Pledge of Allegiance at the start of the school day/National Anthem before sporting events, what say you?

We did both ( Pledge and prayer) when I was a kid. Government and schools should never have stopped doing it.

I dont really attend events where the anthem is played or even watch them, but when I did, I'd arrive 5 minutes late to avoid it. Not because Im unpatriotic, but because Im not going to an event to feel patriotic! I dont understand where the connection came from regarding anthem and sports, but always thought it was dumb!

Both of my daughters, now 19 and 17 still did the pledge of allegiance in grade school. I have yet to attend a home soccer match (Centennial HS in MN) for my youngest in which the National Anthem is not played before kickoff. I think that the Anthem will get played increasing more. I doubt that the pledge of allegiance will gain a ton of traction bigger picture.

LuckyDuck said:

In another thread (one that I'd prefer not to take away from, a side conversation had broken out between @lash & myself having differing opinions.

I'm trying to remain neutral on the topic but to voice my opinions on the matter- I find the Pledge of Allegiance to have socialist roots and find it to be more of a nonsensical practice that's spanned decades without being given proper scrutiny and anytime it's being questioned it was met with undue scrutiny and 'unpatriotic' accusations.

I doubled down and said that I didn't feel that the playing of our National Anthem had a place in any sporting events (specifically calling out Hockey and Soccer as not even having US roots). I further went on to say that I found both of these to be acts of 'false patriotism' (just what I called it) and that it holds no merit outside of the belief that how we "do it here" and ignores the actual background of either the Pledge of Allegiance being stated in schools or the National Anthem being played before sports (whether it be midget football or the NFL).

What's the Hide's thoughts on this?

If one is "pro" national anthem- another point I raised and would like to hear explained in this thread is why do we expect folks to not only play along with a public display of nationalism during the anthem, but why is it that we incorporate the physical removal of hats/headgear as part of that display? And also- do we "really" believe that to be equally important to demonstrating the proper 'reverence' to the National Anthem at least?

We don't expect women to remove formal hats, we've made allowances for practicing jews to keep their kippah on, we don't expect Americans that are Muslims to remove their hijab's or Sikhs to remove their turbans but it'd be argued that someone wearing a "God Bless the USA" baseball cap to have created a publicly unforgivable mistake to wear that hat during the playing of the National Anthem (even during a grade school/midget football game) and that's the only American we tend to take issue with (for reasons I guess?). What's different with the "God Bless the USA" hat wearer and what does the other exemptions have to do with being allowed on durning public displays of patriotism at events that have very little if anything to do with the USA?

Or... is it as George Carlin once argued (and I agree with)- is it simply some nonsense we just ultimately made up and have gone along with/argued against for decades/generations?

I can't speak for anyone, especially for @lash but I find these behaviors to be nothing more than nonsense carried over year after year and having nothing merit wise that they're often accredited as holding.

I'd go even further- I think we need to break these "sacred cows" down to what they are- just nonsense that was made up (and recently in our history for that matter) and move past that so we can address the more important things concerning our country/what I'd argue as being 'true' patriotism.

So what says the Hide?

-LD

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George was a Comedian and while he did have some good points and was funny as hell, I don't think his stand up act, rememeber it is an act, is the golden standard by which I would live my life.

I personally find the National Anthem being sung/performed at the beginning of competitive events a source of pride and unity for all US citizens and a celebration of this great nation with all of its ups, downs and flaws. Yet here we are still standing together rejoicing in singing. Remember the source of the song, it was written as those limey bastards were bombarding Fort Mc Henery and the beauty of our flag still flapping in the breeze. It is sung as a reminder of that patriotism and a real understanding that what was sacrificed so we can be here today. Stop your bitching and show some god damn respect! stand up and remove you hat or fuck right on off.

The pledge I see as something else, I personally don't see it needed at a sporting event.

Yes to both. Just as it has been for decades, and if people get their feelings hurt...sucks to be them...Please, pack-up and leave. Mac

I see the National Anthem as a way to remind all in attendance that there is a bigger force that unites everyone even though there are rivalries between teams.

I'll back up and rephrase my statement. POA at schools. NA at sporting events.
Was trying to multi-task, and I guess I'm no good at it.
Mac

LuckyDuck said:

Yes to both... before I put my foot in my mouth here- are you saying we should continue to have the pledge of allegiance AND National Anthem before all sporting events AND if you feel otherwise you should leave the USA?

Not a personal challenge either- just making sure I understand your comment before I respond further is all.

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Bullfrog08 said:

I dont really attend events where the anthem is played or even watch them, but when I did, I'd arrive 5 minutes late to avoid it. Not because Im unpatriotic, but because Im not going to an event to feel patriotic! I dont understand where the connection came from regarding anthem and sports, but always thought it was dumb!

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Found the commie

Oh Man... what a "Pandora's Box" throughout my life.

In K-5 we did it all. Pledge, Natl Anthem (at school assemblies along with the "school song"). In Kindergarten, our teacher also read Bible verses. Hmmmmm. How Ironic that in hindsight, we were able to discover that both my Kindergarten teacher and my 3rd grade teacher were actually the first "closeted" LGBTQ couple we encountered. Very closeted, back then.

In Junior high and mostly "public" HS, we still had to do the Pledge, in "homeroom," where official attendance was taken for State records (and school announcements given, etc.). And not necessarily the first period in the morning (for those who had free periods in the morning and did not have to show up first thing). The Pledge actually caused a bit of controversy. A certain ethnicity (I won't name them deliberately) objected to the Pledge. I guess their logic being, "Our highest loyalty is not to this country (USA) but to the one wherein we have a 'right to return'." The school instructed the teachers that reciting the Pledge (with hand over Heart) was not mandatory but, as a matter of courtesy and respect, everyone must stand at attention, if not "salute" the flag. The "protest" students objected even to that and refused to stand. I recall our homeroom teacher wanted to have them suspended for disobedience, but the students actually had a bunch of lawyers (via their parents) to back them up. IIRC, the School backed down and let the "protest students" stay seated. Think these days of people "taking a knee" for the Natl. Anthem.

When I transferred to the private HS for Junior and Senior year, they didn't do any thing like pledges or any of that, even with the assemblies (which the Headmaster did one every Friday). As an independent day school, they wanted no involvement in those sorts of "demonstrations of loyalty to Country, etc."

Today, I can see doing the Pledge for Elementary Schools (just so the kids learn it), or something like "obtaining US Citizenship" etc. I do, however, favor the Natl. Anthem at sports events as it is, currently. And, when it's done at these events, it should be done in "standard hymn;-like" fashion. I can't stand what some of these "soul singers" do to the Natl. Anthem when invited to sing it. Don't get me wrong, I don't oppose soul singers or their singing. I just don't think that the Natl. Anthem should be one of the songs that is 'soulized," as I call it. Sing it straight and dumpy, like it was written. If you can't do that, then don't sing it.

Simple as that.

LuckyDuck said:

I hear you (I really do),

Just as a counter argument (and a respectful one) when it comes to George Carlin and comedians in general, the greats are able to pick out these parts of human nature and be able to bring them into light in a relatable (and per their profession) humorous manner.

Moving on- I'm not attacking the National Anthem as being anything other than it is. It's just that I don't find it holding any merit to a little league game anymore than an MLB game.

If you think otherwise- I respect that and your opinion even if it differs from mine here. I'd love to hear an example of where that national pride presently occurs but that's more for my own reasons than it is challenging your personal opinion.

That said- I will give you a kind challenge as to explaining why one needs to remove their hat & place it over their heart to be respectful in the public display of national pride & unity that is the National Anthem (not trying to be snarky either, just responding to your comment). Do you agree with my previous post of what is expected to be removed and what is for whatever reason "exempted" by the participation in the national anthem?

Again- I'm not trying to fight with you, just making conversation and defending why I (personally) find this all to be nonsensical is all.

-LD

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I enjoy a little debate and sharing of opinions, all good.

Removing ones hat and standing is a cultural sign of respect and solidarity. Things like this are what make us one as a society. More on that later.

Carlin was a funny mother fucker. And yes comedians do have a "way" of looking at things. And make fun of different aspects of society. I can laugh at them, even though it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with them. For instance Bill Hicks does his bit on the Kennedy assassination where he talks about back and to the left, hinting there was another shooter and the round that killed him came from the front, something I 100% disagree with but laugh at the bit. Especially the new presidents being shown a camera angle of the assasination from a never before seen angle... any way... I find the bit funny, entertaining but don't agree its true.



For instance anyone familiar with the Bellamy Salute? Looks identical to the Hail Hitler one arm out thing and its how US citizens would salute the flag during the pledge of allegiance. But after Nazi Germany adopted it as their hitler thing, it was changed because we didn't want to be associated with a bunch of fucking Nazi's. Proof these signs of respect can and do change with time. Just wanted to shoot that out there as an example.

The reason for the pledge of allegiance is to remind us of the responsibility we have along with the freedoms we have.

Removing the hat during that and the National Anthem is a sign of respect. So, I think, women and jews and muslims and rednecks with ball caps should all remove their headgear for these observances. What about jews who have served in the military? First thing at induction is they shave your head. And it stays that way a long, long time.

Does that make us a dictatorship?

If active duty, salute. When I was a boy scout and a sea explorer, I saluted with our salutes. Outside of that, right hand over the heart if physically able to do so.

I realize that these were not always part of what we do as a nation. In fact, the phrase "under God" was not in there until 1954. That doesn't mean it it is wrong to add it. Like the amendments. Especially the Bill of Rights. These are rights endowed to us by the Creator but adding mention of them was kind of an afterthought. An "Oh yeah, by the way..."

I never once, even during the highest points of protest in the 60s and 70s ever heard anyone bemoan having the NA at ball games.

I can almost guarantee everyone here will sing the last part, "for the land of the free and the home of the brave.


"Play ball!"

I never served in the military, one of my greatest regrets. I was a medical disqualification. But I am allowed the freedom kept safe for me by those who have served to view with disheartenment upon those who do not display respect. As in, I defend your right to speak your mind, even if I disagree with you and find your opinion doubtful, to say the least.

I say this knowing that many is the time where I believe we have been hoodwinked, such as 9/11, and even Ok City. But that does not mean that I stop believing in the idea of the USA. It just means we have a lot of work to do getting rid of the cancer within.

LuckyDuck said:

That being said- how did receipting the pledge of allegiance in school make our country better or our students grow into being better/more informed citizens? Or was it just a rouse/ something that became part of the grind and was done without a second thought?

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I am 46 and remember saying the pledge of allegiance every day in school. I thought deeply about what exactly it meant every time I said it. I took it to heart then and still do today. I don’t believe I am the only one…

LuckyDuck said:

I really enjoyed your response-

If you don't mind my asking- when was it that you were in school dealing with that? Not a personal attack (or one in the making) just as I said a data point of interest to me is all.

-LD

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Well, the "Public HS" years where we had the controversy would be the early to mid 70's.

It reminds us of who we are as a nation. It's part of our culture and tradition. It's manners and respect. It makes one think about how fortunate we are to be part of this country and how precious freedom and liberty can be.

WTF is wrong with that?

We did the Pledge all through elementary and middle school. My Sophomore year of high school was when the State stopped requiring it.

Pledge of Allegiance in k-12.

National Anthem on certain US Holidays.

Sporting event? No. Shut up and play ball.

Bullfrog08 said:

I dont really attend events where the anthem is played or even watch them, but when I did, I'd arrive 5 minutes late to avoid it. Not because Im unpatriotic, but because Im not going to an event to feel patriotic! I dont understand where the connection came from regarding anthem and sports, but always thought it was dumb!

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I take it you don't like a good rodeo? Ain't no seats left when you show up late either...

LuckyDuck said:

I'll start with the NA in sports- as I stated in another post that didn't become a 'thing' until our involvement in WWI (you & anyone else is more than welcome to challenge me on that remark). The POA also has troublesome origins (another post talked about how we went from an outstretched arm to one over the heart).

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It's even more complicated than that. If you were a "Cub" or "Boy" Scout, you didn't do the "hand over heart" but you did what I call the "Three finger salute" (i.e. the BSA loyalty salute). You would hold up your right hand with your thumb and pinky touching each other, It's what you did when you said the BSA pledge (i.e. "On my Honor, I will do my best, to do my duty to God and My Country.... etc. etc."). But some scouts felt they could use that with the POA as well. At least, in school

LuckyDuck said:

With removing the hat- can we really say that's a "hard & fast" rule or is what I posted at the beginning of this thread accurate in that all the other head coverings I shared being an acceptable exclusion to this rule while the hats that convey messages of "I love the USA" considered disrespectful if worn during the playing of the NA?

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Well, let's put it this way. During the Munich Olympics in 72, Dave Wottle, a track star, won a gold medal in I think the 800m. In the confusion of the medal platform ceremony, he forgot to remove his running ball cap and kept it on during the NA. The crap he took for that, afterwards, from the media, etc., even if it was clear that he had his hand over his Heart. Then again, this was just after the whole Vince Mathews and Wayne Collette controversy. I actually recall watching that live. So, the media was on the alert for things like that.

One could make the same argument as to why Military or LE/Uniform types are allowed to "Salute" during the NA vs. the rest of us having to do one hand over the heart. Half the time POTUS himself Salutes and half the time he does "hand over heart." Perhaps, he salutes when he perceives himself actively as CIC rather than in other Presidential roles.

Frankly, I don't understand why we all can't salute. I think it shows much more respect to learn how to do a proper salute.

LuckyDuck said:

In another thread (one that I'd prefer not to take away from, a side conversation had broken out between @lash & myself having differing opinions.

I'm trying to remain neutral on the topic but to voice my opinions on the matter- I find the Pledge of Allegiance to have socialist roots and find it to be more of a nonsensical practice that's spanned decades without being given proper scrutiny and anytime it's being questioned it was met with undue scrutiny and 'unpatriotic' accusations.

I doubled down and said that I didn't feel that the playing of our National Anthem had a place in any sporting events (specifically calling out Hockey and Soccer as not even having US roots). I further went on to say that I found both of these to be acts of 'false patriotism' (just what I called it) and that it holds no merit outside of the belief that how we "do it here" and ignores the actual background of either the Pledge of Allegiance being stated in schools or the National Anthem being played before sports (whether it be midget football or the NFL).

What's the Hide's thoughts on this?

If one is "pro" national anthem- another point I raised and would like to hear explained in this thread is why do we expect folks to not only play along with a public display of nationalism during the anthem, but why is it that we incorporate the physical removal of hats/headgear as part of that display? And also- do we "really" believe that to be equally important to demonstrating the proper 'reverence' to the National Anthem at least?

We don't expect women to remove formal hats, we've made allowances for practicing jews to keep their kippah on, we don't expect Americans that are Muslims to remove their hijab's or Sikhs to remove their turbans but it'd be argued that someone wearing a "God Bless the USA" baseball cap to have created a publicly unforgivable mistake to wear that hat during the playing of the National Anthem (even during a grade school/midget football game) and that's the only American we tend to take issue with (for reasons I guess?). What's different with the "God Bless the USA" hat wearer and what does the other exemptions have to do with being allowed on durning public displays of patriotism at events that have very little if anything to do with the USA?

Or... is it as George Carlin once argued (and I agree with)- is it simply some nonsense we just ultimately made up and have gone along with/argued against for decades/generations?

I can't speak for anyone, especially for @lash but I find these behaviors to be nothing more than nonsense carried over year after year and having nothing merit wise that they're often accredited as holding.

I'd go even further- I think we need to break these "sacred cows" down to what they are- just nonsense that was made up (and recently in our history for that matter) and move past that so we can address the more important things concerning our country/what I'd argue as being 'true' patriotism.

So what says the Hide?

-LD

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In my view, the reason why people with your view exist is because they either havent learned the rationale behind why/how our country began...or cannot, or worse will not grasp the actual history of our nation.

Since we've been catering to outside groups and minorities (like all those you mentioned) we have allowed our American culture and Christian values to be diluted. We absolutely 100% WERE NOT founded on "judeo-Christian" values. Jews lied through their teeth to get Jesus crucified, and then continued to hunt down his followers. There are jewish values, and there are Christian values. Wherever Christianity has succeeded in a nation, judaism has always found a way to do everything possible to be cancerous in that nation. One only needs to take a very hard, and uncomfortable look at our own country's decline since we "won" WWII by making a deal with the devil (communists) and saved these "God's chosen people" from certain annihilation.

The founders of our great nation were readers of the Geneva Bible and works like "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine reiterated the pitfalls of the mistakes Israelites made when they went against God and started worshipping kings.

Our founding fathers wanted to have a nation founded on, and guided by, Christian values. They succeeded and that country became the shining light drawing others from the darkness of their bullshit kingdoms.


Like Patton said in the aftermath of WWII...

"We fought the wrong enemy..."

Tagging in @Bender as he can likely expand on what I typed with just a couple memes.

LuckyDuck said:

First off- I still think you have the best hairline in the Pit (no homo).

Secondly- I'd first say that I often respect your comments/insight but in this case you're just a bit off with your initial remark about me personally (but only just a bit).

With that all out of the way @clcustom1911 - as usual I enjoyed reading your post (Bender is still a chode though).

Christians, Jews, and whatever else aside- all I'm trying to discuss here (although the simple question is much deeper for those in the know) is whether the Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of school each day or the playing of the National Anthem before sporting events (along with what I consider ridiculous and made up nonsense of how to listen 'properly') makes any sense when scrutinized.

How's the bike treating you though (honest question since haven't seen any recent pictures myself but that may be due to the weather)?

-LD

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Long/short of it:

I wasn't referring to you specifically as I think you're an articulate guy, moreso than myself.
Overall, think it's very important to say the Pledge/Anthem for national unity. However it lost it's meaning to many as time/generations passed because we stopped instilling the *reasons why we say it*. One extremely apparent thing my self-directed reading of US/European history this past 10-15 years has exposed is the fact my history "education" in school was a fucking joke.


Reich Bike, Frau Blücher, has been back in the States since the beginning of October. She entered her cocoon as a G650GS and will likely emerge as a R1250GS My hair and I look forward to riding again in May after I get done with this stint somewhere in Africa.

Germany declared war on the United States. We didn’t enter into the war to “ save the jews”.

The Germans did a decent job of keeping the holocaust under wraps. And wasn’t more towards the end of the war that shit was uncovered.

Germany declared war on us because we declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbor and Japan and Germany had a defensive pact. It had absolutely zero to do with saving jews…

LuckyDuck said:

I'm not arguing that's how you feel with regards to reminding us who we are as a nation, our culture & traditions. But I will argue that what we're discussing is why the NA exists and if we can agree on that much I'm 100% on your boat with what you stated.


I am however challenging the "why" it belongs in sports (baseball, football, soccer, hockey, track, lacrosse, etc). I am challenging why we have the rituals we do on what makes doing the National Anthem "right" (hence my pointing out the inconsistency with hats/head covering rules).

And that's really the crux of what I'm stating here. I've got nothing against the National Anthem or the Pledge of Allegiance for that matter, but I do take issue with it being forced upon people in situations that have very little (if anything to do) with national pride. I also take umbrage (a term I don't get to use often enough) when challenging these golden calfs/sacred cows becomes offensive because we've fallen into a rut and have accepted that this is "just what we do".

I've pointed out that one of Jewish faith is exempt from the 'hat rule' in wearing their kippah during the national anthem and that isn't being challenged. I've pointed out that a hijab can literally have "fuck America" etched into it and that's acceptable on a broad sense and even here hasn't been challenged. I've given an example of someone wearing a trucker hat saying "I love America" and that has at least twice been pointed out as an example of hats that needs to be removed and held over their heart during the playing of the National Anthem. Am I the only one that finds this groupthink to be inconsistent?

ETA: I went off on a bit of a tangent while replying to you (of which I apologize for) but when you ask 'WTF is wrong with that', I just am not seeing any examples, arguments, or even contrary opinions defending the position that we should keep doing what we've been doing other than how it makes some of us 'feel'. I don't think I'm being rude with this group by pointing out that if we weren't talking about the POA/NA, most/if not all here would argue against that as being a worthwhile position & likely would throw some colorful accusations on that topic with regards to a certain political party & their medicated/unmedicated supporters. Yet here we're having similar discussions and there's a lack of support of what I'm saying (because it's me & an unpopular opinion) and the few folks willing to speak in opposition are also not being supported (even here in the Bear Pit because most folks know that the contrary opinion isn't a strong position either).

The question is, does this post break the Bear Pit? I suspect we've got nowhere to go other than the discussion being usurped with dildos, rainbows, and unicorns (mark my words, just by mentioning that it'll appear and I bet I can even write down 3 names that'd be the ringleaders there).

I haven't attacked anyone's opinion/beliefs in this thread. I've respectfully challenged a few points but arguing FOR the NA being played before all sports and the POA being a part of the school day just strikes me as the same as arguing why DEI is a good idea.

-LD

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I gave you some good reasons as to why do it. You are absolutely right and free to question why. If you cannot see a good reason to participate, well, that's on you. You can decide on your own, I don't care that much that you, as an individual, have come to that decision. However when our society as a whole decides to not participate in "patriotic symbolism" we are not who we were and we won't care much for what we may become, because we lose the sense of "we". Instead it's more about "me."

GreenGO Juan said:

Germany declared war on the United States. We didn’t enter into the war to “ save the jews”.

The Germans did a decent job of keeping the holocaust under wraps. And wasn’t more towards the end of the war that shit was uncovered.

Germany declared war on us because we declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbor and Japan and Germany had a defensive pact. It had absolutely zero to do with saving jews…

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It's even deeper than that. Japan and Germany had (and still have) a stronger relationship in general with each other, not just a Military or Defensive relationship. They were industrial partners (with the British a close second, which is why they drive on the left in Japan). A good portion of Japanese (especially scientists and engineers) speak German, for all the Scientific/engineering Texts/resources, etc. that are available. They also take more work/business assignments in Germany, than other countries, except the USA.

I know. I used to work for a Japanese company in the USA.

LuckyDuck said:

We're about the same age then & I'm good with your comment/position. Just would respectfully challenge you to ask you to push past how you "feel" about it and ask you for examples of "why" the practice holds merit and examples of such. I'm being intentionally vague in what I'm asking for (let's all agree it becomes obnoxious when a post results in challenge after challenge of stupid specific examples).

Not arguing with you at all, your experiences, beliefs, & opinions are yours and yours alone- I'm only asking for an argument to be made with an example (of which I'm pretty flexible of what's said) with "why" it holds merit and is anything more than a proverbial motion that we keep going through is all.

-LD

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LD,
First I am not taking anything you have said as argumentative, anti American, or any of that BS.

What I am about to say may come across as passive aggressive or something, but I don’t mean it that way. I believe in freedom, true freedom. What that means to me isn’t my right to live / believe however I want, but rather my oath to defend someone else’s right to live / believe however they want even if I disagree with it (up to the point where they impede on or do harm to others).

That being said if I truly believe that why would your beliefs or thoughts on this subject offend me, same as someone not standing, removing their hat, participating in the Pledge of Allegiance / National Anthem / prayer etc. That is their right and I will defend that to my death if necessary. I believe that is what this country is founded on. I believe the Pledge is an opportunity for people to participate in it, it should never be a requirement. I cherish every chance I get to participate in it. I get fairly emotional every time I hear the Star Spangled Banner (internally, as best as I can keep it that way) because I know what I have in this country and think I have an idea of what so many people have given for me to have this freedom.

I mentioned in my first post about how I remember at a very young age saying the Pledge in school and thinking about what it really means. Those times were the catalyst & foundation for my feelings about this country, they inspired me to seek out the history of my country. I have been researching the reasons this country was formed from a very young age and the selflessness of those men and women who came before me and gave everything for an idea of this thing called freedom, and those who followed them to hopefully maintain it for future generations to have, for me to have. It was never a guarantee for them, they had no way of knowing if their sacrifices were in vein or not, but they believe so strongly that it didn’t matter. I felt at a very young age that the only way I could enjoy what they have created was to earn it myself, I wanted so desperately to contribute to the idea of freedom.

To me the Pledge of Allegiance is an opportunity to restate to the world and myself how deeply I care about freedom. I believe this is the USA is the most free country in the world, and the National Anthem is the story of how it came to be.

This country isn’t perfect but that is on us the people to fix. I think we all need a little reminder often to pull out heads up from the daily grind and remember what is giving us the ability to live how we choose to live.

I love my country. Thank you LD for asking / bringing this up. It is an important discussion, more so these days than other times in history. Our country is too divided right now, we all have to work to fix that.

Those are my thoughts on this subject…

Meaningless - drop it…
The pledge was written up by a salesman to sell more flags. The original wasn’t even about the US specifically but a one size fits all. Under god was added decades later. It’s got no ties to our history other than a long standing tradition of schemes to sell stuff. Sporting event are games - for fun - so don’t see the tie in and I get tired of seeing drunk retreads in the stands more worried about someone with a hat on than anything else. Anthem - great song but I’m watching a GAME so it’s got nothing to do with it - don’t care.

Why stop at the National Anthem or Pledge of Allegiance?

What we need to do is implement the entire Terran Federation playbook from “Starship Troopers” by Robert Heiein.

-Stan

P.S. The best part is you don’t know if I am joking or not.

Chiefs-Eagles
Christian-Muslim.
USA-Russia
Ford-Chevy.
Redheads-Blondes
Trump-Biden

It's all the same, people being tribal, people having opinions of what is correct. If you want to put Chevy stickers on your truck, USA flags on you back window, or fishes on you bumper. Good for you! It means nothing in the end, just that you subscribed to a tribe. Hell, some of you maybe even killed, beat, or injured others in the name of your tribe. I'm sure your tribe was the correct one and you will end up in Heaven becuse you picked the right tribe!! Seems silly to me. If the anthem, MAGA hat, Biden hat, Chiefs hat, Eagles hate, Blonde wife, redhead wife, makes you feel more dedicated to your tribe, then DO IT! I just don't understand the connection of the national anthem to sports????? I guess if one never attends sporting events, they must not truly understand the ties to their tribe?

It's always weird to me no matter who the "good" guys are, there are always "bad" guys willing to fight for the "Bad" team! I've watched enough movies to know who the bad guys........The dead ones at the end!

For State events, even routine- YES, Pledge of Allegiance every single day to kick it off. Even better if once a year on the first day of Public School it is explained to the students very clearly that they are participating in a State program to become educated, and their Teachers are performing an act of service. Same for Courts, large official meetings, etc.

For Private events, it's up to whoever is holding the event what you say or what you sing.

That's the pledge... but praying at State events- even the most unitarian-type stuff- is prohibited. The Framers were wise to set things up this way.

kalashnikev said:

For State events, even routine- YES, Pledge of Allegiance every single day to kick it off. Even better if once a year on the first day of Public School it is explained to the students very clearly that they are participating in a State program to become educated, and their Teachers are performing an act of service. Same for Courts, large official meetings, etc.

For Private events, it's up to whoever is holding the event what you say or what you sing.

That's the pledge... but praying at State events- even the most unitarian-type stuff- is prohibited. The Framers were wise to set things up this way.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I forgot that the Pledge is also done at the beginning of some govt. meetings like city/town counsels, etc.

Fx51LP308 said:

Yeah, I forgot that the Pledge is also done at the beginning of some govt. meetings like city/town counsels, etc.

Click to expand...

...should be at the commencement of any State event/ function/ proceedings.

If it isn't then somebody is messing up. Probably a traitor.

"Diversity" is a side effect of liberty. A country that provides liberty (and therefore abundance) to it's people is going to be attractive to almost all human beings. They are going to seek it out in a world full of totalitarianism and misery. But, it is NOT a virtue. It is a neutral term that describes variegation rather than homogenization. It can be poisonous to a body politic when not under control, and not allowed to meld into the body politic taking it's strengths and letting it's weaknesses wither. This was also Greece's, Rome's, and even the Mongol's secret strengths to their empires. They appropriated other cultures while imposing their own. They were willing to change as they changed the cultures they conquered. This is what it means to be a dynamic culture and not a static one that dies. The first 200 years of our country this "melting pot" philosophy made us into a super power. To reject it is to invite decay. All of us are immigrants, but we are all Americans, and THAT is what we should all be celebrating. If you don't think what unifies us should be celebrated whenever we come together, then fuck you and get the fuck out of MY country, because it obviously isn't yours and you don't understand what it is or why it should be celebrated.

"Unity" is a critical component and a virtue when discussing the body politic. This country has proven that you can both have diversity and unity, but holding up diversity as some goal to achieve over unity, and especially over the liberty that causes diversity, is a fatal mistake. It will end this country if allowed to metastasize and create permanent social discord. The inoculation against that is unity, and a free culture that is not guided by elites, but by the body politic. This is a durability in Republics that rivals the stability of monarchies through the democratic process, but this durability can be eliminated when elites are allowed to steer the culture towards disunity and moral strife vis a vis pretending "diversity" is some virtue and goal to reach towards.

Making every school child stand, sing the Iraq national anthem, and swear loyalty to Sadam Hussein is not the same thing as pledging allegiance to a document and a set of ideals, or singing a song about winning our liberty from the superpower of the late 1700s. Making comparisons to loyalty pledges or anthems across history is erroneous, because we are the originators of pledging to ideas, and ideals, and a system of government that places the body politic over the elites and rulers.

When I wore a uniform and the call to colors would go out people would scatter and race to get inside so they didn't have to stand there and salute. I would hear it and go outside and get as close to that flagpole as I could every single time. When people would ask me why I would tell them simply that it was a privilege to salute that flag that wasn't afforded to civilians or even veterans (at that time), and I wasn't going to waste a single opportunity since I would have the rest of my life to put my hand over my heart.

If that flag, which stands for our ideals, and that pledge, which is a recitation of our devotion to liberty and limited government, is not worth unifying around, promoting publicly, and indoctrinating our children into our unique philosophy and our way of life, then this nation will not endure, because THAT, and highlighting how we are all the same and will unify around that which binds us, is the only thing holding us together against sectarian violence and tribalism, which is basically all the left pushes thinly disguised as "diversity" being some kind of virtue.

I am completely against flag burning laws for a variety of very solid reasons, and certainly standing for the Anthem and saying the pledge is, of course, voluntary, but if we don't push for these small displays of unity and common purpose, then we definitely aren't going to come together when it counts. And to believe otherwise is just ignorance.