MPVO for Tactical Games Thoughts/Recommendations

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couch000

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Minuteman
Oct 12, 2020
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#1
I do Tactical Games competitions and the furthest we've shot out to is about 600 yards. A lot of guys are starting to go with a 3-18 type scope (something like Mk 5 HD) and offset red dot. We will typically have one to two stages where we shoot out to distance 200 - 600. Most distances on other stages are from 50-100 yards for rifle. Precision is paramount in these comps. Every miss is a 10 sec penalty in the workouts/stages.

I typically use a Nightforce ATACR 1-8 and it's a great scope (obviously) and has serviced me well but I don't know too much about the MPVO options out there. Since we are shooting 600 yards would a simple reticle be better (non-Christmas tree type)? Illuminated? 2-12 or 3-18? What's lowest magnification range on both ends you guys would look at? I don't want to get anything that has too much magnification. I would also be using an offset red dot for closer range targets.

I've heard general rule these days is 2x for every 100 yards so a 2-12 might be good but is that going to be much better than my ATACR 1-8? Would I still need an offset red dot for a 2-12 (never looked through one before). I figure a 3-15/18 type scope with offset red dot would probably be best option if I decide to go this route to take advantage of the MPVO type platform.

Any good suggestions and/or thoughts? I've looked at NXS, Vortex, Steiner, Leuopold, etc. I don't want to break the bank but maybe $1000-$1500 range. If I can sell my NX8 maybe higher.

Thanks!
 
#2
Depending on how precise you need to be a 1-10 or 2-12 should be plenty.

I don't own any of, s&b or Swarovski, but have good luck with athlon and sig in those ranges of those powers. Each are under 1k easy (ffp is more). Sig comes with a mount, but the athlon doesn't. Both have a 28mm objective and 34mm tube if that makes any difference to you?
 
#3
Top O' Texas said:
Depending on how precise you need to be a 1-10 or 2-12 should be plenty.

I don't own any of, s&b or Swarovski, but have good luck with athlon and sig in those ranges of those powers. Each are under 1k easy (ffp is more). Sig comes with a mount, but the athlon doesn't. Both have a 28mm objective and 34mm tube if that makes any difference to you?
Click to expand...
I had the Vortex Razor 1-10 but didn't like the reticle (center dot too think and transparent) so sold it for the ATACR 1-8 dmx reticle and really prefer FFP. Just don't know if a 2-12 is much of an upgrade over what I have now? I've never used one so I don't know. The advantage of the ATACR is the 1x can be used fairly well on 2 gun type stages we do and the 8x is pretty good at 600.

Lot's of guys are going with a 3-18 with off set red dot I guess to get the best of both worlds.

Thanks!
 
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#4
How do you perform at distance compared to people with more magnification?

Does higher magnification dominate those stages?

Many people like high magnification, but if you ask them how far down they can turn the magnification before groups start to open up, they don't know.

Some people shoot better at lower magnification, because it feels more stable not seeing every micro shake.

Can you test if more magnification will help?
 
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#5
Old Man with Gun said:
How do you perform at distance compared to people with more magnification?

Many people like high magnification, but if you ask them how far down they can turn the magnification before groups start to open up, they don't know.

Some people shoot better at lower magnification, because it feels more stable not seeing every micro shake.

Can you test if more magnification will help?
Click to expand...
I don't shoot my rifle, overall, nearly as well as my pistol. I shoot an Atlas so that certainly helps on the pistol side. I use a 14.5 Criterion barrel currently and just started experimenting with 77gr ammunition (which certainly helps). I just used 55gr and had decent success but will start using 77gr. at longer distances. And will probably switch to a 16" barrel. Don't want too long a barrel. Everything is a give and take in Tactical Games.

I so think people with magnification are starting to dominate those stages. That's why we're seeing the shift from 1-8/10x to 15-18x scopes with offset red dot. We couldn't use off set red dot until last year. I think you'll see even more people with this set up this year.

I'm usually not zoomed out to all the way 8x most of the time because of the eyebox and FOV. We also don't have the most stable positions to shoot from sometimes. If I had a 3-18 I would see myself zooming up to 8-10/12x maybe? But that 8-10/12x I would assume would be a lot better picture, eyebox, and FOV than 8x from my ATACR?
 
#6
couch000 said:
I don't shoot my rifle, overall, nearly as well as my pistol. I shoot an Atlas so that certainly helps on the pistol side. I use a 14.5 Criterion barrel currently and just started experimenting with 77gr ammunition (which certainly helps). I just used 55gr and had decent success but will start using 77gr. at longer distances. And will probably switch to a 16" barrel. Don't want too long a barrel. Everything is a give and take in Tactical Games.

I'm usually not zoomed out to all the way 8x most of the time because of the eyebox and FOV. We also don't have the most stable positions to shoot from sometimes. If I had a 3-18 I would see myself zooming up to 8-10/12x maybe? But that 8-10/12x I would assume would be a lot better picture, eyebox, and FOV than 8x from my ATACR?
Click to expand...
From that statement I think better ammo would be my first priority. Not only 77gr but groups well.

Maybe a longer barrel to bump velocity and add stability as well. I like 18" myself.
 
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#8
Old Man with Gun said:
From that statement I think better ammo would be my first priority. Not only 77gr but groups well.

Maybe a longer barrel to bump velocity and add stability as well. I like 18" myself.
Click to expand...
That was the first thing I did- started testing heavier grain and different groups out of my barrel. FGMM shot the best but of course it's the most expensive. LOL I think I have settled on AAC 77gr. Great bang for the buck and groups fairly well for me. It seems a lot of guys will use cheaper 55gr on shorter targets and use 77gr on the longer range targets. Thoughts on that? But yeah, better 77gr ammo will certainly help me on the longer stages and that may be what the issue is. Not the scope and/or me.

I'm always tinkering and looking at any way to better my results. I didn't really know much about longer-range shooting (still feel like I don't) but learning. Bought a Garmin Xero and rangefinder after our last event. LOL Also, we don't typically dial at TTG either just use holds due to time constraints.

I'm also somewhat limited on how far I can shoot out to. Currently limited to about 200-250 yards. Should I be able to use my Garmin and just plug those results into a ballistics calculator and be pretty accurate regarding holds? I know best thing to do is verify but don't have a place to do that.

Thanks again!
 
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#11
couch000 said:
I don't shoot my rifle, overall, nearly as well as my pistol. I shoot an Atlas so that certainly helps on the pistol side. I use a 14.5 Criterion barrel currently and just started experimenting with 77gr ammunition (which certainly helps). I just used 55gr and had decent success but will start using 77gr. at longer distances. And will probably switch to a 16" barrel. Don't want too long a barrel. Everything is a give and take in Tactical Games.

I so think people with magnification are starting to dominate those stages. That's why we're seeing the shift from 1-8/10x to 15-18x scopes with offset red dot. We couldn't use off set red dot until last year. I think you'll see even more people with this set up this year.

I'm usually not zoomed out to all the way 8x most of the time because of the eyebox and FOV. We also don't have the most stable positions to shoot from sometimes. If I had a 3-18 I would see myself zooming up to 8-10/12x maybe? But that 8-10/12x I would assume would be a lot better picture, eyebox, and FOV than 8x from my ATACR?
Click to expand...
Keep in mind this is "my opinion" based off what you've shared so far...
  • You will definitely benefit from using 77gr match ammo
  • You do not need to go up to a 16" barrel, keep your 14.5. I shoot 77's out of my 12" barrel and get enough speed for 600 yards, your 14.5 should serve you just fine. I've never had stability issues out of shorter barrels unless I'm shooting in the transonic range. 🤷‍♂️
  • When you say "I so think people with magnification are starting to dominate those stages." it is likely because at further distances it gets harder and harder to see the splash from the tiny little bullets, that's where magnification can help, it's not that they can hit a target any better (identify the target maybe, but hitting it can be done with less magnification)... I've shot at 2000 yards before at 12x with good results.
  • Offset RDS will definitely help with closer targets, but you should be able to hit a 50 yard target on 2x pretty easily.
  • The ATACR 1-8 is a great scope, but as you're finding LPVO's have their limitations when it comes to longer ranges, not that they can't work in a pinch, but if more precision is needed that is where the MPVO shines.
  • Within your price range two scopes come to mind, the Athlon Helos BTR G2 2-12x42 and the Steiner H6Xi 2-12x42, of these, it would appear Steiner has the better glass but Athlon has the better reticle for close in use at bottom mag. These are more characteristic of a true MPVO.
  • Other scopes to consider would be the Vortex PST II 3-15x44, the Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50. These mid-power scopes are really good optically for the price.
My personal thoughts, get the Athlon at a great price from @gr8fuldoug , it is so cheap that you should be able to keep your ATACR and try out the Athlon to see how much you like the MPVO format, if you find that 12x just isn't going to cut it for your situation you can sell it without much of a loss and get one of the higher magnification options.

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#12
couch000 said:
Yeah, I feel like the MPVO market is going to be the new "it" thing this year for some reason.
Click to expand...
Man I hope so, but I'm nervous about whether or not any of them can get the reticle "right", it has to be usable at the bottom mag and that's something the industry by and large has not seem to have understood as many manufacturers just put out a 2-10/2-12 with the same reticle they use in their 3-18's and 6-36's 🤷‍♂️ The new ZCO 2-10x30 HTR reticle looks very promising, but one of the reasons I mention the Athlon above is because the AHMR2 FFP IR MIL reticle has been the best design I've seen to date in the MPVO form factor. If Nightforce threw the FC-DMx reticle into the NX8 2.5-20 it might really shake things up, or better yet come out with an NX8 1.5-12x42 or ATACR 2-12x42 with some kind of FC-DMx/Mil-XT blend...
 
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#13
Glassaholic said:
Man I hope so, but I'm nervous about whether or not any of them can get the reticle "right", it has to be usable at the bottom mag and that's something the industry by and large has not seem to have understood as many manufacturers just put out a 2-10/2-12 with the same reticle they use in their 3-18's and 6-36's 🤷‍♂️ The new ZCO 2-10x30 HTR reticle looks very promising, but one of the reasons I mention the Athlon above is because the AHMR2 FFP IR MIL reticle has been the best design I've seen to date in the MPVO form factor. If Nightforce threw the FC-DMx reticle into the NX8 2.5-20 it might really shake things up, or better yet come out with an NX8 1.5-12x42 or ATACR 2-12x42 with some kind of FC-DMx/Mil-XT blend...
Click to expand...
Man, I feel like you're right on the money with this whole statement.
Glassaholic said:
Keep in mind this is "my opinion" based off what you've shared so far...
  • You will definitely benefit from using 77gr match ammo
  • You do not need to go up to a 16" barrel, keep your 14.5. I shoot 77's out of my 12" barrel and get enough speed for 600 yards, your 14.5 should serve you just fine. I've never had stability issues out of shorter barrels unless I'm shooting in the transonic range. 🤷‍♂️
  • When you say "I so think people with magnification are starting to dominate those stages." it is likely because at further distances it gets harder and harder to see the splash from the tiny little bullets, that's where magnification can help, it's not that they can hit a target any better (identify the target maybe, but hitting it can be done with less magnification)... I've shot at 2000 yards before at 12x with good results.
  • Offset RDS will definitely help with closer targets, but you should be able to hit a 50 yard target on 2x pretty easily.
  • The ATACR 1-8 is a great scope, but as you're finding LPVO's have their limitations when it comes to longer ranges, not that they can't work in a pinch, but if more precision is needed that is where the MPVO shines.
  • Within your price range two scopes come to mind, the Athlon Helos BTR G2 2-12x42 and the Steiner H6Xi 2-12x42, of these, it would appear Steiner has the better glass but Athlon has the better reticle for close in use at bottom mag. These are more characteristic of a true MPVO.
  • Other scopes to consider would be the Vortex PST II 3-15x44, the Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50. These mid-power scopes are really good optically for the price.
My personal thoughts, get the Athlon at a great price from @gr8fuldoug , it is so cheap that you should be able to keep your ATACR and try out the Athlon to see how much you like the MPVO format, if you find that 12x just isn't going to cut it for your situation you can sell it without much of a loss and get one of the higher magnification options.

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I feel like you're dead on about everything in this reply. I'm watching an Athlon Helos BTR 2-12 video as we speak 😂 and the other scopes you mention are the ones I have been researching so I feel I'm on the right track. I've also looked at the Mk5 HD but it's a little more expensive than these options.

The Vortex PST II 3-15 has been on my short list just because of the Vortex warranty.

Another question- how important is illumination? I don't use it on the long stages. I think with the Mk5 the price difference is like $500. Just curious.

Thanks!
 
#14
One other question. I normally zero my ATACR for 50/200ish just like I do my red dots on my ARs. If I went with an MPVO and offset red dot should I zero the MPVO at 100 yards instead? I'd probably zero the red dot at like 25 yards since I would only be using it for close targets and 2 gun type stages.

Or would I even need a red dot with a 2-12x?
 
Last edited:
#15
couch000 said:
I've also looked at the Mk5 HD but it's a little more expensive than these options.
Click to expand...
I had the Mark 5 3.6-18x44 and liked it but felt it was lacking compared to ATACR 4-16x42 and the like. I wish Leupold would invest in making wider angle eyepieces to offer greater FOV.
couch000 said:
The Vortex PST II 3-15 has been on my short list just because of the Vortex warranty.
Click to expand...
Honestly it is an often overlooked scope, but I think their best design in the PST II line optic wise.
couch000 said:
Another question- how important is illumination? I don't use it on the long stages. I think with the Mk5 the price difference is like $500. Just curious.
Click to expand...
It's as important as you think it is... 😝 Seriously though, for daytime use it's iffy, maybe if you find yourself shooting in shadows at low magnification where the reticle is pretty thin you'll wish you had it. For MPVO's (and crossovers) with poorly designed reticles, bright illumination can help at lower mags, but even then it's suspect. My thought process with illumination is "better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it" but for the majority of shooting and with a good reticle you'll probably be just fine.
 
#16
Yes you will need a red dot with 2x unless you are one of the very few whose eyes will let you get away with it. I can’t. Why is your zero 50/200ISH? Zero hard at 200 let the “ish”. be at 50. It will probably be 53 or 54, but an inch at 50 won’t matter, while “200ish” can easily give you problems when you get farther out. My prs rifles are 100 yd zero. My three gun rifle is 200 yd zero. You will be on steel from 45 to 225 yds with a center hold. 10” low at 300. After that you have to know your dope and hold or dial. I run the Athlon Ares 1-10. It does get tight and harder to get on at 10x, but it’s so easy to shoot in the lower power range, and for three gun it’s on 1x most of the time. For me the sacrifice is worth it for a couple stages where it is turned all the way up. If most stages were more dmr style, I might have to consider something else.
 
#17
First question, are you looking to compete with the top guys and win?

Or are you looking to use it as a training venue and become better with equipment you made need to use outside of matches?

That will make a lot of decisions for you. Though primarily with overall kit loadout and setup, more so than your optic.

If you’re trying to win, then you’ll want to take a good look at what the trends are with the winners. There will be some definite trends that work generally better than the rest.



People are always too wrapped up with finding some mythical optic that’s a FFP where the reticle is somehow useable at the lowest powers.

Then they get hung up on minor reticle wants and dislikes.

If you’re actually out there running your equipment, you realize most of those perfect optic wants really don’t matter.


Any of the reputable LPVO optics (I don’t get into the ridiculous semantic argument of LPVO and MPVO…..that’s again for people who just argue on the internet)….

Razor 1-6
Razor 2-10
Atacr
NX8
Sig models

Regardless if they have a 1x or 2x bottom and regardless if they are SFP or FFP…..will work just fine.

The vortex 1-6 is an sfp and mostly you’re just gonna be on 1x or 6x, so it doesn’t matter.

The vortex 1-10 is FFP and you might use something like 6 or 8x at times, and the reticle is still useable.

With any of them, stick a quality RDS on the top or offset (good arguments for both positions).

Then figure out if you prefer using the RDS for your 1x or similar stuff.

If you prefer the RDS, you can look at 2x or higher bottom end.

If you prefer the optic, unless you’re one of the very rare types, you’ll want 1x bottom end. You’ll be significantly faster with either an RDS or 1x for your cqb distances than you will be with 2x or higher.


I personally run an RDS on top of any LPVO regardless what the low end is.
 
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#18
That Helos G2 DMR is great for shooting fast, which is mostly what I enjoy about it, and a major part is the size of the center dot. The illuminated dot isn't daylight bright but you can still see it well on low magnification.

It's a pleasantly weird scope that is highly capable in varied situations and something better off experienced personally rather than by reading about it. Off the top of my head, without having shot your match, it seems about perfect for your use case.

I'd say you won't need a RD on this 2-12 because the FOV on 2x should be plenty wide enough. On the precision side of it, even with an air rifle, I can hit 2-3 MOA sized steel at 50Y pretty easily.
 
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#19
Rio Precision Gunworks said:
First question, are you looking to compete with the top guys and win?

Or are you looking to use it as a training venue and become better with equipment you made need to use outside of matches?

That will make a lot of decisions for you. Though primarily with overall kit loadout and setup, more so than your optic.

If you’re trying to win, then you’ll want to take a good look at what the trends are with the winners. There will be some definite trends that work generally better than the rest.



People are always too wrapped up with finding some mythical optic that’s a FFP where the reticle is somehow useable at the lowest powers.

Then they get hung up on minor reticle wants and dislikes.

If you’re actually out there running your equipment, you realize most of those perfect optic wants really don’t matter.


Any of the reputable LPVO optics (I don’t get into the ridiculous semantic argument of LPVO and MPVO…..that’s again for people who just argue on the internet)….

Razor 1-6
Razor 2-10
Atacr
NX8
Sig models

Regardless if they have a 1x or 2x bottom and regardless if they are SFP or FFP…..will work just fine.

The vortex 1-6 is an sfp and mostly you’re just gonna be on 1x or 6x, so it doesn’t matter.

The vortex 1-10 is FFP and you might use something like 6 or 8x at times, and the reticle is still useable.

With any of them, stick a quality RDS on the top or offset (good arguments for both positions).

Then figure out if you prefer using the RDS for your 1x or similar stuff.

If you prefer the RDS, you can look at 2x or higher bottom end.

If you prefer the optic, unless you’re one of the very rare types, you’ll want 1x bottom end. You’ll be significantly faster with either an RDS or 1x for your cqb distances than you will be with 2x or higher.


I personally run an RDS on top of any LPVO regardless what the low end is.
Click to expand...
^^^ This right here, Rio knows his stuff ^^^

Another great guy on the forums is @Burdy (with a lot of experience with this type of shooting), tagging him here in case he has anything to add.
 
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#20
Looks like the Athlon 2-12 has a reticle very similar
502Chevelle said:
Yes you will need a red dot with 2x unless you are one of the very few whose eyes will let you get away with it. I can’t. Why is your zero 50/200ISH? Zero hard at 200 let the “ish”. be at 50. It will probably be 53 or 54, but an inch at 50 won’t matter, while “200ish” can easily give you problems when you get farther out. My prs rifles are 100 yd zero. My three gun rifle is 200 yd zero. You will be on steel from 45 to 225 yds with a center hold. 10” low at 300. After that you have to know your dope and hold or dial. I run the Athlon Ares 1-10. It does get tight and harder to get on at 10x, but it’s so easy to shoot in the lower power range, and for three gun it’s on 1x most of the time. For me the sacrifice is worth it for a couple stages where it is turned all the way up. If most stages were more dmr style, I might have to consider something else.
Click to expand...
I have always zeroed my rifles with red dots at 50 yards because there's no way I can group at 200 yards with a red dot. Plus I didn't have access to a 200 yard range and now I do. We also shoot most of our stages with rifle at about 50 - 75 yards and an inch "is" a big deal. Each target we miss adds 10 seconds to our total workout time. So 10 misses out of 60 is 100 seconds added to my total time. If we go out past 200 yards the targets are full size ipsc steel or bigger. I feel like I do fine/well in the workouts but get outshot with my rifle at this point (it's not just the optic). Pistol I'm pretty good.

Let me know if I'm missing something but I zero at 50 and then see where my drop/dope is at 200 since most of our stages are 50-75 yards. My zero is also pretty close to a 50/200 zero with 77gr but dead on at 50 yards. That's just what I'm used to.

But if I go with something like a 3-15 with an offset red dot would I zero the 3-15 at 100 yards for the longer stages and red dot at 25 for the 2 gun type stages? I would still need/use magnification for most of the rifle stages even if they're 50-75 yards for the precision aspect.
 
#21
Rio Precision Gunworks said:
First question, are you looking to compete with the top guys and win?

Or are you looking to use it as a training venue and become better with equipment you made need to use outside of matches?

That will make a lot of decisions for you. Though primarily with overall kit loadout and setup, more so than your optic.

If you’re trying to win, then you’ll want to take a good look at what the trends are with the winners. There will be some definite trends that work generally better than the rest.



People are always too wrapped up with finding some mythical optic that’s a FFP where the reticle is somehow useable at the lowest powers.

Then they get hung up on minor reticle wants and dislikes.

If you’re actually out there running your equipment, you realize most of those perfect optic wants really don’t matter.


Any of the reputable LPVO optics (I don’t get into the ridiculous semantic argument of LPVO and MPVO…..that’s again for people who just argue on the internet)….

Razor 1-6
Razor 2-10
Atacr
NX8
Sig models

Regardless if they have a 1x or 2x bottom and regardless if they are SFP or FFP…..will work just fine.

The vortex 1-6 is an sfp and mostly you’re just gonna be on 1x or 6x, so it doesn’t matter.

The vortex 1-10 is FFP and you might use something like 6 or 8x at times, and the reticle is still useable.

With any of them, stick a quality RDS on the top or offset (good arguments for both positions).

Then figure out if you prefer using the RDS for your 1x or similar stuff.

If you prefer the RDS, you can look at 2x or higher bottom end.

If you prefer the optic, unless you’re one of the very rare types, you’ll want 1x bottom end. You’ll be significantly faster with either an RDS or 1x for your cqb distances than you will be with 2x or higher.


I personally run an RDS on top of any LPVO regardless what the low end is.
Click to expand...
I'm trying to compete and finish on the podium (top 3) at Regional events and qualify for Nationals which I've done the last two years. Life got in the way the last couple of years so I didn't get to compete at nationals. I'm 55 and compete in the 50+ age group so I'm not a spring chicken in my age group. I'm not going to win my age group but I always want to finish top 5 in a regional event to qualify for nationals. So yes, I'm trying to be competitive but have realistic goals at the same time.

The trend is the top finishers are using something like a 3-18 with an offset red dot. I've just never used that before but if that's what the top guys are using then that's telling me something. I also feel like we are starting to shoot further and further out so something like a 3-18 becomes more of an advantage. I can do it with my 1-8 ATACR but I also think it will be a lot easier with a higher power scope. I really like my ATACR but think I owe it to myself to at least experiment with a higher power scope with an offset red dot.

What do you think about the Vortex Razor HD LHT 3-15? That thing is light and small. Weight is also a factor because sometimes we will have 3-5 mile runs with a 15lb plate carrier, our pistols/belt, and our rifles slung.

Thanks!
 
#22
If you’re curious with the concept, I would echo glassaholics recommendation to buy and try the Helios 2-12. I have exactly one hunting trip and steel session with mine, but was blown away by it. Have tried all sorts of different shit over the years but for the price that scope is a home run for my uses (critters/steel from 25 to 600m on an 11.5 SBR). I’m running a 12 o’clock RMR in a reptilia mount which I would recommend if using NVGs. Even if you don’t like it you could likely sell here and get a better understanding of what works best for you.
 
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#23
couch000 said:
I do Tactical Games competitions and the furthest we've shot out to is about 600 yards. A lot of guys are starting to go with a 3-18 type scope (something like Mk 5 HD) and offset red dot. We will typically have one to two stages where we shoot out to distance 200 - 600. Most distances on other stages are from 50-100 yards for rifle. Precision is paramount in these comps. Every miss is a 10 sec penalty in the workouts/stages.

I typically use a Nightforce ATACR 1-8 and it's a great scope (obviously) and has serviced me well but I don't know too much about the MPVO options out there. Since we are shooting 600 yards would a simple reticle be better (non-Christmas tree type)? Illuminated? 2-12 or 3-18? What's lowest magnification range on both ends you guys would look at? I don't want to get anything that has too much magnification. I would also be using an offset red dot for closer range targets.

I've heard general rule these days is 2x for every 100 yards so a 2-12 might be good but is that going to be much better than my ATACR 1-8? Would I still need an offset red dot for a 2-12 (never looked through one before). I figure a 3-15/18 type scope with offset red dot would probably be best option if I decide to go this route to take advantage of the MPVO type platform.

Any good suggestions and/or thoughts? I've looked at NXS, Vortex, Steiner, Leuopold, etc. I don't want to break the bank but maybe $1000-$1500 range. If I can sell my NX8 maybe higher.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Interesting, I guess they dropped their rule about only allowing one optic. When I completed you could not have a piggybacked/offset red dot, which sucked, because that's how I run mine.

Personally, I go with the rule of 1x per 100 yards in dynamic comps such as this, but I do admit, Tac Games is a bit more accuracy oriented than most. I remember one particular "paper" stage at beyond 200 that it would have been nice to see my super awesome group was just outside of the circle. No ability to see .22 caliber holes, no correction, so extra magnification would be good for some of their stages.
Good news is, weight is not a concern like a Run and Gun, so I would say bolt on a 4-16 ATACR, March 1.5-15 or 3-18 Mark 5 and let it roll with your favorite red dot configuration. I personally don't think the 3-15 LHT would survive the Tac Games.

I will agree with @Glassaholic no real reason to dump the 14.5" barrel. I run 13.7" and 600 yards is an easy day with 73g ELD-M

As for your zero, well, that's high personal. I did write an article a while back that should help you ask the correct questions to yourself and setup your zero accordingly. It's a bit long, but maybe worth the read if you are unsure of what you are looking for:
www.twobluescrews.com

Stop Asking What You Should Zero Your Rifle At — Two Blue Screws

I have been wanting to write this one for quite some time as I constantly see this topic in various places across the internet, hear the question at matches, and get it asked to myself fairly often. I am of the opinion that your thorough understanding of this one specific topic will make you a much
www.twobluescrews.com www.twobluescrews.com
 
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#24
Burdy said:
Interesting, I guess they dropped their rule about only allowing one optic. When I completed you could not have a piggybacked/offset red dot, which sucked, because that's how I run mine.

Personally, I go with the rule of 1x per 100 yards in dynamic comps such as this, but I do admit, Tac Games is a bit more accuracy oriented than most. I remember one particular "paper" stage at beyond 200 that it would have been nice to see my super awesome group was just outside of the circle. No ability to see .22 caliber holes, no correction, so extra magnification would be good for some of their stages.
Good news is, weight is not a concern like a Run and Gun, so I would say bolt on a 4-16 ATACR, March 1.5-15 or 3-18 Mark 5 and let it roll with your favorite red dot configuration. I personally don't think the 3-15 LHT would survive the Tac Games.

I will agree with @Glassaholic no real reason to dump the 14.5" barrel. I run 13.7" and 600 yards is an easy day with 73g ELD-M

As for your zero, well, that's high personal. I did write an article a while back that should help you ask the correct questions to yourself and setup your zero accordingly. It's a bit long, but maybe worth the read if you are unsure of what you are looking for:
www.twobluescrews.com

Stop Asking What You Should Zero Your Rifle At — Two Blue Screws

I have been wanting to write this one for quite some time as I constantly see this topic in various places across the internet, hear the question at matches, and get it asked to myself fairly often. I am of the opinion that your thorough understanding of this one specific topic will make you a much
www.twobluescrews.com www.twobluescrews.com
Click to expand...
Thanks! I'll read the article. They changed the rule at tactical games last year so I think you'll see even more offset red dots this year.

After looking at the LHT a little more I don't like the reticle options either so based on your thoughts of durability it's out.

Not sure I want to spend the cash on another ATACR at the moment. I've looked at the NX8s though. Any thoughts on those for this application? The NX8s have a zero stop but no locking elevation? Is that correct? I would think that would be a concern in TTG.

I've also looked at the Vortex PST II 3-15 and the Strike (B)Eagle 3-18. Not sure why I call it the Strike Beagle- just cracks me up. These are about a grand cheaper than the NX8 so there's that.
 
#25
couch000 said:
Thanks! I'll read the article. They changed the rule at tactical games last year so I think you'll see even more offset red dots this year.

After looking at the LHT a little more I don't like the reticle options either so based on your thoughts of durability it's out.

Not sure I want to spend the cash on another ATACR at the moment. I've looked at the NX8s though. Any thoughts on those for this application? The NX8s have a zero stop but no locking elevation? Is that correct? I would think that would be a concern in TTG.

I've also looked at the Vortex PST II 3-15 and the Strike (B)Eagle 3-18. Not sure why I call it the Strike Beagle- just cracks me up. These are about a grand cheaper than the NX8 so there's that.
Click to expand...
Personally, I won't run non-locking or un-capped turrets in comps such as these. I know people say it may not matter, but I have spun mine multiple times, and since went to only locking/capped. Too much other stuff to worry about at these events without having to worry about my turret.

My thoughts are keep the ATACR 1-8 that you have. I don't personally think moving to a 1-10 is going to make a difference for you and currently the options in the MPVO category are always lacking somewhere in the feature set.

Basically, I would have no issue feeling competitive with the current descriptions you have given us about your setup.
 
#26
If you aren't shooting less that 50yards, then I wouldn't bother with an LVPO, 1x on the main optic is completely unnecessary unless you are shooting inside of 10yard IMO. If 50yards is the closest target then 3x on the low end will be fine.

I'd probably go for a 3-18ish mag range scope and add an offset red dot if you need it.
I like MPVO 2-10/12ish scopes in theory, but I don't really like any of the existing options feature set (reticle, weight, turrets, etc), the Mark 4hd 2.5-10x42 is probably the closest thing currently on the market.
 
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#27
beetroot said:
If you aren't shooting less that 50yards, then I wouldn't bother with an LVPO, 1x on the main optic is completely unnecessary unless you are shooting inside of 10yard IMO. If 50yards is the closest target then 3x on the low end will be fine.

I'd probably go for a 3-18ish mag range scope and add an offset red dot if you need it.
I like MPVO 2-10/12ish scopes in theory, but I don't really like any of the existing options feature set (reticle, weight, turrets, etc), the Mark 4hd 2.5-10x42 is probably the closest thing currently on the market.
Click to expand...
Maybe we will get something we can recommend after next week. At least that's my hopes....
 
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#28
Burdy said:
Personally, I won't run non-locking or un-capped turrets in comps such as these. I know people say it may not matter, but I have spun mine multiple times, and since went to only locking/capped. Too much other stuff to worry about at these events without having to worry about my turret.

My thoughts are keep the ATACR 1-8 that you have. I don't personally think moving to a 1-10 is going to make a difference for you and currently the options in the MPVO category are always lacking somewhere in the feature set.

Basically, I would have no issue feeling competitive with the current descriptions you have given us about your setup.
Click to expand...
I just read your article and the first section is me. 😂 I also research stuff until I'm exhausted and always want to know the "why" behind everything.

I think my ATACR is perfectly fine for the type of shooting we do and will probably just stick with it (at least for the meantime) and try to master all the data, holds, etc. Which I still think I make more difficult than it actually is. The problem is I don't really have a place to verify holds out past 250. But I guess I can see how much the bullet drops at 250 and compare results on ballistic calculator.

I also think the 50/200ish zero works well in TTG given the distances we shoot. Very minimal spread out to 200-250 yards. 300 just aim a little high and let the bullet drop in. After that you need to know your data and your holds. I typically zero my pistol at 15 yards since that is the normal distance we shoot pistols but may move that to 25 based on your article because we have shot steel out to about 50-75 yards before. I'll have to revisit the 25 yard zero and bullet path.
 
#29
couch000 said:
I just read your article and the first section is me. 😂 I also research stuff until I'm exhausted and always want to know the "why" behind everything.

I think my ATACR is perfectly fine for the type of shooting we do and will probably just stick with it (at least for the meantime) and try to master all the data, holds, etc. Which I still think I make more difficult than it actually is. The problem is I don't really have a place to verify holds out past 250. But I guess I can see how much the bullet drops at 250 and compare results on ballistic calculator.

I also think the 50/200ish zero works well in TTG given the distances we shoot. Very minimal spread out to 200-250 yards. 300 just aim a little high and let the bullet drop in. After that you need to know your data and your holds. I typically zero my pistol at 15 yards since that is the normal distance we shoot pistols but may move that to 25 based on your article because we have shot steel out to about 50-75 yards before. I'll have to revisit the 25 yard zero and bullet path.
Click to expand...
My pistol dots are always zeroed at 50 yards, but that's just me. I like to hold dead on for the far stuff, as I can always adjust easily at close range since I can see the hits/misses.
 
#31
couch000 said:
I just saw your tactical games article too (I had already read it in the past somehow). I actually competed in that one in Blakely, GA too. Haha, small world.
Click to expand...
It was an experience. I definitely prefer Run and Gun events, but I may do another Tac Games in 2 years when I turn 50 just as extra motivation. I would do their sniper match if I could ever get one to line up with my schedule.
This year might be tough altogether so I'm really just aiming to shoot some more Quantified Performance and NRL Hunter matches and maybe Legion, which is my favorite.
 
#32
couch000 said:
I've also looked at the Vortex PST II 3-15 and the Strike (B)Eagle 3-18. Not sure why I call it the Strike Beagle- just cracks me up. These are about a grand cheaper than the NX8 so there's that.
Click to expand...
The Strike Beagle 😂 is a Chinese scope which is why it's a lot cheaper than the NX8. Primary Arms just announced their PLx-C (Japanese) 2.5-20x48. If priced right, this could be a surprising alternative to the NX8; however, looking at the small print for the reticles, I do not think it is going to be very usable at 2.5x; another swing and a miss? 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
#33
couch000 said:
Not sure I want to spend the cash on another ATACR at the moment. I've looked at the NX8s though. Any thoughts on those for this application? The NX8s have a zero stop but no locking elevation? Is that correct? I would think that would be a concern in TTG.
Click to expand...
I was playing with the NX8 2.5-20x50 the other day at Scheels, trying to figure out which scope to put on my 18” AR for DMR-style matches I hope to start shooting in 2025. You are correct, the NX8 has a zero stop but no locking elevation.

The other scopes I’m looking at are the Leupold Mk5 and 4 (3.6-18x44 and 4.5-18x52), and on the lower end of the price scale the Bushnell Match Pro ED 3-18x50 but I have yet to find one in a store to see what the glass is like.

What size are the targets in TTG? I’m guessing in addition to getting pushed further out the targets are also getting smaller and smaller, hence the trend towards 3-18x’s rather than LVPO’s?
 
#34
Glass
As you mentioned the reticles for new PLX 2.5-20, what is with the boxing around tree in Neptune reticle, and is the Athena G2 supposed to mimic the Griffin in a way? Cannot see if the center is dot or chevron. Sure would like to see a through the scope view, as I really do the the PLXC concept carried to higher mag range, but these reticles have me holding for more visual info before committing funds.
IMG_0672.png
 
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#35
bobke said:
Glass
As you mentioned the reticles for new PLX 2.5-20, what is with the boxing around tree in Neptune reticle, and is the Athena G2 supposed to mimic the Griffin in a way? Cannot see if the center is dot or chevron. Sure would like to see a through the scope view, as I really do the the PLXC concept carried to higher mag range, but these reticles have me holding for more visual info before committing funds.
View attachment 8593152
Click to expand...
When the PA guys decided to not put a chevron in their precision reticle they called an emergency strategy meeting to come up with alternative ways to fuck up a reticle. The Neptune was born.
 
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#36
Burdy said:
It was an experience. I definitely prefer Run and Gun events, but I may do another Tac Games in 2 years when I turn 50 just as extra motivation. I would do their sniper match if I could ever get one to line up with my schedule.
This year might be tough altogether so I'm really just aiming to shoot some more Quantified Performance and NRL Hunter matches and maybe Legion, which is my favorite.
Click to expand...
I've never done Run and Gun events but I think I would definitely prefer TTG over them. I'm in the process of building a PRS-type 6.5 CM rifle and thought about doing some PRS stuff but we'll see. I don't even really have anywhere to shoot it but will be fun to build and shoot something different.
 
#37
couch000 said:
I've never done Run and Gun events but I think I would definitely prefer TTG over them. I'm in the process of building a PRS-type 6.5 CM rifle and thought about doing some PRS stuff but we'll see. I don't even really have anywhere to shoot it but will be fun to build and shoot something different.
Click to expand...
RnGs are the most real world applicable competitions there are. But I do enjoy plenty of other shooting comps ....except for Steel Challenge.
 
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#38
Yup run and guns test your physical abilities and how well your gear is setup. Found out loctite is a must on everything even when torqued. Bobro scope mount only had 2 out of the 8 screws stayed tight, all the screws holding my GCode RTI wheel holster on were loose and falling off. That was after a couple of different runs. The vibrations of bouncing around loosen stuff over time.

I have done then with SWFA 1-4, Steiner 1-4 and Viper 1-6. Some had 500-600 yd shots but those were pretty big steel. Most were 300 yd max and the LPVOs did just fine on siluette syle steel.
 
Last edited:
#39
couch000 said:
I just read your article and the first section is me. 😂 I also research stuff until I'm exhausted and always want to know the "why" behind everything.

I think my ATACR is perfectly fine for the type of shooting we do and will probably just stick with it (at least for the meantime) and try to master all the data, holds, etc. Which I still think I make more difficult than it actually is. The problem is I don't really have a place to verify holds out past 250. But I guess I can see how much the bullet drops at 250 and compare results on ballistic calculator.

I also think the 50/200ish zero works well in TTG given the distances we shoot. Very minimal spread out to 200-250 yards. 300 just aim a little high and let the bullet drop in. After that you need to know your data and your holds. I typically zero my pistol at 15 yards since that is the normal distance we shoot pistols but may move that to 25 based on your article because we have shot steel out to about 50-75 yards before. I'll have to revisit the 25 yard zero and bullet path.
Click to expand...
Just my opinion from my assorted experiences:

Atacr 1-8 is plenty good for what youre doing. A rifle capable of about 1.5-3moa (3moa is about 18" horizontal spread at 600) with quality ammo (AAC 77gr is great stuff) will go a long way. Obviously smaller-er MOA capable is better-er. Guys switch ammo mid match for different distances? Yeah that's clown shit and causes a wandering zero. Use same ammo for everything. AAC for 50-60 cents per round is amazing.

Re: optics. I've used 1-8x, 2-10x, 3.5-10x, 3-15x, and 6-24x for assorted competitions. Ive always made it a habit to adjust my magnification to what "looks good for the stage" without thinking about numbers, then look at what I adjusted to after the stage was over. Even on PRS style competitions where on a single stage you engage targets at multiple distances out to 700-800y on full size IPSC, I've found I rarely adjust higher than 8x because i wanna have a greater FOV while scanning for targets and not waste time adjusting magnification multiple times. Everyone has theor own thing they like. Om an economy-of-motion kind of guy where less movements are more better-er.

Re: target size and practice. One thing drastically improved my times and aiming (credit to @TheGerman):

Practice on nothing but a 40-50% IPSC (7x12" - 9x15") out to 200-400 for a while and when you see a full size IPSC you'll be shocked at how big it is, and how much faster youll be able to get on target and shoot compared to your practice target. You'll have less misses on the full soze targets, so less time penalties.

I regularly shoot a 40% IPSC out to 700-750y with AAC 77gr out of my 18" Mk12 and out to 350-400y with my medium contour Bartlein 14.5 mid gas AR. Aim small, miss small.

Re: zero distance. Everyone has their thing for their application. I zero my magnified optic setups at 100y. 50y is almost always less than 1" low with a 2.5" bore to optic height whether I'm doing 55, 62, or 77gr. Just know your holdovers every 100y out to 600. Or, if allowed, make a tiny dope chart and tape it to your buffer tube so you can just glance down and see it.

So, that's just me. I've never used an ATACR 1-8 in a competition, but I've shot with one for fuckarounds and that optic quality is amazing.


Edit to add the below:

100y zero, classes data to what the AAC does out of my 14.5.

Screenshot_20250118_191623_Strelok Pro.jpg


Full value 3MPH wind from left to right

50y is 0.6" low from a 100y zero.

Screenshot_20250118_191556_Strelok Pro.jpg
 
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#40
clcustom1911 said:
Just my opinion from my assorted experiences:

Atacr 1-8 is plenty good for what youre doing. A rifle capable of about 1.5-3moa (3moa is about 18" horizontal spread at 600) with quality ammo (AAC 77gr is great stuff) will go a long way. Obviously smaller-er MOA capable is better-er. Guys switch ammo mid match for different distances? Yeah that's clown shit and causes a wandering zero. Use same ammo for everything. AAC for 50-60 cents per round is amazing.

Re: optics. I've used 1-8x, 2-10x, 3.5-10x, 3-15x, and 6-24x for assorted competitions. Ive always made it a habit to adjust my magnification to what "looks good for the stage" without thinking about numbers, then look at what I adjusted to after the stage was over. Even on PRS style competitions where on a single stage you engage targets at multiple distances out to 700-800y on full size IPSC, I've found I rarely adjust higher than 8x because i wanna have a greater FOV while scanning for targets and not waste time adjusting magnification multiple times. Everyone has theor own thing they like. Om an economy-of-motion kind of guy where less movements are more better-er.

Re: target size and practice. One thing drastically improved my times and aiming (credit to @TheGerman):

Practice on nothing but a 40-50% IPSC (7x12" - 9x15") out to 200-400 for a while and when you see a full size IPSC you'll be shocked at how big it is, and how much faster youll be able to get on target and shoot compared to your practice target. You'll have less misses on the full soze targets, so less time penalties.

I regularly shoot a 40% IPSC out to 700-750y with AAC 77gr out of my 18" Mk12 and out to 350-400y with my medium contour Bartlein 14.5 mid gas AR. Aim small, miss small.

Re: zero distance. Everyone has their thing for their application. I zero my magnified optic setups at 100y. 50y is almost always less than 1" low with a 2.5" bore to optic height whether I'm doing 55, 62, or 77gr. Just know your holdovers every 100y out to 600. Or, if allowed, make a tiny dope chart and tape it to your buffer tube so you can just glance down and see it.

So, that's just me. I've never used an ATACR 1-8 in a competition, but I've shot with one for fuckarounds and that optic quality is amazing.


Edit to add the below:

100y zero, classes data to what the AAC does out of my 14.5.

View attachment 8594875

Full value 3MPH wind from left to right

50y is 0.6" low from a 100y zero.

View attachment 8594876
Click to expand...
I agree with everything you say in this post. I think I'm just gonna settle on the AAC 77gr ammo for everything and stick with the ATACR (at least for my first comp in March). Like you said the AAC 77gr is .50/rd and not much more than regular 55gr training ammunition. I'm using a Criterion .223 wylde barrel and it seems to do a great job even with 55gr ammo but the 77gr will benefit me a lot at longer distances and group better at longer distances. Plus being a heavier bullet it should help with calls too.

We try to practice with smaller than normal targets like you said but that is definitely a great idea since we can only get out to about 250 yards where we practice.

The other thing I think I'm going to do is switch to a single stage 3-3.5 trigger. I'm currently using a Geissele SSA-E two stage curved trigger. Thinking about their 3 gun trigger? Any thoughts on that? I feel like the 2 stage trigger just adds an additional "step" in the trigger pull process. Seems like a lot of the top guys are using single stage triggers as well.

Thanks again for all the input and help!
 
#41
couch000 said:
I agree with everything you say in this post. I think I'm just gonna settle on the AAC 77gr ammo for everything and stick with the ATACR (at least for my first comp in March). Like you said the AAC 77gr is .50/rd and not much more than regular 55gr training ammunition. I'm using a Criterion .223 wylde barrel and it seems to do a great job even with 55gr ammo but the 77gr will benefit me a lot at longer distances and group better at longer distances. Plus being a heavier bullet it should help with calls too.

We try to practice with smaller than normal targets like you said but that is definitely a great idea since we can only get out to about 250 yards where we practice.

The other thing I think I'm going to do is switch to a single stage 3-3.5 trigger. I'm currently using a Geissele SSA-E two stage curved trigger. Thinking about their 3 gun trigger? Any thoughts on that? I feel like the 2 stage trigger just adds an additional "step" in the trigger pull process. Seems like a lot of the top guys are using single stage triggers as well.

Thanks again for all the input and help!
Click to expand...
I have a roughly 1/4 steel IPSC. 7" tall including head and 4" wide. I use it out to 300. Targets in comps look like barn doors after using it.
 
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#42
couch000 said:
I agree with everything you say in this post. I think I'm just gonna settle on the AAC 77gr ammo for everything and stick with the ATACR (at least for my first comp in March). Like you said the AAC 77gr is .50/rd and not much more than regular 55gr training ammunition. I'm using a Criterion .223 wylde barrel and it seems to do a great job even with 55gr ammo but the 77gr will benefit me a lot at longer distances and group better at longer distances. Plus being a heavier bullet it should help with calls too.

We try to practice with smaller than normal targets like you said but that is definitely a great idea since we can only get out to about 250 yards where we practice.

The other thing I think I'm going to do is switch to a single stage 3-3.5 trigger. I'm currently using a Geissele SSA-E two stage curved trigger. Thinking about their 3 gun trigger? Any thoughts on that? I feel like the 2 stage trigger just adds an additional "step" in the trigger pull process. Seems like a lot of the top guys are using single stage triggers as well.

Thanks again for all the input and help!
Click to expand...
I have S3G as well as SSF and SSP (single stage). S3G has no wall or defined "break", just a smooth press until it goes bang without any indicator. And a nice short reset. It does feel very nice.

My SSF acts just like a SSA-E. I like 2 stage a hair better than S3G because on longer targets I can press to the wall, finish my breathing cycle, then press the final bit to make it go boom. But the 2nd stage is light enough that I can hammer shots if needed and not feel it at all.

You can also throw a lighter trigger spring in the SSA-e and it will lighten the first stage.

Everyone has their preferences. You really can't go wrong.
 
#43
Here’s my opinion for whatever it’s worth. For reference, I’m an avid TTG competitor with two podium finish’s at Nationals in the occupational division. 80% of the rifle shooting at a TTG event is 75-125 yards, 10% will be close, and you *might* see a long range stage depending on the venue. I still believe the LPVO is the best all-around choice for this type of shooting (I also use the ATACR 1-8). 2023 Nationals had a 670 yd target on a long range stage and I was able to get a 2nd round impact with a 14.5” barrel and a razor 1-6. I only saw one other person hit it out of the 20 or so I saw shoot. Would a 4-16 or 3-18 be better for that specific stage…absolutely, but for everything else I’ll take the simplicity, durability, versatility, of the LPVO. Like all things in Tactical Games, being well rounded is more important than being a one trick pony. Now all that being said, the entire elite podium was using mpvo’s and offset dots…
 
#44
B4forever said:
Here’s my opinion for whatever it’s worth. For reference, I’m an avid TTG competitor with two podium finish’s at Nationals in the occupational division. 80% of the rifle shooting at a TTG event is 75-125 yards, 10% will be close, and you *might* see a long range stage depending on the venue. I still believe the LPVO is the best all-around choice for this type of shooting (I also use the ATACR 1-8). 2023 Nationals had a 670 yd target on a long range stage and I was able to get a 2nd round impact with a 14.5” barrel and a razor 1-6. I only saw one other person hit it out of the 20 or so I saw shoot. Would a 4-16 or 3-18 be better for that specific stage…absolutely, but for everything else I’ll take the simplicity, durability, versatility, of the LPVO. Like all things in Tactical Games, being well rounded is more important than being a one trick pony. Now all that being said, the entire elite podium was using mpvo’s and offset dots…
Click to expand...
Haha, you're last sentence is the reason I asked the question to start with. I believe my 14.5" Criterion barrel, switching to 77gr, and ATACR 1-8, will be fine and that's what I'll use in Holt in March. I'm curious to see what comes out at SHOT this week. I've never used a 2-12 but maybe that's the perfect "hybrid" type scope for tactical games if it's short and light enough to make sense. If not might as well go 18x for the extra magnification and use offset red dot. I hear a lot of people say 2x for 100 yards (instead of 1x for 100 yards) is kind of the new standard since scope technology has come a long way and the longest I've shot out to in tactical games is 600 at Holt so a 2-12 type scope sounds interesting. And I assume the 2x would be ok to use in the 2 gun type stages we have? Again, I've never shot a 2-12 before.

Thanks!
 
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#45
couch000 said:
Haha, you're last sentence is the reason I asked the question to start with. I believe my 14.5" Criterion barrel, switching to 77gr, and ATACR 1-8, will be fine and that's what I'll use in Holt in March. I'm curious to see what comes out at SHOT this week. I've never used a 2-12 but maybe that's the perfect "hybrid" type scope for tactical games if it's short and light enough to make sense. If not might as well go 18x for the extra magnification and use offset red dot. I hear a lot of people say 2x for 100 yards (instead of 1x for 100 yards) is kind of the new standard since scope technology has come a long way and the longest I've shot out to in tactical games is 600 at Holt so a 2-12 type scope sounds interesting. And I assume the 2x would be ok to use in the 2 gun type stages we have? Again, I've never shot a 2-12 before.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Holt? What state?
 
#46
You don't need a new scope. You just need to train more. It's hard to imagine a better scope for what you need than the scope you already have.

If you're feeling some gaps in your knowledge, take a precision gas gun course like Performance Out Yonder from Mark Smith/JBS Shooting or similar.
 
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#48
The podium at Nationals wouldn’t have changed if they were using LPVO’s. Either setup can work well, I just don’t want to deal with two optics, two batteries, two mounts, two zeros, adjusting parallax every stage etc…
 
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#49
Glassaholic said:
… but one of the reasons I mention the Athlon above is because the AHMR2 FFP IR MIL reticle has been the best design I've seen to date in the MPVO form factor. If Nightforce threw the FC-DMx reticle into the NX8 2.5-20 it might really shake things up, or better yet come out with an NX8 1.5-12x42 or ATACR 2-12x42 with some kind of FC-DMx/Mil-XT blend...
Click to expand...
If NF put the FC-DMx in the 2.5-20 or in a new 1.5-12 I would buy it immediately.

Also, yeah the AHMR2 FFP MIL is a fantastic reticle for the scope’s role.
 
#50
ClangClang said:
You don't need a new scope. You just need to train more. It's hard to imagine a better scope for what you need than the scope you already have.

If you're feeling some gaps in your knowledge, take a precision gas gun course like Performance Out Yonder from Mark Smith/JBS Shooting or similar.
Click to expand...
But I like shiny new things and all the cool kids are using the MPVO/red dot combo. :) I'll definitely stick with the ATACR for now.

I see JBS has some courses somewhat close to me (I'm in Louisville, KY). I can't do the Dover, TN in February but the Pikeville, TN in May might work. Would love to do something like that because I feel that's really where the biggest gap in my shooting is.
 
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