of my reloading gear as my buddy has been doing all of my reloading for me. Split equipment, buy components for him, but I figured my 7SAW might be a good round to start off with myself.
I have been acquiring all of my reloading gear as my buddy has been doing all of my reloading for me. Split equipment, buy components for him, but I figured my 7SAW might be a good round to start off with myself.
Alpha & WTO says that if you're running Alpha/WTO brass, .311 is the proper bushing size.
I ordered everything from WTO, guess I'll just have to give it a go and see how it shoots.
Well, the new barrel is doing better than the old one, but it's still lackluster at-best, and I'm not impressed. Especially for a company with a sub-1/2 MOA guarantee. I haven't seen any sub-1/2 minute groups in 50 rounds thus far. First 25 were all the same load (what my first barrel liked), and my 25 today, I did a load workup just to see if it preferred anything else. It actually preferred the same as the other barrel 47.5 & 48 grains of StaBall 6.5... If you notice, the groups did get incrementally better with each increase in charge weight, so I'm wondering if it still needs more time to fully break-in. Group 4 the 2 fliers to the left, were MY FAULT. The mirage was so terrible today, even at 100 yards, with a cold bore, that it was really hard to get a good image through the scope, and as the can heated up, it only got worse. 3 rounds tops, before it got so blurry you had to wait for a breeze to blow the heat to the side, so you could get a clear enough image to take the next shot, and then repeat with shot 5. I had to do this with every group today. So, the 2 fliers to the left of the bullseye on Group 4, were on me. I felt it when I pulled the trigger.
Here's today's groups...
Here's today's groups...
I know you've talked about talking to the people over at C6, but if you're having trouble and can't get help let me know. Their marketing director shoots with us at the range all the time. I can get with him and see if it can help at all.
If you're talking about Gene, he's helped out a lot with all this, and has been extremely helpful with getting things squared away. But I've just always hated McGowan barrels, and this is why. They're not consistent...You'll get one that shoots great, then another that won't shoot for shit. I know McGowan is owned by the same people as C6, which is why they use their blanks, but goddamn... I waited almost a whole year for a barrel that NEVER got built, then I changed shit up, ordered ANOTHER $350 set of dies, more $135 a box brass, etc... just to find out after 300 rounds that nothing I could do would make the barrel shoot... Then I got the replacement barrel in, and now I'm just not impressed with it, either. I feel like I'm nagging, and I'm not hating on C6, but christ, this whole 7 SAW fiasco has just been one huge waste of fucking money. I'm almost temped to send it back for a full refund (wish I could get that $500 in components back...
), and just have Eric @ Blue Mountain spin up a 20" 8-twist Proof in 7 SAW II just because I KNOW it will shoot 1/3 MOA when I get it. It's just frustrating man. It's a lot of time, and a whole lot of wasted money I'll never get back, on top of the cost of the barrel.
It was so bad today, my Zeiss LRP S3 was having trouble getting a good image @ 100 yards... It was horrific.
I totally get it, there are sunken costs that you will never get back. I don't have any C6 barrels myself, and honestly have steered away due to the McGowan part. I'm not familiar with Gene, the guy that shoots with us is named Chris.If you're talking about Gene, he's helped out a lot with all this, and has been extremely helpful with getting things squared away. But I've just always hated McGowan barrels, and this is why. They're not consistent...You'll get one that shoots great, then another that won't shoot for shit. I know McGowan is owned by the same people as C6, which is why they use their blanks, but goddamn... I waited almost a whole year for a barrel that NEVER got built, then I changed shit up, ordered ANOTHER $350 set of dies, more $135 a box brass, etc... just to find out after 300 rounds that nothing I could do would make the barrel shoot... Then I got the replacement barrel in, and now I'm just not impressed with it, either. I feel like I'm nagging, and I'm not having on C6, I promise, but christ, this whole 7 SAW fiasco has just been one huge waste of fucking money. I'm almost temped to send it back for a full refund (wish I could get that $500 in components back...
Well, I know there's always risk, but I'm also a bit hard-headed, and I always like to be thorough before calling someone and sending something back or swapping it out. I like to be sure I've tried everything before giving up on it. This often costs me money and time. However, it makes me feel better knowing I did all I could, but in the end, it was just defective. And yeah, I hate McGowan barrels, especially when Dan Wynn worked there. He was the biggest prick on planet earth. Glad he finally retired...And I know I'm not alone in that sentiment. I haven't talked with Chris, so I'm not familiar with him. I've only dealt with Gene and Justin (before he got fired for incompetence).
If you want to talk about it with him, that's cool. I'm going to give it another 25 rounds or so, and see where we're at, if the barrel just needs more time to break-in or not. If it still won't shoot sub-1/2 minute, then it's getting sent back for a refund this time.
I tried H4350, which is what everyone, including WTO, recommends. But I just didn't get the speed I wanted. I'm getting 100+ more FPS from the StaBall. And still getting good ES/SD numbers, as well.
Ouch man. I sold the carbon 6 barrels i had and went proof. (Not 7 saw) after my ordeal with a 6.5 prc I don't think i will give them or Mcgowen a chance.
Yep. I was nice about the first one, because lemons do happen. But two in a row is not looking good. How's that old saying go... "Fool me once, shame on you...Fool me twice, shame on me...There won't be a third time."
The whole reason I went 7 SAW instead of another 7mm-08 or something like that, was for the added speed (and the case design). And H4350 only netted me the same velocities as StaBall 6.5 did in my 20" Christensen Ridgeline 7mm-08, and it shoots 1/4-1/3 MOA.
We'll see. StaBall shoots good in everything else I run it in, but worst case scenario, I'll try Varget and H4350 in the new barrel before shit-canning it.
