Plane crash At Reagan National
- Thread starter Shoreglide
- Start date
Horrifying FAA revelation about airport tower at time of DC crash
LIVE UPDATES: Sixty passengers, four crew, and three US Army personnel are believed to be dead after the collision 400ft over the Potomac River in Washington DC.
Ok, every flight is a training flight in the Blackhawk. They don’t just fly “missions “ all the time. They have monthly flight hour requirements, as well as semi annual and annual, and certain part of those hours are required to be under NVG’s. And that doesn’t even account for check rides or APART rides. As far as why are they flying into Reagan, because it’s an airport and that’s what blackhawks do… they fly to airports.
As far as how something like this could happen, there’s are a lot of factors that go into a NVG mishap like this. What Gen NVG’s were they utilizing? The newer phosphorus NVG’s are damn bright unless you’re operating under 0 illum. That’s why a bunch of the crews actually prefer the older green tubes vs the phosphorus. When you’re flying at that altitude, it is easy to mistake headlights or other flashing beacons/ lights for aircraft, especially in a highly lit up situation near a major city/ airport, that’s why you constantly have to fly NVG’s to maintain profiency, it’s a perishable trait. There’s also lots of emergency procedures you practice during “training” flights and different landing types. It’s not like the only time you respond to an emergency, is when you’re in an actual emergency. It’s easy to lose track of another aircraft under a sea of bright lights.
I’m curious if the pilots mistook the aircraft taking off as the one that ATC was referring to pass behind. Following the blackhawks flight path, it didn’t appear as they tried any evasive actions, which lends me to question having actually had eyes on the incoming aircraft. Or, there was like 3 aircraft in a row coming in to land and maybe they didn’t see the first one and thought one of the other ones was the one ATC was referring to. The fact they were flying at above 300’ in a corridor where the max altitude was 200’. Is definitely crew error in regard to the crash. I also question the crew coordination in the Blackhawk, as all 3 of the crew members should have acknowledged the incoming aircraft and confirmed it with one another. The black box will shed more light on what they saw and were saying while everything was going on. I also almost question whether or not the PC might have been inside the aircraft doing radio calls and other stuff like monitoring the instruments while ATC was making all the calls. I know quite often, the crew will minimize communication when there’s heavy radio chatter. Seeing as they were pretty much flying straight towards one another, the crew chief in the back probably offered little airspace surveillance to the front and was most likely scanning from the about 1 o’clock to the 6, if the crew chief was on the right, and would be partially obscured from potentially seeing the aircraft coming straight at them. We’ve always been trained to keep our heads on a swivel when we’re flying on the Hudson down by LaGuardia and JFK simply due to, the sheer volume of traffic that’s around.
Without hearing more than 30 seconds of the ATC tower, kind of hard to really know what conversations were going on between the 60 and the tower, and because the 60 was replying on a different frequency to tower, just makes it that much harder. As in 90+% of all aviation accidents, I think we’re definitely going to find out this unfortunate accident, was at a minimum pilot error, and potentially ATC error as I would have thought there would have been more urgency in the controllers voice seeing on radar they were on a collision course. Once again, just a different perspective and it’s all speculation, because I wasn’t there. Luckily though, in due time, I will unfortunately have to listen to the last minutes of the Ill fated flight and will have a better a clearer understanding of what the crew of the 60 actually heard, saw, and said. Such a tragedy, regardless.
As far as how something like this could happen, there’s are a lot of factors that go into a NVG mishap like this. What Gen NVG’s were they utilizing? The newer phosphorus NVG’s are damn bright unless you’re operating under 0 illum. That’s why a bunch of the crews actually prefer the older green tubes vs the phosphorus. When you’re flying at that altitude, it is easy to mistake headlights or other flashing beacons/ lights for aircraft, especially in a highly lit up situation near a major city/ airport, that’s why you constantly have to fly NVG’s to maintain profiency, it’s a perishable trait. There’s also lots of emergency procedures you practice during “training” flights and different landing types. It’s not like the only time you respond to an emergency, is when you’re in an actual emergency. It’s easy to lose track of another aircraft under a sea of bright lights.
I’m curious if the pilots mistook the aircraft taking off as the one that ATC was referring to pass behind. Following the blackhawks flight path, it didn’t appear as they tried any evasive actions, which lends me to question having actually had eyes on the incoming aircraft. Or, there was like 3 aircraft in a row coming in to land and maybe they didn’t see the first one and thought one of the other ones was the one ATC was referring to. The fact they were flying at above 300’ in a corridor where the max altitude was 200’. Is definitely crew error in regard to the crash. I also question the crew coordination in the Blackhawk, as all 3 of the crew members should have acknowledged the incoming aircraft and confirmed it with one another. The black box will shed more light on what they saw and were saying while everything was going on. I also almost question whether or not the PC might have been inside the aircraft doing radio calls and other stuff like monitoring the instruments while ATC was making all the calls. I know quite often, the crew will minimize communication when there’s heavy radio chatter. Seeing as they were pretty much flying straight towards one another, the crew chief in the back probably offered little airspace surveillance to the front and was most likely scanning from the about 1 o’clock to the 6, if the crew chief was on the right, and would be partially obscured from potentially seeing the aircraft coming straight at them. We’ve always been trained to keep our heads on a swivel when we’re flying on the Hudson down by LaGuardia and JFK simply due to, the sheer volume of traffic that’s around.
Without hearing more than 30 seconds of the ATC tower, kind of hard to really know what conversations were going on between the 60 and the tower, and because the 60 was replying on a different frequency to tower, just makes it that much harder. As in 90+% of all aviation accidents, I think we’re definitely going to find out this unfortunate accident, was at a minimum pilot error, and potentially ATC error as I would have thought there would have been more urgency in the controllers voice seeing on radar they were on a collision course. Once again, just a different perspective and it’s all speculation, because I wasn’t there. Luckily though, in due time, I will unfortunately have to listen to the last minutes of the Ill fated flight and will have a better a clearer understanding of what the crew of the 60 actually heard, saw, and said. Such a tragedy, regardless.
DCA is literally the most fun airport I've ever flown into, and I will never be a better stick-and-rudder pilot than the day I left the job that based me there.
Prohibited airspace, traffic, etc. *forces* you to actually be a damn pilot, not a systems manager...at least in Ye Olden Days before RNP approaches.
i read that one of the ice skaters that was going to be on the plane survived, because his dog was too big for the flight.
i bet he loves that dog.
i bet he loves that dog.
I used to fly private aircraft in the '70s. Flying requires an incredible amount of concentration in regulated airspace, and critical when transitioning from "soft" (air), to "hard", (ground). That kills.
I've already identified 5 factors that contributed to the mishap, starting with a single controller handling two different frequencies in an incredibly complex and heavily regulated low altitude environment.
Also, although it is a common local procedure in DCA for landing diversions at the last few minutes from a controlled computerized descent on runway 11 to runway 33 using VISUAL flight rules, and said controller using vague language and not mentioning the diversion of the landing jet involved to the helicopter from runway 11 to runway 33 let alone azimuth information like "...traffic at 5 o'clock also contributed to the mishap.
It placed the aircraft in a collision trajectory with the Army helicopter, which because of different frequencies had no idea of what was going on.
There's more but this will do for now...
I've already identified 5 factors that contributed to the mishap, starting with a single controller handling two different frequencies in an incredibly complex and heavily regulated low altitude environment.
Also, although it is a common local procedure in DCA for landing diversions at the last few minutes from a controlled computerized descent on runway 11 to runway 33 using VISUAL flight rules, and said controller using vague language and not mentioning the diversion of the landing jet involved to the helicopter from runway 11 to runway 33 let alone azimuth information like "...traffic at 5 o'clock also contributed to the mishap.
It placed the aircraft in a collision trajectory with the Army helicopter, which because of different frequencies had no idea of what was going on.
There's more but this will do for now...
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of course everyone is a backseat pilot on the interwebs, but i saw a post someplace from a guy that claimed some measure of knowledge that said the tower should not have told the helicopter to "go behind the jet" but in no certain terms they should have directed the pilot to "immediately change course and climb to 3k feet" or something like that.
here it is...
also heard that the tower asked the helicopter "do you see the plane?" and the pilot said "yes", but was not looking at the correct airplane.
How disaster over the Potomac unfolded
The shocking collision took place as the American Airlines flight carrying 64 people made its final approach to Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport shortly before 9pm ET last night
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That graphic is pure bullshit. Do your homework or don't post about things you know nothing about. The aircraft was on approach on a guided RWY 11 and was switched to RWY 33 with hand flying. No issues for an experienced pilot, but a lot of buttons to press nevertheless as in increasing workload. This involves a turn to the right for quite a while to realign with RWY 33 which put the aircraft way to the right, then turning left to line up with 33 and that's where they collided.of course everyone is a backseat pilot on the interwebs, but i saw a post someplace from a guy that claimed some measure of knowledge that said the tower should not have told the helicopter to "go behind the jet" but in no certain terms they should have directed the pilot to "immediately change course and climb to 3k feet" or something like that.
here it is...
also heard that the tower asked the helicopter "do you see the plane?" and the pilot said "yes", but was not looking at the correct airplane.
How disaster over the Potomac unfolded
The shocking collision took place as the American Airlines flight carrying 64 people made its final approach to Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport shortly before 9pm ET last nightwww.dailymail.co.uk
Here's the real FAA layout:
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Its been a geological era since I flew in the USAF, but having planes...in the same sector...on different frequencies is just plain fucking stupid in my never humble opinion.
My experience is ancient (and I can't remember my own name on occasion! haha) but my recollection is that we listened to each other as much as ATC. The commands and responses very much increased our situational awareness.
Just saying.
My experience is ancient (and I can't remember my own name on occasion! haha) but my recollection is that we listened to each other as much as ATC. The commands and responses very much increased our situational awareness.
Just saying.
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it comes from the article in the link below the picture. i don't even think i see a major difference you are talking about.
Your response just prove my point. You don't know what you don't know. I'm to old to explain shit like this to people that just re post shit from the IW
The concept you have a Military Operation Area using Controlled Flying Areas with military helicopters having to check both ways and told to pass behind a commercial jet, at night, is absurd.
If a civilian pilot in a private plane did that he'd be grounded and in big trouble.
If a civilian pilot in a private plane did that he'd be grounded and in big trouble.
pretty much the same as the article, except the diagram in pointed slightly northeast.
Nope. Headlines and articles earlier were wrong. That guy was trying to board a Delta flight and got denied.
Only thing gayer than blocking someone as an adult is announcing it to the world lol
“I have no self control and can’t just ignore posts”
That reality seems to cut across many formerly male dominated fields. I’ve seen the same. Either incredibly capable or DEI.
My serving military BIL had the same experience. Hell, he even paid his own training cost to become a private pilot, on top of his military controller job, and was denied without explanation.
You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. When did you get your cert, and where do you fly? And please enlighten us as to the definition and location of this "Controlled Flying Area".
I enjoy Captain Steves videos. He breaks everything down pretty well.
Not that I don’t agree with you but we literally do this every single day in ATC. Sectors and positions are constantly being combined and de-combined due to staffing or traffic levels. Not to mention tower doesn’t know frequencies (that’s a joke but seriously) they just say contact departure. Whether you’re working combined sectors or not. So you’ll have multiple planes on two different frequencies all the time. When I was at a center we had the capability to “cross couple” two frequencies but in the TRACON/Terminal environment you don’t. #FAAEquipment
Maybe you shouldn’t post things you don’t know about either. There is no RWY 11 @ DCA. They were initially on approach to RWY 1 then asked to circle to land RWY 33.
It's 11 magnetic if you really need to know, which you obviously don't. If they called it 11 it would be 110....
YOU are the fucking retard posting about things you have no clue about.
runway 11???
No such thing... RUNWAY 1... circle to 33...
And a circle to 33 is not a "right turn for quite a while" and its not "a lot of buttons to press".... Its literally "yea we can take the circle to 33" and you shut off the autopilot and circle visually to 33... circle to 33 is literally done tons of times each day. Ive done it a handful of times. You can also do 19 circle to 15.
We are authorized to do it at my current company, but I would never do it personally speaking as the airplane is much larger than the one I used to fly in there and performance on a 5200 ft runway is "sporty" to say the least. I especially wouldnt do it at night. The risk level goes up to high for my comfort. If its my only option, sure, but I wouldnt do it just to help out ATC(which is the reason they do it).
I have landed at airports where the tower controller was also the approach controller. Usually late at night. Its odd getting cleared to land by the approach controller until they say "well im also the tower controller and ground controller currently"... well thats safe LOL. Maybe this is different than what you were discussing.
Your funny. But you can keep spouting. Based on the chart you provided it actually 006.3 degrees. The 11 your referring to is the elevation of the runway at the threshold.
By the way I’m paid to know.
lol Like I said, my flying career was a geological era ago….but we def got departure control freq from tower for handoff.
Different times.
And I’m sorry but being a daily occurrence, staffing levels, and system capacity (traffic) seem like thin justification to me to have aircraft in the same area on diff freqs.
Now, in USAF working areas, flights were handed off to separate weapons controllers (ground or AWACS) for intercepts/dogfighting but this absolutely wasn’t the case then for ATC.
Of course, this was so long ago we were still flying biplanes.
Thanks for coming on and sharing real world actual ATC knowledge
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Your funny. But you can keep spouting. Based on the chart you provided it actually 006.3 degrees. The 11 your referring to is the elevation of the runway at the threshold.
Dont worry there are at least 4 or 5 actual real life airline pilots and it looks like an air traffic controller in this thread that he can argue with. Its quite entertaining arguing with retards actually.
Yeah, I’ve bit my tongue on several post but when ole dude called out the one and told him he was full of it, I could help myself. It is funny though to see all the “factual info” spouted.
A lot of bigger towers will not provide any, get it from CD if filing. I fly out of a Delta, and they always do, app/dep is handled by the Bravo.lol Like I said, my flying career was a geological era ago….but we def got dep control freq from tower for handoff.
Different times.
And I’m sorry but being a daily occurrence, staffing levels, and system capacity (traffic) seem like thin justification to me to have aircraft in the same area on diff freqs.
Now, in USAF working areas, flights were handed off to serrated weapons controllers for intercepts/dogfighting this absolutely wasn’t the case then for ATC.
Of course, this was so long ago we were still flying biplanes.
Thanks for coming on a sharing thread world actual ATC knowledge
And I could swear DCA had a River 18 VFR approach…but now it’s 19? Basically fly down the river and hang a right. But DC was under a TCA upside down wedding cake at the time and you could fly under it. I’ve been given to understand that they don’t call them TCA’s anymore and in DC (and elsewhere) it goes to the ground. True?
And this is all quite possibly just my creaking delusional memory.
And this is all quite possibly just my creaking delusional memory.
Yeah that’s the smaller up/down facilities. On the mid shifts they’ll combine everything up to one position… which when you’re at an up/down (tower and radar facility) it’s everything.
Mag north is moving...TCA? It has been a bit, eh?
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