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Maggie’s Electric hot water heater

Bryan W M

Bryan W M

Sergeant
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 31, 2011
1,444
2,559
East KS
#1
I have had great luck with the brain trust that is the Hide.
Looking into replacing my 11 year old hot water heater . What I have now is a Richmond 50 gallon 240 volt 4500 watt .
With 4 kids and wife I don’t know if I should go bigger. Or just stagger bath time.
I thought about doing a heat pump water heater but not sure if it is worth it. House is all electric. Brands to look at brands to run from? Heat pump a good idea?
 
#2
I’m not familiar with a heat pump water system, unless you’re referring to a thermal type system. I’d suggest avoiding an on demand heater unless getting a big high dollar unit. The newer electric ones can be good, but stupid energy star standards have ruined appliances.
 
#3
Where do you live?

Im in Texas and my 2 water heaters are in the garage. Ill be doing heat pump water heaters when the time comes since around 6-7 months out of the year I can take advantage of the hot garage for once.
 
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#8
Ok...so I am 100% off-grid solar. I have an expensive, top of the line, super efficient, electric tankless.
Let me tell you that was a real mistake.
It's a real electricity HOG. I would stay away from electric tankless even if I were hooked up to the main lines. As far as that goes, I would not use an electric hot water heater at all after this learning experience. In the not distant future, I am going to install a propane tankless. Plus more, but that is neither here nor there.
 
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#9
Aftermath said:
Ok...so I am 100% off-grid solar. I have an expensive, top of the line, super efficient, electric tankless.
Let me tell you that was a real mistake.
It's a real electricity HOG. I would stay away from electric tankless even if I were hooked up to the main lines. As far as that goes, I would not use an electric hot water heater at all after this learning experience. In the not distant future, I am going to install a propane tankless. Plus more, but that is neither here nor there.
Click to expand...
I'm also 100% solar, and have a heat pump. Even in winter there is about 1.8 multiplier, and in summer it is closer to 3.4x. In winter we use a wetback on the fire though, as generation hours are less, and I save them for lights, computers, fridges etc.

Only way to go.
 
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#10
Aftermath said:
Ok...so I am 100% off-grid solar. I have an expensive, top of the line, super efficient, electric tankless.
Let me tell you that was a real mistake.
It's a real electricity HOG. I would stay away from electric tankless even if I were hooked up to the main lines. As far as that goes, I would not use an electric hot water heater at all after this learning experience. In the not distant future, I am going to install a propane tankless. Plus more, but that is neither here nor there.
Click to expand...
Didn't gas tankless systems just get outlawed by Biden?
 
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#11
Aussie Joe said:
Didn't gas tankless systems just get outlawed by Biden?
Click to expand...
I think he just attempted but failed. I might be wrong, in which case, I will go buy one tomorrow.



www.climatedepot.com

Biden Quietly Bans Most Gas Powered Tankless Water Heaters

by Tyler Durden In a significant regulatory shift that took place quietly the day after Christmas, the Biden administration finalized new climate rules targeting natural gas-powered instantaneous w…
www.climatedepot.com
 
Last edited:
#12
RPN said:
I'm also 100% solar, and have a heat pump. Even in winter there is about 1.8 multiplier, and in summer it is closer to 3.4x. In winter we use a wetback on the fire though, as generation hours are less, and I save them for lights, computers, fridges etc.

Only way to go.
Click to expand...
I am planning to keep the electric installed, install a propane upstream and a solar upstream from that. Also use an insulated storage tank that circulates using convection. If everything is perfect, the solar will heat the water and it will just pass through everything else. Redundancy.
 
#13
Just go bigger. If you can't go to gas, go at least 80 gallon, or if your current tank is still in good shape add a second 50 gallon.

Electric does suck for keeping up on them. Yearly cleaning and keeping the anode in good shape will stretch their life quite a lot.


My 80 gallon unit running on natural gas costs me about $15/month, and I haven't ever run it out. It also has a massive recovery rate compared to electric though.

Electric on demand is dumb. Most of them worth having need 200A 240v dedicated to them. You can get by with smaller ones, but only if you have a lot of line or a storage tank. Then you add a recirculation loop and a pump on a timer. Get a decent amount of water hot and running in the lines during the hours you'll be using it.
 
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#14
Heat pump hot water doesn't work well when installed in unconditional space.

For an 80gal nonheatpump water heater you are looking at atleast $2000 (FJB) and unit is 72x24x24. If I was looking for over 50gal and had the space and electrical capacity I'd look at installing a second 50 gal in parallel with isolation valves on each so that when one craps out there would still be one working.
 
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#15
This. ⬆️ If/ when the heat pump feature croaks, you’re left with a standard 80 gallon electric. The heat pumps are expensive upfront & you’ll need to address condensation removal as well. Commercial 80 gallons are available w/ stainless liners. They’re expensive and, I believe, only give a 3 year warranty. Since the govt regulation removed residential 80, you’re best, most economical bet, is to do (2) parallel 50 gallons. Assuming you have the room. 6 year warranty, from the manufacturer, on the residential w. Heaters. Good luck
 
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#17
RPN said:
I'm also 100% solar, and have a heat pump. Even in winter there is about 1.8 multiplier, and in summer it is closer to 3.4x. In winter we use a wetback on the fire though, as generation hours are less, and I save them for lights, computers, fridges etc.

Only way to go.
Click to expand...
What is the wetback's name?

See what I did there?:)
 
#18
chevy_man said:
Just go bigger. If you can't go to gas, go at least 80 gallon, or if your current tank is still in good shape add a second 50 gallon.

Electric does suck for keeping up on them. Yearly cleaning and keeping the anode in good shape will stretch their life quite a lot.


My 80 gallon unit running on natural gas costs me about $15/month, and I haven't ever run it out. It also has a massive recovery rate compared to electric though.

Electric on demand is dumb. Most of them worth having need 200A 240v dedicated to them. You can get by with smaller ones, but only if you have a lot of line or a storage tank. Then you add a recirculation loop and a pump on a timer. Get a decent amount of water hot and running in the lines during the hours you'll be using it.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I have seen people want to get those Coates instant water heaters than need (3) 240 volt 40 amp circuits. And they may not have enough breaker space or ampacity in their service and need to upgrade to a 320 MB which requires a load calculation to Oncor in our area and then a permit, etcetera. Stick with gas or propane and be done with it.
 
#19
Don't do it.

I had one, it took three separate 20 amp breakers. Not cheap to run with kids and a wife running showers.

Three heating elements and they went out all the time. If one went out you had cold showers. They would replace them, but what a pain in the ass.

Final straw was one went out and melted the housing. I was backing out of the garage and noticed water flowing down my wall.

Again, they replaced the entire deal but I replaced it with a tank system. I sold it to a buddy for his shop WH. It's been fine for a shower and bathroom use. They just aren't enough for a whole house system IMO.

I have heard the gas fired ones are solid. Wouldn't hesitate with them but fuck the electric ones.
 
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#20
Aftermath said:
I think he just attempted but failed. I might be wrong, in which case, I will go buy one tomorrow.



www.climatedepot.com

Biden Quietly Bans Most Gas Powered Tankless Water Heaters

by Tyler Durden In a significant regulatory shift that took place quietly the day after Christmas, the Biden administration finalized new climate rules targeting natural gas-powered instantaneous w…
www.climatedepot.com
Click to expand...

I found this info: "The adopted standards, which are expressed in UEF are shown in table I.1. These standards apply to products with effective storage volumes less than 2 gallons and input ratings greater than 50,000 Btu/h (as listed in table I.1) and manufactured in, or imported into, the United States starting on December 26, 2029."

You can read more here.
 
#21
I have room for a bigger tank don’t have room for two. Tankless electric is a joke not interested in that. Did more reading on the heat pump hybrid heaters not not ideal for basement 60-70 degrees.

Any suggestions on brands?
 
#22
I'm about to put one of these in my gas WH. Has a 20 year warranty and supposed to reduce scale buildup, and rotten egg smells if your water has it.

71bsUk48KoL._AC_SL1500_.jpg
 
#24
A.O. Smith and Bradford white I believe are going to be the top two "standard" electric brands to go with.

Looks like you can get a residential A.O. Smith with up to a 12 year warranty. Bradford White looks like max of 6 years(their warranty book eludes to a 10 year warranty product also, but I couldnt find any "standard" electric units in their catalog that offer it).

I would likely do one of the A.O. Smith 500 series with the long warranty. Available at Lowes. Their Pro-Line is only available at plumbing houses and has a 10 year warranty. Dont know if one is actually better than the other, but if you have a local plumbing house that sells them might be worth a quick trip.
 
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#25
I am in the process of replacing my electric water heater, I have a 50 gallon, 2 element that is connected to the geo-thermal heat pump. It is at least 35 years old. The new 50's come with either one 5500w element that recharges quicker but requires a larger breaker. I decided on a dual element 50 gallon. It will run on the same breakers I have installed. Recovery time is equal to wattage. You might look at a supplemental demand tankless that is closer to where it will be used at. Smaller 120V systems might be an option that would help your recovery time. Cold water helps to shorten the amount of time in the shower as well.
 
#27
as stated above go to Lowes and buy their longest warranty WH and install it, then forget about it. In 10 years it will start dripping and you repeat the cycle. None of them are magic. I have been an electric wh guy for a long time now. Another thing when installed keep it up off of the concrete.
 
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#29
Had to replace our NG hot water heater in early 2024, tankless wasn't an option for us without 1. upgrading our NG meter and 2. some horrendiously ugly white PVC exhaust/vent piping. The 50gal replacement we got works well, but there are times we need more hot water.

Anybody running one of these electric "hot water extenders"?

1736271214146.png


A 10-3 line to 30A breaker was already run to my utility room when I bought the house, which looks ideal for one of these.
 
#30
Ronws said:
Yeah, I have seen people want to get those Coates instant water heaters than need (3) 240 volt 40 amp circuits. And they may not have enough breaker space or ampacity in their service and need to upgrade to a 320 MB which requires a load calculation to Oncor in our area and then a permit, etcetera. Stick with gas or propane and be done with it.
Click to expand...
Tankless electric is only good if you:

A. Live in an area with supply temps above 70deg and
B. Install multiple smaller units at point of use.

In FL I run a 15kw at the spare bath (shower sink), 12kw at the kitchen (sink) , and 20kw in the main bath (dual head shower, tub, 2 sinks) (all Stiebel). On average we use 37% less power than the 80gal tank we had before used. Install costs would be a bitch for most though, so I only recommend it for new construction.
 
#31
BoilerUP said:
Had to replace our NG hot water heater in early 2024, tankless wasn't an option for us without 1. upgrading our NG meter and 2. some horrendiously ugly white PVC exhaust/vent piping. The 50gal replacement we got works well, but there are times we need more hot water.

Anybody running one of these electric "hot water extenders"?

View attachment 8585911

A 10-3 line to 30A breaker was already run to my utility room when I bought the house, which looks ideal for one of these.
Click to expand...
small capacity tankless electric water heater dressed up.
 
#33
I am NOT off the grid. This is just observational: When I was house hunting, in Texas about 10 years ago, One FSBO I looked at pretty closely was a 1970’s stick house, that had been modified by a handyman/tinkerer/inventor type, into being entirely of grid. That is to say, his water and power were all solar, with cells hand built by him. Entire panels.
He had a small spring, with a solar panel, running a pump, only during daylight hours, that sent a trickle uphill to a large tank that was also a heat sink, built into the side of his house. 3,000 gallons. It was full, and running into an overflow out to his garden. He never shut it off, and it kept up with bathing, laundry and cooking, plus that garden. His solar panels on the roof, ran the house via a bank of small 12 volt batteries (two banks, actually: bought from the phone company for 2$ each, at 12 volts, he had 24, in each bank, and ran it into a inverter. He switched over from one ot the other each day. They were minimal usage of electricity, based on lifestyle (that’s not that many amp/hours).
Finally: the hot water. He had two electric water heaters. They were connected to city power, however, they were also connected to a roof mounted solar collector. Flat boxes, with coiled up black plastic pipe, filled with antifreeze, running into each tank, via a small 12 v pump. He had a monitor on the heaters, and showed me the record of the previous two years. the electricity on the tanks hadn’t come one once in two years. Even in winter (which aren’t that bad in central TX).
I passed on the house, because it required a lot of tinkering, that i wasn’t prepared to buy into. but he had it worked out pretty well, BTW, the water in the tank was also used for drinking, but ran through a whole house filter, and a water softener, and at the sink used a RO system for drinking water.
So, after all that: Perhaps a passive or pumped heat exchanger solar water heater would suffice. A ground deployment with thermo-siphon would even do away with weight concerns on the roof, and allow for easy maintenance.
 
Last edited:
#34
GE makes a "temp boost" model water heater that, in a 50 gallon tank, gives you the approximate capacity of an 80 gallon using a higher base water temperature and then tempering it to standard temperature using a thermostatic mixing valve.

www.geappliances.com

GE® Smart 50 Gallon Electric Water Heater with Flexible Capacity|^|GE50S10BMM

GE Appliances is your home for the best kitchen appliances, home products, parts and accessories, and support.
www.geappliances.com www.geappliances.com
 
#35
RPN said:
I'm also 100% solar, and have a heat pump. Even in winter there is about 1.8 multiplier, and in summer it is closer to 3.4x. In winter we use a wetback on the fire though, as generation hours are less, and I save them for lights, computers, fridges etc.

Only way to go.
Click to expand...
We built a hybrid Wood Cookstove/Masonry Heater with hot water loop a few years ago.


Worked like the charm. The hot gases and radiation from the (rocket heater) firebox are directed either towards the cookplate or into the masonry mass which then gives it off to the room during the rest of the day.

In the summer, the hot water tank is heated by electricity from solar. You could also put the heat exchanger from a heat pump into the water loop. In both cases a valve would close-off the stainless coil in the masonry heater to avoid heat loss there.
 
#37
Aftermath said:
Ok...so I am 100% off-grid solar. I have an expensive, top of the line, super efficient, electric tankless.
Let me tell you that was a real mistake.
It's a real electricity HOG. I would stay away from electric tankless even if I were hooked up to the main lines. As far as that goes, I would not use an electric hot water heater at all after this learning experience. In the not distant future, I am going to install a propane tankless. Plus more, but that is neither here nor there.
Click to expand...

RPN said:
I'm also 100% solar, and have a heat pump. Even in winter there is about 1.8 multiplier, and in summer it is closer to 3.4x. In winter we use a wetback on the fire though, as generation hours are less, and I save them for lights, computers, fridges etc.

Only way to go.
Click to expand...

I am insanely curious. Where do you two live off grid, and why did you choose it? What do you do for internet access?
 
#38
Our 80 gallon AO Smith electric was installed in 2006, still works.
I have had to replace elements once.
Was plenty for a family of 4.
Now that the kids have grown up and moved away, 80 gallons is more than we need.

Years ago, I connected the WH to solar power.
A timer runs it at the time of day w/ most Sun.
Wife over-rides timer on laundry day.

waterheaterpoweruse.png


I bought a spare Bradford-White 50 gallon a few years ago, to replace the ancient AO Smith,
but the thing won't die.

Ordered the B-W wired for "simultaneous operation", meaning it needs two separate 30A 240v breakers, as both 4500 watt elements come on at the same time.
So when I install the B-W, I will also need to wire up another 30A circuit.
Now that I know better, would not have ordered the "simultaneous" option.
We are old, not in a hurry for the hot water.
 
#42
have a state premier 50 gal hybrid water heater, knocked 40 bucks a month off my electric bill. bought through electric company, think it was around $1000 bucks, installed my self.
Would defiantly do 80gal with 6 people in house.
 
#44
For a family of 4 you should have something closer to 80gal.

EO Smith is a good choice but I would stay away from anything sold in the big box stores. See if you can find a reputable plumbing supply house. My electric water heater has had better days as well. I will be in the market for one soon too.

bullseye13 said:
Hot water heater? Normally you heat up cold water.
Click to expand...
my Director of Engineering loses his shit when someone says "hot water heater". It's like when I lose my shit when I hear "footer". LOL
 
#50
Malum Prohibitum said:
I am insanely curious. Where do you two live off grid, and why did you choose it? What do you do for internet access?
Click to expand...
I'm in a town of 30,000 people in the middle of the North Island of New Zealand.

Electricity is available at my gate, but when I built the house I had been involved in the rebuild of Christchurch after the earthquakes that leveled it in 2011, and was very unimpressed with the way the post quake was handled. Power, water and sewage were slow in being restored, so I decided better to handle it myself. Additionally, they payback on the system I bought was 9 years at 2020 electricity prices - and would be less now.

As a result of Christchurch, my house is 100% stronger than the building code requires - and is made of more flexible and resilient materials - (no brick walls, for example), iron roof screwed to the trusses etc.

I also installed 10KW of generation on the roof, 38kw/h of lead acid batteries (known tech, more bulky but lower fire consequences than lithium), 60,000 litres of water in tanks and insulated the hell out of the place. I have 2 off 4kw inverters supplying 230 vac, so the appliances are all standard.

All cooking is on bottled gas - I get 7 months from a pair of 18 kg bottles, hot water in spring through mid autumn is via a heat pump system ( https://www.econergy.co.nz/products/heat-pump-water-heaters/ ) and when the generation hours get low is via a 3kw wetback on a 25kw fire that heats the house. I burn about 9-10m3 of firewood a year, and currently have 3 years put away, just in case I need to take a year off cutting and splitting for some reason.

Otherwise, people come over and don't have any idea we aren't on the grid - it is just a very slightly different house to the usual box on a big section.
 
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