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Plane crash At Reagan National

#153
Rio Precision Gunworks said:
This is pretty entertaining.

Pilots yelling at non pilots about not posting without experience, knowledge, certs…..etc. Which obviously makes sense.

However, many of these pilots are also all over the threads about LE and why they are doing the job wrong……
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You’d be surprised at the number of airline pilots that were former LE.
 
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#154
Baron23 said:
And I could swear DCA had a River 18 VFR approach…but now it’s 19? Basically fly down the river and hang a right. But DC was under a TCA upside down wedding cake at the time and you could fly under it. I’ve been given to understand that they don’t call them TCA’s anymore and in DC (and elsewhere) it goes to the ground. True?

And this is all quite possibly just my creaking delusional memory.
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There is a river visual to 19, but most of us shoot it via RNP now and let the autopilot do the yanking and banking.
 
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#155
Rio Precision Gunworks said:
This is pretty entertaining.

Pilots yelling at non pilots about not posting without experience, knowledge, certs…..etc. Which obviously makes sense.

However, many of these pilots are also all over the threads about LE and why they are doing the job wrong……
Click to expand...
We don’t get qualified immunity. We don’t get to keep our pension. When we fuck up and our passengers and crews get injured or die due to our actions, we’re held accountable.
 
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#156
Rio Precision Gunworks said:
This is pretty entertaining.

Pilots yelling at non pilots about not posting without experience, knowledge, certs…..etc. Which obviously makes sense.

However, many of these pilots are also all over the threads about LE and why they are doing the job wrong……
Click to expand...
Not me. Ever. But there is a very basic difference. Many people have at least a basic understanding of the law...some more than others. It is unusual for a non pilot (or ATC) to have any idea at all about FAA regs, procedures, etc. Few have ever even seen a sectional, approach plate, etc.
 
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#164
st1650 said:
Not sure if I’m the only one who’s experienced this with female aviators but in my anecdotal experience, they’re either extremely high level performers, or well below standard on the verge of being retarded.
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giphy (2).gif




It's across the board in various life things. Voting: They're either turo-based and vote logically (minority), or so dumb they actually have no clue what they are voting for (majority). Their car is completely immaculate (minority) or their car is a landfill (majority)


Anyway, I digress.....
 
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#165
Old joke... What's the difference between a pilot and God?... God doesn't think he's a pilot.

I landed at KDCA last night 40 minutes before the crash. Looking at the available info, JIA5342 (the CRJ) was cleared for the "Mount Vernon Visual Runway 1". When they switched to DCA Twr frequency, the Twr controller asked if they could accept RNWY 33. JIA5342 accepted and they were cleared to land RNWY 33. The Twr controller told PAT25 (the Blackhawk) about the CRJ traffic, it's location, and to maintain visual separation. These communications between the Twr controller and the commerical and military aircraft took place on two different frequencies simultaniously.

From what I can tell, I'm guessing that PAT25 probably thought another aircraft on final for RNWY 1 (AAL3130) was the traffic it was avoiding. This has been a huge problem in aviation for decades. Ironically, a PSA 727 colided with a Cessna in San Diego in the 1970's under similar circumstances. ATC is generally fantastic, but they are always pressing pilots to "call traffic" so that seperation becomes the pilots responsibility and not the controllers.

What I can't stop thinking about though, is how the Twr controller clearing JIA5342 to land on RNWY33 put them on an intersecting path with PAT25 that was on specified route. All at night, at low level, and in congested airspace.

Shit works... until it doesn't.
 
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#166
Rio Precision Gunworks said:
This is pretty entertaining.

Pilots yelling at non pilots about not posting without experience, knowledge, certs…..etc. Which obviously makes sense.

However, many of these pilots are also all over the threads about LE and why they are doing the job wrong……
Click to expand...

Bwaaaahahaha. That didn't turn out the way you expected. Do you actually think before you post stoooopid shit like that?
 
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#169
A wonderful thread, experienced pilots who actually know what they are talking about. Only SH could provide this level of insight.......I assume all also have seen social media reports, the "female" pilot of the Blackhawk was a tranny, and some reports that an urgent return to base was transmitted to the Blackhawk just before impact.
 
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#170
Best info and summary I’ve found so far:



TLDR: ATC put these aircraft in a situation where they would be de-conflicted by a couple hundred feet vertical separation at best.

Helo declared visual separation but almost certainly was looking at a different aircraft, and also popped up above his max altitude just before the collision. RJ was on the correct approach, but may have dipped slightly below the ideal glide path…still within the envelope/cone for that approach though.
 
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#172
91Eunozs said:
Best info and summary I’ve found so far:



TLDR: ATC put these aircraft in a situation where they would be de-conflicted by a couple hundred feet vertical separation at best.

Helo declared visual separation but almost certainly was looking at a different aircraft, and also popped up above his max altitude just before the collision. RJ was on the correct approach, but may have dipped slightly below the ideal glide path…still within the envelope/cone for that approach though.
Click to expand...

This guy is always good. His analysis of the air show crash in Texas was excellent.
 
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#173
HarryBC said:
A wonderful thread, experienced pilots who actually know what they are talking about. Only SH could provide this level of insight.......I assume all also have seen social media reports, the "female" pilot of the Blackhawk was a tranny, and some reports that an urgent return to base was transmitted to the Blackhawk just before impact.
Click to expand...
All sounds a bit crazy doesn't it? (ps...not calling you out...I'm in agreement here) What's true and not true we may one day find out. So how much of that is substantiated? The transexual - is this confirmed now? The call to return to post?
 
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#174
91Eunozs said:
Best info and summary I’ve found so far:



TLDR: ATC put these aircraft in a situation where they would be de-conflicted by a couple hundred feet vertical separation at best.

Helo declared visual separation but almost certainly was looking at a different aircraft, and also popped up above his max altitude just before the collision. RJ was on the correct approach, but may have dipped slightly below the ideal glide path…still within the envelope/cone for that approach though.
Click to expand...

Excellent eval. Thanks for sharing.
This fellow did a great job of painting the picture of possibilities.
Among other really good points he makes perfect sense regarding being nose to nose making a moving object appear stationary in the clutter.
 
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#177
jimsair said:
Old joke... What's the difference between a pilot and God?... God doesn't think he's a pilot.
Click to expand...

Eh I usually fly Southwest. Planes falling apart. Stewardess is 60 years old. Pilot running up and down the aisle with googly eye glasses and a tie that lights up. If I look into the cockpit I can see instrument panels with wires sticking out. One of the engines has the cowling off and they're banging on it with wrenches.
 
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#178
BytorJr said:
All sounds a bit crazy doesn't it? (ps...not calling you out...I'm in agreement here) What's true and not true we may one day find out. So how much of that is substantiated? The transexual - is this confirmed now? The call to return to post?
Click to expand...

I think the tranny thing was fake, since "she" is still alive.
 
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#180
I attribute zero blame in this to ATC. Vis 1 Circle 33 is normal RJ ops at Reagan.

Helicopter was twice told to maintain visual separation. Despite the CRJ being lit up like a Christmas tree the helo didn't, and in combination with the helo being where they weren't really supposed to be, 67 people died.

The end.
 
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#181
BoilerUP said:
I attribute zero blame in this to ATC. Vis 1 Circle 33 is normal RJ ops at Reagan.

Helicopter was twice told to maintain visual separation. Despite the CRJ being lit up like a Christmas tree the helo didn't, and in combination with the helo being where they weren't really supposed to be, 67 people died.

The end.
Click to expand...
ATC followed procedure, and passed separation responsibility to the helo crew, but that’s too simplistic to say they played ZERO role in it. We all know mishaps aren’t made up of 1 factor…but several.

Directing circle to 33 knowingly put the airliner beak to beak with the helo, at night… then ATC allowed (helo requested it, assuredly as their normal procedure to prevent getting delayed over and over while flying their usual “VIPs” around DC) ALL deconfliction responsibility on 1 entity looking at thousands of lights, including several airborne. “ATC gave sole responsibility to…” is a little too technically ‘washed my hands’ for reality.

Helo appears to have broken the 200’ ceiling, which is just another hole in the Swiss cheese. A major error, yes, but alone doesn’t cause the mishap. I’m willing to bet they (errantly) climb while visually locked on the (wrong) airliner…which means they aren’t looking at the correct airliner, nor their instruments. Their sole focus is avoiding the airliner.

Asking someone if they see traffic assumes they ALWAYS see the same traffic you’re asking about. This works until it doesn’t…which is why it’s retarded at night without some other form of confirmation (which doesn’t work with 2 entities that aren’t communicating directly).

The real question…why has this known risk been accepted to the point of “normal.”
 
#182
If the helicopter was actually on Route 4 (laterally and/or vertically), the accident never happens.

If the helicopter actually sees and maintains visual separation from the CR7, the accident never happens.

Again, these are normal DCA Vis 1 Circle 33 RJ ops that have happened for decades...why an accident now? Because the helo was where they never should have been and didn't maintain the separation they said they would not once but twice.

My critique for the Army EP who (seemingly) allowed a 50% bust on route altitude around inbound civilian airliner traffic without saying anything is for another day.
 
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#183
Allowing operations that cross though an active approach is an unacceptable threat.

Allowing a facility to operate with fewer than the required staff is an unacceptable threat.

A flight cannot be operated without the minimum crew for good reason. How can it be acceptable for a facility to be operated without appropriate staffing?

Maybe it's time for the pilot and attendant unions to step up.

You'd think the carriers should be worried about all of this. They were recently required to implement SMS.

Don't serve facilities that cannot be staffed.

Being too threat tolerant leads to consequences of errors being far too costly.
 
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#184
BoilerUP said:
I attribute zero blame in this to ATC.
Click to expand...

I will slightly disagree.

1 controller in the tower cab when there should be 2. I dont blame the controller for that, but I do blame FAA for allowing that.

Supposedly there was collision alerts on the radar, but they were ignored... my guess is because it "happens all the time" in the tight airspace so its normal to ignore them... maybe better to send somebody around than to ignore a safety system because it "happens all the time"...
 
#188
rjacobs said:
1 controller in the tower cab when there should be 2.
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I haven't seen any reports that there was just one person in the tower cab (ie. one controller working combined Tower and Ground), only that there is "normally" a controller operating the helos on UHF Tower, while a different controller works DCA arrivals on VHF Tower. I've seen DCA have a single controller doing Tower/Ground, but that was circa 2007 and late in the evening - after 10pm.

Perhaps I have missed something, working nights will do that...

I'm one bazillion percent for proper ATC staffing (my controller friends have been complaining of understaffing for years now) but in this specific circumstance I don't see how combining Victor and Uniform Tower controller positions contributed to the accident.
 
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#189
BoilerUP said:
If the helicopter was actually on Route 4 (laterally and/or vertically), the accident never happens.

If the helicopter actually sees and maintains visual separation from the CR7, the accident never happens.

Again, these are normal DCA Vis 1 Circle 33 RJ ops that have happened for decades...why an accident now? Because the helo was where they never should have been and didn't maintain the separation they said they would not once but twice.

My critique for the Army EP who (seemingly) allowed a 50% bust on route altitude around inbound civilian airliner traffic without saying anything is for another day.
Click to expand...
“Pass behind CJ” means fly the aircraft, not stay on the route laterally. We’ve already acknowledged the vertical error as a major contributing factor. I also explained why it likely occurred.

Asking “do you have traffic in sight?” more times doesn’t increase its effectiveness…they’re STILL looking at the wrong traffic. The controller’s intuition was telling him that very thing, hence asking again. Instead of more comm burden, I’d suggest better would’ve been “Your interval is at YOUR LEFT 11 O’CLOCK, 1/2 mile”, which would immediately inform the helo crew they’re looking at the wrong aircraft. Even better, “TURN LEFT 160 IMMEDIATELY, TRAFFIC 11 O’CLOCK, 1/2 MILE.” Yes, this isn’t REQUIRED as sole responsibility was granted (by helo request to avoid delay to their flight) to the helo, but that doesn’t mean ATC no longer has the ability (with the only God’s eye view) to help.

Again, asking for / granting visual sep in busy airspace AT NIGHT is retarded. There’s a reason it was accepted as normal.

Edit: clock typo
 
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#190
BoilerUP said:
I haven't seen any reports that there was just one person in the tower cab (ie. one controller working combined Tower and Ground), only that there is "normally" a controller operating the helos on UHF Tower, while a different controller works DCA arrivals on VHF Tower. I've seen DCA have a single controller doing Tower/Ground, but that was circa 2007 and late in the evening - after 10pm.

Perhaps I have missed something, working nights will do that...

I'm one bazillion percent for proper ATC staffing (my controller friends have been complaining of understaffing for years now) but in this specific circumstance I don't see how combining Victor and Uniform Tower controller positions contributed to the accident.
Click to expand...

The FAA said there was only 1 that was controlling both. There should have been one on the A/C tower freq and one on the Helo tower freq, but there was not, it was 1 person controlling both. Im not talking about combined ground and tower, I dont think they do that at DCA, but maybe after midnight occasionally when they stay open after curfew.

If you have 1 tower controller controlling both once they hear the "traffic insight" call then they are going back to looking down the final of 1 and they arent really watching the circle to 33 or the helo coming north to south thats "assumed" to be in the corridor(which it may or may not actually HAVE been). If you had a controller for each they are able to focus more on their specific area's where they know they have traffic.
 
#191
BoilerUP said:
I haven't seen any reports that there was just one person in the tower cab (ie. one controller working combined Tower and Ground), only that there is "normally" a controller operating the helos on UHF Tower, while a different controller works DCA arrivals on VHF Tower. I've seen DCA have a single controller doing Tower/Ground, but that was circa 2007 and late in the evening - after 10pm.

Perhaps I have missed something, working nights will do that...

I'm one bazillion percent for proper ATC staffing (my controller friends have been complaining of understaffing for years now) but in this specific circumstance I don't see how combining Victor and Uniform Tower controller positions contributed to the accident.
Click to expand...
it might not have made a difference but it does appear to be true.


A supervisor at the Reagan National Airport tower reportedly let an air traffic controller leave early from his shift shortly before Wednesday night’s deadly collision over the Potomac River.

As a result, a single controller was monitoring both the airplanes and the helicopters flying in the area, a source familiar with the investigation told NBC News.

One controller is typically in charge of helicopters while another watches over airplanes. The FAA said Thursday that one air traffic controller was doing the job of two people at the time of the devastating crash
Click to expand...
 
#195
Pbgt said:
Wondering from someone who knows...if the aircraft missed the helo 100 ft above. at the speeds they were flying, what if anything would happen to controlling the helo?
Click to expand...

maybe a little wake turbulence. CRJ doesnt put out to much wake though. And crossing 90 degrees(roughly) is much less crazy shit that following somebodies wake. I've had to offset at altitude following a heavy UPS MD11 2000ft above us.
 
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#196
rjacobs said:
The FAA said there was only 1 that was controlling both. There should have been one on the A/C tower freq and one on the Helo tower freq, but there was not, it was 1 person controlling both. Im not talking about combined ground and tower, I dont think they do that at DCA, but maybe after midnight occasionally when they stay open after curfew.

If you have 1 tower controller controlling both once they hear the "traffic insight" call then they are going back to looking down the final of 1 and they arent really watching the circle to 33 or the helo coming north to south thats "assumed" to be in the corridor(which it may or may not actually HAVE been). If you had a controller for each they are able to focus more on their specific area's where they know they have traffic.
Click to expand...

If there was only one traffic controller on duty that night for all towers that’s insanity.
 
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#197
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#199
Is this a close call, of the same type of event at the same place, 24 hours before?

Starting at 3:30 with a plane going around. Later when asked why they decided to go around, the pilot said they had a tcas RA with a helicopter.

 
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#200
BCP said:
Eh I usually fly Southwest. Planes falling apart. Stewardess is 60 years old. Pilot running up and down the aisle with googly eye glasses and a tie that lights up. If I look into the cockpit I can see instrument panels with wires sticking out. One of the engines has the cowling off and they're banging on it with wrenches.
Click to expand...
Didn’t they start a policy where fat asses could board first and take 2 seats if necessary as long as they paid for priority boarding?
🤣🤣🤣🤦‍♂️
 
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